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Why the Dreamcast was/is better than the PS2...

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
ArcadeStickMonk said:
NFSU 1280x1024 Full Detail 60fps

it cost me money

I'd rather buy more games than play something old at 1280x1024. ;)

Man really? DCA VGA Adapter was great. I remember playing JGR and even NFL2K on it vs. my TV and the difference was almost laughable (of course, I used it out of necessity too and just for couchability, I probably would have used the TV otherwise), the games looked GREAT on the VGA; in fact I played over 50 games on it and I can't think of many that didn't look significantly better.

It was SOOOO CLEAR though. You could clearly see the rather awful texture artifacts in many games, the already poor special effects in most games were now very grainy looking, and the overall look just wasn't as appealing. I mostly used a 19" monitor, though, so 640x480 is kinda bad looking anyways. On a smaller monitor, it did look a bit better...

JSR was especially bad on VGA, I thought. Soul Calibur, DOA2 and Sonic Adventure 2 were probably the best looking games to play on VGA IMO. Other games like MDK2, RE-CV, JSR, and Ecco all suffered from it. It just depended on the game. A lot of DC games had that "nVidia TNT 16-bit color" look...which is to say that it just looked ultra grainy. 16-bit color doesn't necessarily mean something will have that appearance ya know...but DC certainly did in most cases.

I would love to be able to convert VGA to component video so that I can run it in 480p on my TV. I believe THAT would look VERY good and replicate the appearance of those nice screens used for various Naomi games. Those converters all seem to cost a bit too much, though. $100+ for a system I don't play often doesn't really seem worth it to me. I don't understand why Sega never tried to release a component cable. I mean, come on, they already supported VGA. I know HD sets were not nearly as common back then, but it would have been nice...
 

DCX

DCX
dark10x said:
I'd take more detail over image quality any day. I'd much rather turn a PC game down to 640x480 and run at full detail than to drop those details in order to hit 1280x1024.

Of course, like I said, image quality is becoming less of an issue. You mention Ratchet and Clank, yet R&C 2 and 3 both support progressive scan and would work with a VGA adaptor.

As I've said many times before, I'm not impressed with the DC VGA adaptor. I used it simply because I had no choice, but I would have used a TV over it any day. It was TOO revealing and often made the games look worse than they would on a TV.
We're not talking a performace hit like PCs. We're talking running a game as it should be but the system displaying it differently. I would agree i would rather play a game with all effects etc than not, but that's not the issue at hand. You said it right, with better displays ( VGA/HDTV ) you will notice more flaws more often than not...that's the double edged sword...i just think if PS2 had more video RAM this wouldn't even be a debate...

DCX
 

Kiriku

SWEDISH PERFECTION
dark10x said:
The DC hardware subscribed to the old PC ideal of "detail via textures". It was beyond any PC at the time, of course, but it still relied heavily on the usage of flat textures to make up for lack of geometric detail.

Couldn't agree more. That's why DC games look dated to me now, they're just too blocky covered with detailed textures. Doesn't look very convincing to me.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
ypo said:
Voodoo 1 was superior to DC. 800x600 > 640x480.

I didn't think Voodoo 1 supported 800x600. IIRC, a single Voodoo 2 could produce 800x600 while SLI V2 cards could produce 1024x768. I thought the original Voodoo was limited to 640x480.
 

P90

Member
olimario said:
I don't know what this topic is or where it's headed, but I need to say that Skies is a terrible game and outside of story, I don't know how it gets ANY praise.

Aren't you the guy that likes Kirby's Air Ride?
 

Tsubaki

Member
Musashi Wins! said:
It's still better than the GC, but if you think SoA was the best thing about it I hope you're not allowed to own one.

:) Seriously, Arcadia is overrated garbage. Despite everything it did right, it ended up sucking for the few thngs it did wrong.

Hardware:

The DC hardware is great. 4p controller ports, 2 memory card slots on the controller, VMUs when used properly enhanced gameplay greatly (ie playcalling on NFL2k series), VGA output, and the first system to do 3d properly. I daresay the VMU was a revolutionary idea, that was overly underutilized by companies.

Software:

Atelier Marie & Elie
Bakuretsu Muteki Bangaioh
Black/Matrix AD
Border Down
Chu Chu Rocket
Culdcept II
DDR 2nd Mix
Gigawing
Gigawing 2
Grandia II
Ikaruga
JSR
Kita e: White Illumination
Last Blade 2
Mars Matrix
Metropolis Street Racer
Napple Tale
NBA2k series
NFL2k series
Psyvariar 2
Record of Lodoss Wars
Rez
Sakura Taisen
Sakura Taisen 3
Sakura Taisen Hanagumi Taisen Columns
Sakura Taisen Online (if you can believe it, the minigames are really good - proper 4p Mahjong, poker, daifugou and hanafuda and variations thereof)
Samba de Amigo
SGGG
Shikigami no Shiro II
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Space Channel 5
Space Channel 5 Pt 2
Street Fighter III: Double Impact
Street Fighter III: Third Strike
Toy Commander
Typing of the Dead
Virtua Tennis/Tennis 2k2

Those who think the Dreamcast has mediocre software obviously only played what everyone was hyping.
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
34444_1big.jpg
 
This topic blows. We're comparing the PS2 *now* to the DC *then*. Not exactly fair. When the DC was still around, it did blow the PS2 library out of the water. PS2 had an absolutely shit launch lineup and yet asshats were rubbing their PS2 DVD cases all over their fat blubbery bodies as if it had some kind of healing magic and could stop them from being ugly mutants, all because of the Sony logo. It was disgusting.

So yeah, PS2 wins but because its had a good couple of years on the DC.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
The Shadow said:
This topic blows. We're comparing the PS2 *now* to the DC *then*. Not exactly fair. When the DC was still around, it did blow the PS2 library out of the water. PS2 had an absolutely shit launch lineup and yet asshats were rubbing their PS2 DVD cases all over their fat blubbery bodies as if it had some kind of healing magic and could stop them from being ugly mutants, all because of the Sony logo. It was disgusting.

So yeah, PS2 wins but because it's had a good couple of years on the DC.

Well, the launch mostly sucked...but just as Namco had Soul Calibur for the DC, they had Ridge Racer V for PS2. It just so happens that RRV is the best arcade racer released so far this gen. :)

PS2 sucked for a while. It wasn't until Twisted Metal Black that the releases started to kick serious ass. Oddly enough, TMB was released on the same day that I bought my final US Dreamcast game; Sonic Adventure 2. So, the real beginning of PS2 was the end of the DC for me... :(
 

XS+

Banned
Good god DC VGA on a 32" screen is absolutely gorgeous. I have a little less than 50 games in my DC library and I haven't seen 3D on the system that didn't look worlds better than it does through dithered composite/S-Video cables. The low color quality of the textures are that much more obvious (the main reason why I don't believe DC's texturing is better than PS2's), but there's no going back to inferior video connections for me after playing DC in progressive.
 
dark10x said:
It just so happens that RRV is the best arcade racer released so far this gen

shut up, snapperhead!
There's like ten Burnout 3 threads goin' on out there and you been bringing that up for the last twenty years!

don't be a rOOkie
 

Sho Nuff

Banned
Things I've learned from Dreamcast:

The console with the best lineup does not always win.
Don't do 3D unless you can do filtering and perspective correction. Just don't.
Volumetric effects / alternative rendering techniques will fuck you up like a heart attack (see Jet Set Radio).
No-frills ports from other lesser consoles are always underwhelming (Shadowman).
Games in my home can look just as good as games in the arcade (NAOMI).
Americans hate Virtua Fighter.
Simultaneous development with other consoles can be rewarding (San Francisco Rush 2049).
Dan Egger is a twat.
DOA2:LE looks better than DOA2:Hardcore.
Daytona USA 2001 UP YO' ASSES, BITCHES.
VGA boxes should be a requirement for all systems.
The dream is dead.
 

DCX

DCX
Sho Nuff said:
Things I've learned from Dreamcast:

The console with the best lineup does not always win.
Don't do 3D unless you can do filtering and perspective correction. Just don't.
Volumetric effects / alternative rendering techniques will fuck you up like a heart attack (see Jet Set Radio).
No-frills ports from other lesser consoles are always underwhelming (Shadowman).
Games in my home can look just as good as games in the arcade (NAOMI).
Americans hate Virtua Fighter.
Simultaneous development with other consoles can be rewarding (San Francisco Rush 2049).
Dan Egger is a twat.
DOA2:LE looks better than DOA2:Hardcore.
Daytona USA 2001 UP YO' ASSES, BITCHES.
VGA boxes should be a requirement for all systems.
The dream is dead.
....meh i agree and disagree...i really thought that all future systems would have VGA support...basically it's like having 480P in all games.

DCX
 

ypo

Member
core: 45-50 MHz
memory: 45-50 MHz 128bit (2*64bit)
trianglerate 1 MT / s
fillrate 45-50 MPxl / s ; 45-50 MTxl / s

card capabilities:

Bilinear Filtering
Alpha Blending
Line / Edge AntiAliasing
Flat / Gouraud Shading
LOD MipMapping
Z-Buffering
Double / Triple Buffering
Triangle Setup Engine
Perspectively Correct Texture Mapping
24bit internal, 16bit dithered RGB Frame Buffer

card parameters:

PCI
4 - 6 MB EDO RAM (2-4MB Frame Buffer and 2MB for textures)
Scalable architecture

API, rendering:

MS Direct 3D
3Dfx Glide
SGI OpenGL (miniport)
max. 640*480; 6MB cards max. 800*600

:D

http://www.voodoofiles.net/voodooboard/viewtopic.php?t=3790

Not sure if it's accurate though.
 
Man DC was so awesome back in the day. I kicked the living shit out of PS2 is every way. But you can't compare the two anymore, the PS2 has an insane library now. People bought PS2 back then because they knew the games would come eventually. Personally, I got to enjoy Soul Calibur, Virtua Tennis, Shenmue, Sonic, and the 2K series online. And I still prefer the original Soul Calibur, probably because the GC controller blows ass for playing fighting games.
 
Teddman said:
Demolition Racer: No Exit is an awesome, awesome DC racer. Great hybrid of crash'em up derby and racing action.

It also had a weird minigame that used the lightgun.

Speaking of the lightgun, DC brought us HOTD2 and Virtua Cop 2 (in the smash pack collection).
 
So, is there a way to have a VGA output from the DC converted to a component output, so I can run DC in progressive on my HDTV? That sure would be tops. I'm using the S-Video connection right now, and I wish it could look better.

Anyway, here are some games that I find to be absolutely bitchin:

Virtua Tennis
Tennis 2K2
Daytona
Test Drive: V-Rally
Test Drive: Le Mans
Metropolis Street Racer
Ferrari F335
MDK 2
Jet Grind Radio
Wacky Races
Powerstone
Marine Fishing (w/ the fishing reel controller!)
Grand Theft Auto 2
Street Fighter Alpha 3
UFC
King Of Fighters Evolution
Last Blade 2

Ahh, there are more that I can't remember.
 

DCX

DCX
Error Macro said:
So, is there a way to have a VGA output from the DC converted to a component output, so I can run DC in progressive on my HDTV? That sure would be tops. I'm using the S-Video connection right now, and I wish it could look better.

Anyway, here are some games that I find to be absolutely bitchin:

Virtua Tennis
Tennis 2K2
Daytona
Test Drive: V-Rally
Test Drive: Le Mans
Metropolis Street Racer
Ferrari F335
MDK 2
Jet Grind Radio
Wacky Races
Powerstone
Marine Fishing (w/ the fishing reel controller!)
Grand Theft Auto 2
Street Fighter Alpha 3
UFC
King Of Fighters Evolution
Last Blade 2

Ahh, there are more that I can't remember.
Yes you can..you have to buy an adapter that does VGA to Component...it's rather expensive...so i here...

DCX
 

MoxManiac

Member
The best part of DC for me, the 2D fighters, has been eclipsed by PS2 now, and the gap will further wide in the next year. Sorry Sega.
 

belgurdo

Banned
PuertoRicanJuice said:
And I still prefer the original Soul Calibur, probably because the GC controller blows ass for playing fighting games.


Uh, you do know SC2 is on three systems, right? Or, if you absolutely must play as Link, there's the fact that the cube has a stick, too...
 
DCX said:
To be honest, if Sony slapped PS2 on Dreamcast and Sega slapped DC on PS2 i wonder what would have happen? :D

DCX

PS2 would deserve it's gargantuan success, and have less DREs. SEGA? who knows... their fall was four years in the making..

I loved Dreamcast... first console I played online (PSO, Quake, others..), Soul Calibur, Powerstone, Grandia, Shenmue, Outrun, Samba Di Amigo, there's just so much genuine good to love.

Conversely, I wasn't enamoured with Tekken Tag and The Bouncer.
 
I love the DC myself but seriously,the games do look dated nowdays. Theyre way too blocky and compared to todays use of lighting in curent consoles,the games look sort of flat. The texture work is still awesome stuff to behold though.

Oh and I have to pimp some of my favorites,DC is still pumping out good shit in my house.

Draconus Cult of the Wrym(Truely an awesome hack and slash with some damn huge levels to explore.) The block and counter system were pretty fun to play with in this game,minotaurs were always a blast to fight against.)

Red Dog
Cannon Spike
Hydro hunder
Sonic Adventure
Propellar Arena
ShenMue
VF3TB(still the best VF in my opinion.)
Soul Calibur

Daytona Championship Online(Once you went into the options and tweaked the analog settings the game was just about total perfection. I loved the extra tracks, the new cars and the paint jobs,and tire management were also pretty slick. When going online it was all about using the Unicorn. if you could control it that is. It was like an elephant on skates,great speed but really bad handling. It was my weapon of choice when playing online,though it sucked to be accussed of cheating because it would leave others in the dust,LOL.)

Rush 2049
Sega Rally2
RayMan2

Zombie's Revenge(some love it,others hate it,I think the game is a cheesfest blast and is pure Sega.)

ShadowMan(I clocked 74 fucking hours in this one,mainly because i took my sweet time,exploring everything while enjoying the whole blood bath gore in the game. I still remember the opening level where youre in hell with that tormented female soul crying in the background,fuck that was just creepy. Great music too,too bad there aren't mp3s of this game floating around.)

D2(one of my favorites this gen,the whole depressing theme along with the rpg elements,the hunting for food side game,it all made the game very enjoyable. Best fruitful bosses ever too,like the Grandfather boss fighting with his parrots was hialarious shit to behold.)

Sword of the Berzerk
Confidental Mission
The at that time very underated Suzuki All Star Extreme Racing
F355
Test Drive Lemans
4 Wheel Thunder
and World Series 2K1(still with the best pitching hitting engine around.)

Theres also a pretty good emulation scene if you just look for it in the right places. I won't touch anymore on that though since its a touchy issue in this forum.
 

Xellos

Member
Dreamcast was a great system, and had some great games. For the time it was around I played it more than any other system. It would not have aged well, though. Today's games like GTA 3/VC/SA, Splinter Cell 1-3, MGS2/3, Halo 1/2, Fable, Ninja Gaiden, Kotor, etc. would either not have been possible on it or would had to have suffered a great reduction in both graphical detail and gameplay (sound as well for those that feature 5.1). The online features of DC, while great at the time (and still better than what Nintendo's offering) would have been eclipsed by XBox Live.

As a system the DC would have aged poorly. I look back on it fondly, but for all the pissing and moaning I did about DC's failure back then, I now realize Dreamcast's early demise was inevitable.
 

jett

D-Member
Dreamcast was an amazing console for it's time. It certainly PWNED! the PS2 during the yearh 2000...but nowadays the games look very dated and now that 3rd Strike is on PS2 i don't even have a reason to turn the little bitch on. It doesn't help that nearly every single DC game was hyped to the high heavens either.

SoA sucks.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
>Considering the DC has been gone for the last few years, I'd tend to disagree. Had serious development continued, it could most certainly hold its own and surpass the PS2, visually, in all the areas I mentioned.

The fact of the matter is, the software released starting during the Summer of 2001 was far and away beyond anything the Dreamcast had ever seen. By that point, the PS2 was about 1.5 years old. The DC lived beyond 1.5 years, my friend. The PS2 was a difficult platform to handle, yet many games were created that went far beyond the capabilities of the DC within a timeframe of serious DC development. Obviously, current PS2 titles are well beyond even those...but that isn't fair, as you say. If you look at the first two years of Dreamcast releases and compare them to the first two years of PS2 development, the PS2 is superior in MOST categories (though not all).

>What's the old saying? a good texture is worth 1,000 polygons? PS2 games at the time looked like shit--geometry bedamned. What DC had was fluid visual balance, plain and simple. The DC's "flat textures" still mop the floor with whatever the PS2 could produce. Games like Shenmue and Soul Calibur still prove this.

I disagree. Many early PS2 games DID look poor, but there were plenty of others that did not. Tekken Tag, Zone of the Enders, The Bouncer, and SSX were all games that stood above Dreamcast offerings. Shenmue proves nothing, as I believe it to be a rather poor looking title in comparison to many offerings (low poly, sluggish framerate, tiny sectors, many low-res textures, etc.)...and Soul Calibur only stands up as a result of artwork (the actual level of detail is MUCH lower than most serious fighting games today). Using textures to make up for lack of geometry is a HORRIBLE idea that I am glad is in the past. It was necessary back then, but that is no longer the case.

>True, however, again, I point out the the fact that serious dreamcast develpment ended years ago. I can guarantee you that, with continuing funding and research (not from small-time, no-name japanese companies, either) , The Dreamcast could have MORE than held its own today. It's a testament to the hardware. And VGA output is easily comparable, if not surpassing 480p in certain cases. (you're dealing with what is essentially the same resolutions--and without the line doubling crap the PS2 normally did due to its native 640 x 240 TV output)

You can guarantee? How so? We can argue this back and forth till the end of time and neither one of us could prove anything. Once again, what was achieved in the same amount of time on both platforms proved that PS2 was stronger hardware. You also realize that progressive scan 480p is the same as DC's VGA output? With a VGA adaptor, all 480p supporting games can be displayed on a monitor in the same fashion.

>Again, I disagree. a number of high-profile and cross platform titles used super sampling, and it shows, especially in screen comparisons. Not that I have the time or the patience to dig them up, :-D

No, they did not. There were, at most, a very limited handful of DC games that used multi-sampling. I want you to dig them up, because I believe you are incorrect.

>I'll give it to you, however, again, I will refer to the fact that DC development never REALLY got to hit its prime like the PS2 did. The DC is still, to this day, more than a match for Sony's box.

Like I've already said, go ahead and compare the same time frame of development between the platforms. The DC is not a match for the direction that modern visuals have moved towards.

>Um, do you live under a rock or something, friend? The first wave was RIFE with problems, to say nothing of our demo kiosk (which had the tendancy to freeze after 3 hours, and multiple replacement units) upon which said comic is ACTUALLY based--it's a retail joke, man, get over it :) .

XBOX was FAAAARRRRR worse in this regard, with kiosks demonstrating everything from fatal errors to skipping video and audio. What did it prove? First gen PS2s were awful, but "overheating" was not one of the problems associated with them.

>Having said that, as the owner of 3 Dreamcasts (and a participant in many a marathon gaming session) I've never once had one overheat. Oh yes, they do get hot--but that's the heat dissipation actually DOING ITS JOB :). You want to talk about issues, I'll gladly refer you to the "PS2 plague" or "Disk Syphallus" that sony's machine continually experiences--or the tidal wave of defective units that came back during the 2002-03 holiday seasons.

The Gamecube is the only machine to have truly escaped a large number of issues. Disc read errors are not related to overheating, and those are, by and large, the most common problems you'll find on PS2 machines.
 
We'll never know the full extent of the DC's power because development halted far too soon. I'm sure if games were still being made for it today they would look very close to the PS2 versions and in terms of texturing go beyond it to approach GC levels.

I'll reiterate the point that frame buffer and lighting technologies only came into vogue around late 2000. Very few games on any console were using them seriously at that time so their low showing and use in DC games is not surprising. Of course given the nature and creativity of game developers you would have seen these effects become more mainstream on DC.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Tsubaki said:
that was overly underutilized by companies.

Cannot...compute...head...exploding. :p


This topic blows. We're comparing the PS2 *now* to the DC *then*. Not exactly fair. When the DC was still around, it did blow the PS2 library out of the water. PS2 had an absolutely shit launch lineup and yet asshats were rubbing their PS2 DVD cases all over their fat blubbery bodies as if it had some kind of healing magic and could stop them from being ugly mutants, all because of the Sony logo. It was disgusting.

LOL That made me laugh. :p
 

lachesis

Member
Well, in my opinion - which I'm not too tech savvy so I can't really be too accurate - but I am pretty convinced that DC was able to produce more respectable graphics for at least a couple more years, even compared to the current machines not to mention PS2 as well. Probably it was on dying breed from this point on - but when you think of a timeframe, it's about right. Not necessarily technologically any superior or equal to today's term - but I'm pretty positive that developers would have pushed the system far enough, it would fake the effects in terms of visuals. (such as transparency on genesis / 2x pallete on X-ranger, scaling rotaing etc.). It worked on Genesis, and I can't see why not on DC, which IMHO is more developer-friendly and flexible machine to develop than PS2, especially with more VRAM, and texture compression and all.

However, we are looking at now "what if" situation. I don't know - it's sometimes fun to beat around the issue, but none of us will be proven "right" because DC is long gone and dead - and all we see is 3+yr old games with dated graphics...

As for the DC's graphics beind dated looking, people should really take a long look at the most games at that time period. Granted, today's graphics look sleeker and better - but I do believe DC would have at least tried its best to cope up with such, even if it meant faking it. ;)

lachesis
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Warm Machine said:
We'll never know the full extent of the DC's power because development halted far too soon. I'm sure if games were still being made for it today they would look very close to the PS2 versions and in terms of texturing go beyond it to approach GC levels.

I'll reiterate the point that frame buffer and lighting technologies only came into vogue around late 2000. Very few games on any console were using them seriously at that time so their low showing and use in DC games is not surprising. Of course given the nature and creativity of game developers you would have seen these effects become more mainstream on DC.

By the time the DC reached Age 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Gran Turismo 3, Jak and Daxter, Silent Hill 2, ICO, ZOE, and Final Fantasy X were all released on the PS2 (in the US, so perhaps earlier in Japan in regards to certain titles). At that point, it was later 2001, so the PS2 had been around since March of 2000. Where was the DC at after roughly 1.5 years? It was around May of 2000 that the DC reached 1.5 years of age. At that point, the DC was going very strong and developers were still very serious. It would have its best Christmas yet that coming year and the system was really kicking ass. 2000 was a great year for the DC.

Around the time it reached 1.5 years of age, games such as Resident Evil - Code Veronica, MDK2, Rayman 2, Crazy Taxi, and DOA2 were available. The point I was trying to make was that, after 1.5 years, those PS2 games listed above were technically beyond what the DC was offering after 1.5 years of life.

I do not believe that frame buffer effects were simply "ignored" on DC. I don't believe the DC could produce the types of effects the PS2 was doing. Quite frankly, it took the PC a couple years before it could replicate those effects. It was simply something the hardware wasn't designed to do. I don't believe the PVR2 had the fillrate to pull it off. The opening tanker sequence in MGS2 chugs on the XBOX while actually looking inferior (fewer particles, no rain physics, reduced frame buffer effects, etc.).

The fact of the matter is, there was never anything released on the DC that even began to HINT that it was capable of such things. When these games were released, the DC was quite a bit older than the PS2. I believe it is quite fair to compare those 2001 PS2 releases to any game on the Dreamcast. They represented many of the major improvements the PS2 offered over the DC while still somewhat suffering from the early limitations of the PS2 (lower resolution textures and mediocre to poor image quality). As we can see now, developers have been overcoming the issues with today's games. However, it isn't fair to compare something like Burnout 3 or Snake Eater to a Dreamcast game due to their late development cycles.

Tell me, can you locate a single Dreamcast game with the advanced lighting effects (for the time) of games such as ICO or Silent Hill 2? Or what about the complexity of Jak and Daxter's massive world? What m0dus seemed to be focusing so heavily on was very specific things, not the entire picture.

Still, even with a longer life-cycle, I do not believe the DC could have overcome its limitations. As is often the case for Sega, it was almost like a gap filler between generations (leaning more towards the current gen). It was incredible for its time, but the current runners stand quite a bit above it.
 

Ramirez

Member
PSO alone kills the entire PS2 lineup :D

That was a once in a lifetime experience...first time I'd ever gotten online with a group of friends and killed some monsters :p Plus the graphics/art were freakin awesome.
 
so you all know where I'm coming from, the day I picked up Ico and SH2 (release) I also bought Project justice and Heavy Metal Geomatrix for the DC, because i was still hungry for the Capcom love.

Dark remembers that day. We were in Japanese class and he heard me talking about it and was like "You like Silent Hill? I can be your friend."

I was like "Shut up, snob."

Zactly how it happened.
 
Okay, maybe this is a good place to ask:

Seems like there's some Arcadia haters here. Well I got the game on the assumption that since some of the folks behind Panzer Saga was behind it, Arcadia might perhaps be like that title.

Well I played it for like ten minutes and got seriously bored. So my question... does that ship vs ship battle system play like Saga? I saw a guy play that portion and it seem quite different. Or am I just wrong here?
 

cvxfreak

Member
The only Dreamcast exclusive left for me is Shenmue: Chapter I Yokosuka. CODE: Veronica, Sonic Adventure and Crazy Taxi have been ported to GameCube, and those were basically the games I played throughout its lifecycle. I still keep the system though, just for the memories.
 

Tsubaki

Member
FortNinety said:
Okay, maybe this is a good place to ask:

Seems like there's some Arcadia haters here. Well I got the game on the assumption that since some of the folks behind Panzer Saga was behind it, Arcadia might perhaps be like that title.

Well I played it for like ten minutes and got seriously bored. So my question... does that ship vs ship battle system play like Saga? I saw a guy play that portion and it seem quite different. Or am I just wrong here?

Some of Team Andromeda's members went to Overworks. The other members went to Smilebit.

As far as the ship battles are concerned, they are very different from PDS battles. PDS battles were actually fun. The combination of position vs timing made it strategic. Arcadia ship battles dragged out way too long, and were incredibly boring. They give you the layout of the enemy's actions and future actions, and you pretty much adjust your attacks/defense accordingly. While PDS battles allows for an element of risk, the fact that Arcadia shows you the enemy strategy eliminated all that. I had more fun with Arcadia's normal battles (which were really quite excellent when fighting a boss) than the ship battles.
 

binary

Member
creativity in games would be my main reason why dreamcast is/was better than ps2. ps2 had/has games i played on psx that look better. period.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
binary said:
creativity in games would be my main reason why dreamcast is/was better than ps2. ps2 had/has games i played on psx that look better. period.

I agree that DC had many creative games, but if you truly believe tha PS2 is lacking in that department...you haven't even tried to find any.
 

binary

Member
oh there are games that are creative on ps2, but it's no where near the level of dreamcast. i'll give props to the occassional creative game like ico, but if you look at the larger picture, the ps2 is nothing but sequels. tell me it isn't! oh and the creative games on dreamcast were actually good, unlike say mr. mosquito...haha. katamari damacy does look fun though. :)
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
binary said:
oh there are games that are creative on ps2, but it's no where near the level of dreamcast. i'll give props to the occassional creative game like ico, but if you look at the larger picture, the ps2 is nothing but sequels. tell me it isn't! oh and the creative games on dreamcast were actually good, unlike say mr. mosquito...haha. katamari damacy does look fun though. :)

You still aren't looking hard enough. ;)
 
dark10x said:
The fact of the matter is, there was never anything released on the DC that even began to HINT that it was capable of such things. When these games were released, the DC was quite a bit older than the PS2. I believe it is quite fair to compare those 2001 PS2 releases to any game on the Dreamcast. They represented many of the major improvements the PS2 offered over the DC while still somewhat suffering from the early limitations of the PS2 (lower resolution textures and mediocre to poor image quality). As we can see now, developers have been overcoming the issues with today's games. However, it isn't fair to compare something like Burnout 3 or Snake Eater to a Dreamcast game due to their late development cycles.

Tell me, can you locate a single Dreamcast game with the advanced lighting effects (for the time) of games such as ICO or Silent Hill 2? Or what about the complexity of Jak and Daxter's massive world? What m0dus seemed to be focusing so heavily on was very specific things, not the entire picture.

Frame Buffer work was seen somewhat sparingly in Crazy Taxi, Skies of Arcadia, and Maken X. Anything with a frame buffer can do glow and blur effects and it was seen on PS1 and N64 though in very special case scenarios.

Crazy Taxi 1 and 2 used streaming to load their massive worlds in as did Shen Mue 1 and 2 and Jet Grind Radio. The DC could probably have done a game like GTA 3 as the Crazy Taxi games pretty well use as many art assets, or more, to create their worlds.

ICO is an example of lighting effects that is just a combo of a frame buffer brightening pass, cel shading, and very clever stretches of the PS2 V-Ram through a 2nd map chanel baked on shadow map. The game isn't doing anything technically spectacular or very mysterious. Ico could have been done on DC easily. Actually the increase in resolution and texture space on the DC would have made it look better as ICO isn't 640x480.

Ports are always the worst examples for comparison. Metal Gear Solid could easily run on the Xbox if the game were properly coded for it. The PS2 ports of Ecco, Crazy Taxi, and Code Veronica, Dead or Alive 2 are no where near as good as the DC originals in terms of image quality or general solidity. That isn't to say the machine could never pull them off it is to say that ports are usually rushed and rarely exploit the machine to its utmost power.

Besides, specular vertex lighting, something that PS2 is very weak at was seen in many DC games including Zombie Revenge and Crazy Taxi. Stencil buffer shadows were used everywhere on DC and I rarely see similarly well done shadows on the PS2.

The DC also had the ability to do some interesting texture effects but I don't think any dev actually took advantage of it. The DC could do stuff like emboss mapping which was a poor man's bump mapping.

I'm not going to say that the DC is far better than the PS2 but the DC could do some things the PS2 had a hard time doing and vice versa. The PS2 does pump out far more polys than the DC, but the DC drew them better.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Frame Buffer work was seen somewhat sparingly in Crazy Taxi, Skies of Arcadia, and Maken X. Anything with a frame buffer can do glow and blur effects and it was seen on PS1 and N64 though in very special case scenarios.

I've seen those effects in all of those games, and they are VERY limited compared to what we've seen on PS2 and generally only deal with simple "motion blur" style effects. Please show me any DC game that displays depth of field properly.

Oh, and I know CT used frame buffer effects during the credits sequence and Maken X used it in a limited number of cutscenes. I can't recall any frame buffer work in Skies, though it has been a while. Regardless, the first two games run at 60 fps during gameplay...but while those effects are being used, the framerate is 30 fps.

Crazy Taxi 1 and 2 used streaming to load their massive worlds in as did Shen Mue 1 and 2 and Jet Grind Radio. The DC could probably have done a game like GTA 3 as the Crazy Taxi games pretty well use as many art assets, or more, to create their worlds.

CT1 and 2 did stream their cities, but those cities were very simplistic and did not draw very far into the distance. There is a LOT of pop-up in those games ya know. Shenmue 1 and 2 sure as hell didn't stream the world geometry (perhaps NPCs, though). There was an incredible amount of loading in those two games and each area was generally quite small. Jet Set Radio was also broken up into small chunks that would simply load as you passed through an obvious loading tunnel of sorts...and the city present wasn't exactly massive in scale. JSRF's engine is very similar to something like Jak 2 in terms of drawing a lot of geometry in very massive locations. JSR was not like those games.

ICO is an example of lighting effects that is just a combo of a frame buffer brightening pass, cel shading, and very clever stretches of the PS2 V-Ram through a 2nd map chanel baked on shadow map. The game isn't doing anything technically spectacular or very mysterious. Ico could have been done on DC easily. Actually the increase in resolution and texture space on the DC would have made it look better as ICO isn't 640x480.

I do not believe the DC could display the game at all...let alone easily. I have seen absolutely ZERO evidence that it could be done. There is NOTHING on the system that pulls off the type of lighting and amount of geometry. The game could be done on PS2 in a higher resolution as well, but at the time, the designers wanted to achieve a different look.

Really, that's what I want to know. The type of lighting found in ICO and many other PS2 titles is something that did not make its way into one single Dreamcast title. If it was SO EASY for the DC, why did every single developer fail to take advantage of it?

Ports are always the worst examples for comparison. Metal Gear Solid could easily run on the Xbox if the game were properly coded for it. The PS2 ports of Ecco, Crazy Taxi, and Code Veronica, Dead or Alive 2 are no where near as good as the DC originals in terms of image quality or general solidity. That isn't to say the machine could never pull them off it is to say that ports are usually rushed and rarely exploit the machine to its utmost power.

Ah, "no where near as good" you say? Someone hasn't played those ports.

Ecco on PS2 was ported by the original developers, so it is fair game. However, if you have tried the port, you would notice that it actually handles the game much better. First of all, texture resolution was NOT sacrificed at all...and the lack of mipmapping combined with the limited draw distance actually creates a sharper image. The most important improvement, however, is the framerate. Ecco DC has SERIOUS framerate issues while the PS2 version does not. It rarely drops from 30 fps, while the DC rarely stays at 30.

Crazy Taxi PS2 was handled by another studio and shouldn't be compared.

Code Veronica PS2 was proven to look EXACTLY the same as the GC version which in turn looks just like the DC version. The ONLY addition made was a strange motion blur filter. CV on PS2 is a full frame buffer game as well.

DOA2 was an early release and suffered from poor image quality, however, superior lighting effects actually made it look quite a bit better in many ways. Have you actually played this version? There were some serious enhancements made to the visuals while the only downgrade was screen resolution (which would not be a problem today).

Outside of CT, each of those ports add enhancements. The ONLY port listed that uses the half framebuffer is DOA2, but that was a very early release when the problem was quite common.

Ports are not a good judgement of machine ability, but in this case, the PS2 handled each of them very well. MGS2 on XBOX was downgraded from the original by a greater margin than these ports were.

Besides, specular vertex lighting, something that PS2 is very weak at was seen in many DC games including Zombie Revenge and Crazy Taxi. Stencil buffer shadows were used everywhere on DC and I rarely see similarly well done shadows on the PS2.

The DC did have very nice stencil shadows, I can't disagree. The PS2 has produced a number of games with incredible shadowing engines, however. Silent Hill 2 and 3, for example, still stand out today.

The PS2 does pump out far more polys than the DC, but the DC drew them better.

That isn't always true, though...
 
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