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[grumble]

Lots of anecdotal evidence in this thread.

Healthcare in the US is fucked. Should be public.

There are issues though! In Ontario, there are several hundred thousand non-residents who have OHIP. There are a few common tricks:

1. Bring over grandmother. Have her claim refugee status (immediate OHIP card!). Have anything you want done, done. She can now go back home, until her next major (and very expensive!) operation.

2. Bring over ill relatives to stay just for OHIP, which isn't too hard under family reunification plans. OHIP!

3. Lie about your residency. Declare residency. OHIP!

4. Bring in fake or stolen OHIP card. Get procedure done. Check yourself out. OHIP!

Honestly if we just purged the system of parasites we'd save so much money the provincial deficit would disappear.

 

[mavs]

"Oh you have a lump on your testicle? You can come get it checked out at the end of April/mid-May"

BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD AM I RIGHT?

Clearly your provider has bad service and will go out of business soon. As an American you have a choice of providers that people in single payer countries don't have

Spoiler

(where the fuck does that myth come from?? do people who say that have jobs?)

and since the free market provides the best services obviously good health care is available everywhere

Spoiler

even though nobody seems to have it

.

 

[ronito]

I'm not an economist, but the main issue I see with a for-profit healthcare system is that there is no incentive for preventative approaches, because there is money to be made off of expensive scans, procedures and practices. That, and there doesn't seem to be any force moderating the cost of healthcare.

How do the "free market makes everything cheaper and better" types explain the US healthcare system and it's immense cost and waste?

I've told this story before but it's exactly what you're talking about.

I'm a solution architect for my company, meaning I get paid to think up/implement systems.

At a conference I once met a medical executive and was like "What if I could get you a unified billing/credit data model. Meaning that it didn't matter what insurance company you went with you wouldn't have to spend all this time redoing everything to their systems. Instead there'd be an agreed upon model that would allow you to bill any insurance system without any rework. All you have to do is point the data pipe to a different location. No extra development or analysis work."

The dude was like "That'd be amazing."

Then I said, "Now what if I did that same thing with patient data allowing a patient to take their complete record across practices and networks without having to do any development or analysis work?"

He was like, "Now don't get too hasty."

Here's the thing there's built in inefficiencies on all sides to make it painful for someone to move. It's painful for doctors to switch insurances and the insurance companies have a vested interested to keep it like that. Likewise health networks make it hard for patients to change networks and they also have a vested interest in doing so. That's where the single payer comes into it so well. "If you're going to practice and get paid you will abide by these data standards." That's a huge savings right there.

 

[BeEatNU]

If you actually die of old age the MRI must not have been particularly important, no? I would LOVE to die of old age before getting an MRI.

How long is the average wait for urgent MRIs where cancer is suspected, etc?

Edit: My sarcasm detector may be broken. (That's twice this week, I need to bring it in.)



Oh this one's easy to answer. We do.

:lol

 

[Trent Strong]

America: where having health insurance still guarantees you're getting fucked when the bills start rolling in.

I have had a ton of medical problems, and my insurance has never fucked me. What percentage of the population that has insurance do these horror stories actually represent?

Completely blows my mind that people are expected to pay these extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare. Having to pay up front for a goddamn 4 minute CT-scan?

Can't even imagine.

I don't pay extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare, or even for stuff like MRIs.

Because... Freedom! And Socialism is bad!

Basically we have a lot of older people who are really fucking scared of socialism, and we have a political party and media machine that pushes fear as a medium. Many people have been pushed to absolutely distrust anything from government to an unhealthy degree, and those who get anything from the government have been almost villainized and dehumanized. We have a culture that actively believes if you're successful you got there absolutely by yourself, and if you aren't there you did that by yourself. There's no thankfulness for the society and its structures around us. We're a pioneer spirit to an ignorant degree, and now it's coming around to bite us in the ass.

Most people have health insurance and the horror stories and hyperbole that are all over this thread don't apply to them. Of course, a lot of people don't have health insurance, and some people do get screwed over, and that's a tragedy. But The hyperbole in this thread is out of control.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Because they can charge that much, stupid!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...280-in-france/2011/08/25/gIQAVHztoR_blog.html



also, who pays $1,080 for an MRI? I got one about 4 years ago and it was an even $2,000. I can only imagine what it is now.

I payed $400 for one maybe 6 months ago before knee surgery. and that was a discount, cash price. I imagine it would have been much more if they could have charged my insurance.

 

[Slavik81]

280 is 280 too much

/canada

You didn't understand the article.

Insane wait times is the greatest myth about Canadian health care.

Everyone has some friend or distant relative that has had to wait some outrageous time for something one time on the internet though.

It's a little annoying to sit in the ER all day. I'm sure almost anyone has experienced that at least once.

 

[Randdalf]

I still honestly can't believe there are people who think universal health care is a bad thing, especially when it costs less (half as much according to that article) per person to even run it. It's really crazy, honestly.

 

[MjFrancis]

I actually worry about the subsidization.

I mean just look at what happened to education. Make it easy for people to borrow money for college suddenly college costs a ton more! It's like magic!

You don't even have to look at education. I mean look at the HD antenna dealio. Before the government got involved with the free market the basic antenna cost $25. Then the government started sending out $25 coupons to help subsidize the cost of the upgrade. Suddenly the price for a basic antenna was magically $50! After the program was over it was magically $25 again.

The issue is as long as you keep the free market involved they'll charge what they can. If the government gives you a subsidy for 2.5k it'll magically cost 3k more for insurance. Subsidies and changing who pays never works. You need to change the system. Issue is that when (if?) this fails people will say, "See? Government healthcare just doesn't work!" When really it's a mixing the two elements of free market and government that doesn't work.

This guy gets it! Rather than argue about this garbage on the internet, I bring this up when applicable in real life. I've used both your college and antenna examples. Any system in which the government pays subsidies to the insurance companies rather than replacing them altogether will result in cost overruns and ridiculous expenses. Although, rather than calling it the free market I'd use the term private business or something similar. The term free market makes no sense in many ways, not the least of which that health care isn't an optional endeavor on the part of the "customer" in many cases.

Unfortunately I feel I'm usually received like this guy when I explain this shit in real life:

 

[GaimeGuy]

I have had a ton of medical problems, and my insurance has never fucked me. What percentage of the population that has insurance do these horror stories actually represent?



I don't pay extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare, or even for stuff like MRIs.




Most people have health insurance and the horror stories and hyperbole that are all over this thread don't apply to them. Of course, a lot of people don't have health insurance, and some people do get screwed over, and that's a tragedy. But The hyperbole in this thread is out of control.

Nothing about my story from today has to do with health insurance.

 

[Dunlop]

All of the "YAY CANADA!" people are neglecting to mention that, while not having to pay for MRIs or visits to specialists or other such procedures, there's a very real risk of dying of old age while on the waiting list.

Seriously, it can take forever. Forever. No one ever seems to mention that part!

In quebec we have private clinics that will do many procedures, so you at least have the choice.

My buddy had to have MRI's 2 done and the total bill was $1000 for which his company insurance paid 75%

It's also a cultural thing. As a family man I love our "free" healthcare as heaven forbid something horrible happen to me or my wife, there is no scenerio where medial bills would cripple my kid's inheritance.
On the flip side i pay taxes through the ass, something that would not generally be well received in the US.

I remember a while back my son broke his arm, the same thing happened to one of my american customers kids. As we were exchanging stories he mentioned what a pain in the ass it was to be out $2500 right before x-mas...My son's treatment cost me $20 because I got him a fiberglass cast (plaster would have been free)

I don't get how anyone has money lying around for these incidents

 

[RDreamer]

I'm not an economist, but the main issue I see with a for-profit healthcare system is that there is no incentive for preventative approaches, because there is money to be made off of expensive scans, procedures and practices. That, and there doesn't seem to be any force moderating the cost of healthcare.

How do the "free market makes everything cheaper and better" types explain the US healthcare system and it's immense cost and waste?

The problem is that the free market works very different between something you would like to possibly have but could live without and something that you need to live. Shopping for health care options isn't like going into a McDonald's. When you're healthy the normal person doesn't really care so much about their health options. Well, I mean they do, but they don't in comparison.

It's incredibly hard to shop around and price things out. As I said, it isn't like a McDonald's where you can walk in and see a menu of prices. Hospitals don't work like that. And when you do need care usually you're kind of in a bind. You don't have time to shop around then, and a lot of times you certainly can't go without. Actually a lot of people do go without, and that ends up being very bad and costing the system and possibly the person more in the long term.

Basically, in my mind, a business's purpose in absolute, very simplistic terms is to make the most money they possibly can while doing the least work. That's pretty much every business's goal. I don't mean for that to sound like I think business is evil or anything of the sort. No, I don't. In a capitalistic society you have to accept the real purpose and goals of these systems, and that's what it is. That works in an overall sort of sense, but with health care it does not. I don't think I really need to explain why having a business whose purpose in absolute terms is to make the most amount of money doing the least amount of work in charge of your health is a bad thing, or at least not the best solution.

The other thing besides price that you normally would compare and contrast in market based products is quality. And that's where things fall apart and where I think you need government to step in. How exactly does a normal every-day citizen know quality of the health care they received? They can know some outside variables and might feel something is of high quality when they walk into a really fancy hospital or get good service from the nurses, but they don't know their actual surgery is being done to the best it can be for the price it can be. There's really just no way to do a real analysis of whether your money is being spent correctly, and so market capitalism completely falls apart in my opinion.

Most people have health insurance and the horror stories and hyperbole that are all over this thread don't apply to them. Of course, a lot of people don't have health insurance, and some people do get screwed over, and that's a tragedy. But The hyperbole in this thread is out of control.

But the reality that this thread is pointing out is that everyone is getting screwed over in at the least a minor sense. We're literally paying twice as much as almost every other civilized country that has UHC. Even if you're not dying in the street you're getting screwed.

 

[Tristam]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

Not true. South Koreans pay far lower taxes than Americans and yet still benefit from largely socialized (and completely universal) medical care.

 

[Funky Papa]

Anybody knows what's the price of a circumcision?

Genuine question.

 

[ronito]

Most people have health insurance and the horror stories and hyperbole that are all over this thread don't apply to them. Of course, a lot of people don't have health insurance, and some people do get screwed over, and that's a tragedy. But The hyperbole in this thread is out of control.

Really? Cause I'd think that in a country where >60% of all bankruptcies are healthcare related pointing out that healthcare is broken isn't hyperbole at all.

 

[empty vessel]

Not true. South Koreans pay far lower taxes than Americans and yet still benefit from largely socialized (and completely universal) medical care.

And for countries that issue their own currencies and run single payer programs or have nationalized programs (e.g., Canada or the UK), taxes don't really "pay" for the health care at all, although the government spending on health care does consume real economic resources and therefore have ramifications for what else the government can spend on.

 

[ronito]

Anybody knows what's the price of a circumcision?

Genuine question.

Pre or Post tip?

 

[LuffyZoro]

Price of the free market.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I have a chronic hereditary disease and I spend about a quarter of my total income on healthcare costs. Unless I can find a higher paying job soon I will likely be forced to declare bankruptcy in the near future.

So I proudly say fuck the healthcare industry in this country. I dream every day that some hero will come along and fuck the entire lot of them in the ass.

 

[Dunlop]

Anybody knows what's the price of a circumcision?

Genuine question.

lol, this is not actually covered by medicare in Canada unless it is medically necessary (then it is free)

Think it cost my buddy about $150 to have thr procedure done for his newbord. Just looked up the US price and it seems to be the same for a newborn. For an adult it seems to be $1500 - $2000

 

[Trent Strong]

Really? Cause I'd think that in a country where >60% of all bankruptcies are healthcare related pointing out that healthcare is broken isn't hyperbole at all.

I don't like our healthcare system one bit. It is broken. But a lot of the comments in this thread are hyperbolic, like "America: where having health insurance still guarantees you're getting fucked when the bills start rolling in." If you have health insurance you probalby won't get fucked, and you certainly aren't "guaranteed" to be fucked. Or "Completely blows my mind that people are expected to pay these extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare." If you have health insurance you probalby won't be paying "extreme" amounts. Two MRIs, an echocardiogram, and a nerve conduction study all togther cost me about $240. No one in America should be bankrupted by healthcare costs. Again, the system is broken. But what percentage of people in America actually are bankrupt?

 

[SyNapSe]

I think some people are going in two directions in this thread. The article isn't about Universal Health care or how it's better necessarily. The article is about how we're getting gouged in the US. Universal Health care would likely lead to our government dealing with this gouging though. The cost of health care in the US is one of the reasons that it's so difficult to imagine making a switch to Universal Health care.

The problem is that the free market works very different between something you would like to possibly have but could live without and something that you need to live. Shopping for health care options isn't like going into a McDonald's. When you're healthy the normal person doesn't really care so much about their health options. Well, I mean they do, but they don't in comparison.

It's incredibly hard to shop around and price things out. As I said, it isn't like a McDonald's where you can walk in and see a menu of prices. Hospitals don't work like that. And when you do need care usually you're kind of in a bind. You don't have time to shop around then, and a lot of times you certainly can't go without. Actually a lot of people do go without, and that ends up being very bad and costing the system and possibly the person more in the long term.

We don't really use the free market for purchasing health care in the US. We started using our "insurance" for every piece of our health care. When you look to get an oil change, you might go to Jiffy Lube because they have a coupon that makes it cheaper than Valvoline. When you need your yearly physical you don't ever consider how much your doctor charges. If you got a notice from your doctor each year that said a visit would go up from $100 to $115, you might take a look around but that's not how our system works.

The move to FSA's and HSA's seems like a move to get the cost back in front of the consumer. There are companies that help people easily find the best fee's for procedures in their area.

http://www.compassphs.com/

Granted, if you're shot you can't be picky. If your doctor requests an MRI, he'll probably mention some place close but most of the time they don't really care where you get it. If the prices meant more to people there would likely be easier web services to search for cheapest MRI's in your area. I mean hell there are sites that'll tell you which gas station you can save a penny a gallon at. Most of the time the cost is hidden behind a copay or whatever other function and people don't even consider it.

 

[empty vessel]

I don't like our healthcare system one bit. It is broken. But a lot of the comments in this thread are hyperbolic, like "America: where having health insurance still guarantees you're getting fucked when the bills start rolling in." If you have health insurance you probalby won't get fucked, and you certainly aren't "guaranteed" to be fucked.

Oh, you're still guaranteed to be fucked, it's just a slow fucking. You're still paying twice as much as you need to be. You're just doing it over time via premiums. And if you're healthy with health insurance, you're getting doubly fucked! And, of course, that insurance is still not a defense to financial ruin when real medical tragedy strikes. The majority of medical bankruptcies are filed by people who had insurance.

 

[BigDug13]

I don't like our healthcare system one bit. It is broken. But a lot of the comments in this thread are hyperbolic, like "America: where having health insurance still guarantees you're getting fucked when the bills start rolling in." If you have health insurance you probalby won't get fucked, and you certainly aren't "guaranteed" to be fucked. Or "Completely blows my mind that people are expected to pay these extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare." If you have health insurance you probalby won't be paying "extreme" amounts. Two MRIs, an echocardiogram, and a nerve conduction study all togther cost me about $240. No one in America should be bankrupted by healthcare costs. Again, the system is broken. But what percentage of people in America actually are bankrupt?

Those MRI's cost that much with insurance. May I ask how much per month you pay for that insurance?

You should really add that to the price.

Thank God I will have Tricare forever. Government run health program.

 

[Zoe]

The U.S. healthcare system is great until you turn 19. The CHIP program covers basically anyone making less than 50k a year. When I had it, my parents never had to pay a copay or a prescription deductible. I got totally fucked when I couldn't use it anymore. My dad's work said it would cost $400 a month to put me on his policy. I've been uninsured for the last year or so. This country has done a lot of great things, but the healthcare system is simply criminal.

Have you looked to see if your school has an insurance plan? (assuming you're in school)

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

allow student loans to be wiped out in bankruptcy. That'd lower the costs pretty quick

And have that blemish on your record? Good luck trying to find a job.

 

[Bollocks]

I think it's fair that Americans pay more, you already got your cheap gas prices.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

You didn't understand the article.



It's a little annoying to sit in the ER all day. I'm sure almost anyone has experienced that at least once.

Unless you're bleeding out, you sit in the ER for hours in the U.S., too.

 

[Bleepey]

When are the quasi-rightists going to go into this thread arguing that this doesn't matter because the U.S. has the best healthcare in the world and that we subsidize France's healthcare?

I was doing a health economics lecture today and we were discussing all of this shit. In-fact i am doing na essay on it now, one of the scenarios we were asked to think about was if the US, decided to peg how much they'd pay for drugs on how much places like the UK pay. some of the ideas we proposed it could lead to included the US being forced to buy in bulk, governments like the UK choosing cheaper alternatives and saying fuck you, these governments having their prices increased if the pharmaceutical companies left he UK market so they could charge what they liked in the US cos it would make more profit etc etc.

 

[Jimothy]

I think it's fair that Americans pay more, you already got your cheap gas prices.

At least you guys have the option of decent public transport. We have to drive everywhere, because unless you live in a big-ish city, your bus system blows and rail transport is nonexistent.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Thank god my father was in the military when I had surgeries for:

-Undescended left testicle
-Skin grafting on gum in mouth
-Fish hook stuck in my knee

 

[Hari Seldon]

It is obvious that single payer healthcare works the best. Just look at the data around all other first world countries. However, what those countries don't have is a banana republic government where lobbyists run the entire show.

 

[mclem]

Wonderful. So everyone else in the UK who pays taxes paid for it then.

As a UK taxpayer: Fine. By. Me.

 

[Piecake]

Im curious, how do other countries on a government run health care system deal with malpractice insurance?

I remember having an argument with someone on this board who said that while going to a govt run system would help, the biggest waste o money is doctors carrying out unnecessary procedures and tests because they are afraid of getting sued.

Now, I have no idea if that is true on not, but I think I have a pretty good way to solve it. Just completely get rid of malpractice insurance. Instead, the injured party sues the hospital , not the doctor (or both), and the government (we are on a govt run system) pays out any claims. This way, the doctor has no premiums. He is not worried about those premiums skyrocketing and putting him out in the streets, and he is practicing better medicine because of it.

Obviously, if some doctor gets sued more than the others in his hospital, the hospital should fire him, but I think that is about the only adverse consequences that should happen to the hospital and the doctors. Id imagine everyone practicing cheaper, better medicine would pay (for some, all, or more) for the expenses of this government backed malpractice system

 

[DonasaurusRex]

I have had a ton of medical problems, and my insurance has never fucked me. What percentage of the population that has insurance do these horror stories actually represent?



I don't pay extreme amounts of money for basic healthcare, or even for stuff like MRIs.




Most people have health insurance and the horror stories and hyperbole that are all over this thread don't apply to them. Of course, a lot of people don't have health insurance, and some people do get screwed over, and that's a tragedy. But The hyperbole in this thread is out of control.

yeah but some people do have health care and its more of a shitty co pay not full coverage benefits. So good for you that its never happened to you but thats not the reality for all in america not by a long shot. You want full coverage at some jobs your talking a substantial part of their paycheck , not a monthly cost a per pay check cost that maybe every cant afford. It's not uncommon for people to have one job for healthcare and another for other expenses. Whatever your situation is its great but there are a lot of programs that absolutely blow when you see what they cover or what the co pay ends up being when its all said and done.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Im curious, how do other countries on a government run health care system deal with malpractice insurance?

I remember having an argument with someone on this board who said that while going to a govt run system would help, the biggest waste o money is doctors carrying out unnecessary procedures and tests because they are afraid of getting sued.

Now, I have no idea if that is true on not, but I think I have a pretty good way to solve it. Just completely get rid of malpractice insurance. Instead, the injured party sues the hospital , not the doctor (or both), and the government (we are on a govt run system) pays out any claims. This way, the doctor has no premiums. He is not worried about those premiums skyrocketing and putting him out in the streets, and he is practicing better medicine because of it.

Obviously, if some doctor gets sued more than the others in his hospital, the hospital should fire him, but I think that is about the only adverse consequences that should happen to the hospital and the doctors. Id imagine everyone practicing cheaper, better medicine would pay (for some, all, or more) for the expenses of this government backed malpractice system

That's already how it works in my country.

Keep in mind tho that even if a doctor drives a drill through a patients brain while drunk the most the family will get is a quarter of a million. Punitive damages don't exist here.

 

[KingK]

Well, just as an example, what would you think is a reasonable time to see a specialist? Say my GP refers me to an ENT because I've perforated my eardrum, and the soonest appointment is three months? Is that acceptable?

Because the appointment's "free", is that, like, lightning-quick for a specialist appointment?

The worst part about when people bring out the "But socialist healthcare makes you wait!" argument is that it completely ignores the fact that you can still have ridiculously long wait times in America.

My dad got hurt at work years ago, and while we had insurance, he still had to wait 6+ months to see a specialist, only to have to wait another 6 months to see a different specialist. By the time they figured out what was wrong and performed surgery, he was already guaranteed to be permanently handicapped. Plus the whole thing cost us a fuck ton of money, even with insurance, and the only reason we didn't have to go bankrupt is because of winning a lawsuit against the employer. Best Healthcare in the World™

Also, my mom had thyroid cancer a couple years ago and since her employers are retiring soon, she was gonna be fucked when she had to find new insurance because of having a pre-existing condition. Luckily Obamacare got rid of that worry, but America's healthcare system is still unbelievably fucked.

It is obvious that single payer healthcare works the best. Just look at the data around all other first world countries. However, what those countries don't have is a banana republic government where lobbyists run the entire show.

Yep. I cannot understand how anybody could look at the data and not be in favor of single payer healthcare. Back in high school, before I was very politically aware, I thought of myself as "moderate" and while I recognized the need for health care reform, I didn't think single payer was a good idea, just because I had been fed all the right-wing corporate propaganda telling me that it was a bad idea and I didn't know any better. Then I did a research paper on health care reform for my English class, and I couldn't believe how fucking obvious it was that we should switch to single payer.

 

[Funky Papa]

It is obvious that single payer healthcare works the best. Just look at the data around all other first world countries. However, what those countries don't have is a banana republic government where lobbyists run the entire show.

Don't worry, you would still have the energy sector. We can attest.

That's already how it works in my country.

Keep in mind tho that even if a doctor drives a drill through a patients brain while drunk the most the family will get is a quarter of a million. Punitive damages don't exist here.

That's one of the few things I really hate about our system. Well, that and the depraved new trend of putting private, for profit companies in charge of public hospitals.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The worst part about when people bring out the "But socialist healthcare makes you wait!" argument is that it completely ignores the fact that you can still have ridiculously long wait times in America.

My dad got hurt at work years ago, and while we had insurance, he still had to wait 6+ months to see a specialist, only to have to wait another 6 months to see a different specialist. By the time they figured out what was wrong and performed surgery, he was already guaranteed to be permanently handicapped. Plus the whole thing cost us a fuck ton of money, even with insurance, and the only reason we didn't have to go bankrupt is because of winning a lawsuit against the employer. Best Healthcare in the World™

Also, my mom had thyroid cancer a couple years ago and since her employers are retiring soon, she was gonna be fucked when she had to find new insurance because of having a pre-existing condition. Luckily Obamacare got rid of that worry, but America's healthcare system is still unbelievably fucked.

Emergencies are attended reasonably fast. We're talking less than 6 hours for the most part.

 

[mavs]

Im curious, how do other countries on a government run health care system deal with malpractice insurance?

I remember having an argument with someone on this board who said that while going to a govt run system would help, the biggest waste o money is doctors carrying out unnecessary procedures and tests because they are afraid of getting sued.

Now, I have no idea if that is true on not, but I think I have a pretty good way to solve it. Just completely get rid of malpractice insurance. Instead, the injured party sues the hospital , not the doctor (or both), and the government (we are on a govt run system) pays out any claims. This way, the doctor has no premiums. He is not worried about those premiums skyrocketing and putting him out in the streets, and he is practicing better medicine because of it.

Obviously, if some doctor gets sued more than the others in his hospital, the hospital should fire him, but I think that is about the only adverse consequences that should happen to the hospital and the doctors. Id imagine everyone practicing cheaper, better medicine would pay (for some, all, or more) for the expenses of this government backed malpractice system

The biggest waste of money is unnecessary care, but the largest part of that is probably misplaced incentives and not defensive medicine. You have a logical solution but it's one that will make the system even more unpopular. People hate making claims on the government because the government is no pushover. People hate making malpractice claims too but they don't vote in their doctors.

 

[Zoe]

Unless you're bleeding out, you sit in the ER for hours in the U.S., too.

If you have time to sit around for treatment at the ER, you probably didn't need to go to the ER.

 

[frankie_baby]

lol, this is not actually covered by medicare in Canada unless it is medically necessary (then it is free)

Think it cost my buddy about $150 to have thr procedure done for his newbord. Just looked up the US price and it seems to be the same for a newborn. For an adult it seems to be $1500 - $2000

Americans actually pay for those stupid mutilations they inflict on their children? I just assumed the foreskin was a tip for the doctor

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Don't worry, you would still have the energy sector. We can attest.


That's one of the few things I really hate about our system. Well, that and the depraved new trend of putting private, for profit companies in charge of public hospitals.

Healthcare privatisation is bullshit.

Efficiency my ass... It's like the mandatory technical vehicle inspection... It's so "efficient" corporations bribe politicians to get the gig.

 

[Funky Papa]

If you have time to sit around for treatment at the ER, you probably didn't need to go to the ER.

There are tons of causes to haul ass to the ER without being in your last throes. Broken limbs, abdominal pains, weird lumps appearing out of nowhere...

I've visited the ER four times in my life. The first one I was running a terrible fever (complete with hallucinations) due to some awful food poisoning, the second one was because I blew my left eardrum with a q-tip (oh, joy) and during the third one I had horrible abdominal pains (sometimes I get those) that made me unable to stand up. Finally, a few months ago I sliced one of my fingers in the kitchen, requiring a few stitches.

Barring the first incident none of those situations were life threatening, but I definitely needed the services provided by the ER.

 

[Zoe]

Barring the first incident none of those situations were life threatening, but I definitely needed the services provided by the ER.

The point is there are other places that can handle those kinds of services without tying up the resources at an ER.

 

[Funky Papa]

The point is there are other places that can handle those kinds of services without tying up the resources at an ER.

Not always. At least not in time. I can't wait an entire day to get my finger patched or my eardrum checked. Also, that crippling (and I mean it) abdominal pain could be an appendicitis. You wait for too long and you end with something a heck of a lot worse.

Going to the ER because you have a bad cold is a terrible waste of resources, that I agree, but some other things require a speedier solution.

 

[Hieberrr]

People don't like high taxes, but they love their health care, so it's okay.

/Canada

Waddup.

 

[poppabk]

Anybody knows what's the price of a circumcision?

Genuine question.

$500. Not covered by insurance in the US.

 

[Piecake]

The biggest waste of money is unnecessary care, but the largest part of that is probably misplaced incentives and not defensive medicine. You have a logical solution but it's one that will make the system even more unpopular. People hate making claims on the government because the government is no pushover. People hate making malpractice claims too but they don't vote in their doctors.

Oh, I am not suggesting that they make claims to the government. I am suggesting that they sue the hospital and that the hospital is completely backed by the government. Basically, you can still have your day in court, or you can settle with the hospital, its just that those expenses incurred by the hospital in that whole mess will now be fully refunded by the government

As for popularity, Id imagine that it would be unpopular at first (no one likes change), but, along with government run health care, over time, once everyone realizes how much money we are saving, it will become quite popular

 

[hockeypuck]

Emergencies are attended reasonably fast. We're talking less than 6 hours for the most part.

In the past 20 years there has been a 35% increase in total ER visits annually.

Number of urban and suburban Emergency Rooms in the U.S. in 1990: 2,446.
Number of urban and suburban Emergency Rooms in the U.S. in 2009: 1,779.

When the ER is a money-sink for a hospital, they can close it.