Support NeoGAF

[FBeeEye]

Anything targeted for the mass market has to be dumbed down. It's not about intelligence. People are lazy and impatient. When the monkey presses the button, he expects a treat to come out. They likely did this because this is the feedback they got from the retards in the focus group Sony sent the game to.

Watch a kid play Fortnite and see how long you can last without wanting to blow your brains out. It's like watching a chimp with ADHD. Unfortunately, games are expensive to make and Sony can't risk people not liking the game because its "too hard."

 

[FBeeEye]

This shouldn't be a toggle in the menu. This needs to just not exist above the "Story" difficulty. I disagree that options like these are telemetry-driven. It's all done to placate game reviewers which will net high scores and critical acclaim which Sony hopes will drive sales.

 

[Captain Toad]

With so much hand holding, I may pass on it. How can that be GOTY material?

Because it's awesome?

The game isn't a puzzle game. NPCs telling you how to do puzzles that were never meant to be very difficult or the focus of the game, is annoying, but it doesn't ruin the game.

The NPCs aren't winning fights for you, which is the main focus of the game. The actual gameplay and combat is top tier.

 

[abstract alien]

 

[cireza]

The game isn't a puzzle game.

So why do they put puzzles in it ? When I buy an action-game, I want action. If I want puzzles, I will play Talos Principle or Catherine. Whatever game is actually competent at providing puzzles and where it is the core of the gameplay.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So why do they put puzzles in it ? When I buy an action-game, I want action. If I want puzzles, I will play Talos Principle or Catherine. Whatever game is actually competent at providing puzzles and where it is the core of the gameplay.

1. It fills the time

2. If you include puzzles, it makes the game more cerebral/sophisticated. If it's like the old GoW games, the game will be considered archaic twitchy dude bro action games.

 

[The Stig]

I'm a few hours into the game and OP is absolutely right. It would be great if you could turn these "hints" off

 

[samoilaaa]

Because it's awesome?

The game isn't a puzzle game. NPCs telling you how to do puzzles that were never meant to be very difficult or the focus of the game, is annoying, but it doesn't ruin the game.

The NPCs aren't winning fights for you, which is the main focus of the game. The actual gameplay and combat is top tier.

its not awsome , its insulting for anyone that has a brain , if people dont want puzzles then dont put puzzles in a story driven game made for people that cant put 2 and 2 together , i understand some people just want to come home and chill after a long hard day at work , just kill some monsters and watch some pretty cutscenes , but at least dont add challenges that make me feel like a braindead zombie

and this isnt just in sony games , its in most 3rd person cinematic action adventure games that came out in recent years , a plague tale , gears , like i said in a previous post in the most recent game that i played ( a plague tale requiem ) i entered a church with a puzzle and the kid that was with me gave clear indications of what to do ? seriously ? you couldnt have just made me go open another fucking door ? instead ur forcing me to twist 3 handles at the indications of an npc

 

[Shh]

So why do they put puzzles in it ? When I buy an action-game, I want action. If I want puzzles, I will play Talos Principle or Catherine. Whatever game is actually competent at providing puzzles and where it is the core of the gameplay.

I actually really enjoyed the puzzles of the first game. I'll have to mute my headset during puzzles in the new one, though.

 

[Captain Toad]

its not awsome , its insulting for anyone that has a brain , if people dont want puzzles then dont put puzzles in a story driven game made for people that cant put 2 and 2 together , i understand some people just want to come home and chill after a long hard day at work , just kill some monsters and watch some pretty cutscenes , but at least dont add challenges that make me feel like a braindead zombie

and this isnt just in sony games , its in most 3rd person cinematic action adventure games that came out in recent years , a plague tale , gears , like i said in a previous post in the most recent game that i played ( a plague tale requiem ) i entered a church with a puzzle and the kid that was with me gave clear indications of what to do ? seriously ? you couldnt have just made me go open another fucking door ? instead ur forcing me to twist 3 handles at the indications of an npc

I meant the GAME is awesome, despite this flaw.

 

[Boss Man]

Demon's Souls built an entire genre off of renouncing this way back in 2009. Too bad there's not more of that kind of innovation going on, but I guess the trend continues. It's probably just too expensive to make AAA video games.

As a player, there's nothing more magical than stumbling into some lovingly crafted corner of a video game that you know existed there whether you found it or not - this makes the entire game feel alive. As a creator (or publisher?), spending time lovingly crafting something that people might not see is a waste of time and resources. This means all AAA games would really like to be on rails if they could, and how much they open up depends on a combination of tech/tricks to reduce cost and how much players demand it.

Maybe AI + advanced procedural generation will take us to a better place.

 

[semiconscious]

1. It fills the time

2. If you include puzzles, it makes the game more cerebral/sophisticated. If it's like the old GoW games, the game will be considered archaic twitchy dude bro action games.

i agree. the puzzles are included to simply extend game length, & to give the appearance that there's something going on that actually isn't...

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Demon's Souls built an entire genre off of renouncing this way back in 2009. Too bad there's not more of that kind of innovation going on, but I guess the trend continues. It's probably just too expensive to make AAA video games.

As a player, there's nothing more magical than stumbling into some lovingly crafted corner of a video game that you know existed there whether you found it or not - this makes the entire game feel alive. As a creator (or publisher?), spending time lovingly crafting something that people might not see is a waste of time and resources. This means all AAA games would really like to be on rails if they could, and how much they open up depends on a combination of tech/tricks to reduce cost and how much players demand it.

Maybe AI + advanced procedural generation will take us to a better place.

I get what you're saying.

BUt it probably just comes down to expectations on the game and franchise. DS/ER kinds of games arent expected to be handholding games with easy bosses.

If GoW gamers are complaining it means it's not an expectation in this franchise. If nobody complained, then gamers tolerate it. If a Dark Souls game had tons of tutorials and hints it would be really weird.

If GoW is a game that is supposed to ensure every gamer sees and solves everything then so be it. Its up to Sony whether to do it and if gamers accept it. Not every game is meant that way. Only the most hardcore Super Mario gamer is going to know every secret. I bet most gamers barely find the hidden stuff. But they still enjoy it and dont need to see every secret room or find every gold star.

 

[01011001]

they are like Marvel movies, I couldn't say it better. which is also why I find it hilarious and sad that these types of games regularly get nominated for GOTY awards and are getting such praise from reviewers.

imagine if Avengers Infinity War was a best picture winner at the Oscars... that's what it's like to think GoW is the best game of the year imo

 

[skit_data]

Never bothered me once in Ragnarök. Idk if I just solved the puzzles quickly or simply don't listen to NPCs during puzzle segments but I really don't get all the whole handholding-narrative.

 

[Boss Man]

they are like Marvel movies, I couldn't say it better. which is also why I find it hilarious and sad that these types of games regularly get nominated for GOTY awards and are getting such praise from reviewers.

imagine if Avengers Infinity War was a best picture winner at the Oscars... that's what it's like to think GoW is the best game of the year imo

To be fair, I think God of War (2018 + Ragnarok) are really on their own level in terms of storytelling and cinematic experiences in video games. I do think there's room for experiences like this as well as ones that give the player more freedom. GOW is on the extreme end, but it's also extremely good at what it does…so fair enough IMO.

Personally I much prefer video games as a sandbox, but I can still appreciate that God of War is compelling entertainment. I could probably find time to play 2-3 "experiences" like that a year depending on length. Plus the combat in GOW is fun, they really nailed that axe.

I strongly prefer games that are more open ended, but God of War is still the second best game I've played all year despite that. I welcome a world where we can get games like BoTW and God of War at the same time. It's almost hard to even consider them as being the same thing for purposes of ranking or anything like that, they are very different experiences but both are valid IMO.

 

[01011001]

To be fair, I think God of War (2018 + Ragnarok) are really on their own level in terms of storytelling and cinematic experiences in video games. I do think there's room for experiences like this as well as ones that give the player more freedom. GOW is on the extreme end, but it's also extremely good at what it does…so fair enough IMO.

Personally I much prefer video games as a sandbox, but I can still appreciate that God of War is compelling entertainment. I could probably find time to play 2-3 "experiences" like that a year. Plus the combat in GOW is fun, they really nailed that axe.

the Mavel movies are also really damn good at what they are doing yet noone in their right mind would tell you they are on the level to warrant this amount of praise.

even people who love them...

I think the discourse around games is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to this. noone seems to be able to separate "I really love this" from "this is award worthy".
in almost all other forms of media this is different it seems. you constantly hear people say how much they love a certain movie but at the same time don't also say that it's genuinely a genius example of its specific medium.

it feels like in gaming as soon as people love a game they are also at the same time convinced that it's among the best in the medium.


I loved Thor Love and Thunder, but you would never hear me trying to argue with you or anyone else that it is a genius movie, because it isn't... it's popcorn cinema that is entertaining and has a high production value... not dissimilar to Ragnarök.

also I feel like the cinematic aspects of these games is often overrated. not only because I think that "cinematic" isn't something any game should strive for, but also because even in that regard these games aren't that good. animation, writing, acting... almost all of these elements are so far below good movies that you can't even really compare that either.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I loved Thor Love and Thunder, but you would never hear me trying to argue with you or anyone else that it is a genius movie, because it isn't... it's popcorn cinema that is entertaining and has a high production value... not dissimilar to Ragnarök.

As crazy as it sounds, I think Total Recall (Arnie) is one of the best movies ever. I give it a 10/10. I can watch that movie every night if I had to. But in no way is it worthy for any awards, its got chopsocky Arnie one liners, endless killing with the fakest blood packets and terrible editing. Even the special effects were cheap looking and plasticky. It was pure action scenes with goofy one liners.

 

[Boss Man]

the Mavel movies are also really damn good at what they are doing yet noone in their right mind would tell you they are on the level to warrant this amount of praise.

even people who love them...

I think the discourse around games is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to this. noone seems to be able to separate "I really love this" from "this is award worthy".
in almost all other forms of media this is different it seems. you constantly hear people say how much they love a certain movie but at the same time don't also say that it's genuinely a genius example of its specific medium.

it feels like in gaming as soon as people love a game they are also at the same time convinced that it's among the best in the medium.


I loved Thor Love and Thunder, but you would never hear me trying to argue with you or anyone else that it is a genius movie, because it isn't... it's popcorn cinema that is entertaining and has a high production value... not dissimilar to Ragnarök.

also I feel like the cinematic aspects of these games is often overrated. not only because I think that "cinematic" isn't something any game should strive for, but also because even in that regard these games aren't that good. animation, writing, acting... almost all of these elements are so far below good movies that you can't even really compare that either.

I would agree with you for Ragnarok, since it is essentially just (a lot) more (great!) content for the same game. But I think God of War (2018) pushed the industry forward a bit, even it it was only in this one narrow way.

To agree with you a bit more, I would call God of War (2018) an incredible and influential game but I would call The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild a masterpiece.

 

[Danjin44]

But I think God of War (2018) pushed the industry forward a bit

I enjoyed the game and I'm enjoying GOWR but this sound very hyperbolic to me, it moved industry what way exactly?

 

[marjo]

Valve games are the gold standard in nudging players without outright giving them the solution. If you listen to their developer commentaries, you see how much effort they spend to ensure that things like subtle visual cues, prior 'training', sound effects, etc. help the players, sometimes subconsciously.

The end result is that players still maintain the sense of satisfaction of solving the puzzles and yet still don't get frustrated very often. It makes what games like GoWR do seem like cheap band-aids by comparson.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

This is really ruining the game for me. All i can think about while moving through the environments is when will one of my companions tell me where to go or how to solve EVERY puzzle. This is a major issue with the game!

 

[Boss Man]

I enjoyed the game and I'm enjoying GOWR but this sound very hyperbolic to me, it moved industry what way exactly?

Maybe, I did say "a bit" on purpose. I was just thinking in terms of character development and story telling. Raise the bar might have been more accurate to say.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

and this isnt just in sony games , its in most 3rd person cinematic action adventure games that came out in recent years , a plague tale , gears , like i said in a previous post in the most recent game that i played ( a plague tale requiem ) i entered a church with a puzzle and the kid that was with me gave clear indications of what to do ? seriously ? you couldnt have just made me go open another fucking door ? instead ur forcing me to twist 3 handles at the indications of an npc

No, you are the NPC now! You do as you are told!

 

[Filben]

Demon's Souls built an entire genre off of renouncing this way back in 2009. Too bad there's not more of that kind of innovation going on, but I guess the trend continues. It's probably just too expensive to make AAA video games.

Yeah. There are so many indie games left and right without the handholding. It's just that ever increasing self-evoked costs of the AAA industry which wants ever increasing returns of investment and taking increasingly risks due to this that they have to practically make a game for literally everyone. Things being added for the more hardcore audience is typically something you can easily change like adding to the enemy's HP pool or increase their damage numbers. But different puzzles, different mechanics altogether ? This shit is rare.

And if 80% of your audience isn't going to look into the options menu or doesn't see the end content of your game you set bars and standardys pretty low.

Of course you need accessibility features, however, before the Twitter mob tears you apart.

 

[diffusionx]

Because level of difficulty, tips and tutorials are never part of GOTY evaluation. Nor does it ever seem part of any game site reviewer's criteria in any game.

The hint system is for the game site reviewers

 

[diffusionx]

Because it's awesome?

The game isn't a puzzle game. NPCs telling you how to do puzzles that were never meant to be very difficult or the focus of the game, is annoying, but it doesn't ruin the game.

The NPCs aren't winning fights for you, which is the main focus of the game. The actual gameplay and combat is top tier.

I disagree with this. They put in the puzzles for a reason. This game isn't a pure brawler. They are part of the gameplay. They also provide a nice change of pace. Handing me the answers in .0001 seconds and treating me like a moron hurts the puzzles, hurts the pace, takes the person out of the game (obviously, they are complaining about it), and negatively affects the gameplay.

 

[Captain Toad]

I disagree with this. They put in the puzzles for a reason. This game isn't a pure brawler. They are part of the gameplay. They also provide a nice change of pace. Handing me the answers in .0001 seconds and treating me like a moron hurts the puzzles, hurts the pace, takes the person out of the game (obviously, they are complaining about it), and negatively affects the gameplay.

We aren't disagreeing. I mean, that's exactly why I made this thread in the first place.

I'm just saying, despite this annoyance/flaw, it is still a great game. This issue does need to be addressed though.

 

[Whitecrow]

I was hoping this thread was about GoW:R... Yeah, dude, what the fuck are the devs thinking?
I cant stand atreus, I would have broke his mouth very early in the game. Spanish VA is even more irritating.

 

[Diseased Yak]

Move forward, by boat or on foot -> circular area with a few enemies, could be a chest around -> Squeeze through a narrow passage -> Simple puzzle that Atreus or Mimir ruin for you very quickly -> Squeeze through a narrow passage -> circular area with a few enemies....

 

[Captain Toad]

Move forward, by boat or on foot -> circular area with a few enemies, could be a chest around -> Squeeze through a narrow passage -> Simple puzzle that Atreus or Mimir ruin for you very quickly -> Squeeze through a narrow passage -> circular area with a few enemies....

You could make any game sound boring if you're going to do that.

 

[diffusionx]

We aren't disagreeing. I mean, that's exactly why I made this thread in the first place.

I'm just saying, despite this annoyance/flaw, it is still a great game. This issue does need to be addressed though.

I guess we just have a different opinion on the importance of the puzzles. I beat GOW 2018 a few weeks ago and thought the puzzle element was very important to the overall package. Dumbing it down in this way materially hurts the game. Im fine skipping the game if they never patch this honestly.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

With the optional puzzles I haven't had any hints. There are a few that rely on your axe and one of them had me scratching my head for a good few minutes. It's a bit annoying but it isn't putting me off the game.

 

[Kataploom]

I guess we just have a different opinion on the importance of the puzzles. I beat GOW 2018 a few weeks ago and thought the puzzle element was very important to the overall package. Dumbing it down in this way materially hurts the game. Im fine skipping the game if they never patch this honestly.

Haven't played any yet but I think it's not of like you say, of they're there, the expectation for then to be integral part of the experience is there too, if they're there just as a filler, then the perceived quality is going to be harmed... Most people with judge your product based off the sun of it's parts, not just in the best parts... The worst parts will still make it into the equation

 

[CherryFalls]

Something similar, the new dark pictures horror game.

There are times when the bad guy will be in the same space as you, and unless you hide for that sequence, he will find you

Don't worry though, you are told exactly when you need to hide, and there is also an arrow to show you where you need to hide until he leaves, thank god, I might have had to use a few of my brain cells otherwise:

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Ive never seen it as bad as it is in Ragnarok, like wow! Its literally as soon as you enter the puzzle room. They need a slider for this or an option to turn it off altogether!!

 

[daveonezero]

This is why I am more and more convinced I will probably stop playing the latest games at some point.

Like if I can get a handheld or mini pc that can play everything up to Ragnorik at 1080p I'll never need to buy newer games.

There are so many PC and last gen Console games that are with playing.

 

[Nydius]

I'm just saying, despite this annoyance/flaw, it is still a great game. This issue does need to be addressed though.

Yep. Just a simple toggle in the gameplay options: "NPC Hints: All/Limited/None" or simply "On/Off".

They have a billion different accessibility options that they were (rightfully) proud to show off before the game released, I can't fathom it would be terribly difficult to give us an option to toggle off NPC hints.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Anything targeted for the mass market has to be dumbed down. It's not about intelligence. People are lazy and impatient. When the monkey presses the button, he expects a treat to come out. They likely did this because this is the feedback they got from the retards in the focus group Sony sent the game to.

Watch a kid play Fortnite and see how long you can last without wanting to blow your brains out. It's like watching a chimp with ADHD. Unfortunately, games are expensive to make and Sony can't risk people not liking the game because its "too hard."

No doubt.

This is exactly my thinking why Activision made COD an SMG run and gun rat mazy game with double the accuracy vs. the old ass 360 CODs which were more balanced in game playing styles and you couldn't pick off people with an SMG from AR distance (like now).

Those old games could be ultra cruel to gamers playing run and gun unless you knew what you were doing with SMGs and shotguns. It had open laneways and the best recourse to get at good long distance shooters was tossing smoke bombs (which hardly anyone threw) or doing bomb squad/sit rep kinds of perks to avoid their claymores.

Instead, they just dumbed everything down and added SBMM to get games as balanced as possible so noobs could keep gaming without getting plastered.

 

[jigglet]

Did you guys ever play Wii / Wii U era Nintendo games?

I think it started with Twilight Princess, then peaked with Captain Toad. There was literally a hint about how to rotate the camera, which was only activated AFTER you rotated the camera. It wasn't even hand-holding, it was "fuck you dumb shit we think so little of you we're going to assume you already forgot"

 

[Fess]

Did you guys ever play Wii / Wii U era Nintendo games?

I think it started with Twilight Princess, then peaked with Captain Toad. There was literally a hint about how to rotate the camera, which was only activated AFTER you rotated the camera. It wasn't even hand-holding, it was "fuck you dumb shit we think so little of you we're going to assume you already forgot"

ESRB rating for Captain Toad is 3+. I don't think it's the same issue there even though you have a point.

I started playing Sommerville last night, slooow game but I really appreciate how little hints you get, you just kinda have to experiment and learn by yourself.