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[flatearthpandas]

Well, I'm a published writer, and I disagree with you. There's a ton of stuff we write that has no basis in reality. I've never met a Harvest Goddess who uses the blood of dying men to stay alive, and yet I've written that story.

But that doesn't actually have anything to do with what we're discussing, because every writer on the planet knows how to write women and non-white characters, because they know how to write human beings. That's all women and non-white people are -- human beings. They don't need any special knowledge to write.

No one is asking for a white suburban kid to write the definitive black novel. You don't have to write about the "black experience". You just have to write about a human being, doing what human beings do.

What you don't seem to get is that this idea that women and non-whites are "other" is the actual problem here.

I guess I'll pull my "published writer" card too. I don't think that there is much validity to be had in pointing to fantasy or sci-fi as "proof" that we can all write convincing characters not based on our experiences. Using my "person who can read card," I hate to report in that these fantasy characters are usually not really different from any other characters in the story, minus some superficial cosmetic changes. And the other characters in the story are often people who share the same race and culture as the author, while the MC generally shares the same gender.

For background characters, you can certainly write minorities like that. You can make a ship mechanic with one line a woman extremely easily, but is that really the issue? Are we concerned that there are not enough minorities in throwaway roles? That the extras of the video game world are not diverse enough?

I was under the impression that we wanted minority representation in characters that actually mattered. Characters that are meant to be scrutinized not, unfortunately, by people who have never seen a blood-drinking harvest goddess, but by people who actually are part of the minority being written or at least have had real-world interactions with them. If you write these minorities as "a white man with black skin" or as "a white man with a vagina" then people will and do notice. At that point, you're better off just sticking to writing a white man so that at least the fact that the character is obviously a white man anyway doesn't distract anyone.

As always, this is not to say white men can't write convincing characters that are or different races, genders, class and/or culture. Of course they can, if they have the knowledge and experience with what they're trying to write and the empathy to understand them. But the virtue of being human gives them none of these things.

All that said, we're talking videogames. Even a transparent palette swap would be a huge step for diversity at this stage. For my part, I think we would be better off having more diverse writers and directors, rather than just "better" ones if what we want is a truly diverse universe of characters.

 

[Orochinagis]

where's mexican men in videogames?

You cant put a mexican without people reaction to put him a sombrero and a sarape with some random spanish words and beer.

 

[AHUGECAT]

90% of people who game on Xbox and PlayStation are male. 67% for Nintendo consoles.

 

[Zakalwe]

I guess I'll pull my "published writer" card too. I don't think that there is much validity to be had in pointing to fantasy or sci-fi as "proof" that we can all write convincing characters not based on our experiences. Using my "person who can read card," I hate to report in that these fantasy characters are usually not really different from any other characters in the story, minus some superficial cosmetic changes. And the other characters in the story are often people who share the same race and culture as the author, while the MC generally shares the same gender.

For background characters, you can certainly write minorities like that. You can make a ship mechanic with one line a woman extremely easily, but is that really the issue? Are we concerned that there are not enough minorities in throwaway roles? That the extras of the video game world are not diverse enough?

I was under the impression that we wanted minority representation in characters that actually mattered. Characters that are meant to be scrutinized not, unfortunately, by people who have never seen a blood-drinking harvest goddess, but by people who actually are part of the minority being written or at least have had real-world interactions with them. If you write these minorities as "a white man with black skin" or as "a white man with a vagina" then people will and do notice. At that point, you're better off just sticking to writing a white man so that at least the fact that the character is obviously a white man anyway doesn't distract anyone.

As always, this is not to say white men can't write convincing characters that are or different races, genders, class and/or culture. Of course they can, if they have the knowledge and experience with what they're trying to write and the empathy to understand them. But the virtue of being human gives them none of these things.

All that said, we're talking videogames. Even a transparent palette swap would be a huge step for diversity at this stage. For my part, I think we would be better off having more diverse writers and directors, rather than just "better" ones if what we want is a truly diverse universe of characters.

Thank you for this post, articulated what I was clearly having trouble articulating.

 

[MYeager]

I'm not saying I couldn't imagine it, I'm just saying that were I to write a character affected by something like that every day type of racism (the looks certain people might give, subtle shits in tone of voice when moving from speaking to a whit to a black person, etc...), I can understand that but I don't really have anything equivalent that I've experienced, so I would research into it more to get a better understanding.

I mean, I've seen a bunch of films that deal with this, and Iv'e read some a few books, but it's definitely an area I would need to understand more before I could write it well.

I've been attacked before, I've been singled out for things, but there are nuances involved in the different situations I would like to understand more before I invest in writing them.

I would have thought most other writers would want to do that too, perhaps I'm not cut out for this writing stuff...

Hey, I completely agree with that. I was arguing against the idea that it's impossible to be able to write from a different perspective or about something without first hand experience.

 

[Zakalwe]

Hey, I completely agree with that. I was arguing against the idea that it's impossible to be able to write from a different perspective or about something without first hand experience.

I think people have different definitions of "you can only write what you know", which is the issue here.

 

[besada]

We're clearly reading different science fiction and fantasy. It's been awhile since I read anything in either genre that didn't have significant -- frequently POV -- characters outside of the writer's demographic.

 

[ab.aeterno]

I think people have different definitions of "you can only write what you know", which is the issue here.

I would tend to agree.

 

[jon bones]

GRRM on writing women:

'Yes, you're right I've never been an eight year old girl,' he says, 'but I've also never been an exiled princess, or a dwarf or bastard. What I have been is human. I just write human characters.'

if you have trouble writing characters who aren't white males then improve your writing skills

90% of people who game on Xbox and PlayStation are male. 67% for Nintendo consoles.

sources?

 

[Symbiotx]

Does it really matter? Just make a good character, who cares what color they are. 2 of my favorite recent games were red-headed females. In Destiny I'm going to be a robot. One of my favorite vita games has a Mexican hero. I've been playing Valiant Hearts where one of the main characters is a black male, one is a female. I really don't think there's an issue of not enough non-white other than male characters. I would say that I notice more variety lately than ever before.

 

[Zakalwe]

Does it really matter? Just make a good character, who cares what color they are. 2 of my favorite recent games were red-headed females. In Destiny I'm going to be a robot. One of my favorite vita games has a Mexican hero. I've been playing Valiant Hearts where one of the main characters is a black male, one is a female. I really don't think there's an issue of not enough non-white other than male characters. I would say that I notice more variety lately than ever before.

Not in AAA gaming, there's a distinct lack of diversity in the main character role.

And games with character creators obviously don't count. We're talking about specific character driven narratives.

 

[SolidSnakex]

sources?

This was conducted in 2010, but it seems like few do platform breakdowns when it comes to research like this

Also here's a gender brekadown for specific games/companies

 

[MYeager]

I think people have different definitions of "you can only write what you know", which is the issue here.

Probably a breakdown in communication.

Regardless as a medium it seems strange to me that video games not only have the same white male character so often, it's that it is still typically the same story regardless over and over again. It's usually a poor revenge story or a crappy version of The Hero's Journey. A different poster brought up needing more diversity in the writers and directors, and I agree, but would add that I'd like to see more people from outside of the industry who don't have preconceived notions of what is or isn't a video game be brought in. Because right now we have the ability to create digital fantasy worlds limited only by imagination but the only 'fun' way to interact within them is by killing everything. I mean I'm a fan of those games too but it feels reductive of the medium when that's most of what we're doing with it.

 

[Redrop]

Video games, regardless and irrespective of what some people might wish them to be, are big business. No more, no less.

They do not shape society; they reflect it. This thread is a riot of Band-Aids and Bactine.

That is some intense myopia right there.

Any medium that receives public attention has the potential to shape society, right down to the smallest denominator. Also, have you ever heard of the reinforcement theory?

 

[jon bones]

This was conducted in 2010, but it seems like few do platform breakdowns when it comes to research like this

thanks! looks like those "pc master race" nutjobs were right all along

 

[Polioliolio]

And I'm not arguing you can't or shouldn't necessarily, but we need to acknowledge the problem created when the majority does and says the same with their creative endeavors, and are themselves the majority. And if you only ever write yourself, your writing won't grow.

I acknowledge that the problem exists because there are an overwhelming amount of white men in the creative process. To another extent, corporate control may be involved, but let's focus on the former aspect of it..

If this is indeed a big part of the issue, it's not something we can just fix by talking about. Sure, some people will challenge themselves further, game writers will become more experienced and may be willing to take on such challenges, etc... but will you point at the inexperienced, or even bad (but earnest) writers, and say "You are the problem!"?

The problem is there aren't women and minorities in gaming. Let's work on fixing that problem by encouraging education. Something else we can do is have our daughters and younger sisters join in on the gaming.. they may aspire to be involved more so than women are now, and the ball might get rolling.. Heck, it's already rolling.. But complaining about it isn't going to help so much as encouragement and promotion.

For now, I think it's harsh to point out the everyman game designer who isn't willing, or able, to do much more than make his game's protagonist a reflection of himself.

I totally welcome more diversity in game protagonists, for sure, and I think we're already seeing more, but I would say to the people complaining about the issue, "Get involved on the development level. Work your way into a team of designers and make the game you want to see!"

 

[Laconic]

That is some intense myopia right there.

Any medium that receives public attention has the potential to shape society, right down to the smallest denominator. Also, have you ever heard of the reinforcement theory?

No. Intense myopia is a lack of understanding how utterly irrelevant the hobby of video gaming is to the majority of the world's peoples, their lives, and life in general.

Video games are not going to effect a change in the social order. Full stop. It is not a cruel calculus; it is simple math.

 

[TGO]

Tomb Raider
Mirrors Edge
Beyond Good and Evil
Final Fantasy XIII Trilogy
Final Fantasy VI
Beyond Two Souls
Metriod
Resident Evil 1 2 3 and Code Veronica
Heavenly Sword
XenoSaga Trilogy
Fatal Frame/Project Zero
Daylight
Bayonetta 1/2
The Longest Journey series
Clock Tower series
Syberia series
The list goes on.
And then theres the not so well known

 

[besada]

A list of cherry picked games adds nothing to this discussion, not to mention that similar lists have already been posted and discussed. If you can't be bothered to read and follow the thread, go elsewhere and let those who can have a conversation.

 

[Redrop]

No. Intense myopia is a lack of understanding how utterly irrelevant the hobby of video gaming is to the majority of the world's peoples, their lives, and life in general.

Video games are not going to effect a change in the social order. Full stop. It is not a cruel calculus; it is simple math.

I do believe you just reinvented the definition of that word.

So a medium that often carries stories, one of the most innately apt and transmissible modes of information, cannot affect society. Huh. That's a new one.

 

[Zakalwe]

No. Intense myopia is a lack of understanding how utterly irrelevant the hobby of video gaming is to the majority of the world's peoples, their lives, and life in general.

Video games are not going to effect a change in the social order. Full stop. It is not a cruel calculus; it is simple math.

Change isn't likely going to spring from a single source. It will be gradual, and ubiquitous. It's going to spread around from point to point and slowly grow.

Here is as good a place to make a start as any.

 

[ZdkDzk]

Tomb Raider
Mirrors Edge
Beyond Good and Evil
Final Fantasy XIII Trilogy
Final Fantasy VI
Beyond Two Souls
Metriod
Resident Evil 1 2 3 and Code Veronica
Heavenly Sword
XenoSaga Trilogy
Fatal Frame/Project Zero
Daylight
Bayonetta 1/2
The Longest Journey series
Clock Tower series
Syberia series
The list goes on.
And then theres the not so well known

The majority of those games were developed in a different country, with different gender and color politics. You can't really discuss those (maybe comparatively) unless you understand their view on the subject.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

I've read through this thread and I think it'd interesting to hear a developer join in and give their reason for certain characters being the way hey are. I know it's not going to happen but coming up with theories or posting pictures of a developers work office and their staff doesn't really add much outside of speculation.
Would be interesting to hear what Cliff Blezinski would say since Gears is very diverse or Kamiya on why he made Bayonetta and are female characters a challenge to create and market towards the female audience?

 

[silvermember]

Seriously. In some cases, it might matter. It'd be weird to have a black or white or Native American character in a Romance of the 3 Kingdoms game, for sure. But for the most part, race or gender wouldn't affect the "suitability" at all.


Yup, it's always "shoehorning" when it's a minority character, but it's never shoehorning when it's a straight white male.

I agree.

Romance of the the 3 kingdoms Is based on specific characters from a very specific culture, from a specific place, all those things are predefined by virtue of the story, culture and location it was written in. the character race or ethnicity actually matters since it is a historic novel from a very specific culture. In those case the race of the character actually is relevant given the location the story is about.

Most games however do no meet that requirement. Changing the character's race or gender in watch dog isn't suddenly going to affect the story in any meaningful way like it would for a historic novel.

 

[AHUGECAT]

GRRM on writing women:

'Yes, you're right I've never been an eight year old girl,' he says, 'but I've also never been an exiled princess, or a dwarf or bastard. What I have been is human. I just write human characters.'

if you have trouble writing characters who aren't white males then improve your writing skills



sources?

Well I mean let's face it, how many women you know play PlayStation and Xbox? Not many. That's why so many games are geared towards men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...most-popular-console-among-female-gamers.html The newest source I could find... but I have no reason to believe it would be any different today. Kinect had a chance but Microsoft blew it.

I've played thousands of Halo matches, Call of Duty... and rarely ever, ever, come in contact with a female there. They are primarily male dominated games. Same with Grand Theft Auto, Assassin's Creed, etc. etc. Compare this to Animal Crossing which has a MAJORITY female userbase. Super Mario also seems to have a sizable female userbase.

Sony and Microsoft really need to start doing something to attract a more diverse group of gamers. The Wii was perfect - except Nintendo kinda just gave up on it after 2010 for some reason. The PS2 was close, especially with the EyeToy, but not quite there yet. The DS and 3DS though seems super popular with females.

Heavy Rain I thought could've been a HUGE hit with women, if bundled with Move right away and advertised with such. Never happened unfortunately. Something like that could attract a huge women base. Also, animal crossing style games as well. So unless you're Nintendo or a PC/Mobile-only developer, 90% of your fanbase is likely male so that's why they focus on them.

I am not entirely sure on racial demographics, however. But I do know outside Japan the vast majority of employees are Caucasian.

 

[stupei]

Unless obliged to, most creators probably would just go with what comes to them, and what probably comes to them for their game character is an extension of themselves into other roles.

Those assassins in Italy are just white dudes in the role of assassins in Italy. As if the creators though 'Okay, now I have to imagine myself as an assassin in Italy'.


I agree about doing consulting where necessary, particularly on a large scale, AAA budget, but it's so much easier, and most importantly, more natural, for these white game creators to make white characters, and I think it's hard to fault them for doing what comes naturally in that way. I'm not saying they shouldn't challenge themselves, but you can't force the hand of a creator, just because..


Creating isn't easy, and I understand how it could be difficult, even uncomfortable, to try to design and write for characters outside of your gender and race.. especially with all the baggage that comes with it.


I'm totally for more diversity in games, and am interested to play as a more diverse cast of characters, but as a creator, it's a much more difficult concept to undertake than you'd think.

Sorry this response is so belated. Work happened.

But the idea that women or people of color are so outside the norm of the experience of a white male that it's easier to imagine what it'd be like to live in another century in a different country with a different culture doing a different job than it is to try to wrap your head around being female is a pretty big problem that lack of diversity in media only exacerbates.

It's easy for women or poc to imagine what it's like to be a white man. Go to job interviews and the person doing the hiring is often male (and frequently white). You have to understand their perspective and point of view to make yourself a more desirable candidate. Go to a bank. Look at the majority of political figures who will be representing your interests on a national level. If you went to school in America, most of the heroes in your history books are white men -- though it's not as though they are the only figures to have appeared in history -- and if you're a woman of any race, walking the streets at any time, you are essentially always aware of the male gaze as you do your best to keep yourself safe.

If a poc or a woman reads a lot or sees many movies in theaters, they have understood and empathized with the white male perspective. The same goes for gay people being able to understand and, to a degree, relate to a story about straight people, even if they would prefer or relate better with something LGBTQ.

Are women and poc super evolved highly empathetic individuals with an inherently superior imagination to white men? Or do we just know how to relate with the white male protagonist because we had to try -- because those were the options we were left with?

Do you think that maybe it wouldn't be so hard if white writers would just... try? I never really understand this idea that video games are an art form where creative expression and purity of intent must be preserved, but at the same time creators should be shielded from criticism, taking risks, or ever bothering to try something outside the omnipotent white male archetype on the hero's journey.

Well I mean let's face it, how many women you know play PlayStation and Xbox? Not many. That's why so many games are geared towards men.

I remember a Nintendo conference where they quoted a statistic that while roughly 40% of the gaming population is female, women make up over 60% of Nintendo's own userbase.

Now while I'm sure many people would rush to scoff and laugh over casuals and Wii-bowling grandmothers -- which is probably a reaction that should be unpacked at a later time -- I think a big part of the appeal of NIntendo to women isn't inherently that it's "cute" or "kiddy" but that it acknowledges the existence of female gamers. More than any other major company, Nintendo has been making an effort toward inclusiveness of female characters in games, and female gamers have responded with interest.

And to answer your question: a lot of (other) women I know play games, but most of them do it on PC or 3DS.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I admit that it is interesting to see that under the guise of "majority makers" and "audience", people are inclined to think that departing from said "safe' traditional characters amounts to not being a big deal, even being blasphemous. I figured that artists would portray different characters within the contexts of the story, of what the character must really be like, or at least create something new and unseen for audiences to appreciate and experience at rare.

But you know, the suits make the safe decisions. These industries all have the same problem, they ride the waves.

 

[Servbot24]

Tomb Raider
Mirrors Edge
Beyond Good and Evil
Final Fantasy XIII Trilogy
Final Fantasy VI
Beyond Two Souls
Metriod
Resident Evil 1 2 3 and Code Veronica
Heavenly Sword
XenoSaga Trilogy
Fatal Frame/Project Zero
Daylight
Bayonetta 1/2
The Longest Journey series
Clock Tower series
Syberia series
The list goes on.
And then theres the not so well known

No one has made the claim that no video game in the world has a female character. The claim is that there is an absurdly imbalanced ratio. For every game starring a female protag there are at least 100 with male protags.

 

[cm osi]

Kamiya on why he made Bayonetta and are female characters a challenge to create and market towards the female audience?

probably this

 

[Oersted]

To the "straight white males only can write straight white males" crowd:

You do realize how bland most of these characters are written? That it isn't such a effort to replace them?

 

[Freeman]

Start buying the games that have female protagonist if that is what you are after, fucking simple(there is hardly a shortage of those now).

Personalty I couldn't care less if the game has a male of female protagonist, as long as it is good I'll get it,but I'll admit that a bad-ass female character is hard to beat.

Also, woman better start shaving their heads or start wearing beanies if they are really committed to be represented in games, devs aren't that fond of long hair.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

wow.

Wow what? It has been getting better (i.e., more diverse) in recent years for Movies and TV. But it was white male protagonist all around up until very recently.

 

[Freeman]

double post.

 

[besada]

Start buying the games that have female protagonist if that is what you are after, fucking simple(there is hardly a shortage of those now).

Already do, but I can talk about it, too. I prefer my fiction, in every medium, to have a little variety. So I buy games/books/movies that do that. But I also discuss it on discussion forums, because I find that useful and interesting as well.

The idea that there's a single right answer is silly. There are multiple right answers. Awareness is one. Increasing the diversity of developers is another. Economic arguments (boycotting or preferring certain treatments) are yet another. Fortunately, we don't have to choose.

 

[Polioliolio]

To the "straight white males only can write straight white males" crowd:

You do realize how bland most of these characters are written? That it isn't such a effort to replace them?

One aspiring game developer in this thread, actually said he'd probably make his protagonist male, close to home, etc. I think he may have actually been arguing for diversity, but still said this. I did the same for my lame comic I'm coming up with.

It's just what we naturally want to make I guess. Maybe when we get better, more experienced, we'll try something else.

I'm just saying if we're up in arms, we shouldn't be picking on the every[white]man who happens to throw a white man into their game as the main character.

These designers aren't the problem so much as the lack of better writers and/or minority writers, is a problem. And you can't fix that by harping on the white dudes whose writing and design you don't think is very inspired.

Also, even if these stories/characters are coming off as bland, Surely the designers don't happen to think that way about their work. They're probably trying hard and if that's the best they can do, so be it. I'm not defending them from criticism, but they really are free to do what they want (or what the publisher wants).

Like I said earlier, if you're passionate about getting minority characters into games, I don't think it's a stretch for you to get involved in game development. Hang out on an indie game design forum and start communicating with these designers. I'd also suggest you start doing some writing of your own and see what people think, or do some brainstorming on some game concepts and characters, and start practicing what you're preaching.

Personally, the game I'm brewing is something I so desperately want to play because I never see anything like it. I'm sick to death of shooters and what I'd call bland scifi, and so on. If you don't like what you see, you gotta get your hands dirty and get involved.

 

[silvermember]

90% of people who game on Xbox and PlayStation are male. 67% for Nintendo consoles.

If I don't like what is being served in a Chinese restaurant why would I go into it?

There are a lot of reason why they are not that many woman playing games or in game development and that is because the environment isn't really friendly to them in any regard. Online they get treated like shit, the characters do not relate to them or marginalize or exist solely to be sexual.

 

[Kater]

probably this

I'm completely okay with Kamiya putting some lascive Dominas in his games. I hope he never goes for the teenage boy cash by putting out some braindead, sexy female character like some do. Bayonetta is a good female character in my book and Kamiya has all my respect for letting a character like her be the protagonist of his work.

 

[Vicetrailia]

There's not much diversity among white characters. I think its about economics, hence these characters subscribing to a formula.

the industry is undervaluing the buying power of minorities and women. Racism and sexism is certainly within that element. Welcome to the world as they say.

 

[ced]

Because white adult males play those games

I think it's because the developers and publishers are mostly white males.

 

[Netherscourge]

Dora the Explorer.

Hispanic Female lead character.

Multiple games, TV shows and merchandise.

 

[Kater]

Dora the Explorer.

Hispanic Female lead character.

Multiple games, TV shows and merchandise.

The games are cheap cash-ins though, as is mostly every video game adaption of a TV series. A real shame though because I think that it is a great show for 3 - 6 year old children and could make for a good game. The potential is there, anyway.

 

[Oersted]

One aspiring game developer in this thread, actually said he'd probably make his protagonist male, close to home, etc. I think he may have actually been arguing for diversity, but still said this. I did the same for my lame comic I'm coming up with.

It's just what we naturally want to make I guess. Maybe when we get better, more experienced, we'll try something else.

I'm just saying if we're up in arms, we shouldn't be picking on the every[white]man who happens to throw a white man into their game as the main character.

These designers aren't the problem so much as the lack of better writers and/or minority writers, is a problem. And you can't fix that by harping on the white dudes whose writing and design you don't think is very inspired.

Also, even if these stories/characters are coming off as bland, Surely the designers don't happen to think that way about their work. They're probably trying hard and if that's the best they can do, so be it. I'm not defending them from criticism, but they really are free to do what they want (or what the publisher wants).

Like I said earlier, if you're passionate about getting minority characters into games, I don't think it's a stretch for you to get involved in game development. Hang out on an indie game design forum and start communicating with these designers. I'd also suggest you start doing some writing of your own and see what people think, or do some brainstorming on some game concepts and characters, and start practicing what you're preaching.

Personally, the game I'm brewing is something I so desperately want to play because I never see anything like it. I'm sick to death of shooters and what I'd call bland scifi, and so on. If you don't like what you see, you gotta get your hands dirty and get involved.

I do wonder, how much of a majority are straight white males?

 

[groshkar]

Already do, but I can talk about it, too. I prefer my fiction, in every medium, to have a little variety. So I buy games/books/movies that do that. But I also discuss it on discussion forums, because I find that useful and interesting as well.

The idea that there's a single right answer is silly. There are multiple right answers. Awareness is one. Increasing the diversity of developers is another. Economic arguments (boycotting or preferring certain treatments) are yet another. Fortunately, we don't have to choose.

I think this would be one of the more effective things to do, honestly, but isn't something that's going to produce results for years. How long from today would it be before the increased diversity from better education opportunities translates into a more diverse set of decision makers?

Hopefully the current renaissance of indie dev shops supplies some of the diversity, both of characters and gameplay ideas, previously supplied by "B" tier games which were gutted in the previous console cycle. Some of the AAA titles made 5 to 10 years down the road are going to come from some of these shops.

 

[thesolidshark]

The majority of those games were developed in a different country, with different gender and color politics. You can't really discuss those (maybe comparatively) unless you understand their view on the subject.

Does it really matter to gamers (who want the change in ratio) where the game comes from?

 

[besada]

I do wonder, how much of a majority are straight white males?

Not in line with the representation shown, which is one of the reasons this is such a bad argument. Hispanic gamers make up a portion somewhere in the thirties in the U.S., yet represent nowhere near that much of even the U.S. market's characters. Someone did a nice demographic breakdown, compared to the virtual census done for game characters, but I can't remember where I saw it. If someone else doesn't turn it up, I'll hunt it down tomorrow, when I'm not on the iPad.

 

[Lime]

Not in line with the representation shown, which is one of the reasons this is such a bad argument. Hispanic gamers make up a portion somewhere in the thirties in the U.S., yet represent nowhere near that much of even the U.S. market's characters. Someone did a nice demographic breakdown, compared to the virtual census done for game characters, but I can't remember where I saw it. If someone else doesn't turn it up, I'll hunt it down tomorrow, when I'm not on the iPad.

This?

It's by Dmitri Williams, Nicole Martins, Mia Consalvo and James D. Ivory in 2009.

Regarding playing behaviour, the Kaiser Family Foundation found that:

"Ethnicity and income level are indicators of video game playing, particularly among older kids ages 8-18: African American and Hispanic youth play more video games than White youth, and kids from low and middle income communities spend more time playing video games than kids from high income areas."

 

[Oersted]

Embarassingly beaten xD

Not in line with the representation shown, which is one of the reasons this is such a bad argument. Hispanic gamers make up a portion somewhere in the thirties in the U.S., yet represent nowhere near that much of even the U.S. market's characters. Someone did a nice demographic breakdown, compared to the virtual census done for game characters, but I can't remember where I saw it. If someone else doesn't turn it up, I'll hunt it down tomorrow, when I'm not on the iPad.

Yep. Most likely not the breakdown you are referring to, but the Kaiser Foundation had a couple of studies, which where showing that esp Afro Americans and Hispanics are more likely to play videogames than any other group.

 

[EscoBlades]

Well I mean let's face it, how many women you know play PlayStation and Xbox? Not many. That's why so many games are geared towards men.

NOPE! I happen to know PLENTY!

 

[Laconic]

I do believe you just reinvented the definition of that word.

So a medium that often carries stories, one of the most innately apt and transmissible modes of information, cannot affect society. Huh. That's a new one.

Your belief is wrong.

But that's not surprising in the slightest, given what else you've posted in this thread.

Video games, are not art. They are interactive media, produced by big business, with the primary, and foremost end-goal being monetary profit.

I'll leave it at this: I enjoy playing video games. I have enjoyed them for more than a single decade. At one time I was even what kids these days would call a hardcore gamer. But I've never considered them art. Nor did Ebert (R.I.P.). Nor would Kant.

Because they are not.

 

[jon bones]

Your belief is wrong.

...

Because they are not.

lol... that's not how arguing works