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[ClovingWestbrook]

Ya... That explanation totally did not help at all. You just come off as condescending whether you mean to or not.

Yep. Opiate, what do you do profession wise? Unless you are in medicine or science you come across as a hypocrite.

 

[Good Job Bob]

Opiate: Is watching films a waste of time? If so doesn't that make the work of great filmmakers such as Stanley Kubrick inherently wasteful and meaningless creations?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

What about the social aspect of these activities?

When I play video games, I may not improve my intelligence or physical abilities, but I can tell you right now I have made several good friends through video games (and I'm talking about real life friends, not online). I play games with these people, socialize with them, unwind and talk about our work days, etc.

Is friendship not a valuable thing gained from a hobby? Why does a hobby have to improve you as a person? Why can it not instead improve someone else's life by gaining you as a friend?

The same concept applies to watching sports. Many people watch sports with friends/family.

Bingo.

 

[reilo]

Opiate: Is watching films a waste of time? If so doesn't that make the work of great filmmakers such as Stanley Kubrick inherently wasteful and meaningless creations?

By his line of thinking, Shakespeare writing literature or Beethoven writing music was a waste of time, too.

 

[Opiate]

But this discussion has moved away from football specifically to sports in general. You stated that sports holds no objective value. I gave you examples of how it does.

You cannot just say that at the end of the day it still holds no objective value because it can be replaced by another similar activity. By that line of thinking, you are making the argument that any activity that can produce the same subjective and/or objective results hold no objective value because they are replaceable by another similarly equal activity.

Correct. Absolutely.

If Shakespeare wrote music instead of literature and produced equally important work for society is not an argument against literature or Shakespeare writing McBeth instead of a symphony written in D Minor.

It depends. Is the value of Shakespeare entertainment?

"Jai Alai could provide the same level of economic benefit and subjective mental effects over football" is not an argument for or against football because you subjectively dismissed both. Comparing one to the other is a false equivalency.

Why is it a false equivalency? Both are sports. Both have been very popular in different eras and different cultures.

The reality is that sports provide economic, technological (Formula 1 technology trickling down to mass-consumer vehicles), medical (already provided examples of medical achievements that were produced from sports medicine) and other subjective (as written about ad nauseum) benefits

You are deciding to dismiss sports based on your own subjective criteria of what society should and should not be doing as meaningful activity.

Incorrect -- I am going to dismiss them based on objective metrics. You can point to things which are objectively meaningful; sports just isn't one of those things.



And I'd argue that in and of itself is objective value because that is the reality we live in. Jai Alai holds very little (or no) objective value in our society because it is not popular enough to influence society on a greater scale.[/QUOTE]

 

[bengraven]

I'm doing my best to remain dispassionate and considerate of other people's preferences and ideas. While I cannot speak for you in particular, I know that many people take my deliberately dispassionate and calm demeanor for "too serious."

No, not me, but I can see how some people take what you say to heart. You're an intelligent person who by remaining dispassionate might be making them feel like they're arguing with a robot. ha

 

[Adam Prime]

I used to be a big sports guy, I never missed a Super Bowl. Getting married and having kids changes all of that. I watched VeggieTales on Netflix with my daughter this evening, then we went through our usual bedtime routine, reading books, etc. Couldn't give a damn about the Super Bowl anymore, wouldn't dream of wasting time watching it over spending with my wife and daughter nowadays.

... Sounds like a goood game. Watching the highlights now that she's in bed!

 

[Opiate]

Opiate: Is watching films a waste of time? If so doesn't that make the work of great filmmakers such as Stanley Kubrick inherently wasteful and meaningless creations?

It depends on its purpose. If it's entertainment/escapism, then likely yes. Some films, however, are made to convey a specific, complex idea or emotion that cannot otherwise be conveyed. That makes the discussion much more complex.

By his line of thinking, Shakespeare writing literature or Beethoven writing music was a waste of time, too.

Incorrect, unless you think both Shakespeare and Beethoven function primarily as entertainment.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

No, not me, but I can see how some people take what you say to heart. You're an intelligent person who by remaining dispassionate might be making them feel like they're arguing with a robot. ha

Many of us have felt that way long before this thread.

 

[NomarTyme]

Woman made him miss the best game ever.

 

[Dead Man]

Incorrect, unless you think both Shakespeare and Beethoven function primarily as entertainment.

I think you will struggle to show that Beethoven was ever more than entertainment.

 

[Future]

Yep. Opiate, what do you do profession wise? Unless you are in medicine or science you come across as a hypocrite.

He's not saying he doesn't indulge in meaningless activities as well.

I still disagree, however. The social aspect and adrenaline rush one can get while watching sports is meaningful. It creates memories and moments that are hard if not impossible to recreate with other types of entertainment or activities. And this is not childish, or something to dismiss at a certain age

Now clearly, sports themselves are not important. Whether the giants actually won or not means nothing in the grand scheme of life. But to argue this is difficult, because it applies to the vast majority of all activities, and probably 100% of anything that can be construed as entertainment

 

[Opiate]

Yep. Opiate, what do you do profession wise? Unless you are in medicine or science you come across as a hypocrite.

I'm a database administrator for a hospital, while simultaneously going back to school to major in economics.

But there is no hypocrisy here. I already admitted that I watch and enjoy baseball, and that I play and enjoy video games.

Suggesting those are silly activities anyway is not hypocritical. Again, I also recognize that eating a hostess cupcake is an objectively poor decision, but sometimes I do it anyway. Stating that some choices are better than others does not mean that I personally always make the better choice.

I'm also not as kind a person as many people, and not as smart as many people -- it's absolutely true that those people are better people than I am. I freely admit that many of my choices are quite sub-optimal, and that's fine because none of us are perfect.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

what an awful woman

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Nvm.

 

[bengraven]

Many of us have felt that way long before this thread.

I guess I'm fairly new to Opiate-age.

 

[jstevenson]

I made the same mistake with college conference championship football week. It is a problem

 

[WanderingWind]

Opiate, you've said you're confused too many times now. At what point do you wish to seek clarity, rather than the continuous loop of dispensing condescension and apologizing statements you find yourself in?

You've stated you thought the collective GAF as more mature than whatever arbitrary metric you've set. Yet, your actions are hardly more mature - even if more eloquent and verbose - than any of the people you are "surprised" by. It's not maturity that speaks as to the meaning behind the lives led by others you know little to nothing about. It's hubris of the ugliest kind.

 

[RBH]

If we do everything based on the intrinsic benefit to society then what the fuck is the point of individualism, ever.

Bravo.

 

[computers putin']

The Fuck........?

 

[TheOMan]

Nvm.

Gah stealth edit.

In any case - I think I see your view point now Opiate.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Gah stealth edit.

In any case - I think I see your view point now Opiate.

I see it, doesn't make it valid or less condescending and judgmental.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Dude let's like....take all that energy and shit we put into the Super Bowl and shit and go to like.....the moon, man.

Idk where I stand on this one. Kinda see what Opiate is saying though.

 

[Trigger Warning]

.

 

[reilo]

It depends. Is the value of Shakespeare entertainment?

Does it matter? Humans created written language to be able to communicate better with one another. It has evolved beyond that, obviously. Should the only written work we have access to be books about scientific research (ie medical books detailing how to do a medical procedure or how to learn Calculus)? Because by your line of thinking, any fictional work holds no objective meaning and society would be better off if literary fiction did not exist. This is an argument that is all too familiar as depicted in Fahrenheit 451.

Why is it a false equivalency? Both are sports. Both have been very popular in different eras and different cultures.

They are false equivalencies because Jai Adai does not provide many of the measurable societal benefits that a major league sport like football provides. Are bicycles equivalent to driving a motorized vehicle? After all, both are more efficient means of transportation than walking.

Incorrect -- I am going to dismiss them based on objective metrics.

But you subjectively dismissed the measurable objective benefits I provided. Why?

You can point to things which are objectively meaningful; sports just isn't one of those things.

According to you, which I find to be subjective ideals that you place on society as a whole.

I have provided many great measurable and objective benefits that sports has provided to society beyond "makes me feel good when my team wins" that you are for one reason or another choosing to ignore.

Incorrect, unless you think both Shakespeare and Beethoven function primarily as entertainment.

What else would they function as?

 

[Good Job Bob]

It depends on its purpose. If it's entertainment/escapism, then likely yes. Some films, however, are made to convey a specific, complex idea or emotion that cannot otherwise be conveyed. That makes the discussion much more complex.

You've stated that you often engage in and enjoy "silly" escapist activities such as playing video games and eating hostess cakes; how can you not see the inherently valuable purpose these activities hold for society as a whole if that's the case?

Why is their no inherent meaningful value in causing enjoyment? You believe that activities that help further the length of human lives are inherently meaningful; but what would the purpose of these human lives that are being extended be if they can't enjoy and engage in entertaining activities? Their'd be little purpose to them. Little meaning.

An argument could be made that not only are entertaining and escapist activities inherently meaningful, but that they are the crux of meaningfulness, the crux of value, and the crux of purpose.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Dude let's like....take all that energy and shit we put into the Super Bowl and shit and go to like.....the moon, man.

maybe we could build a rainbow colony there with the power of our DREAMS

 

[WanderingWind]

You've stated that you often engage in and enjoy "silly" escapist activities such as playing video games and eating hostess cakes; how can you not see the inherently valuable purpose these activities hold for society as a whole if that's the case?

I've asked him this a couple of times. What he does is silly, but beneficial. What others do is silly, but not beneficial. How is that hard to understand?

 

[Dicer]

I really hope he is using her like a dirty whore right now...

 

[FStop7]

Can we please take a step back for a moment and re-focus on the issue that actually matters:

Leather dresses. Hot or not?

 

[Shambles]

So if it's cool if we skip our anniversaries for a handegg game then does that mean it's ok if I skip out on my anniversary in order to complete a WoW raid?

This is what you look like to everyone outside of your NFL bubble.

 

[braves01]

It depends on its purpose. If it's entertainment/escapism, then likely yes. Some films, however, are made to convey a specific, complex idea or emotion that cannot otherwise be conveyed. That makes the discussion much more complex.



Incorrect, unless you think both Shakespeare and Beethoven function primarily as entertainment.

Shakespeare is entertaining, but that doesn't negate the deeper meanings it has.

Ditto for sports.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I have fun by analyzing. This is how I unwind and entertain myself. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Which is useless and a waste, I'm assuming?

I'm not putting people down; I'm putting pass times down. If you can't suggest that certain beliefs or behaviors are silly, then we can have no discussion at all. Many people enjoy many things which are a waste of time. For example, eating hostess cupcakes is extremely unhealthy and is a poor dietary choice. Am I ridiculing people by making that clearly objectively true claim? Millions of people eat hostess cupcakes. And yet, that doesn't make eating them a good choice, and we can objectively measure its value (or lack thereof).

Just because certain activities are silly to me doesn't mean they are silly to others. Why you can't see this is beyond me. Perhaps you just refuse to. I find reading comics to be silly; however, many people who've contributed to our economy through movies, games, books, and yes, comic books grew up reading comic books. It helped spurn their creativity, their ambition to go far in life. It helped them imagine a new world that had never been conceived beforehand. Just because I find reading comic books to be silly doesn't mean it's silly to read comic books.

This could be said of literally anything. There are people who passionately love Hello Kitty, and whose love of Hello Kitty has helped them through hard times; that doesn't make Hello Kitty a serious or inherently meaningful creation.

It is serious if it helps a person achieve some type of happiness that they otherwise wouldn't be able to. After my wife and I lost our daughter I was able to get enjoyment, happiness out of watching and following sports, playing video games, and even joining NeoGAF. Joining NeoGAF and posting on this forum while 'silly' to many has helped me in ways I can't fully communicate and I'm confident others here share my experience.

I was able to have my political views challenged to the point that I am now in favor of equality for the gay community while I wasn't before joining this forum. So was posting here silly? My empathy for those uninsured was strengthened as well, so was my posting here silly? I developed relationships with people that are extremely important, relationships that I do value greatly. Was my posting here silly? This forum has helped me get through many difficult times in the last four years, so was my posting here silly? No. No it wasn't.

 

[dream]

Incorrect, unless you think both Shakespeare and Beethoven function primarily as entertainment.

Doesn't the former? Wasn't the point of Lord Chamberlain's Men to provide entertainment?

 

[Steelrain]

So if it's cool if we skip our anniversaries for a handegg game then does that mean it's ok if I skip out on my anniversary in order to complete a WoW raid?

This is what you look like to everyone outside of your NFL bubble.

You can reschedule a raid. The Super Bowl happens one time a year.

Unless I can call the commissioner and tell him to have the Super Bowl on Saturday because my wife is being a bitch.

 

[Amory]

So if it's cool if we skip our anniversaries for a handegg game then does that mean it's ok if I skip out on my anniversary in order to complete a WoW raid?

This is what you look like to everyone outside of your NFL bubble.

This is a stupid analogy. The super bowl is more of an event than a game for most people. Only two teams play, the likelihood one of them is yours is fairly remote. It's more an excuse to get together with friends and have a party with a football game on in the background.

Most super bowl parties I've been to there's like 4 or 5 people glued to the game and the rest of the people just eat drink and socialize the whole time.

 

[Opiate]

Shakespeare is entertaining, but that doesn't negate the deeper meanings it has.

Ditto for sports.

Sports have no deeper meaning.

Which is useless and a waste, I'm assuming?

It certainly can be, yes!

Just because certain activities are silly to me doesn't mean they are silly to others. Why you can't see this is beyond me. Perhaps you just refuse to.

I don't think you're understanding me. I enjoy baseball; I still recognize that it's objectively meaningless. This isn't about my personal preferences, as personal preferences are irrelevant, logically.

I find reading comics to be silly; however, many people who've contributed to our economy through movies, games, books, and yes, comic books grew up reading comic books. It helped spurn their creativity, their ambition to go far in life. It helped them imagine a new world that had never been conceived beforehand. Just because I find reading comic books to be silly doesn't mean it's silly to read comic books.

Okay, I think I see the problem here. We aren't discussing personal preferences here. Some activities are inherently more meaningful than others. This isn't about personal preferences.



It is serious if it helps a person achieve some type of happiness that they otherwise wouldn't be able to. After my wife and I lost our daughter I was able to get enjoyment, happiness out of watching and following sports, playing video games, and even joining NeoGAF. Joining NeoGAF and posting on this forum while 'silly' to many has helped me in ways I can't fully communicate and I'm confident others here share my experience.

I was able to have my political views challenged to the point that I am now in favor of equality for the gay community while I wasn't before joining this forum. So was posting here silly? My empathy for those uninsured was strengthened as well, so was my posting here silly? I developed relationships with people that are extremely important, relationships that I do value greatly. Was my posting here silly? This forum has helped me get through many difficult times in the last four years, so was my posting here silly? No. No it wasn't.[/QUOTE]

 

[Yasae]

Of course it does. But that money could have been generated by anything that people happen to care about -- it isn't specific or inherent to Football.

If everyone in America instead loved Jai Alai, then suddenly that person's income is no longer dependent on American Rules Football, and is instead dependent on Jai Alai. Or maybe we all loved watching Starcraft 2 matches instead. Or debating objective meaning. It doesn't matter; we could in theory have attached interest to anything. It just so happens we have attached interest to American Rules Football in our particular culture. If you looked at any other culture in history, it would be different.

There's nothing inherent in the game of football that makes it particularly or especially worth as much money as it is. Again, if people stopped caring about American Rules Football tomorrow, then the staffer's ability to make a living on it would disappear, overnight.

It's only worth as much money as it generates, and it generates plenty. Perhaps it's an inflated spectacle nowadays, but there's lots of dough changing hands.

Is Nicole Kidman's performance in a film worth $20M alone? 10? 5? Hard to say, but she's not paid based on the quality of her performance. She generates revenue based on her name being attached and is paid equivalently - even if the film bombs.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Demanding that someone miss the super bowl for your anniversary is analogous to demanding someone miss Christmas for your birthday party.

 

[reilo]

Have you ever participated in any team sports Opiate? Because this is wrong on many levels:

Sports have no deeper meaning.

I have cultivated/expanded on many existing relationships and made many great new friends by not only participating in sports and doing physical group activities, but by also sharing a common fandom with others. I have also benefited from learning how to work within a team better in sports than in any group project at school. Does that not hold any meaning?

 

[Good Job Bob]

Opiate: what is "objective meaningfulness"?

 

[Opiate]

You've stated that you often engage in and enjoy "silly" escapist activities such as playing video games and eating hostess cakes; how can you not see the inherently valuable purpose these activities hold for society as a whole if that's the case?

Why is their no inherent meaningful value in causing enjoyment?

I didn't necessarily say there wasn't. I said there is nothing inherently enjoyable about Football. If I go to France, suddenly everyone finds American Rules Football boring and nobody wants to watch it. Poof! Where did the enjoyment go? By contrast, if I move to France, fire will still burn me. Vaccines will still prevent disease. Gravity is still in effect. Satellites still work.

You believe that activities that help further the length of human lives are inherently meaningful;

I think it's an extreme minority opinion to argue otherwise, but it isn't necessary for my position. The point is that it objectively functions as intended. Whether I happen to believe in Vaccines or not, they help extend lifespans; by contrast, if I don't care about football, then suddenly it loses its power to entertain. Where did it go? Imagine if moving to another country made medicine not work.

Opiate: what is "objective meaningfulness"?

Something that functions whether you happen to care about it or not.

Vaccines work even if you believe "western medicine" is a farse. Satellites harness special relativity to their advantage whether you think Einstein is boring or not. Computers work whether you understand transistor logic or not.

 

[Trey]

Well not to be a dick to others but sports are insignificant. Science, politics, those are things that are important. Those are things that change the world as they have tremendous effect on people.

Sports are merely a hobby of intense athleticism.

But in terms of it being "silly", well define "silly". This is a video game forum. Many people out there consider games as children's toys. Are we silly for being so into them?

I can't imagine anybody having a reasonable opinion who thinks anything else.

A hobby that provide millions with jobs and are an indispensible source of entertainment and commerce.

Nothing is inherently enjoyable to everyone. This argument is nonsense.

Whether I happen to believe in Vaccines or not, they help extend lifespans; by contrast, if I don't enjoy football, then suddenly it loses its power to entertain. Where did it go?

You can be immune to a vaccine. Oh, where did your lifespan increase go? Not objective enough, throw it away.

 

[Opiate]

You can be immune to a vaccine. Oh, where did your lifespan increase go? Not objective enough, throw it away.

Absolutely, medicinal science isn't perfect and no doctor would argue otherwise. We also can't cure many diseases at all, such as type I pancreatic carcinoma. But your immunity to vaccine is not subject to your personal whims. This is an important distinction.

 

[Big-E]

Something that functions whether you happen to care about it or not.

Vaccines work even if you believe "western medicine" is a farse. Satellites harness special relativity to their advantage whether you think Einstein is boring or not. Computers work whether you understand transistor logic or not.

And every day across the world, millions of people around the world derive enjoyment from the meaningless progression of a ball down a field whether you understand it or not.

 

[Good Job Bob]

I didn't necessarily say there wasn't. I said there is nothing inherently enjoyable about Football. If I go to France, suddenly everyone finds American Rules Football boring and nobody wants to watch it. Poof! Where did the enjoyment go? By contrast, if I move to France, fire will still burn me. Vaccines will still prevent disease. Gravity is still in effect. Satellites still work.

If you moved to France, the enjoyment didn't go anywhere; all the people that enjoy American Rules Football are still right there in America.

I think it's an extreme minority opinion to argue otherwise, but it isn't necessary for my position. The point is that it objectively functions as intended. Whether I happen to believe in Vaccines or not, they help extend lifespans; by contrast, if I don't enjoy football, then suddenly it loses its power to entertain. Where did it go?

If you don't enjoy football, then it loses it's power to entertain vast amounts of people? I think not.

Something that functions whether you happen to care about it or not.

Vaccines work even if you believe "western medicine" is a farse. Satellites harness special relativity to their advantage whether you think Einstein is boring or not. Computers work whether you understand transistor logic or not.

Even if you believe the super bowl is an ultimately silly meaningless game, on Super Bowl Sunday millions of people all across America find meaning and enjoyment in it.

 

[Opiate]

Have you ever participated in any team sports Opiate? Because this is wrong on many levels:

Yes. I was a state-level swimmer in high school.

I have cultivated/expanded on many existing relationships and made many great new friends by not only participating in sports and doing physical group activities, but by also sharing a common fandom with others. I have also benefited from learning how to work within a team better in sports than in any group project at school. Does that not hold any meaning?

By this standard, I could be a dedicated Pokemon enthusiast, and meet a woman who also is extremely enthusiastic about Pokemon. Does that make Pokemon meaningful? By this standard, what isn't meaningful? Surely any subject could be something people bond over, be it sports or Pokemon or street signs.

 

[Dead Man]

Absolutely, medicinal science isn't perfect and no doctor would argue otherwise. We also can't cure many diseases at all, such as type I pancreatic carcinoma. But your immunity to vaccine is not subject to your personal whims. This is an important distinction.

I'm not sure that discovering what gives you happiness and thus contributes to your mental health is a personal whim either. I could try to like ballet for years and fail, but I know I can't quit car racing, reading, and cooking.

 

[RDreamer]

I didn't necessarily say there wasn't. I said there is nothing inherently enjoyable about Football. If I go to France, suddenly everyone finds American Rules Football boring and nobody wants to watch it. Poof! Where did the enjoyment go? By contrast, if I move to France, fire will still burn me. Vaccines will still prevent disease. Gravity is still in effect. Satellites still work.

Huh? If you enjoy watching football and then move to France you don't magically stop liking football. There surely is something inherently enjoyable about football or any sport in general. I could have a good time watching a game featuring two teams I knew nothing or had no connections to at all, so there has to be some inherent enjoyment to be found in the sport.

 

[Yasae]

Yes. I was a state-level swimmer in high school.



By this standard, I could be a dedicated Pokemon enthusiast, and meet a woman who also is extremely enthusiastic about Pokemon. Does that make Pokemon meaningful? By this standard, what isn't meaningful? Surely any subject could be something people bond over, be it sports or Pokemon or street signs.

How meaningful football is could turn into a long, pointless debate. I wager it will and has.

But it most certainly has monetary worth. That is not a debate.