Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No. People discussing this subject has an immediate impeding factor on his enjoyment of games. Didn't you know?
Why are there still so many white men in video games
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RockTurtle
Member
12 angry men?
larrybird33
Banned
Who cares. PC police have been trying to get their claws into gaming for a while now, gaming is so not the place for it.
^ If you don't care then why post in the thread? Oh that's right it's because you do care.
We can look at US and Europe being predominantly white but then we have to ignore every other market two of which is Asia and Canada where gaming is fairly large here. Even with those country's being more white, do these statistics have proof that the majority of the gamers are white? These are all reasons as to why these statistics should be questioned.
And once again, why is it that the market has such a placed importance on changing artistic vision but anything else is considering harmful? Obviously because they want money but the community has no problem with the former while the latter is looked down on.
So with that in mind let's start here. Why is it unfair to ask for more inclusiveness in games that don't require an established personality? particularly games where the protagonist is a self-insert? Something that allows everyone to play? Women, LGBT and minorities are forced to play as white straight men all the time. Why is it we have to suck it up to be a part of the medium but white straight men can't suck it up on having any of those three represented?
It's especially concerning that these demographics have no issue playing as aliens, animals or other odd creatures but a human being is somehow crossing the line.
If this behavior couldn't be changed, video games wouldn't have progressed as much as they have. While they still have a long way to go, it's a lot better than it used to be.
Exactly how are gender stereotypes biology related when they're gender constructs? The whole point is that society has dictated who should like what.
Is there biological differences in men and women? Yes. Does that have anything to do with what entertainment they enjoy? No.
I'm not hand waving anything. I questioned the accuracy of gaming audience statistics and how they included women, minorities and LGBT. Do they take into account other factors such as women being less likely to vocalize their enjoyment of gaming due to the community's toxic attitude towards them? Is there not still a shaming aspect present towards women that enjoy video games?
We can look at US and Europe being predominantly white but then we have to ignore every other market two of which is Asia and Canada where gaming is fairly large here. Even with those country's being more white, do these statistics have proof that the majority of the gamers are white? These are all reasons as to why these statistics should be questioned.
And once again, why is it that the market has such a placed importance on changing artistic vision but anything else is considering harmful? Obviously because they want money but the community has no problem with the former while the latter is looked down on.
Yes everyone wants to be represented. This isn't one area of gaming that's being discussed, it's all types and genre's with AAA being the big one.
So with that in mind let's start here. Why is it unfair to ask for more inclusiveness in games that don't require an established personality? particularly games where the protagonist is a self-insert? Something that allows everyone to play? Women, LGBT and minorities are forced to play as white straight men all the time. Why is it we have to suck it up to be a part of the medium but white straight men can't suck it up on having any of those three represented?
It's especially concerning that these demographics have no issue playing as aliens, animals or other odd creatures but a human being is somehow crossing the line.
If this behavior couldn't be changed, video games wouldn't have progressed as much as they have. While they still have a long way to go, it's a lot better than it used to be.
Exactly how are gender stereotypes biology related when they're gender constructs? The whole point is that society has dictated who should like what.
Is there biological differences in men and women? Yes. Does that have anything to do with what entertainment they enjoy? No.
Why not? If you don't mind me asking.
Roland1979
Junior Member
Lol. Yeah... no.
While the scripts may not be strong, that's completely subjective. But if we start saying that because the script is weak, the protagonist should be made a different race or gender for the sake of diversity, what's to say we won't end up saying, because the script is strong, the protagonist or characters should be portrayed as a different race or gender so that under-represented group can get some representation or create some role models in that demographic?
And you say even in AAA space characters could be swapped for anything and it would make very little difference. If the fears of the publisher lie in the fact that they feel swapping characters for certain races or genders would lead to lower sales, I feel that is a very legitimate concern. And I don't think there is anything wrong with them not wanting to take the gamble.
If it boils down to a business decision of maximising sales, they should be free to make that choice. Because to me, it sounds like we are tasking the game makers with artificially creating diversity. If games with minority leads or female leads continue to under-perform relative to other games, it is due to the fact that people don't enjoy the gameplay, or they don't prefer to play as that type of character. If it is the latter, the way to go about it isn't by force-feeding it.
I have friends who do not enjoy playing as female characters and jokingly mock me for preferring to play as female characters. I don't see them as misogynist, which is what some of the rhetoric from some of the people arguing for more diversity in games would suggest.
If you don't care, why bother posting in the thread just to downplay/dismiss the discussion about it?
And if it's all the same to you, it shouldn't even matter then that other people want more diversity.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
because most games are violent and it's our nature as white men to want to conquer and dominate
no, not really, but that answer came to mind as another conclusion someone could draw if they really wanted to see something
no, not really, but that answer came to mind as another conclusion someone could draw if they really wanted to see something
Infinite Xero
Member
But games like these are usually diverse in characters. It's only your typical shooting or action adventure games that you have primarily white male protagonist. And that makes sense for the reasons I have above.
I can see why some want to try the whole "these guys are the majority and don't want to play with characters that are different than who they are" but I think this is solving nothing.
I think most are underestimating gamers. It may seem daunting at first but gamers are not stagnant. We come to enjoy variety and new things fairly easily if it's fun and appealing.
I say this because the response to Nintendo's recent rise in female characters has received nothing but praise and even hope for more. The possibility of Link having turned out to be Zelda had many excited and hopeful. Moreover, even Tomb Raider (a game with a female lead) has sold very well.
More female leads isn't going to hurt. This is what needs to acknowledged. The same needs to be done for POC. TLOU having a *won't spoil this for people but it involves the DLC*, TWD having black main characters, and so on. For the Developers that aren't scared of taking risks, it's necessary/great for gamers to be taken out of our little worlds to live someone else's ~ even better when they're much different than ourselves. Having more variety, and change will keep things fresh for more gaming in the future.
I think most are underestimating gamers. It may seem daunting at first but gamers are not stagnant. We come to enjoy variety and new things fairly easily if it's fun and appealing.
I say this because the response to Nintendo's recent rise in female characters has received nothing but praise and even hope for more. The possibility of Link having turned out to be Zelda had many excited and hopeful. Moreover, even Tomb Raider (a game with a female lead) has sold very well.
More female leads isn't going to hurt. This is what needs to acknowledged. The same needs to be done for POC. TLOU having a *won't spoil this for people but it involves the DLC*, TWD having black main characters, and so on. For the Developers that aren't scared of taking risks, it's necessary/great for gamers to be taken out of our little worlds to live someone else's ~ even better when they're much different than ourselves. Having more variety, and change will keep things fresh for more gaming in the future.
Kadayi
Banned
Forced? We're talking about an entertainment medium here with more games presently available than anyone could consume in two dozen lifetimes. It might be fair to say that there's a lot of games of a particular type that feature X, or Y, but it's a bit of a stretch to say anyone's being forced to play them.
Edit: lol
But I think every industry, be it now gaming or movies or the literature industry deserve to have people discussing things that are identified as flaws in the respective mediums. Or am I wrong in that?
More Fun To Compute
Member
This is more about how games are marketed and presented in the US than how games are made or played.
American box art for games is notoriously stylised towards grim faced white men staring right at you. In Orwellian terms it makes a shelf full of console game boxes look like an iron boot stamping on the face of game buyers forever. You must be like a hormonal teenage white boy to look at this shelf or it's off to the thought police for you.
American box art for games is notoriously stylised towards grim faced white men staring right at you. In Orwellian terms it makes a shelf full of console game boxes look like an iron boot stamping on the face of game buyers forever. You must be like a hormonal teenage white boy to look at this shelf or it's off to the thought police for you.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Oh, so all white men are the same now? 
At least we're past the oppressive old era where our oppressive ruling oligarchs were cold calculating white pixels recklessly bouncing across inky voids, pizza shaped scoundrels gobbling up the world's supply of yellow dots, and spaceships that went pewpewpew without consideration for terrestrial bound fleshy inhabitants. Or who can forget the dark times when furry animal mascots oppressed the whole of humanity, as though we homo sapiens were not also capable of jumping and collecting doohickeys across fantasy landscapes? Yes, I can feel the indignation stirring again within me now!
And most importantly I'm driving a stake in the ground here and now to say unequivocally that nuance doesn't exist, and that thematic trends can only be a full frontal assault on minority groups. Truly, the prejudice of this industry knows no bounds, and I'm just going to ignore any of the dozens of examples of alternatives that contradict my argument.
Hint: Machismo reigns supreme in games because a huge swath of the market enjoys role playing that fantasy. And yes, it is a symptom of a great societal ailment, which is militaristic zeal and the belief that conflict is resolved through violent means. If you don't like it support alternate styles of software or better yet get involved in development instead of stamping your feet and passively analyzing the problem. Women should be gleeful that more female characters aren't attached to brainless ultra violence, and in a market where indie gaming has been a growing voice for some time now motivated content creators have a chance to express whatever message they please. The big companies will always go with the safe bet, and sadly the reality remains that roided out protagonists cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. socially frustrated testosterone fueled 16 year old suburban boys with lots of time and cash to burn.
At least we're past the oppressive old era where our oppressive ruling oligarchs were cold calculating white pixels recklessly bouncing across inky voids, pizza shaped scoundrels gobbling up the world's supply of yellow dots, and spaceships that went pewpewpew without consideration for terrestrial bound fleshy inhabitants. Or who can forget the dark times when furry animal mascots oppressed the whole of humanity, as though we homo sapiens were not also capable of jumping and collecting doohickeys across fantasy landscapes? Yes, I can feel the indignation stirring again within me now! And most importantly I'm driving a stake in the ground here and now to say unequivocally that nuance doesn't exist, and that thematic trends can only be a full frontal assault on minority groups. Truly, the prejudice of this industry knows no bounds, and I'm just going to ignore any of the dozens of examples of alternatives that contradict my argument.
Hint: Machismo reigns supreme in games because a huge swath of the market enjoys role playing that fantasy. And yes, it is a symptom of a great societal ailment, which is militaristic zeal and the belief that conflict is resolved through violent means. If you don't like it support alternate styles of software or better yet get involved in development instead of stamping your feet and passively analyzing the problem. Women should be gleeful that more female characters aren't attached to brainless ultra violence, and in a market where indie gaming has been a growing voice for some time now motivated content creators have a chance to express whatever message they please. The big companies will always go with the safe bet, and sadly the reality remains that roided out protagonists cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. socially frustrated testosterone fueled 16 year old suburban boys with lots of time and cash to burn.
If the PC police bit was true, then gaming would have died in the 90s instead of adjusting back when gaming was a political chessboard. More like 'PC police' is just a label that some people use to refer to subjects having to do with changes to social acceptance of certain subjects, attitudes, or comments that make them uncomfortable. It's always the same, if law and order is such a great thing, then wouldn't PC police be good instead of bad? But no, it's always in contexts of someone oppressing the free speech of good old American traditions.
Kadayi
Banned
Not at all, but it would be more productive to look at the raw data overall versus cherry picking particular examples or presenting certain broad arguments that don't necessarily hold up to that much scrutiny. The case presented is often that 50% of gamers are women, and personally I don't doubt that's the case, by whether that spread is universally even across all platforms and genres is another thing entirely.
Pretty funny how this thread is worded. I think a "Why is x or y underrepresented in medium z?" would lead to a more constructive discussion than yet another witch hunt on white males.
I think those questions have been answered many times already.
Most Western developers are North American or European.
Most people in North America and Europe are white.
Most 'core' gamers are male (right?, the ones that buy those annual shooter fests from the big publishers anyway).
The games these developers make have to resonate with the majority of their target audience. All that's left to argue about is whether the lesser representation of the minority is an actual under representation or an accurate one given the numbers.
I think those questions have been answered many times already.
Most Western developers are North American or European.
Most people in North America and Europe are white.
Most 'core' gamers are male (right?, the ones that buy those annual shooter fests from the big publishers anyway).
The games these developers make have to resonate with the majority of their target audience. All that's left to argue about is whether the lesser representation of the minority is an actual under representation or an accurate one given the numbers.
Perhaps, but it's kind of hard to have a "witch hunt" against the majority and the current title just reflects the fact that essentially every other group is underrepresented.
EDIT: Furthermore, calling it a witch hunt implies condemnation, but I haven't noticed anyone in this thread who thinks that it's not okay for a game to have a white male protagonist. The people who are being critical are mostly questioning why things are so homogeneous on a larger scale.
Police constable police!?
Honestly, the white male thing isn't even the core of the problem. All of these characters have the same exact body-type, personality, ideology and backstory.
I think that's more frightening than the "white-male" thing. They're not even exploring all the different things a white male could be, physically, spiritually, psychologically. If they can't even do that, there's no way they could even bother with the full spectrum of humanity. xD
That's why I appreciate games that are about more uniquely universal things like childhood neglect, relationship commitment issues and spousal abuse/relationship deterioration. Ya know...games like Majora's Mask, Catherine Aaand Silent Hill 2. All games about a generic white male but handling situations that all of humanity can nod their head to.
Also a good point. It could very well be that the prevalence of white male characters is an indirect effect of "blockbuster" games generally being focused on a few types of protagonist, most of which are traditionally have white males "cast" in those roles. Making your characters more diverse in a narrative sense can open the door to representing new demographics as well.
TotalBiscuit seems to have the same stance as me.
https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/the-discussion
13 min long
https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/477944960810242049
Here's the tweet.
https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/the-discussion
13 min long
https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/477944960810242049
Here's the tweet.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I kinda think the problem here is focus-group development. As it has been said, focus grouping games to death these days is about making things so damned bland that they succeed only in not offending anyone in the room.
Unless the game is itself predicated on controversy - like Grand Theft Auto - it seems the general trend is to shave off every sharp edge until you're left with a bar of *cough* ivory *cough* soap.
What a strange coincidence that so many developers would create so many similar characters with so many similar attributes. o____o Perhaps there is more to be seen here?
Can we turn this particular phrase into a meme? Pleaaase?
I'd love to make my own game, but I don't think it would change the state of the AAA game industry.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
To me, it's like hearing "if you love your game so much why don't you marry it?!", in terms of level of discourse.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Well I guess we'll never know because they don't take that gamble.
I find it hard to believe sales would be massively different if Master Chief was hispanic, or if Nathan Drake was caribbean though.
Obviously all those white male gamers would be instantly repulsed if they started to suspect too strongly that the gravelly voice behind that helmet might not be coming from a white guy. It'd be a disaster that would completely destroy the franchise, just like Tyrael having a brown-skinned mortal form in Diablo III, or the Metroid series revealing that Samus was a woman!
Well, you've got to start somewhere. Maybe it's starting your own indie game right now, or planning for the long term by applying to university courses relevant to game creation. But just saying that "they" or "you" should be making these kinds of games, feels a bit, I don't know, entitled.
I've heard of lots of writers and musicians who felt some particular genre of literature or music was underrepresented and just decided to write it themselves.
ibun
Member
I showed this thread my gf. She didn't understand all the discussion me neither. Her only comment was "I wouldn't want a female Master Chief". I am not a "white guy", I am a foreigner living in central europe. To me and to my gf, games are just a story I can play. Means of entertainment nothing else. I guess most of you are american, so you are in this "white male" thing but there is more to it and actually....many many many people don't care since it is just entertainment. Sure I am a guy and I like to see a sexy female in there, but I don't care if she is in there just for eye candy, since same goes for the female population.
I think saying that white male video game writers can only make white males characters is selling a lot of people short. It does not speak well of an artist's talents if they're strictly limited to creating characters that fall into exactly the same demographic as them.
The industry is a lot more diverse and talented than people give it credit for, but a lot of its creative potential is being held back by skittish, stingy publishers and irrational fears of how the audience might respond.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
To those saying that her complaining isn't accomplishing anything and that she should just make her own games if she's unhappy, well, apparently she has enough clout in the industry to influence Neil Druckmann, who claims she inspired him to make the story of The Last of Us better:
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2014/04/the-2014-game-developers-choice-ambassador-award/
So.... yeah. If she starts now, maybe she can release a small indie game within a year or two which would probably not change the AAA gaming industry one bit. But instead, she's influencing leaders of the industry right now.
Cue anyone saying "oh no, Druckmann's vision was compromised by that PCness, that's why the story in TLoU was so bad, and all those female characters were such shoehorned tokens!". Right?
And Neil Druckmann is a white male. Yet TLoU features not only Ellie but Tess, Maria and Marlene, each of them with agency and each of them varied in personality and motivations... what is this sorcery?
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2014/04/the-2014-game-developers-choice-ambassador-award/
Neil Druckmann said:
So.... yeah. If she starts now, maybe she can release a small indie game within a year or two which would probably not change the AAA gaming industry one bit. But instead, she's influencing leaders of the industry right now.
Cue anyone saying "oh no, Druckmann's vision was compromised by that PCness, that's why the story in TLoU was so bad, and all those female characters were such shoehorned tokens!". Right?
And Neil Druckmann is a white male. Yet TLoU features not only Ellie but Tess, Maria and Marlene, each of them with agency and each of them varied in personality and motivations... what is this sorcery?
That's great, but writing a book or song is a lot cheaper than making a game. Even indie games needs a lot to start production.
Also I just graduated with a minor in game design and PR + Advertisement. But I'm a designer who doesn't exactly want to make games for my primary income. So instead I play games and talk about them. It takes a lot less time and money and it's more fun for me.
Vermillion
Banned
You know what's bothersome? The "I can't relate." The fact that games are less likely to sell if a protagonist is female or a minority. I feel like we always gloss over that point in these discussions.
It goes something like "the game would sell worse; it's just business." The response is (in my case) "gaming companies should take more risks regardless of sales." I personally never really thought about it. Like, we accept it as a reason and move on, but if anything is keeping gaming a "boys club" it's those attitudes.
It goes something like "the game would sell worse; it's just business." The response is (in my case) "gaming companies should take more risks regardless of sales." I personally never really thought about it. Like, we accept it as a reason and move on, but if anything is keeping gaming a "boys club" it's those attitudes.
A lot of great things would never have happened if all creative media strictly held that kind of attitude. Hell, rock and roll evolved in large part due to white artists playing what was traditionally considered "black" music. Strict adherence to target demographics is a very limiting way of thinking.
Vermillion
Banned
Absolutely - and I say something along those lines in my post. I'm saying that we never focus on the attitudes of the target audience beyond saying things like that.
It's pretty damning that the gamers themselves don't want to play as minorities or women.
EDIT: Same attitudes exist with movies, as a matter or fact.
jordan0386
Member
Larry, what you got against minorities in games? Why would you say who cares.
Within movies, they act like NYC is all white.
Totally agreed, I was just expounding on your point. I just found it a really powerful idea that following the "Leave it alone! It's just business!" advice in this thread could lead to video games missing out on their equivalent of rock and roll.
That's not at all what I meant. The "people" (white, black, male, female, who knows) who make these games seem to prefer to mostly have a white male protagonist in their games. For one reason or another. The only way to change this is to have other "people" entering the scene and making games more to their liking.
I'm not for or against any types of characters in games, I don't choose games based on what you play as. But what is your solution to this situation? Who's minds are you trying to change and how?
I don't think we can take this for granted, just because there haven't been that many earnest, high-profile attempts to try something else, and unsuccessful games with non-white or non-male protagonists didn't necessarily fail for that reason alone. "Remember Me" wouldn't necessarily have been a big hit if it had a white male protag, for example.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes. Yes it is.
Did you ask her why not? There was a female spartan in Halo Reach, wasn't there? Also, has she played Metroid? Does she just not like the "badass gun-slinging female" style?
Her adherence to social norms really doesn't do her or your argument any favors in the discussion. If you don't care either way, why didn't you ask her why she does care?
Vermillion
Banned
Oh, gotcha!
The issues gaming has with diversity is only a smaller piece of a larger issues with media as a whole.
The modern Western gaming industry borrows heavily from Hollywood action films which have historically been mostly white male power fantasies.
To add to this, the "people" who make video games are mostly white men.
The gaming industry itself is pretty unfriendly to those who aren't white dudes (this is true of other tech fields). Harassment and exclusion are genuine problems.
The modern Western gaming industry borrows heavily from Hollywood action films which have historically been mostly white male power fantasies.
To add to this, the "people" who make video games are mostly white men.
The gaming industry itself is pretty unfriendly to those who aren't white dudes (this is true of other tech fields). Harassment and exclusion are genuine problems.
Do we really not? For what it's worth, GTA San Andreas was my favourite GTA game, despite the fact that I had very little in common with the main character. But I don't play games to relate, I play for engaging stories or gameplay elements.
How about in advertising? The Old Spice commercials were extremely successful because they targeted women who were girlfriends and mothers. They knew that making the typical raunchy somewhat misogynistic man commercial wouldn't make sense so they went the other route. Appealing to women who go shopping for men. And it was amazing and viral.
And the best part: men and women loved it. They couldn't have done that if they had assumed their product was only for men.
Red Chocobo
Banned
I'm getting so confused.
So is Tomb Raider good for having a female lead or bad for pandering to males by following a sexy girl's ass the whole game?
So is TLOU good for having a interesting females in the cast or evil for having another straight white male lead?
So it's daming for white males to not want to play as anyone else, but we should champion minorities for not wanting to play as white males?
Is there an infographic or something I can look at because I can't keep up with which soapbox I'm supposed to be listening to.
So is Tomb Raider good for having a female lead or bad for pandering to males by following a sexy girl's ass the whole game?
So is TLOU good for having a interesting females in the cast or evil for having another straight white male lead?
So it's daming for white males to not want to play as anyone else, but we should champion minorities for not wanting to play as white males?
Is there an infographic or something I can look at because I can't keep up with which soapbox I'm supposed to be listening to.
Marlboro cigarettes are another example of crossing demographic lines, albeit a pretty gross one. They were originally marketed primarily towards women due to their filters and supposedly mild flavor, but Philip Morris hired Leo Burnett to revamp the brand. All of a sudden they became a top-selling brand, and we all know that there's nothing more manly than cowboys and Marlboro cigarettes.
The point is that what's considered a "girl thing" or a "guy thing" can change at a moment's notice if the right people get involved.
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