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[01011001]

The last time I really looked forward to games like this was PS2 era with Shadow of the Colossus and Prince of Persia Sands of Time. The genre got really old and boring for me. Things like characters never shutting up, forced crafting/skill trees/etc and boring level design really sap my interest.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Seriously, I thought we've been through this, but it's getting worse.

It started with Uncharted. After a bit of time, if you haven't solved a puzzle, the game prompted you to press a button and Drake or someone would say something to give you a hint on how to proceed. It was actually brilliant and kept the flow of the game going, while still giving you the choice to keep attempting the puzzle yourself.

Then, games like Horizon started doing similar things, only they didn't give you the option to NOT hear the hints. If the game deemed you are taking too long, Alloy, etc would make comment hinting at what to do.

Forbidden West took this to a ridiculous level, basically giving you almost no time to figure out the puzzles yourself. And often when you WERE quick enough, she'd still insult you by telling you the answer while you were already in the process of doing that exact thing.

Now, I'm playing God of War Ragnarok. While, I'm pretty early on, this already looks like the worst offender yet. I'll fight a room of mobs and while I'm still picking up loot the other NPCs are giving me not so subtle "hints" at solving a puzzle I haven't even had s chance to see yet. And then, ten seconds later, even more specific hints to basically where they're calling me a dumbass and telling me exactly what to do.

"Hmmm, we need to get across that water. I wish we could freeze it."

"Oh, your Axe freezes stuff doesn't it?"

"Hey, what if you throw your axe at the water?"

Sigh... ok, I jump across and immediately

"Hmmm, I wonder if we could knock that block down?"

"Maybe you could throw your axe at the chain holding that block?"

Sigh... I do that. As soon as the block lands.

"I wonder what you'd see if you climbed on top of that box?"

As soon as you climb up

"Oh, a pool of water. I wish we could freeze it somehow..."

SHUT THE HELL UP. Or do you just want to take the controller from me and do it yourself?

Surely, I'm not the only one experiencing this, right?

This clearly sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed, this is a gigantic work from the devs and of course it's going to have flaws. Hints are for when you are stuck in a place for some time, those npc throwing them at you almost instantly are obviously bugged and need to be reported, like is normal... If you and the rage crowd in the thread really can't see this, then you need instant hints on...
But this was nice fluid for the anti GoW/anti Sony exclusives torches.

... AAnd GoW is a fucking action hack'n slash game, it doesn't need Uncharted/resident evil level puzzles, it needs action and slashing.

 

[Neff]

Man, it's not even just puzzles. Atreus takes Sony's crusade for accessibility to the next level by narrating the entire game for the blind.

 

[EddieVanHelgen]

Yeah their games pretty much play themselves these days. Plague tale Requiem gave me the pip as well, I wish she would just shut up for 5 seconds.

 

[FingerBang]

I've been thinking about it and from a certain point of view it's "realistic" that in a similar situation people would try to help you solve puzzles together. I think it'd be awkward if your companions were just standing there, with a blank stare on their face.

That said, I think for sake of gameplay it should be possible to deactivate all those hints. The same way I can choose hard mode for combat, I should be able to choose it for puzzle.

It's not really a big issue though, loving the game regardless and most secrets you have to still solve yourself.

 

[TonyK]

This clearly sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed, this is a gigantic work from the devs and of course it's going to have flaws. Hints are for when you are stuck in a place for some time, those npc throwing them at you almost instantly are obviously bugged and need to be reported, like is normal... If you and the rage crowd in the thread really can't see this, then you need instant hints on...
But this was nice fluid for the anti GoW/anti Sony exclusives torches.

... AAnd GoW is a fucking action hack'n slash game, it doesn't need Uncharted/resident evil level puzzles, it needs action and slashing.

Are you playing the game? Because it doesn't feel like a bug, characters are talking all the time and giving hints instantly after seeing a "puzzle". Not you, when they see the puzzle. I mean, how dialogs work it doesn't seem a bug but a design choice.

Also, about being an action game, the game is full of environmental "puzzles". I mean, a ton.

 

[Captain Toad]

Man, it's not even just puzzles. Atreus takes Sony's crusade for accessibility to the next level by narrating the entire game for the blind.

You probably already know this, but you're on fire.

 

[consoul]

There needs to be an in-game option for this the first time it happens.

When your sidekick says "Maybe you should stack the boxes on top of one another", the player should have the option to slap the sidekick and say. "Shut the fuck up. If I need your input, I'll ask."

 

[Lunarorbit]

Tell you what though, that auto-pickup on crafting resources is amazing. Imagine how many unnecessary button presses you're saving throughout a 60 hour game.

The first horizon is what broke me on item pick up. It was so annoying especially if you were mounted. I definitely turned the auto pick up on in this game!

Plus extended plus puzzle time helped. I was having the same issues as op and it reduced the annoyance level significantly

 

[Fess]

This clearly sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed, this is a gigantic work from the devs and of course it's going to have flaws. Hints are for when you are stuck in a place for some time, those npc throwing them at you almost instantly are obviously bugged and need to be reported, like is normal... If you and the rage crowd in the thread really can't see this, then you need instant hints on...
But this was nice fluid for the anti GoW/anti Sony exclusives torches.

... AAnd GoW is a fucking action hack'n slash game, it doesn't need Uncharted/resident evil level puzzles, it needs action and slashing.

Drop the defense for a second and help bring attention to the bug then, so it get patched. I’ve reported it, assuming you have too.

And GOW is an action adventure and exploring the map and solving puzzles is as important as the action and slashing. Like the predecessor it’s structured like a metroidvania in 3D with gear-based traversal puzzles, without any challenge there they could just drop you in an arena and have enemy waves thrown at you.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Prepare to be bashed OP. It is what it is. Sony games are very successful and have amazing production values but player agency goes down the drain in those AAA games.

I wish they could change their approach but these games sell a lot so why would them?

I don't see modern Sony designing an ICO or Collosus.

I was about to mention The Last Guardian, but the remembered people didn't enjoy not being able to figure out the puzzles and getting Trico to respond. I am horrible at most games and got stuck in some places, but I really loved figuring it all out since it felt rewarding, and Trico responded to me well. I hear often that constant handholding is annoying, but I also saw a lot of frustration with games with very little or with unconventional gameplay.

 

[KXVXII9X]

I am puzzled since GoW Ragnarok had a whole segment on accessibility. In games like in TLOU Part 2, they had many options, but you could adjust them to however you like with various difficulty modes. You were able to adjust scarcity of items or turn on/off auto aim and such. I'm surprised they didn't have an option to turn off all hints or adjust the frequency of them. I haven't played the game though, so I'm just going by OP's word and what I heard from others.

 

[Outlier]

Because the more "inclusive" the industry becomes, the more hands will need to be held, along the journey.

The real problem is when the devs insist on you having NO CHOICE, but to listen.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Are you playing the game? Because it doesn't feel like a bug, characters are talking all the time and giving hints instantly after seeing a "puzzle". Not you, when they see the puzzle. I mean, how dialogs work it doesn't seem a bug but a design choice.

But that's not normal, it's because they instantly give the hint that only can be an IA bug _ if something is meant to be a environmental puzzle to the player you give the player time to solve it, otherwise it is not meant to be a puzzle.

Drop the defense for a second and help bring attention to the bug then, so it get patched. I’ve reported it, assuming you have too.

That's what i am doing lol _ everyone is crying and shouting 'poor design choice!' and im the one pointing out the fact that it's more than probably an IA bug _ how is that being defensive? You just proved my point, if it wasn't a Sony franchise you wouldn't be jumping the gun with the 'defense force' shtick at someone sharing a different view of the op.

And GOW is an action adventure and exploring the map and solving puzzles is as important as the action and slashing. Like the predecessor it’s structured like a metroidvania in 3D with gear-based traversal puzzles, without any challenge there they could just drop you in an arena and have enemy waves thrown at you.

I'm not saying otherwise maybe i was misunderstood in that regard, my English is not the best _ I'm not a fan of the path the series took, im an old school GoW fan, but the games mechanics you described also apply to the old games, just with more action, different camera, and less boring cinematic pause. What i meant (and i was replying to that user that said that prefer to Google the solution than being given to him like this) is that the game is not a puzzle solving based game... that you have to Google shit up lol.

 

[Elitro]

100% Agreed. I noticed this on the 2018 GoW and it also bothered me. Just have it as a button prompt, choice is almost always the better option.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Yeah...playing GOW:R last night and fucking Atraeus would not shut the fuck up about what I needed to do. 'We need this', 'We can't do that' 'I think we should....' It is unbearable.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Definitely needs to be a setting for this stuff.

There are literally 100 accessibility options but cannot turn off baby hand-hold mode.

 

[Banjo64]

It’s funny how I didn’t see one reviewer highlight this. It’s almost as if it’s targeted at those idiots.

 

[Fess]

That's what i am doing lol _ everyone is crying and shouting 'poor design choice!' and im the one pointing out the fact that it's more than probably an IA bug _ how is that being defensive? You just proved my point, if it wasn't a Sony franchise you wouldn't be jumping the gun with the 'defense force' shtick at someone sharing a different view of the op.

You’re mistaking me for someone else, I’m always negative when I think it’s needed, simply because I want issues to be fixed, preferrably before I’ve already finished a game.
And I was criticizing my GOTY last year Metroid Dread for similar things, hand-holding, it’s not as bad as here but coming from Super Metroid it’s extremely easy to 100% when a radar can check whole rooms and things are marked up clearly on a map. I just don’t like when it’s too easy, feels like I’m playing a game for kids. Devs need to learn that some actually prefer to figure stuff out by themselves even if it take some time.

 

[Vick]

It’s funny how I didn’t see one reviewer highlight this. It’s almost as if it’s targeted at those idiots.

Because it's mostly bullshit. They never tell you what to do during real puzzles, like the ones I just did in the mines. They make you understand the rules of puzzles, mostly early on this fucking immense and always changing game, and then leave you to it.
But Atreus talks alot so far, that is true. Even though he's a surprisingly likeable character in this so it's not the end of the world.

People should play the games they talk about, Forum would be a thousand times better place.
Because the idea of non-masochists, genuine lovers of videogames complaining about the piece of work I'm playing is simply disconcerting.

Edit:

I stand corrected, happened right now as well. Not sure what's the trigger for these clues as at times they're dead silent.

 

[CartesianMan]

This game have a lot issues with the visual language what is interactable and what is not. I think because of that (and the playtests) they implement the Arteus hints late in the game, to make the the thing more clear.
So in top of the narrative you have, a gameplay hints. I appreciate the push of the developers to make the gameplay hints less intrusive, but this time this doesn't work well. I prefer the Zelda type hints where it's up to player to ask for help.

 

[Elder Legend]

Because 90% of the gamer population is lazy, stupid as fuck and need their hands held. That's why.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

That's the one issue I have with Forbidden West: Aloy constantly narrates to me every move she makes and says stupid shit like "I need to climb that tower and hit that button." or "I need to hide in that grass" or "I need to go up that hill" or "I need to put x or y with my bow" etc. and I'm like "thank you Sony for helping me with the basics".

 

[Fess]

Because it's mostly bullshit. They never tell you what to do during real puzzles, like the ones I just did in the mines. They make you understand the rules of puzzles, mostly early on this fucking immense and always changing game, and then leave you to it.
But Atreus talks alot so far, that is true. Even though he's a surprisingly likeable character in this so it's not the end of the world.

People should play the games they talk about, Forum would be a thousand times better place.
Because the idea of non-masochists, genuine lovers of videogames complaining about the piece of work I'm playing is simply disconcerting.

So it’s a long tutorial? I don’t know how long I’ve played, less than 10 hours, and they still tell me what I should do ”Maybe you should…” ”Have you tried…” ”How about…” ”I think we should…” etc. Been gaming for 40 years and it’s not ground-breaking puzzles so imo they tell me exactly what I should do when then ask me those leading questions. There was one ice puzzle where I had to experiment to get hidden loot though, wasn’t told how to do that. I wish it was always like that. Just let me experiment.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

You’re mistaking me for someone else, I’m always negative when I think it’s needed, simply because I want issues to be fixed, preferrably before I’ve already finished a game.
And I was criticizing my GOTY last year Metroid Dread for similar things, hand-holding, it’s not as bad as here but coming from Super Metroid it’s extremely easy to 100% when a radar can check whole rooms and things are marked up clearly on a map. I just don’t like when it’s too easy, feels like I’m playing a game for kids. Devs need to learn that some actually prefer to figure stuff out by themselves even if it take some time.

Fair enough, and i second you _ if the thing is in fact a design choice i will criticize it, like I've had criticized before (and still do) the fact that they went to much with the action adventure formula of the ND games, and left the old roots.

 

[sachos]

Example during Puzzles



And even during bosses, so distracting lol

 

[Mozzarella]

Well said, it seems the developers dont trust gamers and their fans to solve them on their own, they have to handhold them all the time.

I dont like the backseating from the likes of Aloy all the time, its annoying and takes the joy of the gameplay.

One of the things i respect about Breath of the Wild is that while its super popular it also doesnt spill out all puzzle solution for the player, and despite all that its super popular, so i really dont get what they hell these devs are smoking.

 

[semiconscious]

And even during bosses, so distracting lol

this used to be referred to as 'back seat driving'...

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

They want to sell as many copies as possible and in order to do that they have to make the games very approachable for causal players and one of the most frustrating things about playing video games is not knowing what to do or where to go.

But they just need to add an option to turn off the puzzle spoilers but maybe that is more complicated to do then it seems… who knows

 

[jm89]

Smh I am in a race against time before atreus or mimir ruin the puzzle. That is the real challenge of the puzzles.

 

[Neff]

You probably already know this, but you're on fire.

My favourite part is when, after telling me how to solve a puzzle, he tells me that the puzzle is solved.

 

[Ronin_7]

Games should come with new option 'Journalist mode'.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Because they are aiming to please the lowest denominator of gamers, meaning entitled gamers who don't want any challenges or use their brains.

My ongoing theory of game design can explain this.

How a game makes money, changes how the game is designed.

Older gamers remember the Arcades, where the game makes money by literally being as difficult as possible. The more game overs the better. Thus games were hard. Not to please gamers who want hard games, but because easy games don't earn money.

Now with modern games that don't have real money shop, they depend on the player paying full price up front. And that lead to the need to have as many people buying a copy as possible.

Games had been getting easier over time. Gamers who want high difficulty is a smaller niche.

 

[Ozzie666]

Remember when you needed a guide to solve puzzles, complete games and find all the special secrets? Final Fantasy and a lot of JPRG's were the poster child for those experiences. Anyone who played EVERQUEST or early Ultima's would remember the lack of hand holding and complexity of quests. Then we got Warcraft and its hand holding, arrows, quest markers and other mechanics to really dumb down the experience. Seems we've reached the other side now and the opposite direction. People seem easily frustrated these days and want to consume experiences at a blindingly fast rate, at least casually. Older gamers want it easier due to busy lives and this young generation doesn't know anything better. I like how Uncharted found a middle ground, where if you struggled it would offer a hint.

 

[Sleepwalker]

You'll solve nothing and be happy

 

[Thief1987]

Remember when you needed a guide to solve puzzles, complete games and find all the special secrets? Final Fantasy and a lot of JPRG's were the poster child for those experiences. Anyone who played EVERQUEST or early Ultima's would remember the lack of hand holding and complexity of quests. Then we got Warcraft and its hand holding, arrows, quest markers and other mechanics to really dumb down the experience. Seems we've reached the other side now and the opposite direction. People seem easily frustrated these days and want to consume experiences at a blindingly fast rate, at least casually. Older gamers want it easier due to busy lives and this young generation doesn't know anything better. I like how Uncharted found a middle ground, where if you struggled it would offer a hint.

Yeah, more games should use Uncharted's solution. You can ask for a hint, but if you are stubborn enough, you can have as much time as you want.

 

[93xfan]

they’re just excited to move you on to the next cool cutscene bro.

 

[R6Rider]

I think it's fine how it is, but an option would be nice.

Really minor though.

 

[Togh]

It seems this video has never been so true than it is in current times:



I guess the media is so confident that people are too dumb to make their own decisions, that they can drive our opinions as they want, that they don't think people these days are capable to solve any puzzle in the game. Also, they wanna make it safe for everyone, from the babies to the elders, anyone can sit, play and feel good by wining and finishing the game

 

[TheDuskwalker]

So it’s a long tutorial? I don’t know how long I’ve played, less than 10 hours, and they still tell me what I should do ”Maybe you should…” ”Have you tried…” ”How about…” ”I think we should…” etc. Been gaming for 40 years and it’s not ground-breaking puzzles so imo they tell me exactly what I should do when then ask me those leading questions. There was one ice puzzle where I had to experiment to get hidden loot though, wasn’t told how to do that. I wish it was always like that. Just let me experiment.

I'm around 15 hours in the game and the game is now backseating me harder than ever. Putting in spoiler tag to be safe.

Spoiler

Freya's backseating is insane. She'll backseat simple puzzles, she'll backseat combat, she'll backseat bosses. I don't remember Atreus ever telling me to do a shield strike...that bitch did! I understand Baldur's pain now.

BaldurDidNothinWrong

Edit: Seriously her in the Nidhogg boss fight, fucking hell man.

Edit: Nevermind, Mimir yelled at me to do a shield strike too. She's calmed down a bit during side content, Mimir still going though.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Most people hit up Google if they get stuck for more than 5 minutes anyway. And I'm one of those people, unless it's the point of the game (like Zelda or Metroid).

Sony puzzles are not good. You mean to tell me the God of War can't jump over a waist high barrier? Get outta here. Kratos doesn't have time for that shit.

"I think we need special equipment for that." Or, we could jump over there. I've seen you do it, man.

 

[Fess]

Sony puzzles are not good. You mean to tell me the God of War can't jump over a waist high barrier? Get outta here. Kratos doesn't have time for that shit.

"I think we need special equipment for that." Or, we could jump over there. I've seen you do it, man.

Yes it’s hilarious but this is industry wide, not just Sony. Is Gears any better? Big hulky men stuck on some rubble. Tomb Raider? World’s best cave explorer needs colored ledges to understand where to climb.
The only dev who truly let us try traversing the map however we want is Nintendo with BOTW. But it looks super janky. I think Assassin’s Creed Odyssey does it best, looks cool and feels free enough.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

Yeah...playing GOW:R last night and fucking Atraeus would not shut the fuck up about what I needed to do. 'We need this', 'We can't do that' 'I think we should....' It is unbearable.

Yeah this is childish game design, embarrassing. For me this thread is testament to why I only play Nintendo and indie games. Never liked puzzles in Zelda either.

 

[Bernardougf]

This trend of protagonists narrating every action, move and puzzle is ending my enjoyment of games, Im playing trough HFW right now and went to the menu to find a option to shut Aloy up and couldn't find it, Its not normal for a human being to narrate every frreaking thing that he does...

 

[tassletine]

Because focus testers complain.

 

[Rykan]

Good. I hope they keep doing it until a mode that skips every puzzle becomes the standard.

Puzzle and Combat/Action is the worst possible combination of genres and it's baffling how it became the standard.

 

[dDoc]

Loving it but if I had to field one complaint about the game is that there's too many cut scenes. Combat is so good I want to fight all the time

 

[01011001]

This trend of protagonists narrating every action, move and puzzle is ending my enjoyment of games, Im playing trough HFW right now and went to the menu to find a option to shut Aloy up and couldn't find it, Its not normal for a human being to narrate every frreaking thing that he does...

yeah I literally turned voice audio to 0 after a while. the game was basically ruined by Aloy and the NPC idiots around you.

and did you know that you are currently playing the patched version where they toned down the amount that bitch talks? yeah! unpatched she was even more annoying

 

[Dynasty8]

Example during Puzzles



And even during bosses, so distracting lol

This is seriously fucking ridiculous. And it's like 10-20 hours into the game and they're still treating you like an idiot.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This trend of protagonists narrating every action, move and puzzle is ending my enjoyment of games, Im playing trough HFW right now and went to the menu to find a option to shut Aloy up and couldn't find it, Its not normal for a human being to narrate every frreaking thing that he does...

Have you ever played Hellblade?

If you havent, do not play this game.

But if you have an itching to be bombarded with a bipolar nitwit talking to herself for probably 45 minutes of the first hour, play the game. I tried it on Game Pass and deleted fast. In the first hour you roam around a bit opening doors with a red symbol and get into 1 or 2 sword fights. The rest is unskippable cutscenes with the main character who seems to be on quaaludes.