Why are there still so many white men in video games
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The Lamonster
Member
Why are there still so many white men on planet Earth?
In 2014 you have more choice than ever to play whatever kind of game you want. If you don't like games that feature white men, find something else to play.
In 2014 you have more choice than ever to play whatever kind of game you want. If you don't like games that feature white men, find something else to play.
Would be interesting to see how GTA's stats would change if there was a female protagonist, but I honestly can't imagine that it would add that many female players.Also here's a gender brekadown for specific games/companies
The point is them being the face of videogames. AAA mainstream is the face.
What is this?
ab.aeterno
Member
You should at least come out and say "who gives a shit?"
This isn't about hating games with white men, so if that's what you took away from this, I think you've rather missed the point.
the best part of these threads is the drive-by shit posts by people who are only too eager to out themselves as completely stupid
I just wanted to add here that descriptions of similarity/common physical features aren't "ideals" or "norms" they are tangible, immutable facts just like the fact that the sky is blue.
[update] If the sky is green in a piece of media the assumption is that it isn't earth or there's some extensive explanation, that will be revealed, about how the sky turned green. If the sky is green it's earth and there's no explanation of how or why people will question it and if they like the project or parts of it or spend good money on it, they're not going to sugar coat the fact that it's a problem, but I guess it's because you can't offend the sky?
AlwaysPlaying
Member
This topic...yet again...shoot me
am i the only one who doesn't give a shit when it comes to this stuff? like, i play games for entertainment and joy. what sex or color the person i'm playing as really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
and if anything, it's the characters personality that is the main factor in games.
and if anything, it's the characters personality that is the main factor in games.
No, you are a horrible racist piece of shit who is worse than Hitler for believing this.
Wiktor
Member
I don;t think that's true anymore. Maybe if you count every game ever made, then maybe, but even that's doubtful. For the last decade though? Nowhere near that. I doubt if there would be even twice as many male protags as female ones. The problem is that the media is concentrated solely on videogame equivalent of summer action movies, while ignoring everything else. In casual genre for example men are heavily underrepresented.
Of course the question is what is the cause of what. Are those lead characters made this way to appeal to their audience or does this audience is drawn to those games because of the lead character's gender. Personally I think gamers as a whole care more about the gameplay and genres though, so the former seems more likely.
t's only natural to expect devs to cater to their audiences, so altough I would like to see more females kicking-ass, at the same time expecting shooter or action devs to make half of their leads female makes zero sense. It will never get to that level untill female gamers make up half of the audience for those games, which I doubt they ever will, no matter how many women you put into those games. That's why I think lack of racial diversity is much bigger problem in terms of AAA games, as those people actually aren't represented as strongly as they should be considering the audience.
Best thing I've read all day.
Xenon
Member
It should matter a lot. For the sake of the thread topic, yes, it does matter because the reasons and mentality behind those reasons will vary. For the sake of actually changing the status quo, you have to be aware that you aren't just changing things to fit your sensibilities; moving towards something that doesn't catter to your culture alone.
(i.e. the phrase "let's put more Latinos in gaming" means nothing to the majority of the world, because they've never seen one in person.; why do so many Japanese games feature white protagonists)
thesolidshark
Member
So where would you prefer more games with more diversity come from? Japan? Western? Another specific country?
What kind of diversity are you looking for. I'd go with the America, because our media is probably the most far reaching and the most stagnant in terms of diversity. By that I mean we've got a status quoe that we won't generaly deviate from. Other countries will generally trend towards their dominant race (and gender is another discussion), but will still use other races, especially if they are a local minority. (i.e. Nigerians will sooner include french or asian characters than most other non-African nationalities). America has a hard time putting two black kids on a middle school tv show not dominated by a black cast.
ab.aeterno
Member
A+ contribution.
It's OK to not care, but that doesn't mean that other people caring is less valid. People care about different things. For example, I play games for fun. I play games for challenge. But I also play games that challenge me and make think and empathize.
If what their race/gender/etc. is doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter, then why do so many people resist making minority main characters? If it makes no difference, being inclusive shouldn't matter to you.
Clearly that's the position of everyone arguing to the contrary. I mean, I would have intimated he also kills puppies as well, but to each their own.
*cough*Lightning*cough*
The world is a big place, and the industry's primary regional markets are among the most diverse populations. What you say is simply not true, especially as you start factoring in the second-hand market, rentals, delayed markets, etc, etc.
It's one thing if the people making and funding games believe this to be true (which I strongly doubt, since it's their business to know their market), but it's a very sad state if those of us who spend so much time and energy playing games believe this, too.
Night Angel
Member
Except that the market research indicates that the majority of gamers in key markets are white males (for AAA style games).
The second-hand and rental markets are completely irrelevant for game makers because they see no profit from those markets. The people making these games DO know their markets, and they are tailoring their products to the majority in those markets. (Not that I don't want more diversity, of course.)
Citation needed.
I like how you are completely discrediting an entire group of consumers based entirely on their financial insignificance.
I've stayed out of this thread until now and god damn @ some of these posts.
Generally, I think the issue is a combination of risk-averse business policies and bad/lazy writers.
Publishers and execs, just like producers in a lot of other media, have cornered themselves into a line of thinking that says white males are their main audience. Where you need to ask questions is when it comes to cause and effect. Do white males just gravitate towards this media naturally? Do other groups simply not consume it because it doesn't appeal to them? Or even because it actively pushes them away? I've seen a lot of women talk about how they feel mainstream games are borderline hostile to them, not to mention online communities on consoles. Do we have data on how much having a female protagonist affects a game's appeal to women? Or how much having a non-white protagonist affects a game's appeal to people of color? Now this is purely anecdotal, but the women I know who play PlayStation and Xbox games pretty much gravitate towards RPGs -- the kinds with character creators. Basically what I'm saying is, it's highly possible markets outside white males are simply untested. You might say it's a vicious cycle at this point because audiences have already become accustomed to this status quo. And the issue is important because some people might be more attracted to media if they see their groups being represented in them. Why do you think they throw major black actors into Hollywood movies every once in a while? Transformers 4 probably spends so much screentime in
On the developer side I just think most people who make games aren't great at telling stories. Games aren't naturally a storytelling medium. Or if they are (or can be), then the industry is still in a stage where it's mostly run by engineers and producers, not artists. It's like a film industry where the camera technicians are the directors. They hire writers more and more commonly these days, but much of the time they have to write on top of game design already built, like a music composer would. The "they only write what they know" excuse applies only because most game makers aren't great writers.
Game development definitely needs to get more diverse, but that shouldn't be the only solution. Good writers should be able to write characters, even if those characters don't look like them. Those kinds of writers who are actually in control of game development are extremely rare. And the diversity thing brings me back to the possible repellent factor. One of the biggest issues people cite with tech is its lack of women and minorities.
Generally, I think the issue is a combination of risk-averse business policies and bad/lazy writers.
Publishers and execs, just like producers in a lot of other media, have cornered themselves into a line of thinking that says white males are their main audience. Where you need to ask questions is when it comes to cause and effect. Do white males just gravitate towards this media naturally? Do other groups simply not consume it because it doesn't appeal to them? Or even because it actively pushes them away? I've seen a lot of women talk about how they feel mainstream games are borderline hostile to them, not to mention online communities on consoles. Do we have data on how much having a female protagonist affects a game's appeal to women? Or how much having a non-white protagonist affects a game's appeal to people of color? Now this is purely anecdotal, but the women I know who play PlayStation and Xbox games pretty much gravitate towards RPGs -- the kinds with character creators. Basically what I'm saying is, it's highly possible markets outside white males are simply untested. You might say it's a vicious cycle at this point because audiences have already become accustomed to this status quo. And the issue is important because some people might be more attracted to media if they see their groups being represented in them. Why do you think they throw major black actors into Hollywood movies every once in a while? Transformers 4 probably spends so much screentime in
China to get that growing Chinese audience.
On the developer side I just think most people who make games aren't great at telling stories. Games aren't naturally a storytelling medium. Or if they are (or can be), then the industry is still in a stage where it's mostly run by engineers and producers, not artists. It's like a film industry where the camera technicians are the directors. They hire writers more and more commonly these days, but much of the time they have to write on top of game design already built, like a music composer would. The "they only write what they know" excuse applies only because most game makers aren't great writers.
Game development definitely needs to get more diverse, but that shouldn't be the only solution. Good writers should be able to write characters, even if those characters don't look like them. Those kinds of writers who are actually in control of game development are extremely rare. And the diversity thing brings me back to the possible repellent factor. One of the biggest issues people cite with tech is its lack of women and minorities.
I would also be interested in seeing where your research comes from. Common sense says you're wrong, but I'd happily eat crow if (reliable) research said otherwise. Worse, the second hand and rental markets are a significant (and notoriously difficult to quantify) chunk of the industry. Seems like shaky ground if you (or those in the business of making games) dismiss those markets out of hand.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Yes the largest segment of core new video game buyers are white men 18-34. they spend the most.
That said, the last tewo amazing games I completed both starred red headed woman... Child of Light and Transistor.
Maaaaan, it feels good to be able to enjoy what you want and have lots of choices
That said, the last tewo amazing games I completed both starred red headed woman... Child of Light and Transistor.
Maaaaan, it feels good to be able to enjoy what you want and have lots of choices
This article by Adrienne Shaw provides some insights into these question.
If you're interested in mor, then Shaw's dissertation should help shed some light on these questions, in case you're interested. Her qualitative data provides some insights.
Quality assessment right there. Good post.
Probably about as much as COD Ghost sales rose after they added female characters to the MP, therefore by some peoples logic opening the game to this untapped female market the previous games didnt get in on.
So in other words not at all.
Its hilarious when people say that publishers would only benefit from having multiple race & gender character choices. Its just dishonest because its literally based off of nothing and the people saying it know it. There's no precedence showing this, is just a dumb thing some people say because they think talking money and a bigger market will suddenly get publishers attention.
They're sort of right in a sense though, publishers do care about money and selling to more people, they just know that adding female characters wont automatically achieve that. If it did they'd force devs to do it.
Creating additional playable female character models, additional female variants of all alt outfits, animating them & hiring additional female voice actors to parrot all of the main characters script just isnt financially viable or beneficial because it doesnt rise sales and the people who buy the games are ok with playing as man.
This whole "opening the market" argument is horse shit.
dutchguyjack
Member
There's one flaw in your argument. If the gender and race of the character didn't matter for appeal, wouldn't we be seeing a wider variety of genders and races in video games in general?
The reason we're seeing so many male white characters in games is because that's what they believe appeals to gamers. If they believed that a different type of character wouldn't have an effect on sales, I'm pretty sure there'd be more variety.
So naturally, different genders and races appeal to different people, but the industry has been so effective at alienating certain groups that putting certain types of characters as a lead has a negative impact on sales, simply because the people who would have enjoyed playing and identifying with those characters have exited the industry as a result of feeling left out.
The last bit is obviously speculation, but it's certainly within the realm of possibilities that women never bothered to get into video games because they simply can't identify with the characters on the screen. In turn, that'll make it less likely that they'll try games again, which in turn means that that one game which does it differently gets overlooked.
I didnt say it doesnt matter for appeal, i said that offering the choice doesnt raise sales, which is what some people are trying to argue.
Because the majority of people who play games based around main characters are white men. The majority of people making these games are white men. As far as race goes its pretty much a numbers game, video games are most popular in the US & western Europe, where the majority of men are white. So yeah, its pretty normal that games are made with characters that resemble the majority of people who'll actually be putting down money to buy the games. I'm not saying that a game with a black character will instantly fail, but white men are a safer bet.
A lot of Asians play video games, i guess someone might want to tell them that they should slow down because they're being "alienated" because they're not white men. I've already explained for black people, games are more popular in places where they're minorities, so unsurprisingly a minority of black people play games. The whole point of my original post was that having a black character choice doesnt raise sales. So no, even if a game makes the effort of including them, they arent suddenly flocking to it. Like i said the whole "Opening the market" argument is baseless horse shit.
You're damn right.
No. You know what, Here is an actual women who doesnt like video games explaining why.
"I dont want to go around shooting people, and ripping off their heads. Its just gross".
Women arent interested in games because they dont enjoy the base content, it has nothing to do with not being able to relate to the main character. Men enjoy war games, and virtual gore & violence. Women a lot less. But i'm sure there are games women do prefer, ones like, maybe, puzzles?
Also here's a gender brekadown for specific games/companies
Oh well hey! Whaddya know! Companies that specialise in puzzle games have more women playing them than men! Surprise surprise.
Variety is the spice of life, as they say, so wouldn't more diversity in characters in video games potentially increase the entertainment you value above other considerations?
Also, saying that it "doesn't mean anything" shows you're seeing these things in a "token" way. People of different backgrounds can bring alternate perspectives and unique personality aspects, and would effectively mean something.
You do realize there's a whole subsection of games made by Asians with Asian characters and that we're talking about the multicultural American market, yes?
You're also aware that said games made by Asians still manage healthy sales in America, right?
You also realize that you categorized an entire gender based on the reaction of one person, correct?
And you're also aware that you're grossly overgeneralizing and stereotyping every single subject you're discussing to the point of parody, I'm sure?
But when was that decided? I didn't want to mention it because I'm sure someone has already posted it in this thread, but Polygon did a feature article talking about how advertising for things like toys and games was is centered on boys because people decided it should be that way back in the 70's and 80's, and it's simply become an ingrained status quo almost no one is willing to deviate from. Is the idea that "young white males buy the most media," really just a constant of physics? I don't think anybody is saying increased diversity absolutely will increase sales by a lot, but people are saying markets outside young white men are pretty much untested at this point.
As for the regional thing, the focus on North America, Western Europe, and Japan is leaving out like three quarters of the planet. That can't remain the norm forever (and isn't). I imagine as economies get better in other parts of the world we'll start to see that change, hopefully in terms of both development and audiences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg
Its sells the most, the games/storys are more suited to white men - this is what the suites, devs and pubs probably think.
But I would of loved to of seen the female equivalent of Trevor in GTA5.
Its sells the most, the games/storys are more suited to white men - this is what the suites, devs and pubs probably think.
But I would of loved to of seen the female equivalent of Trevor in GTA5.
Traditional games like shooters and the like have already featured non-white & female main characters, the result was no increase in sales outside of the standard "white male" market. As i've already said, CoD Ghosts didnt double in sales because you could now play as women in MP. The market has been tested.
As for marketing, i havent seen that Polygon article but things get marketed depending on what they are. Most games are about war and shooting and violence which is something that appeals to boys & men and very little to girls. You may as well be saying that Barbie is sexist because it isnt marketed towards boys. Context is more important to people than who the ads are directed at and what race and gender the main character is.
The other 3 quarters of the planet dont buy many video games, therefore publishers dont really care. Sure things might change in the future, but why should be care about that now, in the present? Companies deal with the current market, not possible ones in the distant future that may or may not happen.
It's not completely untested though. As the gender breakdown picture showed women at the moment tend to play more puzzle and simulation style games and the audience for AAA games like GTA is mostly still men. So the question is can you appeal to different audiences that are now playing different games without alienating your current audience? Possibly but that part is as you say untested. I'm all for it if done well as we could do with some more variety for sure. But I'm not sure if I can blame companies for playing it safe with million dollar investments.
I don't think a gender option would alienate much of the current audience. (An exclusive female lead might though). But if your goal is having the main character be female then I'm not sure if that's always an option. For example would anyone want to be able to select the gender for Snake? For a lot of other games it's fine though. I'd be absolutely fine with having a gender option for Link. But I see the Borderlands devs getting a lot of praise for making half of their character options female and while that is cool the Borderlands games aren't exactly known for their characterization. It's easy to make the playable character anything you want when the playable character basically isn't a character at all. Just a skin and a set of powers. That's not always an option as I said.
Also, haven't there been quite a few tv series with toys aimed at young girls since the 70s/80s? I'm not 100% sure but those tend to sell less toys as well? It's not as simple as the toys not being marketed to girls but feel free to prove me wrong.
The problem is that AAA video game publishers consciously cater more towards straight, male players. Most AAA games are designed for that demographic with only very few exceptions (for example The Sims or - maybe - the Mass Effect games) so no, adding female characters to a game which was designed from the ground-up for an average male demographic is not going to change too much in terms of sales. But that doesn't change the fact that most publishers are ignoring the potential of alternate markets like female gamers. And by that I don't at all mean that they should develop more games like Just Dance or Angry Birds. I think there's lots of potential in the interactive drama genre which Quantic Dream has introduced to attract those audiences to the more serious side of gaming.
Shadoken
Member
If you are genuinely interested in the game the race of the character shouldn't really stop you from enjoying the game.
There are tons of non white gamers who enjoy games without their race being playable. Heck even in Korea, China the most popular games are by blizzard (star craft, war craft where the humans are only represented as white peopl)
Also AAA gaming trends just tries to follow whatever Hollywood trends do. So the change needs to start there.
There are tons of non white gamers who enjoy games without their race being playable. Heck even in Korea, China the most popular games are by blizzard (star craft, war craft where the humans are only represented as white peopl)
Also AAA gaming trends just tries to follow whatever Hollywood trends do. So the change needs to start there.
that's not really a point anyone is arguing, though
Chû Totoro
Member
I already said that and I'll post again even if I know it won't change anything : video games are one example in many that illustrates global discriminations.
Everywhere... just everywhere you could see what are the discriminations. Sad thing is that even if they have different levels, they are just the same all over the world.
Gender
Sexuality
Color of the skin
Religion
I don't care that I can play as a black guy if it's still as hard for me to find a job because I'm not white. Yeah in 2014, not being white is still one of the biggest professional difficulty you could encounter.
There are no worst discrimination than another one but skin color discrimination is something that some people are doing on purpose and some are doing having unconscious bias so it's even harder to change how people are acting.
So yeah, still a good question.. but the answer is not in the gaming industry, it's in politics. Change the politics, change the world.
Why are there still so many black men is music => because some f*cking white people can live seeing us as entertainers but seeing us as their leader is way more difficult for them (despite the Obama "change" not a lot of things changed and a big part of the US even hate him *sic*).
If you're white, change your CV with a black sounding name or even better, put a picture of a black person. Do the same with white name and white picture : yeah now you see it.
That's why you can't address color of the skin discrimination like you're addressing sexism or homophobia (unless you start with spreading the good message at school. People are made by the choices they make : that's it. Black asshole or white asshole, still an asshole. Same thing for nice person...).
Now back into a gaming forum for me. Don't want to "derail" anything but imo more black people (or more women...) having a decent house, a decent education (accessing to best schools), a good job etc. and we'll see more black in a lot of industries and medias.
That's why you can't answer a society question only with gaming solutions. And no it won't be something that could start a mouvement. But you're cute
PS : already said it but I'm half black so I suffer from discrimination but I don't really like the I'm proud to be black (more importantly when I'm not totally) so I just post "as a black" so it can be easier to explain. And sorry again if some phrases sound strange (english is not my native language).
Everywhere... just everywhere you could see what are the discriminations. Sad thing is that even if they have different levels, they are just the same all over the world.
Gender
Sexuality
Color of the skin
Religion
I don't care that I can play as a black guy if it's still as hard for me to find a job because I'm not white. Yeah in 2014, not being white is still one of the biggest professional difficulty you could encounter.
There are no worst discrimination than another one but skin color discrimination is something that some people are doing on purpose and some are doing having unconscious bias so it's even harder to change how people are acting.
So yeah, still a good question.. but the answer is not in the gaming industry, it's in politics. Change the politics, change the world.
Why are there still so many black men is music => because some f*cking white people can live seeing us as entertainers but seeing us as their leader is way more difficult for them (despite the Obama "change" not a lot of things changed and a big part of the US even hate him *sic*).
If you're white, change your CV with a black sounding name or even better, put a picture of a black person. Do the same with white name and white picture : yeah now you see it.
That's why you can't address color of the skin discrimination like you're addressing sexism or homophobia (unless you start with spreading the good message at school. People are made by the choices they make : that's it. Black asshole or white asshole, still an asshole. Same thing for nice person...).
Now back into a gaming forum for me. Don't want to "derail" anything but imo more black people (or more women...) having a decent house, a decent education (accessing to best schools), a good job etc. and we'll see more black in a lot of industries and medias.
That's why you can't answer a society question only with gaming solutions. And no it won't be something that could start a mouvement. But you're cute
PS : already said it but I'm half black so I suffer from discrimination but I don't really like the I'm proud to be black (more importantly when I'm not totally) so I just post "as a black" so it can be easier to explain. And sorry again if some phrases sound strange (english is not my native language).
Yes...it most certainly does.
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
I don't think it's the fact that you plays as a male that makes GTA less appealing to women.
Yeah, that's kinda what I think. Yet some people were mad at Dan Houser for not including a female character and for saying: "The concept of being masculine was key to this story" (the quote even appears in the video from the OP)
A lot of the rest of the world does buy video games, just not legally.
In some countries people can either buy games legit for far more than Americans pay, or buy pirate copies for far less. There are a lot of economic issues going on in there, but the market does exist if it's catered to. People thought Valve was crazy for opening up Steam in Russia. Now Russia is one of Steam's biggest regions.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
This might sound cruel but, that is just business is all about, right? Catering to the consumers with most "financial significance." In every kind of business that is always be this mantra, and there's always a chance that there are groups that beyond the most catered to will be sidelined in the process. It's anywhere, it's just business practice. I am not saying it's the morally right thing to do, or it is "correct", but it's just the reality of things.
Although I must say, is the notion that white and male as the group with most significance in the video game market is true? Hmmm.
Arkam
Member
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