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[soco]

OT tends to be pretty diverse, and I suspect that as groups become more heterogenous they become more accepting of a broader range of views and ways of approaching things, as well being more critical of things that inhibit such things. I think one of the main draws of OT is that there's a huge diversity of topics and opinions. People come here because they're seeking something out, and once they make it a home, they attract other like-minded individuals.

Age is another issue, but the only major difference I see in most Americans regarding age is about financial issues. Social issues can change with age, especially for people in rural areas that go to school and run into diversity.

 

[zchen]

The right is mostly insane.

 

[speculawyer]

However, the United States is quite liberal in comparison to the entire world outside of Europe and Canada. Same-sex marriage, for example, is only fully legal in a dozen countries, and the very concept of being a homosexual is grounds for arrest, imprisonment, or even execution in slightly left than half the world's countries. Abortion is only fully legal upon a woman's request in twenty-four nations, and the freedoms of religion and speech still are not universal rights.

While the country is quite far to the right of most of Europe, America as a nation is much more progressive than the world as a whole. Personally, I think that judging the politics of every country by the relatively small European standard is unrealistic and a bit small-minded.

However saying that the United States is behind other first-world nations in terms of civil liberties, certain human rights, and regulations isn't unfounded.

LOL.
WE in the usa shouldn't compare ourselves against other first world nations. We should compare our selves to other third world nations. Ok. The sad part is I think he has a point.

 

[FStop7]

Being an independent myself, it seems GAF has always leaned very far into the left.. Why is this?

Does it?


Can't say I agree with you.

 

[gutter_trash]

Social Conservatives hijacked the Republican party and have converted the party in a bad joke, that is almost impossible to defend.

this, anyone who is centrist knows that the Dems are not even that Left wing much

 

[Enosh]

Are you Canadian? Do you live here?

no, I am just comparing their stated political goals with those of the US democratic party

NDP are as far left as you can get. Liberal is center left. and the PC is just coming into power. Now i dont think you can compare our right to the US right. You arent even in the same ballpark.

I never said they weren't left
and I never compared the right

 

[-COOLIO-]

Isn't the education-left connection based more on certain fields of academics than academics in general? I believe I've seen studies showing certain fields of higher education actually lean right.

I've always seen it tied to college education period

 

[maharg]

Being an independent myself, it seems GAF has always leaned very far into the left.. Why is this?

Oh yeah. I wanted to bring this up. The concept of "being independent" is such a weirdly american concept. I don't think anywhere else in the world has people who call themselves this. It doesn't even mean anything except that you weren't willing to register yourself with the government as a member of either of the parties (and registering your party affiliation with the government is also a weirdly American thing).

Also, bipartisan as a kind of pseudo-non-partisan. Don't think that's common even in other countries with largely polar two-party systems either. Non-partisanship is a very very different (and much more magical) thing.

 

[Bornstellar]

I've always seen it tied to college education period

Not so on Wikipedia.

Roughly 19% to 26% of the American public is liberal depending on survey and method.[6] Liberals vote mostly in favor of the Democratic Party, constituting roughly 43% of the Democratic base.[4][8][9][10] Liberalism tends to be most prominent in academia and among those with higher levels of education.[18] In 2004, 72% of full-time faculty members at four-year colleges identified as liberal.[19] In a 2004 survey of 1,000 economists, registered Democrats outnumbered registered Republicans by a 2.5 to 1 ratio. The majority of economists favored "safety regulations, gun control, redistribution, public schooling, and anti-discrimination laws", while opposing "tighter immigration controls, government ownership of enterprise and tariffs."[20] Among sociologists and anthropologists, Democrats outnumber Republicans 20 to 1.[21]

Even in this very article, there is a false equivalency between education and profession. And even if it were tied to educational period, you still have to account for the fact that disproportionate numbers of those who do end up obtaining a masters or doctorate end up in academia. And even so, that's a fickle measure of education. In my experience, I have learned far more working in industry than I have in school.

 

[spekkeh]

As a scientist, and looking at my colleagues, I can tell you that IQ has very little correlation to how rational you are when it comes to politics.

 

[Cubsfan23]

conservatives all have jobs so we can't spend all day arguing on gaf

so obama does create jobs

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Social Conservatives hijacked the Republican party and have converted the party in a bad joke, that is almost impossible to defend.

+++++++++

 

[Bornstellar]

As a scientist, and looking at my colleagues, I can tell you that IQ has very little correlation to how rational you are when it comes to politics.

Rationality != ideology.

 

[FStop7]

As a scientist, and looking at my colleagues, I can tell you that IQ has very little correlation to how rational you are when it comes to politics.

William F. Buckley, Jr. was brilliant and yet he was a conservative.

Conservative politics in the USA were hijacked by the neocons in the 70s and it's remained so ever since.

 

[spekkeh]

Rationality != ideology.

Exactly. Ethics can't be grounded in rationality, Kant failed. 'We' tend to have a skewed perspective anyway, being wholly reliant on the government to survive.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I think gaf might be slightly on the right, relative to the rest of the world. That's how far right American politics is.

 

[dabig2]

What the fuck does "left" even mean in context of America and GAF at large? Virtually all of the Democrats in power today are center-right.

Obama himself is a centrist, corporatist, authoritarian individual whose biggest accomplishment is enacting the Conservative version of "universal healthcare".

No, Gaf isn't left leaning per se. It's just that the line in the center has been drastically shifting more and more to the right for 20+ years now (don't get me started on the "liberal" Bill Clinton...)

So again I ask, what the fuck does left mean?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

What the fuck does "left" even mean in context of America and GAF at large? Virtually all of the Democrats in power today are center-right.

Obama himself is a centrist, corporatist, authoritarian individual whose biggest accomplishment is enacting the Conservative version of "universal healthcare".

No, Gaf isn't left leaning per se. It's just that the line in the center has been drastically shifting more and more to the right for 20+ years now (don't get me started on the "liberal" Bill Clinton...)

So again I ask, what the fuck does left mean?

truth bombs.

 

[Izick]

Educated people often tend to lean left in politics for the obvious reasons (common sense), and most people on gaf are educated.

.

 

[Perspicacity]

Im trying to say we are a liberal country.

Also if you are canadian, you should know that our vote system sucks. votes dont match seats. so while the Conservative won the most seats for a majority, it doesnt actually represent the popular vote. I hope they change this soon.

Realistically we should have an (elected) Senate that uses first past the post and House that's determined by popular vote, give the Gov. General job to the leader of the Senate and the Prime Minister job to the leader of the House. This would never happen of course, but it's nice to want things.

conservatives all have jobs so we can't spend all day arguing on gaf

The unemployment rate is generally higher in conservative/Republican states, so...?

 

[jerry1594]

LOL.
WE in the usa shouldn't compare ourselves against other first world nations. We should compare our selves to other third world nations. Ok. The sad part is I think he has a point.

Seems hyperbolic

 

[maharg]

William F. Buckley, Jr. was brilliant and yet he was a conservative.

Conservative politics in the USA were hijacked by the neocons in the 70s and it's remained so ever since.

Social conservatives and libertarians are in the process of hijacking it from them. The tea party movement isn't neoconservative.

Realistically we should have an (elected) Senate that uses first past the post and House that's determined by popular vote, give the Gov. General job to the leader of the Senate and the Prime Minister job to the leader of the House. This would never happen of course, but it's nice to want things.

Why do people want this? Seriously. Learn a lesson from the US and Australia about having a bicameral system where both houses are elected through completely different electoral systems and how it leads to deadlock.

Also, giving the GG's powers to an elected official free to use them because he's backed by the will of the people, in *addition* to the massive powers already granted to the Prime Minister (more by far than most presidents)? Wow. Let's take the road to dictatorship a little more seriously here, shall we?

 

[DEO3]

Because its on the internet, and on the internet it only takes five seconds to see if someone is full of shit - which about 95% of republican/libertarian talking points tend to be now a days.

 

[The Jason]

What the fuck does "left" even mean in context of America and GAF at large? Virtually all of the Democrats in power today are center-right.

Obama himself is a centrist, corporatist, authoritarian individual whose biggest accomplishment is enacting the Conservative version of "universal healthcare".

No, Gaf isn't left leaning per se. It's just that the line in the center has been drastically shifting more and more to the right for 20+ years now (don't get me started on the "liberal" Bill Clinton...)

So again I ask, what the fuck does left mean?

Exactly. Tell that to a conservative and their head will explode. He IS a communist ya know

 

[Mammoth Jones]

They're under 40. Takes a few decades but people tend to alter their perspectives over time. I mean, I don't think I'll ever change how I feel about:

-A woman's right to choose
-Voter rights
-Freedom
-Capitalism
-Gay rights
-Racial equality

But I have noticed I've shifted slightly on other issues. Time and experience tends to do that.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Because its on the internet, and on the internet it only takes five seconds to see if someone is full of shit - which about 95% of republican/libertarian talking points tend to be now a days.

But democratic talking points are more valid?

I mean, I tend to lean left on alot but it's such bullshit. The republicans want to fuck you. The democrats want to fuck you. The democrats are willing to use lube and give us a reach around after and we think that's a good deal?

 

[The Jason]

But democratic talking points are more valid?

I mean, I tend to lean left on alot but it's such bullshit. The republicans want to fuck you. The democrats want to fuck you. The democrats are willing to use lube and give us a reach around after and we think that's a good deal?

Not that they are more valid, but rather less often completely fallacious.

 

[Violet_0]

only GAF?

more like the whole internet

 

[maharg]

only GAF?

more like the whole internet

When people say this I can only imagine they've never visited more than a handful of websites on the internet. Have you actually been out there? Comment boxes internet wide are filled with some of the most right wing reactionary stuff you can imagine.

 

[FStop7]

Social conservatives and libertarians are in the process of hijacking it from them. The tea party movement isn't neoconservative.

I don't really agree. I look at Palin and Bachmann and Ryan and I see the same tired old neocon tropes.

 

[blame space]

Freedom: Good or Bad?

 

[Bornstellar]

Educated people often tend to lean left in politics for the obvious reasons (common sense), and most people on gaf are educated.

Already addressed but still quoted. So I ask, prove it.

 

[Perspicacity]

Why do people want this? Seriously. Learn a lesson from the US and Australia about having a bicameral system where both houses are elected through completely different electoral systems and how it leads to deadlock.

Also, giving the GG's powers to an elected official free to use them because he's backed by the will of the people, in *addition* to the massive powers already granted to the Prime Minister (more by far than most presidents)? Wow. Let's take the road to dictatorship a little more seriously here, shall we?

Frankly I'd take a deadlock over any sort of majority government left completely unchecked and able to push through anything they want for five years.

 

[jerry1594]

Freedom: Good or Bad?

blame space I would have voted for you

 

[NullPointer]

In my experience here it seems like most conservatives and republicans don't want to put their own case forward, cite their sources, argue their points, or change minds.

I wish it wasn't the case, but that's sure how it seems.

 

[Freezie KO]

Freedom: Good or Bad?

Too Human.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I'm guessing the major reasons are:

1. GAF is an educated bunch (there's a correlation between "left" and higher education)
2. GAF is an international crowd (what's right in the US is extreme-right in Europe)
3. GAF is a younger crowd (younger people are more likely to be leftists)

 

[Gregorn]

Can someone sum up the differences between both parties for someone that is extremely uneducated and doesn't want to read wikipedia articles?

All I know is that republicans hate gays.

 

[maharg]

I don't really agree. I look at Palin and Bachmann and Ryan and I see the same tired old neocon tropes.

Well, it's foreign policy where things differ here, mostly. I think that while the tea party is often in support of foreign intervention, it tends to be almost exclusively in support of Israel rather than out of any broad support for the democratization of the world that characterizes real neoconservatism. It's a lust for violence rather than a belief that violence is a tool to achieve a more peaceful world.

Maybe that's too subtle a distinction to matter, but I think it does.

Also, the libertarian side of things is pretty firmly opposed to neoconservative ideals and it's pretty much undeniable that that wing of the party is on the rise, even if they weren't able to get Ron Paul much in the way of official victories.

 

[Bornstellar]

I'm guessing the major reasons are:

1. GAF is an educated bunch (there's a correlation between "left" and higher education)
2. GAF is an international crowd (what's right in the US is extreme-right in Europe)
3. GAF is a younger crowd (younger people are more likely to be leftists)

Can someone sum up the differences between both parties for someone that is extremely uneducated and doesn't want to read wikipedia articles?

All I know is that republicans hate gays.

.

 

[jchap]

most people on gaf are educated.

Hah good one!

 

[Something Wicked]

Being an independent myself, it seems GAF has always leaned very far into the left.. Why is this?

It will soon begin to lean less to the left...

 

[Bornstellar]

Well, it's foreign policy where things differ here, mostly. I think that while the tea party is often in support of foreign intervention, it tends to be almost exclusively in support of Israel rather than out of any broad support for the democratization of the world that characterizes real neoconservatism. It's a lust for violence rather than a belief that violence is a tool to achieve a more peaceful world.

Maybe that's too subtle a distinction to matter, but I think it does.

Also, the libertarian side of things is pretty firmly opposed to neoconservative ideals and it's pretty much undeniable that that wing of the party is on the rise, even if they weren't able to get Ron Paul much in the way of official victories.

Okay, where do you get that idea from? Can you prove it?

 

[demon]

Smart, reasonable people in the US tend to be "left" because in the US "left" is really pretty centrist. These days if you truly side with the Republican party, you're an extremist. That is a generalization though, and there are republicans even on this forum who (thankfully) can at least see the faults in their own party.

Also, I remember a period, maybe around '01-'02, where I'm pretty sure this forum was more conservative than liberal. I didn't post here much at the time though.

 

[Freezie KO]

.

dat education

 

[Violet_0]

When people say this I can only imagine they've never visited more than a handful of websites on the internet. Have you actually been out there? Comment boxes internet wide are filled with some of the most right wing reactionary stuff you can imagine.

well, I tend to frequent more heavily moderated forums such as SA. Reading Youtube or news article comments usually doesn't seem like a good idea to me. But really, I'm having a hard time thinking of a large online community that tends to be more conservative.

 

[The Technomancer]

I imagine there are a lot of more moderate "liberals" on GAF who would have identified with aspects of the Republican party back when it represented a modicum of fiscal conservatism. But with the shift that we've seen in recent decades "conservatism" has increasingly come to refer to social conservatism and brings with it a lot of the honestly incorrect "opinions" that that now drags along with it. (gay parents are bad for a child, black people are different from white people, etc) And opinions that can be refuted by looking at literally just about any scientific study on the topic don't last long in an environment like GAF

 

[mr2xxx]

One of my professors mentioned that if you were liberal or conservative before coming into college then college would just strengthen those beliefs.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Not that they are more valid, but rather less often completely fallacious.

I'll generally agree with this.

 

[Gamecocks625]

It's the moderators plus the fact that many gaffers are influenced by Gaf itself. It's the hive mentality here. The conservatives are silenced here, but we do exist. Most of us just don't care enough to make a fuss or get banned because we like Gaf for the non political stuff.

high five

Conservative-GAF for life