Support NeoGAF

[AceBandage]

Okay fine the "wow" was just a joke. Seeing as how others have already posted more detailed responses comparing the yoshi in sunshine versus galaxy I will just add this.

In Sunshine Yoshi slowed the game down do to him being very difficult to control, needing fruit juice or disappearing, and not being able to touch water.

In Galaxy using Yoshi is about rhythm and timing with the swinging sections and speed and maneuverability in the crazy running sections. Besides that he was easier to control and less prone to dying suddenly.

Summary: Yoshi in Galaxy is an extension of Mario.
Yoshi in Sunshine is a tank with half its tread missing and limited fuel.

 

[Nocturnowl]

Welp got my facts jumbled up. Oh well, the game was different from other Kirby titles even when he got shoehorned into the game later on.

Since you mentioned Kirby being used for a different direction lets not forget Kirby Canvas Curse/Power Paintbrush.
I thought it was quite possibly the best Kirby game of all, expanding upon the tech demo that was Yoshi: Touch and Go and delivering an enjoyable spin on the standard Kirby game. Plus it was one of the first DS games that made good use of the touch screen.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

How about both?
Have a Smash Mode and a SF mode.
or do like SFvTekken is and have two games developed by each company.

I haven't tried the simplified control scheme in MvC3 and I don't own SSFIV3DS so I don't know how well these things work if that's what you meant as your first option. Having two different games would be cool though and I'd certainly play both. Traditional fighter would be my preferred choice because I'm confident that it can work even though it hasn't been done before.

 

[DefectiveReject]

Mario would look weird bouncing off his own back

Give him extra double jump power ups combined with a fire flower type kill power. Would flow better personally. What would I know though

 

[AceBandage]

I haven't tried the simplified control scheme in MvC3 and I don't own SSFIV3DS so I don't know how well these things work if that's what you meant as your first option. Having two different games would be cool though and I'd certainly play both. Traditional fighter would be my preferred choice because I'm confident that it can work even though it hasn't been done before.

It wouldn't need simplified controls.
Just have two different modes in one game.
One that plays like Smash and one that plays like SF.

 

[nincompoop]

All right then, fine:



FLUDD was much more maneuverable and accurate for getting around ANY level than Yoshi was at any point. The fact that you could never touch water with Yoshi made him basically useless in almost every stage. His only unique move was his tongue and spray, the former was so wonky and horrible to use that it was easier to get off and kill whatever it was normally. The latter of which was really just a weaker version of Mario's water pack.

That's not true at all. With FLUDD you could either cover ground horizontally with the hover nozzle, or vertically with the rocket nozzle, but with Yoshi's spinning hover jump you could cover a ton of ground in any direction at once, much more than you could with FLUDD. If you didn't realize this then that proves my earlier claim that people who dislike him don't know how to use him properly. The ability to turn enemies into platforms was another thing that proved useful in a handful of situations and couldn't be replicated with FLUDD. His extra mobility was balanced nicely by the fact that he couldn't touch water and his hover was more difficult to control. Would you rather have the game hand you instant win powerups like the cape in SMW which require no skill to use properly? I can agree with some of the complaints, like he wasn't as fleshed out as he could have been and having to bring a specific type of fruit in order to use him, I'm just sick of people saying things about him that aren't even true and whining about his limitations when they actually represent good game design.

 

[rekameohs]

Give him extra double jump power ups combined with a fire flower type kill power. Would flow better personally. What would I know though

I still don't know why the implemented the fire flower the way they did. I think using the pointer to toss the fire would have been a lot better.

 

[abstract alien]

He could spawn off himself like Noob Saibot or some shit.

Regarding Capcom VS Nintendo, I'd love that to be a traditional 2D fighter rather than a Smash/Power Stone-like.

Honestly, I feel like the market has enough high level 2D fighters right now(with more in the pipe line) and would benefit from something of Smash's style that isn't the same set up as street fighter. I mean, it would be awesome to have both like the SF/Tekken situation, but Id choose the one we have the least of if I was given the choice personally.

He could spawn off himself like Noob Saibot or some shit.

Regarding Capcom VS Nintendo, I'd love that to be a traditional 2D fighter rather than a Smash/Power Stone-like.

You may be on to something with this idea. With all of the shadow marios, paint marios, liquid marios, etc...I'm sure they could come up with something. Hell, they game him a floating dinosaur and a water gun already.

 

[Christine]

The ability to turn enemies into platforms was another thing that proved useful in a handful of situations

There was never a place where enemy platforms were a superior method of locomotion outside of the couple of places where they were required to reach a shine. And they move at such an incredibly slow speed that using them is extremely tedious.

There's just not much Yoshi content in Sunshine, and the vast majority of it is spent feeding him fruit or enduring extremely long waits in between jumps.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Sunshine was fun as hell, and the controls blew away those of Mario 64. I'm glad Nintendo used the GCN era to take some risks and mix it up. Yes, Yoshi was pretty useless, but FLUDD was a joy to operate. In short, SMS was as much a true Mario game as Super Mario Bros 2 USA and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Take that as you will.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Back on topic, I posit that Star Fox would be the perfect title to launch Cafe. Like F-Zero, it's been on a hiatus over the last generation, but I figure Nintendo might want to give 3rd parties some breathing room in the racing genre. Don't want to eat into Ridge Racer's sales, right? haha. But yeah, there aren't too many other games these days like Star Fox. It is also a symbol of a time when Nintendo pushed graphical technology to its limits. It's remembered fondly by the hardcore (up to 64 at least, although I personally found Assault very satisfying), but the furries appeal to kids as well. The multiplayer could also show off the hopefully improved online functions of Cafe.

In summation: Launch with Star Fox. Strategically release Pikmin 3 and F-Zero Cafe in the following months in order to prevent the typical droughts after new console release.

 

[AniHawk]

fludd was a weak power up to have in a mario game.

a fourth of its usage was meant to stop you where you stood so you could clean shit off stuff. this is a platformer we're talking about. the hover nozzle didn't aid with mario's acrobatics- it just provided a fail safe. in the smg games, you could shake the controller and mario would get a little extra airtime, but in sms, you could just hover around until you got to where you needed to go safely. it was slower and required far less skill to operate. the rocket nozzle was even less impressive. it doesn't do much other than be there for show. great, now mario can jump really high from just one spot. then what happens? you get to the platform you want to go to. you might as well have required mario to do a normal jump if that's all the skill that was required.

the reason the fluddless levels were praised was because they were challenges that were made to test your skill without aid or spectacle. if you wanted to get to a super high platform, you couldn't press the win button and have it take you there: you'd have to do it yourself through actual platforming. if there were tricky platforms to navigate, hovering wasn't going to save you, because hovering didn't exist. it was all down to how well you controlled mario.

the reason the smg games succeed is thanks to nintendo putting gimmicks into the level design: ghosts eating floors; 'do a long jump'; twisting platforms with deadly things coming to crush you; floors that shrink away to nothing once you stand on them; and they all revolve around mario's innate abilities and not a gimmick, making the focus platforming above all else.

 

[BGBW]

Sunshine probably had the best hud. It was large enough to be a fun playground, but compact enough so that all levels were easy to get to. However I do like SMG2 super streamlined approach.

The fact that Yoshi dies in water in SMS was a horrible idea. Hated that stupid level that required you to travel by boat to a small island. Not fun at all, just plain tedious. Nothing to do with controlling him properly or what not, just the fact they made his weakness a substance that was 90% of the game. Nintendo must have attended the Signs School of Thinking when they came up with that logic.

I admit I did like jumping on top of Yoshi while shooting the FLUDD and watching the water magically transform into fruit juice.

 

[onQ123]

NSMB Wii was, like, 300mb.

Galaxy 2 was smaller than Galaxy 1!

I doubt they will take up 25GB for a new game.

640x480 vs 1920x1080

left & right channel audio output vs maybe 5.1 or 7.1 audio output

88MB of ram vs maybe 1GB of ram

with the wii they worked with what they had & with the new console they can work with what they have.


& I didn't say that it would take up 25GB I said imagine a new Mario game that use up most of a 25GB disc.

 

[From The Dust]

640x480 vs 1920x1080

left & right channel audio output vs maybe 5.1 or 7.1 audio output

88MB of ram vs maybe 1GB of ram

with the wii they worked with what they had & with the new console they can work with what they have.


& I didn't say that it would take up 25GB I said imagine a new Mario game that use up most of a 25GB disc.

jizz of gold printed on discs. believe it

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Ah, Kirby Epic Yarn is not an example of them experimenting with Kirby.

Kirby Epic Yarn started as another game entirely - a unique IP - and Nintendo thought "hey, this won't sell with an original character, let's add Kirby into it!"

Kirby as a character was an afterthought from everything I've read in the development. The experimentation came when it wasn't attached to any Nintendo character.

Isn't that how they've often said development goes? Come up with a game idea, then decide which character it's appropriate for?

 

[Weenerz]

Galaxy 2 was incredible with the crappy system specs it had, imagine Mario Galaxy 3 in HD @_@

 

[Christine]

the hover nozzle didn't aid with mario's acrobatics- it just provided a fail safe. in the smg games, you could shake the controller and mario would get a little extra airtime, but in sms, you could just hover around until you got to where you needed to go safely. it was slower and required far less skill to operate.

In general I agree. The hover nozzle did actually give you a small amount of vertical height, though, and you could turn 180 degrees at the apex of your jump... I really can't think of anywhere this really mattered except in fucking about in the girders over Ricco Harbor, but there were a few places would you could do some surprisingly impressive jumps that the level designers probably didn't really intend.

 

[Hatty]

Galaxy 2 was incredible with the crappy system specs it had, imagine Mario Galaxy 3 in HD @_@

I'm actually hoping the next mario wont be a galaxy.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I'm actually hoping the next mario wont be a galaxy.

I'm with you. I want old school Mushroom Kingdom in HD glory. Super Mario World style map (I hate how the NSMB games emulate the SMB3 map instead of World).

 

[AceBandage]

It likely won't be Galaxy 3, but it'll share similar mechanics.
Much like SM 3DS is.

 

[Krowley]

I'm actually hoping the next mario wont be a galaxy.

As cool as Galaxy is (haven't played the second, but the first is one of the best game in the history of the mario series), I would like to see something a little more like mario 64... either that, or maybe something totally different, like a free-roam mario game with platforming challenges scattered across a giant version of the mushroom kingdom. I've always wanted a game like that.

 

[Fourth Storm]

As cool as Galaxy is (haven't played the second, but the first is one of the best game in the history of the mario series), I would like to see something a little more like mario 64... either that, or maybe something totally different, like a free-roam mario game with platforming challenges scattered across a giant version of the mushroom kingdom. I've always wanted a game like that.

I always thought it would be amazing if all the areas were connected like the original Jak and Daxter.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Isn't that how they've often said development goes? Come up with a game idea, then decide which character it's appropriate for?

This is what happened with Kid Icarus Uprising, so probably. I'd bet it's more of a second-party game thing though. I'd be very surprised if Nintendo never decide to make a new Mario game and then design the concept afterwards, for example.

 

[Krowley]

I always thought it would be amazing if all the areas were connected like the original Jak and Daxter.

I haven't tried Jak and Daxter, but from what I've heard about it, that's kind of what I had in mind. Mario is just so much fun to control and go exploring with, and it would be really cool if you just turned him loose in a giant world with all sorts of things to do and find. Not just a level, but something much bigger.

 

[legacyzero]

It likely won't be Galaxy 3, but it'll share similar mechanics.
Much like SM 3DS is.

I'd be happy with something akin to SM64. The whole Galaxy thing wasn't as good to me for some reason... Mario with an open world....?

As cool as Galaxy is (haven't played the second, but the first is one of the best game in the history of the mario series), I would like to see something a little more like mario 64... either that, or maybe something totally different, like a free-roam mario game with platforming challenges scattered across a giant version of the mushroom kingdom. I've always wanted a game like that.

Edit: BEATEN HORRIBLY.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Back on topic, I posit that Star Fox would be the perfect title to launch Cafe. Like F-Zero, it's been on a hiatus over the last generation, but I figure Nintendo might want to give 3rd parties some breathing room in the racing genre. Don't want to eat into Ridge Racer's sales, right? haha. But yeah, there aren't too many other games these days like Star Fox. It is also a symbol of a time when Nintendo pushed graphical technology to its limits. It's remembered fondly by the hardcore (up to 64 at least, although I personally found Assault very satisfying), but the furries appeal to kids as well. The multiplayer could also show off the hopefully improved online functions of Cafe.

In summation: Launch with Star Fox. Strategically release Pikmin 3 and F-Zero Cafe in the following months in order to prevent the typical droughts after new console release.

Pretty good idea. F-Zero would also be awesome online if we could get 30 racers at once. Only problem I have with a new F-Zero is that I don't trust anyone but AV anymore with the franchise and they're too busy with Yakuza.

 

[Big One]

I doubt they'll do another Galaxy game; Galaxy 2 really felt like a send-off to the series in design. The whole purpose of Galaxy 2 was to create a game of stuff they wanted to do in the first Galaxy game but never got the chance. Another game by the same team, however? No doubt. They are already working on the finishing touches of Super Mario 3DS, so I have no doubt that their next project will be a Cafe game and unrelated to the Galaxy games.

 

[nincompoop]

I always thought it would be amazing if all the areas were connected like the original Jak and Daxter.

The levels in Jak 1 were just branches off of the main hub world, they weren't actually connected to each other at all. I think a more impressive feat would be creating a platformer with overworld/level design similar to the Metroid Prime series, where all of the game's areas were connected to each other in an intricate way. I don't think any 3D platformer has ever attempted something like this, at least not to my knowledge.

 

[Fourth Storm]

The levels in Jak 1 were just branches off of the main hub world, they weren't actually connected to each other at all. I think a more impressive feat would be creating a platformer with overworld/level design similar to the Metroid Prime series, where all of the game's areas were connected to each other in an intricate way. I don't think any 3D platformer has ever attempted something like this, at least not to my knowledge.

True, but it was still seamless and felt like one large world more than any other platformer. SMS also created the illusion of a coherent island by showing the other areas in the distance. Hubs do serve a purpose, however, as backtracking is something I don't really want to have to do in a Mario game (there would have to be lots of canons). But yeah, if they could pull off a truly seamless Super Mario World in 3D, I'd be in awe. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Mortrialus]

fludd was a weak power up to have in a mario game.

a fourth of its usage was meant to stop you where you stood so you could clean shit off stuff. this is a platformer we're talking about. the hover nozzle didn't aid with mario's acrobatics- it just provided a fail safe. in the smg games, you could shake the controller and mario would get a little extra airtime, but in sms, you could just hover around until you got to where you needed to go safely. it was slower and required far less skill to operate. the rocket nozzle was even less impressive. it doesn't do much other than be there for show. great, now mario can jump really high from just one spot. then what happens? you get to the platform you want to go to. you might as well have required mario to do a normal jump if that's all the skill that was required.

the reason the fluddless levels were praised was because they were challenges that were made to test your skill without aid or spectacle. if you wanted to get to a super high platform, you couldn't press the win button and have it take you there: you'd have to do it yourself through actual platforming. if there were tricky platforms to navigate, hovering wasn't going to save you, because hovering didn't exist. it was all down to how well you controlled mario.

the reason the smg games succeed is thanks to nintendo putting gimmicks into the level design: ghosts eating floors; 'do a long jump'; twisting platforms with deadly things coming to crush you; floors that shrink away to nothing once you stand on them; and they all revolve around mario's innate abilities and not a gimmick, making the focus platforming above all else.

This perfectly describes my thoughts on Sunshine.

 

[AceBandage]

Basically, Galaxy took Mario back to its 2D roots.
Which is really what Zelda needs, as well.
Skyward Sword needs to be more Zelda 1, and less OoT.

 

[Metallix]

Basically, Galaxy took Mario back to its 2D roots.
Which is really what Zelda needs, as well.
Skyward Sword needs to be more Zelda 1, and less OoT.

I agree with this sentiment. I'd definitely like a more open-world, do things your own way type of Zelda game.

 

[Azure J]

Basically, Galaxy took Mario back to its 2D roots.
Which is really what Zelda needs, as well.
Skyward Sword needs to be more Zelda 1, and less OoT.

This is such a good post. Honestly, I would love to see Nintendo unhinge themselves from the OoT mold and just go crazy using the basics and all the stuff we've been drip fed about the game suggests that we may just get such a game.

 

[AceBandage]

And you know the weirdest part? Mario and Zelda are polar opposites in their gameplay.
2D Zelda is an exploration adventure.
2D Mario is a linear platformer.

However:
3D Mario (Pre Galaxy) is a exploration adventure.
3D Zelda is a linear platformer/adventure.

It's just weird how that happened.

 

[jacksrb]

One of the best / worst things about the N6 will be the stream of re-releases from HD hits this generation.

Some I would like to see:
- BioShock
- Batman Arkham (Asylum or City)
- Burnout Paradise or NFS Hot Pursuit

Some I would not like to see:
- Final Fantasy 13.5
- Modern Warfare 2 - Super Dudebro Edition

 

[Kjellson]

When did this get the title Nintendo Stream?

 

[Fourth Storm]

fludd was a weak power up to have in a mario game.

a fourth of its usage was meant to stop you where you stood so you could clean shit off stuff. this is a platformer we're talking about. the hover nozzle didn't aid with mario's acrobatics- it just provided a fail safe. in the smg games, you could shake the controller and mario would get a little extra airtime, but in sms, you could just hover around until you got to where you needed to go safely. it was slower and required far less skill to operate. the rocket nozzle was even less impressive. it doesn't do much other than be there for show. great, now mario can jump really high from just one spot. then what happens? you get to the platform you want to go to. you might as well have required mario to do a normal jump if that's all the skill that was required.

the reason the fluddless levels were praised was because they were challenges that were made to test your skill without aid or spectacle. if you wanted to get to a super high platform, you couldn't press the win button and have it take you there: you'd have to do it yourself through actual platforming. if there were tricky platforms to navigate, hovering wasn't going to save you, because hovering didn't exist. it was all down to how well you controlled mario.

the reason the smg games succeed is thanks to nintendo putting gimmicks into the level design: ghosts eating floors; 'do a long jump'; twisting platforms with deadly things coming to crush you; floors that shrink away to nothing once you stand on them; and they all revolve around mario's innate abilities and not a gimmick, making the focus platforming above all else.

You make valid points, if perhaps over analyzing a bit. Sunshine was designed with FLUDD in mind. They didn't just throw the device on top of a typical Mario game. Some parts would have been overly difficult without the room for error which FLUDD allowed. Admittedly, my memory is a bit hazy (played it back in 02), but I remember climbing extremely high scaffolds. If you didn't have FLUDD and made one misstep, you would have started all the way at the bottom, which would have been extremely frustrating. The fun of cleaning shit did wear off after a while, but there were also some boss battles, such as the one at the hotel, which utilized the mechanics in a satisfying and hectic way.

Was the game perfect? No. But I still found it enjoyable and challenging. Of course, it's all relative and a matter of opinion. I respect yours.

 

[AceBandage]

When did this get the title Nintendo Stream?

I think IGN said that was one of the names being shopped around.

 

[jacksrb]

When did this get the title Nintendo Stream?

That is, reportedly, one of the name being vetted by Nintendo. See the IGN story linked in the OP.

Edit: too slow

 

[abstract alien]

When did this get the title Nintendo Stream?

IGN said they heard it was a working name as of now, from what the abilities of the system are. I believe that is where it came from anyway.

Edit: Story of my life.

 

[Akai]

One of the best / worst things about the N6 will be the stream of re-releases from HD hits this generation.

I would hope third parties would bundle games in easy-to-swallow packages (like Bioshock 1 and 2 together, etc), but they'll probably try to charge full-price for individual games and have a cry and blame Nintendo when they flop...

 

[Graphics Horse]

I would hope third parties would bundle games in easy-to-swallow packages (like Bioshock 1 and 2 together, etc), but they'll probably try to charge full-price for old games and have a cry and blame Nintendo when they flop...

I was thinking that, or release some of them budget price at launch. (Has that ever happened?)

 

[AceBandage]

Nah. Launch period is basically a free pass to shove out any shit they want.
Nintendo needs to put their own games on the system and work out deals for good new content from third parties.

 

[wsippel]

I would hope third parties would bundle games in easy-to-swallow packages (like Bioshock 1 and 2 together, etc), but they'll probably try to charge full-price for individual games and have a cry and blame Nintendo when they flop...

They should just port over Infinite and add the first two as bonus content. Disk space should be sufficient for all three games. Unless the Café version uses higher quality assets, of course.

 

[AniHawk]

You make valid points, if perhaps over analyzing a bit. Sunshine was designed with FLUDD in mind. They didn't just throw the device on top of a typical Mario game. Some parts would have been overly difficult without the room for error which FLUDD allowed. Admittedly, my memory is a bit hazy (played it back in 02), but I remember climbing extremely high scaffolds. If you didn't have FLUDD and made one misstep, you would have started all the way at the bottom, which would have been extremely frustrating. The fun of cleaning shit did wear off after a while, but there were also some boss battles, such as the one at the hotel, which utilized the mechanics in a satisfying and hectic way.

Was the game perfect? No. But I still found it enjoyable and challenging. Of course, it's all relative and a matter of opinion. I respect yours.

i also forgot to mention that designing the game around fludd made the pacing a lot slower than stuff found in the fluddless levels or galaxy. all you have to do is compare the final level of sms to smg (or hell, smg2), which should be the culmination of everything you've learned in a final challenge of all your skills.

 

[nckillthegrimace]

They should just port over Infinite and add the first two as bonus content. Disk space should be sufficient for all three games. Unless the Café version uses higher quality assets, of course.

Infinite is 2012, right? It might get a Cafe version alongside the release of the 360/PS3/PC versions.

 

[Fourth Storm]

i also forgot to mention that designing the game around fludd made the pacing a lot slower than stuff found in the fluddless levels or galaxy. all you have to do is compare the final level of sms to smg (or hell, smg2), which should be the culmination of everything you've learned in a final challenge of all your skills.

I'll grant you this. The last level of SMS sucked. Particularly, the raft portion was a pain in the ass and not much fun. The game being a bit slower paced/adventure focused I did not mind. It was a vacation theme, after all. I would often switch it on to collect a few shines and relax

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Basically, Galaxy took Mario back to its 2D roots.
Which is really what Zelda needs, as well.
Skyward Sword needs to be more Zelda 1, and less OoT.

Nah, Galaxy just brought linearity back to the series. It was the SMB3 to SMW (SM64), if that makes sense.

I really hope they either do away with the star collecting setup or make it so when you beat a level you can just keep going.

Actually, fuck it, I'll just leave it to EAD.

Also, relevent to Mario discussion

http://www.explodingrabbit.com/games/super-mario-bros-crossover

Only thing this game needs is a battletoad.

 

[watershed]

I wonder if the next 3d mario console game will bring a more coherent setting that is more theme based like Mario Sunshine or the world based marios like NSMBwii or SMW for example. Although the galaxy games do include the standard ice, desert, water, fire stages the level designs and the overal level aesthetics were really absurd, in a good way. It would be interesting to see Nintendo go back to a more uniform vision based on a theme and maybe even a narrative/setting.

Also I don't think Nintendo will be getting rid of the star system any time soon though I think it would be very interesting if there were a few stages where the finish/end of a level was jumping on the flag pole.