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[AniHawk]

Assuming the Super Wii is considerably more powerful than PS360, then I'd love to see them create an expansive world filled with memorable places. Doesn't have to be an RPG though.

how 'bout an action-adventure game. there are only like ten a generation. they could use scraps from that canceled zelda title they were making.

 

[Amir0x]

Do you like Demon's Souls or Super Meat Boy? It can be fun if it's well implemented.

Those are not trial and error.

In Super Meat Boy, I know precisely how to finish a level the second a stage loads. There's no secret where the traps are or the type of jumps I'll have to make. it's all a matter of execution: If my skill is a certain level, I could do it on my very first try.

The same applies for Demon's Souls. If I slowly make my way through the level with patience and perseverance, I simply won't die. It's not trial and error so much as careful consideration of your enemies actions. If you read messages, you'll even be able to avoid the few traps that come out of nowhere.


It's different for mine cart levels. Mine cart levels are full of disconnecting tracks which you have to jump at at very specific angles and you often won't know that angle because it changes depending on the movement of the track and the rate of its disconnection and your speed; or a stalagmite might fall from nowhere and you wouldn't know the first time out cause your mine is constantly moving and you didn't have time to prepare or a tunnel will suddenly collapse. It's a series of gauntlet-esque traps where the only possible way to complete a level is through multiple attempts at it until you memorize the exact layout of every little jump and trap.

That's piss poor level design as far as I'm concerned. You should always be able to pass a level the first try if your skill level is high enough and it should never be pure luck that you did it. Sure after two or three times through the mine I'll have memorized most of the critical junctures and I'll pass it, but it's infuriatingly poorly designedand makes me not want to play these levels.

 

[Darryl]

New IP or an RPG version of one of Nintendo's IPs, doesn't matter, just do it.

There's Fire Emblem, but that series has been terrible. I can't see them using anything they already have. If they did do it, it'd be something completely new.

They do have Monolith, though. I would imagine if they wanted to make an RPG, they would just have them do it.

 

[AniHawk]

fire emblem is fucking great. it can be valkyria chroniclized though.

 

[Amir0x]

fire emblem is fucking great. it can be valkyria chroniclized though.

how...so?

 

[george_us]

Those are not trial and error.

Demon's Souls is trial and error. The director admitted that they designed it that way in a previous interview.

 

[Fou-Lu]

RPGs don't need a well written story, they need an interesting world, there is a difference. A good battle system and shit loads of loot don't hurt either.

I have no idea what Nintendo will have Retro do next though, they went from FPS/Adventure to 2D Platformer, I don't see an RPG being out of the question.

 

[Amir0x]

He can admit whatever he likes since the game does not function that way in action.

I only ever died in Demon's Souls when I was not being patient. When i was rushing enemies and rushing areas and then I would fall into a trap because I wasn't being patient. There was not a single time I died for any reason other than that, except on ONE boss and that was Maneater.

 

[Fou-Lu]

I'd have to agree with Amirox, for me Demon's Souls was all about patience and caution, I didn't die much when I actually had the time and attitude to play.

 

[Caramello]

DKCR is a good game, but no way it should've taken that long to produce.
Major interference most of the time. Retro should just be left alone.

No more mine carts? What.com/what?

How long do you think it took to make?

"By the time of E3 only 4 levels were done for the game. After the huge praise the game received at E3, Retro became much more motivated to continue development, and were able to make the other 70 or so levels at a much faster speed than they did the first 4."

If they didn't have development transition issues I'm sure Retro could have made the whole game within 18 months quite easily.

 

[linko9]

Do you like Demon's Souls, Limbo or Super Meat Boy? It can be fun if it's well implemented.



Assuming the Super Wii is considerably more powerful than PS360, then I'd love to see them create an expansive world filled with memorable places. Doesn't have to be an RPG though.

I haven't played Limbo, but those other two games aren't really trial and error, they're just very difficult. The perfect example of trial and error is "I wanna be the Guy," which is complete shit, because you have no opportunity to anticipate the obstacles. In Meat Boy and Demon's Souls, you can see what coming up, and can plan your strategy accordingly. Sure, you won't get it right on the first (or the fifth, or maybe the 50th) try, but you learn from your mistakes in a much more constructive way than "Remember the hidden spike trap that you can't see coming at all". As for DKC, and the mine cart levels in general, I do remember these sorts of "cheap" problems with the original games, simply because some of the enemies or jumps would approach far too fast for you to react to. I haven't played DKCR yet, but I'd image in the widescreen aspect ratio might help things at least a bit.

EDIT: Jesus, this thread moves way too fast.

 

[Darryl]

RPGs don't need a well written story, they need an interesting world, there is a difference. A good battle system and shit loads of loot don't hurt either.

I disagree with this. Final Fantasy XII has some of the best gameplay I've ever seen, but the terrible story tears that game apart and makes you feel like you're wasting your time.

 

[Amir0x]

I'd have to agree with Amirox, for me Demon's Souls was all about patience and caution, I didn't die much when I actually had the time and attitude to play.

Even when you're making that first terrifying run until you beat the first boss, if you're careful and consider your steps and read the messages other players leave for you there is no chance you'll die. It's all about taking every enemy one by one if possible, slowly peaking about corners and making sure you consider the power of your enemies before approaching them.

People like to say Demon's Souls is trial-and-error because of that comment that guy who worked on the game made, but to me it's the ultimate example of a challenging game that absolutely relies on everything but trial-and-error to succeed.

It might be argued that one or two of the bosses require some of that, but even so that's hardly enough for me to be disappointed with the entire amazing package. It is the most perfectly honed difficulty curve this side of F-Zero GX.

 

[Log4Girlz]

sure it wasn't bad but come on F-Zero GX was definitely god tier to, say, Star War Pod Racer's B-tier.

I bought this game the other day because of the praise you lavished on it. Ok, well I've been meaning to buy it for years (I played just...insane amounts of F-Zero and F-Zero X). Now, I've literally just only started, I have the Wii running in the background. But from what I've played so far, god its f'ing gorgeous. I love the artstyle! Man come on, a sequel has to come out on Cafe, just to show off what it can do graphically!

 

[zoukka]

U just too casual for the glory of DKCR Amirox.

And Demons Souls is all about learning how to break the game. Fun for a while, but I didn't finish it.

 

[AniHawk]

how...so?

needs way more anime girls with magic powers and giant weapons.

i would just like a little extra stuff here and there. maybe valkyria chronicles was the wrong choice. ogre battle would be more along the right lines. except in fire emblem you could use your different classes outside of battle. send a thief out during a chapter, and they might return with valuable information that you can use to your advantage later in the game. it would be cool to be part of the overall strategy of the story in addition to the strategy of each battle.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

He can admit whatever he likes since the game does not function that way in action.

I only ever died in Demon's Souls when I was not being patient. When i was rushing enemies and rushing areas and then I would fall into a trap because I wasn't being patient. There was not a single time I died for any reason other than that, except on ONE boss and that was Maneater.

Nah, being careful only gets you a certain amount of the way. Even assuming you are perfectly sign posted in your run (which you won't be, especially if you're playing offline), there are plenty of bossfights that result in you dying because it's not clear what you're supposed to do to them, or enemies you have never encountered before that you don't know you're not equipped to face at the moment (the first time I ran into one of those blue guys on 1-1, or the first gold skeleton with dual katanas). The game's systems are often completely unexplained to you (I still don't know what a "Sword +1" means, exactly), and there are things like that certain NPC who starts assassinating other NPCs.

I think Demon's Souls is a pretty good example of well implemented Trial and Error gameplay, tbh. No shit it's not all trial and error, but it's in there too.

 

[Amir0x]

I bought this game the other day because of the praise you lavished on it. Ok, well I've been meaning to buy it for years (I played just...insane amounts of F-Zero and F-Zero X). Now, I've literally just only started, I have the Wii running in the background. But from what I've played so far, god its f'ing gorgeous. I love the artstyle! Man come on, a sequel has to come out on Cafe, just to show off what it can do graphically!

Oh yeah, to this day F-Zero GX is one of those rare last-gen games that almost entirely holds up graphically. It's a gorgeous, blisteringly fast game. 60fps always wins, doncha think?

Nah, being careful only gets you a certain amount of the way. Even assuming you are perfectly sign posted in your run (which you won't be, especially if you're playing offline), there are plenty of bossfights that result in you dying because it's not clear what you're supposed to do to them, or enemies you have never encountered before that you don't know you're not equipped to face at the moment (the first time I ran into one of those blue guys on 1-1, or the first gold skeleton with dual katanas). The game's systems are often completely unexplained to you (I still don't know what a "Sword +1" means, exactly), and there are things like that certain NPC who starts assassinating other NPCs.

I think Demon's Souls is a pretty good example of well implemented Trial and Error gameplay, tbh.

Well since I literally only ever died for my lack of patience, I think I am a perfect demonstrated example of how this is simply not true. There's no way you're going to be able to disprove my very own (and others, as you read above) experience with the game. You'd just be arguing for no reason

There is never a time I walked into something I had no way of avoiding the first time. The only boss I consider trial-and-error to any degree is Maneater, and not even because I didn't know what to do with them. He's just a bitch to beat period. I even beat most of the other bosses I encountered on my first go. it took a little patience and I always made sure I was heavily prepared going into every encounter. Because unlike games which are actually trial-and-error, this game lets you prepare for almost anything if you take your time.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Oh yeah, to this day F-Zero GX is one of those rare last-gen games that almost entirely holds up graphically. It's a gorgeous, blisteringly fast game. 60fps always wins, doncha think?

Buttery smooth 60fps. Just coat my body in this shit.

 

[Wallach]

There's definitely some trial-and-error stuff that goes on in SMB, but it's more error in the assumption that a human can't make the correct estimation of certain obstacles that are not hidden, rather than other stuff where the "error" part is more things you literally cannot avoid without prior knowledge of them being put in front of you.

 

[Amir0x]

needs way more anime girls with magic powers and giant weapons.

i would just like a little extra stuff here and there. maybe valkyria chronicles was the wrong choice. ogre battle would be more along the right lines. except in fire emblem you could use your different classes outside of battle. send a thief out during a chapter, and they might return with valuable information that you can use to your advantage later in the game. it would be cool to be part of the overall strategy of the story in addition to the strategy of each battle.

I thought you meant it should adapt its graphical pencil sketch style or something.

I think Fire Emblem could do with some creative experimentation, as long as they keep the amazing 2D attack animations!

 

[Celine]

Any issues people might have with Rare's DKC are completely irrelevant in the shadow of Retro's glorious DKCR. It's a shame some people here have such disgusting broken taste, but hey, c'est la vie.

.

 

[The Xtortionist]

If DKCR's mine cart stages are trial and error then I guess every quick time event ever is trial and error. Something happens, the game gives you a bit of time to respond with a simple command, and you live or die. All of those stages were totally doable (blind) if you have decent reflexes. I didn't find the jumps bad either, hell most of them had banana trails to guide you.

As for SMB's trial and error, they're not technically "levels" but CHAD and Little Horn are complete bullshit in that aspect. I don't care how skilled you are, they're just not going down on the first try.

I really need to start Demon's Souls sometime. Bought it a few weeks ago with Vanquish off Amazon but haven't had the time to get into it, as I'm assuming the game is very involving and demands a large chunk of time to learn. After easily blowing through so many shooters on the hardest difficulty in the past few years, I could use a humbling experience.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Galaxy 1 maybe, but I don't think Galaxy 2 is out of line with the rest of the series difficulty whatsoever. The other Mario games seem exactly as easy as Galaxy 2.

I personally think these games are more like gentle difficulty curve, not really difficult but with enough resistance to give you that cradling satisfaction from conquering the game anyhow. As long as you reach that point, the amazing gameplay and mechanics should do the rest. I definitely think Galaxy 1 and 2 were in that window, with Galaxy 2 obviously being the most perfectly executed.



No doubt man. F-Zero GX is a god tier title. Every other racing game cowers in its presence. Hell, most other games period run away at its insane quality.

It had a sick track count. An unbelievable number of vehicles all with legitimate ups and downs to using them, all of them being completely viable on all difficulties if you're good enough. It had a hilariously unique single player story mode. It had incredible polish and shine - the character bios and their associated character bio music was phenomenal. It has insane, tempo-racing music that remains among the best racing music in the industry, right there with Ridge Racer and Wipeout. It singularly has the greatest track design of any racing game. We're talking tracks so finely designed that if you play a track a hundred times you will likely still be finding ways to shave a hundredth of a second off your time with just a slight alteration to your rhythm, boost strategy or vehicle trajectory.

I cannot praise F-Zero GX enough. It is the ultimate refinement of the arcade racing game.

While I disagree with you on DKC, I agree with you on this.

I remember showing F-Zero GX to some guys at a party I went to around a year ago. Their minds were blown at the awesome.

 

[Celine]

how 'bout an action-adventure game. there are only like ten a generation. they could use scraps from that canceled zelda title they were making.

You mean Star Tropics 3 ? I like your idea Ani.

EDIT:
Ops mismatched "n" with a "m".

 

[Amir0x]

then I guess every quick time event ever is trial and error.

It is. That is why everybody fucking hates quick time events.

As for SMB's trial and error, they're not technically "levels" but CHAD and Little Horn are complete bullshit in that aspect. I don't care how skilled you are, they're just not going down on the first try.

I got Little Horn on my first try!

I really need to start Demon's Souls sometime. Bought it a few weeks ago with Vanquish off Amazon but haven't had the time to get into it, as I'm assuming the game is very involving and demands a large chunk of time to learn. After easily blowing through so many shooters on the hardest difficulty in the past few years, I could use a humbling experience.

Vanquish and Demon's Souls in the same paragraph is so much win that it's actually physically releasing seratonin into my body giving me an ecstasy-like buzz.

You mean Star Tropics 3 ? I like your idea Ami.

That is Anihawk. But I agree with Star Tropics idea.

 

[Always-honest]

Demon's Souls is trial and error. The director admitted that they designed it that way in a previous interview.

ofcourse it is.

But yes, extrreme patience will get you much further without dying.

 

[AniHawk]

I thought you meant it should adapt its graphical pencil sketch style or something.

well i think more games in general should experiment with 'toon/cel/whatever shading'. skyward sword and valkyria chronicles are good examples of different styles, and that level-5 ps3 game is a good example of following the concept art to a t.

actually, i want most games to resemble their concept art as much as possible.

 

[Electivirus]

It is. That is why everybody fucking hates quick time events.

I don't mind them. God of War and Resident Evil 4 did them pretty well, IMO.

 

[The Xtortionist]

It is. That is why everybody fucking hates quick time events.

Interesting. I've never had a problem with reflex tests in games, I just see them as an alternative to precision tests. I always thought the hate for QTE's came from the total removal of player control for "cinematic" effect.

I got Little Horn on my first try!

Yeah, maybe if your PC sucks so hard that the game runs at a lower speed : p

 

[Amir0x]

Interesting. I've never had a problem with reflex tests in games, I just see them as an alternative to precision tests. I always thought the dislike for QTE's was the removal of player control for "cinematic" effect, which most long-time gamers are generally against.

Most QTE events are pretty forgiving with big windows of opportunity, but even the most flexible QTE event is lame and unfun. It takes whatever gameplay mechanics your title has and throws it out the window for some short cinematic where you occasionally tap a button. Only you'll never know when the button tap will be required and so you're frequently thrown off if you're not prepared. Sometimes you won't even know a QTE is coming since a cutscene will happen and then randomly button prompts will come up. Sometimes I find myself scrambling for a controller like 'wth.' I frequently put my controllers down during cinematics

But yeah, QTEs are a biiiig issue people on neoGAF have as far as I've ever seen. They're just annoying, poor game design.

So yeah basically it's a little from column A, a little from column B.

Yeah, maybe if your PC sucks so hard that the game runs at a lower speed : p

Hey, I beat it on 360 first!

Buttery smooth 60fps. Just coat my body in this shit.

Um, ok.

*runs to grab the margarine*

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Buttery smooth 60fps. Just coat my body in this shit.

GX :bow

 

[Wolves Evolve]

It is. That is why everybody fucking hates quick time events.

Because they are insulting and destroy all games they are in. This is why God of War can't ever be more than a ghost train for children.

 

[Amir0x]

GX :bow

So true.

Anyway long story short we all love games. G'night all it is 6:43 in the morning and I still have not slept soooo

 

[AniHawk]

remember that one time those guys made an action game where you mostly use qtes to gruesomely kill things and i was forced to take a copy and i played it out of morbid curiosity and everyone liked it for some reason even though it was actually extremely boring?

 

[Amir0x]

remember that one time those guys made an action game where you mostly use qtes to gruesomely kill things and i was forced to take a copy and i played it out of morbid curiosity and everyone liked it for some reason even though it was actually extremely boring?

It remains God of War's biggest flaw.

Ok seriously good night now lol

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Well since I literally only ever died for my lack of patience, I think I am a perfect demonstrated example of how this is simply not true. There's no way you're going to be able to disprove my very own (and others, as you read above) experience with the game. You'd just be arguing for no reason

There is never a time I walked into something I had no way of avoiding the first time. The only boss I consider trial-and-error to any degree is Maneater, and not even because I didn't know what to do with them. He's just a bitch to beat period. I even beat most of the other bosses I encountered on my first go. it took a little patience and I always made sure I was heavily prepared going into every encounter. Because unlike games which are actually trial-and-error, this game lets you prepare for almost anything if you take your time.

Look Amri0x, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying that you're clearly crazy, and you probably do genuinely believe what you're saying. If you want to claim that the only time you died in Demon's Souls (Really? Even at the start before you knew how you had to play the game properly through trial and bloody error?) was when you were careless, then what can I say? Maybe you did, by a combination of extreme preparation, grinding and good fortune, make all of the right decisions, divined the meaning of the crafting system with your coffee rather than random experimentation, had your spider sense tell you not to help out Yurt lest he start slaying NPCs while you're away killing Demons, never fell off the side of a cliff even while you were carefully inching forwards because the level had less ambient light sources than Doom 3, never got killed by a bullshit enemy you'd never seen before (fucking gold skeletons) and never made a bad choice of world to go to that you were hopelessly out-leveled by the enemies in.

But surely you can recognize that this game absolutely does offer a certain level of trial and error gameplay, at least for those of us without your mad skills and pure dedication. It's not enough to say "well technically you could have gotten through XYZ fight the first time you did it if only you did ___", because you could make similar cases about just about any game out there that you would yourself identify as a "Bullshit Trial and Error" game.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Interesting. I've never had a problem with reflex tests in games, I just see them as an alternative to precision tests. I always thought the hate for QTE's came from the total removal of player control for "cinematic" effect.

I think QTEs get more hate because they require some arbitrary mindset. Opposed to reaction driven gameplay where you are presented with split second decisions like: Avoid bullet, press jump; QTEs mostly involve no such reaction but only require you to remember where the buttons on your Gamepad are.

I have yet to encounter a QTE that actually engaged me more into the game instead of throwing me out of the experience. One of the worst gimmicks in gaming.

 

[The Xtortionist]

IMO QTEs actually work in God of War because the animations are so fucking brutal and over the top (and generally optional in the first place). The worst thing a developer can do is create QTEs for an uninteresting effect, like mashing A to...progress through the level in Sonic Colors.

Now I love me some Colors, but that whole idea was dumb. Maybe they needed to buy some time to stream data or something? Who knows.

 

[AniHawk]

IMO QTEs actually work in God of War because the animations are so fucking brutal and over the top (and generally optional in the first place).

you know what's way better than that? actually being in total control and choosing your own method to take something down.

thank you, hideki kamiya.

 

[Varjet]

thank you, hideki kamiya.

*mashes X furiously*

 

[VisanidethDM]

you know what's way better than that? actually being in total control and choosing your own method to take something down.

thank you, hideki kamiya.

Kamiya does QTE aplenty, but still, your point would be valid if it was possible to portray the same kind of action you do with a QTE in terms of actual gameplay, which is false.

I still think we need more cutscenes and less QTE.

 

[EatChildren]

remember that one time those guys made an action game where you mostly use qtes to gruesomely kill things and i was forced to take a copy and i played it out of morbid curiosity and everyone liked it for some reason even though it was actually extremely boring?

See now we can agree on something.

 

[Sadist]

Did feel the minecart levels in DKCR were a bit wonky due to jumping. While timing jumps, I had to give the button just a little push. Thing is, I didn't do that Gave DK a lot of cranium punctures because of the sensitivity of the jump button.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I think QTEs get more hate because they require some arbitrary mindset. Opposed to reaction driven gameplay where you are presented with split second decisions like: Avoid bullet, press jump; QTEs mostly involve no such reaction but only require you to remember where the buttons on your Gamepad are.

I have yet to encounter a QTE that actually engaged me more into the game instead of throwing me out of the experience. One of the worst gimmicks in gaming.

Yeah, whether it's a QTE or an incoming missile in Vanquish or a falling stalagmite in DKCR, telegraphing is key. I am adamant about those DKCR minecart levels btw, IMHO there's plenty of time to react. Just don't get jittery.

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

Couldn't decide on in which thread to post my inaugural post, but settled on this one!

I didn't think the Wii successor would be revealed so soon, but as soon as I saw the leaks get confirmed on GAF I knew I had to finally register here!

I guess Nintendo feels it's in a spot of bother to be making a move this early (not that it goes against history or anything). I always thought Nintendo knew what it was doing pretty much every step of the way this generation and up until recently it seemed to be so well executed, but one can't argue with Iwata once he's admitted mistakes!

 

[AniHawk]

See now we can agree on something.

i actually dislike it about as much as metroid prime, but it's something i didn't spend money on, and i knew better than to purchase the sequels. it's also something that couldn't have screwed up an existing franchise.

 

[fabricated backlash]

IMO QTEs actually work in God of War because the animations are so fucking brutal and over the top (and generally optional in the first place). The worst thing a developer can do is create QTEs for an uninteresting effect, like mashing A to...progress through the level in Sonic Colors.

Now I love me some Colors, but that whole idea was dumb. Maybe they needed to buy some time to stream data or something? Who knows.

Even in God of War I allways felt the QTEs were pointless. They were brutal but in the end just a glorified cutscene with awkward animations (especially when you need to press a button repeatedly) At least God of War made those scenes entertaining, so I simply overlook it.

To me QTEs are a cheap cop out for developers to create cinematic cutscenes but at the same time fake interactivity. I guess not many will share this view, but to me slaying Lagiacrus in MH3, or taking down a tank while simultaneously having to worry about snipers in Battlefield is a lot more epic.

QTEs tend to tell me that the game is never able to let me actually perform these actions during gameplay, which sucks. (kinda like watching the fight sequences in MGS and especially in Twin Snakes, just to then get back to the terrible melee animations in game)

 

[BGBW]

All this talk of Super Mario Sunshine makes me feel like giving it another whirl. Maybe this time I'll bother with the Blue Coins even if I have to use a guide to keep tabs on them. I did enjoy it but I do detest the boats. So of course Nintendo uses one for the approach to the final boss. Lovely(!)

I found the minecart and rocket levels a mixed bag in DKCR. Some I feel worked well and obstacles were in clear sight before you reached them. Others did have too much trial and error. Oh and Retro was ever so naughty putting the DK barrel before the rocket section leading up to the final boss. Wow, what is up with these final boss approaches?

 

[AniHawk]

Kamiya does QTE aplenty, but still, your point would be valid if it was possible to portray the same kind of action you do with a QTE in terms of actual gameplay, which is false.

you get quite a lot of brutality from bayonetta just using the extremely wide variety of combos you have at your disposal, not to mention weapons from fallen enemies you can use.