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[LouisaFerre]

I'm honestly nitpicking, but I feel like there's a difference between saying you want people to do something and saying that they "should". To me the latter implies that it would be more viable(or morally superior) for the game developer or publisher to make more diverse characters, but if those don't sell as well(something in the hands of the consumers), then that's obviously not the case. Also, while I think diversity in what games cater to is good, I don't see there as being some moral obligation to make a product less people want just because I would consider it to be preferable.

Spoiler

Games that let you create your own character are the future.

 

[zeldablue]

Because the vast majority of games are made by white males and marketing departments probably feel that a lot of white people don't want to play as blacks, women, etc.

As a black man myself I've become almost blind to this, I simply do not care anymore. I'm used to seeing very little representation of my people as the main character in books, tv, movies and video games and have long since stopped caring. I hardly even care they we're stereotyped as gang members #00001-#594590.

Racial representation is not something I actively care about in my video games or even think about.

Yeah...me too honestly. I definitely can relate. I kind of laugh off the representation of black people. Especially in horror movies when I count how long it takes for them to kill off the token minority.

I had little understanding about feminism besides the women's suffrage movement and Prohibition. (That's all I remember learning in school.)

But three years ago I was working as an artist on a Facebook game with students in the game design program, and I overheard the guys talking about Anita and her kickstarter. Their vocal anger and resentment perked my curiousity. I then watched how angry the game community at large was about just the subject of talking about girls in games.

People who I assumed were really cool and tolerant and fun were throwing around death and rape threats like it was nothing. And even though I only stood back and watched, I was really shocked that so many people were throwing direct insults at someone they didn't even know. It's like finding out your friends are really racist and don't like you but just put up with you after all those years. The illusion was shattered and my eyes were open to how intolerant the air of my favorite hobby was. I don't care much about the representation, but I do care about the sexism I see online and possibly within the industry.

o___o if there is a change then I'll be pretty cool with it, but I've gone my whole life being okay with the lack of representation of blacks, females and, of course, black females.

I can't say the representation truly matters until the industry/fans change their world view a tad.

 

[EscoBlades]

As a black man myself I've become almost blind to this, I simply do not care anymore. I'm used to seeing very little representation of my people as the main character in books, tv, movies and video games and have long since stopped caring. I hardly even care they we're stereotyped as gang members #00001-#594590.

This is a real shame. It actually pains me to read this.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

Because the vast majority of games are made by white males and marketing departments probably feel that a lot of white people don't want to play as blacks, women, etc.

As a black man myself I've become almost blind to this, I simply do not care anymore. I'm used to seeing very little representation of my people as the main character in books, tv, movies and video games and have long since stopped caring. I hardly even care they we're stereotyped as gang members #00001-#594590.

Racial representation is not something I actively care about in my video games or even think about.

Something that kinda ruins games imo are cutscenes, where your character is shown. I realize theses are never going away, but I'd probably enjoy first person games more if how my character appeared was more left to my imagination. Hell, I do that with books all the time.

 

[tookhster]

I am still wondering why people are asking themselves those questions. Its pretty simple. There's that many white man because there's that many white man making games. As simple as that.

If most games were made in africa most games would have an african as the main hero. Its perfectly normal and correct that way.

You want more women in videogames? You women should thrive to become a game designer, etc.

I still can't believe people are posting the same thing over and over again. Do people even read at least the first two pages of a thread before commenting anymore?

When people had issues with Microsoft's DRM BS for the Xbox One, were they told to make their own Xboxes? No, they spoke out and voiced their concerns, and in the end Microsoft actually listened. Why is it a crime for people who want another change in gaming to do the same thing?

I'm not really in favor of developers including racially diverse characters "just because" when they really don't fit within a plot or something. But come on....it's 2014, people. Video games are bigger now than ever thanks to Youtube, Twitch, etc. This mentality that "the average gamer" is just some 30 year-old white male is simply not true anymore IMO. Sure they are probably without a doubt the majority of gamers, and it is by no means a bad thing having white male protagonists, but it is not that hard to include other races into the mix. It's not like there are hundreds of races to choose from. I have seen plenty of young kids of different races get into games by playing games like Minecraft and League Of Legends. We are seeing more girl gamers than ever on sites like Youtube and Twitch and even forums. The market is clearly there, and I personally don't think the gap between female/racially diverse gamers and white males is as huge as everyone is making it out to be. Not anymore.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I still can't believe people are posting the same thing over and over again. Do people even read at least the first two pages of a thread before commenting anymore?

When people had issues with Microsoft's DRM BS for the Xbox One, were they told to make their own Xboxes? No, they spoke out and voiced their concerns, and in the end Microsoft actually listened. Why is it a crime for people who want another change in gaming to do the same thing?

I'm not really in favor of developers including racially diverse characters "just because" when they really don't fit within a plot or something. But come on....it's 2014, people. Video games are bigger now than ever thanks to Youtube, Twitch, etc. This mentality that "the average gamer" is just some 30 year-old white male is simply not true anymore IMO. Sure they are probably without a doubt the majority of gamers, and it is by no means a bad thing having white male protagonists, but it is not that hard to include other races into the mix. It's not like there are hundreds of races to choose from. I have seen plenty of young kids of different races get into games by playing games like Minecraft and League Of Legends. We are seeing more girl gamers than ever on sites like Youtube and Twitch and even forums. The market is clearly there, and I personally don't think the gap between female/racially diverse gamers and white males is as huge as everyone is making it out to be. Not anymore.

If the market is so clearly there I guess that publishers just hate money? Because if it was so easy to fill a profitable niche I think some publisher would be more than willing to fill it. The idea that a woman can make a game is more empowering than griping about a lack of them. And with the rise of indies making a game is not even remotely comparable to something like console manufacturing which is a hopelessly shallow comparison.

It's not wrong for someone to approach the subject through a blog post, but the best you're going to get is discourse on the subject. To affect actual change requires either making the damn games or the people who are complaining putting their money where their mouth is and supporting them with their wallet. If they are profitable publishers will put their clout behind them. It's pretty basic and I don't see why reflecting this opinion is such an affront to some people, or considered insensitive or oversimplified. On the contrary, I think simply glibly complaining about the problem in the abstract and expecting an entire industry to magically shift gears is an unreasonable oversimplification.

 

[ShalashaskaEx]

As a minority myself, I really could not care less. I'm much more concerned with actual gameplay versus how my character looks.

 

[kirblar]

It's not that people don't understand this. We all understand this perfectly well, thank you. It's that people don't accept the premise that being a for-profit corporation is a get-out-of-jail-free card to engage in any behavior they want. And I suspect that most gamers would actually agree with me, because if we can't criticize profit-seeking behavior, that we can't criticize DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and crappy new gameplay "features" designed to "expand the audience" and forced multiplayer and motion controls and trying to shut down used game sales and walled gardens and forced online marketplaces and region locking and pay-to-play multiplayer and pay-to-win games and microtransactions.

So it it OK to criticize profit-seeking behavior or not?

There was a lot of very good criticism leveled at Microsoft that ended up getting real change to happen, because they were a singular corporate entity with a terrible management team that was driving their brand off the rails. At some point, the bosses noticed, and they got sacked, replaced with a team that's been working to fix all the mistakes they can, but are still stuck with a machine that is definitely underpowered relative to its competition and that will likely leave them losing the generation, but in better shape to compete in the next cycle. This was able to occur because the criticism was leveled at a singular entity.

I don't think the criticism is the problem- it's that the criticism's goal (transform x% of the singular lead protagonists that are athletic white mid-20s guys into not-white/male characters) isn't really one that's in any form achievable in a measurable way. When games "don't count" if they offer multiple protagonists (like the non-4/5/6 titles in the RE series) or an option of character customization (Mass Effect), even though these are by far the two easiest and most risk-free solutions to the problem from a developer standpoint, you're setting yourself up for an eternal war where you'll never accept progress. Most studios don't have the leverage and pull of a Rockstar or Naughty Dog, where their sales and critical track record enables them to make creative choices considered "risky" by their accountants in ways other studios could only dream of. When the goalposts end up structured in such a way that people who actively adapt for more inclusiveness end up not being counted as progress, I don't think that's playing fair.

General criticism for overall improvement for how these female and minority characters are portrayed is definitely a good thing to have. You can point out where games have gotten better about not sexualizing the female characters and using a neutral view (the audience will do that on tumblr for them anyway.) You can ask for less stereotypical portrayals of characters and call out when a company reverts to a problematic trope in a setting where it's just unnecessary. You can ask a company for a specific request regarding its IPs, like when Capcom finally had to figure out a way to properly deal with Poison's gender in a way suitable to modern standards. But when you complain that the industry "doesn't have enough female/minority leads", you're not actually talking to anyone with the individual power to change that %. You've constructed an opponent who can't respond and who can't take action.

 

[Keirnoth]

*walks in*

I thought that was something we've already gone over and something that can't change overn --

*sees title of the thread, sees Anita Sarkeesian mentioned*

Nevermind.

 

[mechphree]

This is a real shame. It actually pains me to read this.

Please don't take his opinion as the majority. I'm black myself and although I'm used to not seeing my race represented I for one know it matters. This whole cavalier attitude of just "accept it" it so ridiculous to me. If we were to just accept how things are say movements such as civil rights would have never started or even the woman's movement for equal wages.

I think we should demand more representation of diversity in all fields. It will help level the playing field for everybody involved .

 

[Vermillion]

Please don't take his opinion as the majority. I'm black myself and although I'm used to not seeing my race represented I for one know it matters. This whole cavalier attitude of just "accept it" it so ridiculous to me. If we were to just accept how things are say movements such as civil rights would have never started or even the woman's movement for equal wages.

I think we should demand more representation of diversity in all fields. It will help level the playing field for everybody involved.

Esco's black, too.

It's pretty easy to understand how people get to the point of acceptance. No one expects good black representation at this point and really, they stop focusing on it.

 

[Authority]

I don't think the criticism is the problem- it's that the criticism's goal (transform x% of the singular lead protagonists that are athletic white mid-20s guys into not-white/male characters) isn't really one that's in any form achievable in a measurable way. When games "don't count" if they offer multiple protagonists (like the non-4/5/6 titles in the RE series) or an option of character customization (Mass Effect), even though these are by far the two easiest and most risk-free solutions to the problem from a developer standpoint, you're setting yourself up for an eternal war where you'll never accept progress. Most studios don't have the leverage and pull of a Rockstar or Naughty Dog, where their sales and critical track record enables them to make creative choices considered "risky" by their accountants in ways other studios could only dream of. When the goalposts end up structured in such a way that people who actively adapt for more inclusiveness end up not being counted as progress, I don't think that's playing fair.

Goal post.

Your post is one of the worst attempts to misconstrue what we are really talking about which is not your intentionally fucked up version of

(transform x% of the singular lead protagonists that are athletic white mid-20s guys into not-white/male characters)

but

The point made is that the number of male characters greatly exceed the female ones.

again,

THE POINT MADE IS THAT THE NUMBER OF MALE CHARACTERS GREATLY EXCEED THE FEMALE ONES

one more time we are going to celebrate oh yeah oh right

But this part is all the fucking money

"There is nothing wrong with criticism (no shit sherlock) but criticism's goal"

My goal is to exterminate white people from this earth and specifically from video games. I am funded by Al-Qaeda and I use Neogaf to make white male gamers guilty so I can recruit future terrorists for the greater cause which is world domination of non-whites into video gaming. That is my goal. In my spare time I throw darts at white male lead protagonists and burn anything I see that is white. I usually play tennis when there is nothing to hate and on the weekend I organize and orchestrate riots again white people in general.

My nickname is WhiteManHunt and my email address is anythingbutwhite@outlook.com

Also,

isn't really one that's in any form achievable in a measurable way

Can I have your crystal ball? Are you a prophet?

even though these are by far the two easiest and most risk-free solutions to the problem from a developer standpoint, you're setting yourself up for an eternal war where you'll never accept progress. Most studios don't have the leverage and pull of a Rockstar or Naughty Dog, where their sales and critical track record enables them to make creative choices considered "risky" by their accountants in ways other studios could only dream of.

Yeah you are right. Wanted more women to

• Be represented better
• Be respected better
• Recognized as a consumer
• Included in multiplayer or co-op games as a default

is a risky business. Fuck basic human rights. It is a risky business. And it is risky including women.

To reiterate, women are

• Expensive
• Costly
• Difficult to animate
• Not part of sales
• Not part of video game population
• Not significant enough
• Not worth the effort
• No solid reason
• Too risky to include
• Should make games
• Should be happy with indies
• Should be happy they are a feature
• Should be happy they are a DLC
• Should be happy they are generally an aftermath
• Should be happy white male developers even consider them

And you talk about progress. With your logic since there is progress, this is

Rainbow Six Siege uses a helpless woman as the flag in its capture the flag style multiplayer game

fine because there is progress.

Jon Tron stylin (parody) - There is progress people. Stop complaining. Everything is fine. There is progress, progress and progress. As long as there is progress, you women should shut your mouth.

But when you complain that the industry "doesn't have enough female/minority leads", you're not actually talking to anyone with the individual power to change that %. You've constructed an opponent who can't respond and who can't take action.

Actually I am talking to someone with power and that is called video game companies and their publishers alike. Actually the media is doing whatever they can to send the message. Actually the video game companies and their publishers alike that give out bullshit answers respond back. Actually I am in position, you know, the dominant group of white male gamers to direct the course of action and change. But thanks again for your deep concern on our matters. It breaks my heart into pieces every time I read how much you care.

Why don't you leave your pathetic attempt to discredit the cause, to downplay the cause, mislead the cause because your posts exemplify concern trolling. Now how does one make this mistake? How is it possible that he thinks we want the number of male lead characters equating female lead characters? I will tell you why because he has got a motive.

The fact is that you don't give a shit about women, you never did on this thread and you just showed up to defend your fucked up reality that we, the "opposition" want to ultimately make white male protagonists as either non-in-existence or become the minority. You and some other poster who only shows up to defend Lolisoft should stop posting because you are either goal posting or concern trolling and for the record here is how you master concern trolling

Hello guys. I just wanted to say that complaining about it is all well and good but please, you must understand that there is no one listening because those people do not have the power to change the world. I am not saying that complaining is bad; not at all. I am just saying that you should recognize the greatness of humanity and accept progress and evolution. Ok guys? Can we all have one big hug and kiss eachother?

I am trying to understand whether I prefer over-hypocritical polite posts or straight out honest but disrespectful posts such as

I haven't kept up with Hardline news, but can you be a woman in the multiplayer? If not that is pretty shitty. Every game with multiplayer should let you be a woman.

Better let the Madden devs know?

but I will take honesty every time.

 

[Brak]

*Insanity*

This is the kind of post that will never convince anyone of anything. It's great that you're passionate about this, but you really can't do anything but preach to the choir with the tone that you're taking.

In fact, you're bound to drive people to the opposite conclusion when they read a post like that. Be confident in the strength of your position. Employing bad rhetorical tactics only makes your position look flimsy. If you have to attack other posters to prove that you're right, then most people won't find your argument very persuasive.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Because the vast majority of games are made by white males and marketing departments probably feel that a lot of white people don't want to play as blacks, women, etc.

The truth is actually sadder; you expect that there is a conversation at some point and a decision is made accordingly.

There isn't.

A game will be made with an exlcusively white male cast, because nobody even notices that an ensemble of exclusively white male people is anything other than standard.

Thats what the problem is; excuses might get made after the fact when its pointed out, but the fact that doing anything other than straight white male characters doesn't even occur to people is the problem.

 

[Kadayi]

In AC unity everyone will see himself as the protagonist, you can never pick who you want to play.That's what so many people seem to miss. It's similar to watchdogs where everyone sees himself playing as aiden pierce. What that does is help to create a seamless experience where you won't switch characters, modes to play coop instead it just ties in naturally with the campaign. If the protagonist had been a woman you'd only be able to play as that woman.

Do you have a source on that? I don't recall reading that in truth and I think it's a mistake to take the multi-player aspect from Watch_dogs as a pointer given there's a differential between Co-op Vs Multi-player in terms of player engagement (working together Vs conflict).

I guess there's the possibility that Ubi might be going to Saints Row route of having your co-op partners just hang around in the background like silent unexplained goons (though with more considered clothing options) but I'm inclined to think they will justify them in some way through the narrative.

This is the kind of post that will never convince anyone of anything. It's great that you're passionate about this, but you really can't do anything but preach to the choir with the tone that you're taking.

In fact, you're bound to drive people to the opposite conclusion when they read a post like that. Be confident in the strength of your position. Employing bad rhetorical tactics only makes your position look flimsy. If you have to attack other posters to prove that you're right, then most people won't find your argument very persuasive.

Seconded.

 

[ibun]

Did you ask her why not? There was a female spartan in Halo Reach, wasn't there? Also, has she played Metroid? Does she just not like the "badass gun-slinging female" style?

Her adherence to social norms really doesn't do her or your argument any favors in the discussion. If you don't care either way, why didn't you ask her why she does care?

It is not about a female Spartan, she just wants Master Chief as he is. She likes the story and never thought of "Oh why couldn't that be a strong female character I can associate with". This thing with MasterChief is because she got used for him to be a Male character. She grew up with SNES her favorite character is Yoshi not Samus Aran, she doesn't like Sci-Fi Action Adventure games like Metroid and never interested in Metroid Prime so never really bought a GameCube and did go straight for the Xbox.
In Fallout3 (a game series she loves) she got her main protagonist to be female, I asked her why and she replied "well it was an option so I took that one" "what if you could play as a Guy only with no other options?" "doesn't matter" (Same for Dragon Age, Dungeon Siege etc,)
I am not sure if it is that hard to understand, but she nor I do care if the lead character is Male or Female. I do not associate myself with the main protagonist on that level.
Well we don't much adhere to social norms since we both come from totally different cultural/ethnic backgrounds. If I were so much about those she shouldn't be working and I would never set foot into the kitchen, but reality is: I do the cooking and household while she rage quits Last of Us five times in a row.
But then again, I am the one catching spiders, throwing out the garbage, changing light bulbs and putting together her newest Ikea stuff and she takes 45 minutes in front of the mirror doing her make up, getting dressed, complaining after every ice cream "I got so fat" (which doesn't stop her to get her 'frustration ration').
Well I have to stop now, since she feels like a guinea pig because I am asking her so many questions.

 

[Videospel]

But when you complain that the industry "doesn't have enough female/minority leads", you're not actually talking to anyone with the individual power to change that %. You've constructed an opponent who can't respond and who can't take action.

Exactly.

Goal post.

Your post is one of the worst attempts to misconstrue what we are really talking about [...]

You don't really want an objective discussion about this, do you?

 

[Kinyou]

Do you have a source on that? I don't recall reading that in truth and I think it's a mistake to take the multi-player aspect from Watch_dogs as a pointer given there's a differential between Co-op Vs Multi-player in terms of player engagement (working together Vs conflict).

I guess there's the possibility that Ubi might be going to Saints Row route of having your co-op partners just hang around in the background like silent unexplained goons (though with more considered clothing options) but I'm inclined to think they will justify them in some way through the narrative.

Here you go:

Plich clarified further that the co-op characters aren’t customizable player avatars, but simply variations on AC:U main character Arno. “Everybody was saying, ‘You made four characters and weren’t able to make even one female character?’ ” he said, explaining that like Watch_Dogs, players will never see what their characters look like to others in co-op play. The gameplay will account for multiple players but the story will not be affected in any way.

http://www.gamefront.com/assassins-creed-unity-devs-truly-didnt-see-controversy-coming/

I think you can criticize them for going down that particular road of design and question if it yields any real benefits, but it makes it a bit more understandable that this isn't just a game like Left 4 Dead etc. where you get to choose a character

 

[Oersted]

I don't think the criticism is the problem- it's that the criticism's goal (transform x% of the singular lead protagonists that are athletic white mid-20s guys into not-white/male characters) isn't really one that's in any form achievable in a measurable way. When games "don't count" if they offer multiple protagonists (like the non-4/5/6 titles in the RE series) or an option of character customization (Mass Effect), even though these are by far the two easiest and most risk-free solutions to the problem from a developer standpoint, you're setting yourself up for an eternal war where you'll never accept progress. Most studios don't have the leverage and pull of a Rockstar or Naughty Dog, where their sales and critical track record enables them to make creative choices considered "risky" by their accountants in ways other studios could only dream of. When the goalposts end up structured in such a way that people who actively adapt for more inclusiveness end up not being counted as progress, I don't think that's playing fair.

Not fair to whom? People are fine with proper character-editors. They are not critized here. The topic is games with strictly white male leads. I guess you missed the point on purpose.

But when you complain that the industry "doesn't have enough female/minority leads", you're not actually talking to anyone with the individual power to change that %. You've constructed an opponent who can't respond and who can't take action.

It is funny that esp you mention that. We had very recently the discussion about AC Unity and the female representation. A very common complaint was, that the criticism was directed to specifically for such a general problem. Now we have the opposite. Both stances have in common that they don't wish a discussion.

 

[Nestunt]

Why are there still so many white men in CEO positions?

 

[Mr. X]

The worst thing you can do is be silent and take it as "just the way it is".

I'm not saying don't buy games, regardless of the main character complexion or gender the game (or any media) can still be amazing. Just be vocal, ask for variety of heroes and villains and experiences.

Don't feel bad for asking for diversity or inclusiveness. You shouldn't be attacked for it, but you will be. More diversity will only bring more to gaming, not take anything away from it.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Why are there still so many white men in CEO positions?

Colonialism and systematic racism.

 

[EscoBlades]

Please don't take his opinion as the majority.

I think we should demand more representation of diversity in all fields. It will help level the playing field for everybody involved .

I know his opinion isn't the majority, but in the context of this discussion, it is still a valid one. And very relevant to my interests.

Also i agree with your last point. I've stated publicly that this is something we need to tackle at a grassroots level. If we want a more diverse industry, then we need more minority kids coming through with a desire to work in the industry, and equipped with the skills to do so.

Esco's black, too.

It's pretty easy to understand how people get to the point of acceptance. No one expects good black representation at this point and really, they stop focusing on it.

I'll admit i very nearly fell into this line of thinking. The bolded is what drives me to continue to talk about it whenever i get the opportunity. It is a topic that almost always gets closed up quickly. We can easily have a 50 page discussion on GAF about the representation of women in games, and the industry. But when it comes to the issue of race in the same sphere of discussion, you'd be lucky to see half that level of discourse. Why is this?

 

[Novocaine]

Because white men dominate the consumer market. It's about making money not caring about feelings.

 

[EscoBlades]

Because white men dominate the consumer market. It's about making money not caring about feelings.

The two can go hand in hand, believe it or not. I tell you that with confidence.

 

[SliceSabre]

Please don't take his opinion as the majority. I'm black myself and although I'm used to not seeing my race represented I for one know it matters. This whole cavalier attitude of just "accept it" it so ridiculous to me. If we were to just accept how things are say movements such as civil rights would have never started or even the woman's movement for equal wages.

I think we should demand more representation of diversity in all fields. It will help level the playing field for everybody involved .

I fully admit that my point of view isn't exactly a positive one. Now that's not to say I don't notice in certain instances or would point out BS if I saw it. i.e. Video game takes place in LA/New York City all of the pedestrians are white.

Outside of examples like that but I just tend to be of mind that this is not negatively affecting my game play experience. If I pop in my new copy of AdventureMan Goes on Dangerous Adventure and he's white, his sidekicks are white and all the people he's killing are Hispanics/Black I don't bat an eye if I'm enjoying said game.

Would I love to see more black people like me, or women, or Hispanic as leads? Yea I'd love to see more of it. But I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

 

[theignoramus]

So it's daming for white males to not want to play as anyone else, but we should champion minorities for not wanting to play as white males?

unbelievable false equivalence here.

 

[theignoramus]

Bingo, people want to play as the characters they can relate best to. Since the average game is a male in their 30s that's what you're going to see in games widespread.

a well written character ought to be relatable to anyone.

 

[Kater]

Also to those people saying that the movie industry is exactly the same and are only producing movies with white male leads, it seems you missed that Disney released a film called Maleficient with a strong female lead character.

Moviebob also took a closer look if you are interested, I leave the link here. (I May Have Been Wrong About Maleficent - Moviebob, The Escapist) (The link contains spoilers though so if you haven't seen it yet but want to I advise you don't read it yet)

And now look what a lot of cash they made with it in just a half month.

Budget $180 million
Box office $358,461,000

(Source: Wikipedia

 

[Seeds]

Also to those people saying that the movie industry is exactly the same and are only producing movies with white male leads, it seems you missed that Disney released a film called Maleficient with a strong female lead character.

Moviebob also took a closer look if you are interested, I leave the link here. (I May Have Been Wrong About Maleficent - Moviebob, The Escapist) (The link contains spoilers though so if you haven't seen it yet but want to I advise you don't read it yet)

And now look what a lot of cash they made with it in just a half month.

Do you think the target audience for Maleficient was the same as that for the random shooter X?

 

[Kadayi]

Here you go

I'm curious as to how they're going to justify 4 clones of yourself running around.

 

[Kater]

Do you think the target audience for Maleficient was the same as that for the random shooter X?

No, but I think that it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get something out of it if you, as a male, would watch something that was intended to be sold mainly to females.
My Little Pony Friendship is Magic is another good example. Strong female lead (but of course not perfect because that would make her unrelatable) and it still managed to get a huge following of both boys and girls. Even adults watch the show. People of all genders and races watch it.

Because it's something new with it's diverse cast of characters. And they watch Maleficient because it's Disney, but they also watch it because it shows a female lead character and are interested in what stories you can tell about a grown women in a grim fairy tale world.

 

[Seeds]

No, but I think that it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get something out of it if you, as a male, would watch something that was intended to be sold mainly to females.
My Little Pony Friendship is Magic is another good example. Strong female lead (but of course not perfect because that would make her unrelatable) and it still managed to get a huge following of both boys and girls. Even adults watch the show. People of all genders and races watch it.

Because it's something new with it's diverse cast of characters. And they watch Maleficient because it's Disney, but they also watch it because it shows a female lead character and are interested in what stories you can tell about a grown women in a grim fairy tale world.

I don't think anyone would argue against what you just said, but none of that gives publishers an incentive to move from their confort zone.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm curious as to how they're going to justify 4 clones of yourself running around.

It's a bit confusing. First he says they're all variations of Arno but mentions later that you'll never see what your character looks like to your coop partners. So not entirely sure what he means by that. It would also be weird to market the game with 4 clones.

 

[TharpDaddy]

I think OP would've gotten a more universally positive response if the topic had been, "Why are there still so few minorities in video games?" The title as it stands now seems to carry this connotation of "white male characters = bad", that they're something that needs to be eliminated from games (or at least drastically reduced in number).

I know from a practical standpoint there's not much difference (increasing representation across the board means that you'll have a smaller percentage of white male protags in games), but in terms of attitude, there's a big difference between "Let's be more inclusive" and "Let's get rid of all those white guys". One comes across a lot more contentious than the other.

And yes, I'd like to see greater racial and gender representation in games too, FWIW. : )

You bring up a very good point. I think a lot of people would be for more diversity in games, but the approach to achieving that i feel is the wrong way -- though i struggle to pinpoint why.

I'm all for diversity in games. There are so many different stories and perspectives to be told and experienced. I think the wording or approach in many of these threads ends up coming across as taking away from one group and giving to another rather than promoting other options. The subtle difference in "i want less white male protagonists" instead of "it'd be cool to play some more unique protagonists". I may be completely off my rocker, but the wording leads to people being defensive because it comes across as people wanting to take away from the majority. People who want to play as a white guy feel like others want to take that option away from them and instead have that character be a woman/minority.

I think this can be seen in that the arguments start much faster if an already established character is brought up. Arno, for example. If the suggestion is made that Arno be a woman or a different race then it becomes a case of taking away from one group, and giving it to another. If instead the game had been revealed with Arno as a woman in the first place then i doubt there would be any issues with it, there wouldn't be anyone clamoring to have Arno be a man.

So in essence i think that a lot of people are for more diversity, but that the approach that is taken when discussing the topic comes off as an attack when it's not meant to be.

 

[Seeds]

It's a bit confusing. First he says they're all variations of Arno but mentions later that you'll never see what your character looks like to your coop partners. So not entirely sure what he means by that. It would also be weird to market the game with 4 clones.

From what I gather, everyone plays as Arno, but the only character that actually looks like Arno to you is your character while other Arnos look like random dudes. In the same way, your friend will see himself as Arno while you will look like some random dude to him.

 

[Orayn]

It's a bit confusing. First he says they're all variations of Arno but mentions later that you'll never see what your character looks like to your coop partners. So not entirely sure what he means by that. It would also be weird to market the game with 4 clones.

If I'm remembering this correctly, the co-op characters are literal reskins of Arno: They have the same proportions, animations, clothes and gear as whatever their players are using, but they swap out the face and skin textures from the other players' points of view. Each of the individual players still sees themselves as Arno.

 

[Authority]

This is the kind of post that will never convince anyone of anything. It's great that you're passionate about this, but you really can't do anything but preach to the choir with the tone that you're taking.

In fact, you're bound to drive people to the opposite conclusion when they read a post like that. Be confident in the strength of your position. Employing bad rhetorical tactics only makes your position look flimsy. If you have to attack other posters to prove that you're right, then most people won't find your argument very persuasive.

We have reached 22 pages and people have gone into great depths providing the necessary information. There is no excuse to be "concerned" anymore because things are perfectly clear since the beginning regardless if some other posters wanted to turn this into a "white man hate thread" to derail the topic or throw in the "Devpity" excuse so they can hide behind it and save face-value.

Exactly.

You don't really want an objective discussion about this, do you?

Women don't need an objective discussion to be included into video games but you don't want to see that. Nor do they need your permission nor they need approval from the male gaming community. So yeah I don't want an objective discussion because there is nothing objective about it. You either want women into video games or not.

Most people that wanted to discuss this were hoping that other people, you know the ones in *cough* doubts would understand such a basic issue. We have gone over every single *cough* doubt and *cough* concern so again either you want women to be included or you don't. You have no excuse right now to play the middle man or find the last rock on earth to hide behind it.

But if you need 100 of pages to understand that then obviously it is not about discussion.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

With a twitter name with "feminist" in it I wouldn't have expected anything less. I don't have a problem with it, and it pleases a wider majority of people.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

The complaints about the New Lara character I don't understand. I believe if the writers kept her as a one dimentional total badass (I'd argue the new Lara is still a badass) we'd hear complaining that she is an shallow female character. So in this case the writers gave her origin story a more human and realistic response to encountering tragedy, fear, injury and self preservation and suddenly she's weak?
I love the depth of character they gave her and really enjoyed her growth and tenacity throughout the game. I never saw her as weak, but saw her as a real human attempting to survive a truly horrific scenario.
I sometimes wonder if people would still complain about the character had the quote "You'll want to protect her" never been uttered.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

I sometimes wonder if people would still complain about the character had the quote "You'll want to protect her" never been uttered.

I never understood this line, myself.

Edit: Well crap, I wrote out a few paragraphs above about not really being emotionally attached to the avatar I was playing, so if anything I'm protecting myself, and why would I want myself to die so I'd have start a level again bla bla bla...

Then I remembered playing through The Walking Dead and actually caring about Lee, so that kinda threw my argument out the window. I suppose it comes down to how good the writing is, and as Tomb Raider's story and dialog was nothing special, the need to protect Laura really meant nothing, at least to me.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

I never understood this line, myself.

Edit: Well crap, I wrote out a few paragraphs above about not really being emotionally attached to the avatar I was playing, so if anything I'm protecting myself, and why would I want myself to die so I'd have start a level again bla bla bla...

Then I remembered playing through The Walking Dead and actually caring about Lee, so that kinda threw my argument out the window. I suppose it comes down to how good the writing is, and as Tomb Raider's story and dialog was nothing special, the need to protect Laura really meant nothing, at least to me.

Personaly I'd say the meaning behind that quote was lost and misunderstood due to cultural differences. If I remember right the person that gave the quote is French or French-Canadian. It isn't impossible to suggest that English being his second language, his true meaning could have been muddied.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE TWD, (it is one of my favorite games of this past gen), but I would say it is more of an interactive story than a game like TR. I'd feel comfortable in saying feeling attachment for Lee and being shook up if something should happen to that him doesn't negate your argument of not feeling attached to an avatar.

 

[mcflyOS]

There are a lot of white men in the world + games often take place in regions where white people are the majority + the vast majority of game developers are white men + the biggest markets for videogames are mostly white men + white people have had a huge impact on worldwide culture + we're all racist.

 

[-COOLIO-]

As a minority myself, I really could not care less. I'm much more concerned with actual gameplay versus how my character looks.

everyone knows gameplay is king but there's other stuff to talk about too.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think it's time to repost this quote by Neil Druckmann:

Game reviews and editorials constantly reference her work when discussing the treatment of women in games.

Many developers now have a greater understanding of character tropes and the shortcomings they can lead to.

I know for me, Anita’s work was highly influential in my approach to writing for The Last of Us – greatly improving its story.

So, here we have a white male AAA game creator and writer who says his writing was influenced by Anita's activism. We have a direct, concrete example of her activism doing something to the industry.

The complaints about the New Lara character I don't understand. I believe if the writers kept her as a one dimentional total badass (I'd argue the new Lara is still a badass) we'd hear complaining that she is an shallow female character. So in this case the writers gave her origin story a more human and realistic response to encountering tragedy, fear, injury and self preservation and suddenly she's weak?
I love the depth of character they gave her and really enjoyed her growth and tenacity throughout the game. I never saw her as weak, but saw her as a real human attempting to survive a truly horrific scenario.
I sometimes wonder if people would still complain about the character had the quote "You'll want to protect her" never been uttered.

I don't like nu-Lara not because she has vulnerable moments or has a fleshed out backstory or whatever. I don't like her because her actual origin story is complete crap. The idea itself is fine, but the execution fell very flat. I'm not saying that makes anything sexist, mind you. Just that the story sucks and her personality is boring as all hell. She's not a "problematic" character, but that doesn't make her a good one.

 

[Oersted]

Because white men dominate the consumer market. It's about making money not caring about feelings.

http://thegrio.com/2011/11/11/blacks-play-games-but-dont-design-them/

This is getting boring

 

[Ilúvatar]

So, here we have a white male AAA game creator and writer who says his writing was influenced by Anita's activism. We have a direct, concrete example of her activism doing something to the industry.

After reading some of her E3 livetweets, I don't think we should act like that is a good thing.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

The complaints about the New Lara character I don't understand. I believe if the writers kept her as a one dimentional total badass (I'd argue the new Lara is still a badass) we'd hear complaining that she is an shallow female character. So in this case the writers gave her origin story a more human and realistic response to encountering tragedy, fear, injury and self preservation and suddenly she's weak?
I love the depth of character they gave her and really enjoyed her growth and tenacity throughout the game. I never saw her as weak, but saw her as a real human attempting to survive a truly horrific scenario.
I sometimes wonder if people would still complain about the character had the quote "You'll want to protect her" never been uttered.

What I dislike about the new Lara is the central premise that she needed a motivation to be a bad ass in the first place.
There are plenty of (male, obviously) bad ass characters that are just dropped into a game without a second thought as to why they can do what they do without breaking a sweat.

Lara used to be one of them. But, unusually, female.

Its sort of irksome that when rebooting the series someone felt the need to justify her bad assness, because she obviously couldn't just be like that off her own bat.

EDIT:
Its not like the upcoming Halo remake is going to feature a prologue of master chief being bullied at school, having an absentee father, and a deep-seated inferiority complex to justify his motivations in the games, is it?

 

[Zaru]

http://thegrio.com/2011/11/11/blacks-play-games-but-dont-design-them/

This is getting boring

The article claims they buy more games, but provides no evidence of this. They only refer to "more playtime".

My 700 hours in Team Fortress 2 didn't make Valve any money, the other 700 hours spent playing 5-10 hour games that I bought on Steam did.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The thing I find neat is that back in the days of Atari 2600/5200 sometimes the box art showed white man saving white girl. The punch line is that when you played the game you were just a colored block.

Anyway, some people you will never satisfy. Make a game with a white guy main character and have more than 25% of the enemies black guys and it would be called racist.