[Windows Central] 'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat

Topher

Identifies as young
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.

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"You think you want it, but you don't."

This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.

Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.

It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.

World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.

For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.

Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.

Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.

It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.

A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.

Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.

Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.

Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat

Expedition 33


Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.

Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.

"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."

Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?

In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.

"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"

A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.



Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?

It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.




Jez making some valid points?

Oh My God Wow GIF by The Roku Channel
 
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We've seen multiple turn based games run circles around square Enix. Square is just run by actual idiots, and we can see by them constantly flop-flopping every other week "this game met our expectations, oh wait now it didn't, oh wait now it did."
 
The mainline Final Fantasy series hasn't been truly turn-based in almost 20 years. I believe that people hate Final Fantasy XVI because it's a numbered title and it's different. If you want a turn-based traditional JRPG from Square Enix, they have multiple modern series that do just that.

If Final Fantasy XVI was called "Final Fantasy: Ifrit's Rage" instead, would that stop all of the constant bashing?
 
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Agreed. Ff7 remake and rebirth are so overrated its pathetic. Terrible games with whiny anime shit thats annoying as hell. Nobody said turn based was dead, but ff wants to bury it. Claire obscure is the new standard for turn based, lets see where it goes from here
 
It's a great game but TBH it's not something Square Enix would be satisfied with because they are chasing a 10 million seller like past Final Fantasy's.

Persona 5 hasn't sold that yet and it's the most successful modern turn based game.
 
Im sorry, but if you moderatly like jrpgs, you would know theres been a ton of them before and after clowning both same gamer now and naokis statements
 
PLEASE SQUARE ENIX. Please make FF17 a traditional turnbase JRPG. Then finally I can close this painful 25 year chapter in my life.

Only you can make me whole again. I need this. Please.
 
Has there been a turn based game released in the pass decade, not named Pokémon, that has hit the sales square is looking for? Hell, last 2 decades.
 
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lets remember this, SE has more than 4K employees the scope alone in how much the game must make to break even in abysmal, COE33 is a amazing game and at the moment GOTY but 1 Million sales does nothing for SE while for Sandfall is a great success.

what SE must do is stop this bloated mess and do more passion projects like COE33, said that, even Octopath that is a "passion project" didn't sell that well despite being turn based, both games estimated to be sold 4mi and thats a low number for SE.
 
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PLEASE SQUARE ENIX. Please make FF17 a traditional turnbase JRPG. Then finally I can close this painful 25 year chapter in my life.

Only you can make me whole again. I need this. Please.
Unfortunately, I think it's more likely for FF17 to be the next MMO and for FF18 to be a Genshin Impact/BOTW style open world multiple-character action-RPG. They really don't like to innovate anymore.

It's a great game but TBH it's not something Square Enix would be satisfied with because they are chasing a 10 million seller like past Final Fantasy's.

Persona 5 hasn't sold that yet and it's the most successful modern turn based game.

Square Enix wants to be on top. After FF7 was a massive success, they keep thinking it's still 1997 and they can get away with having nearly every FF game be a massive, generation-defining seller exclusive to PS.

If FF16's sales are any indication, that's not reality.
 
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Over It Smile GIF


So were going to pretend that the price has nothing to do with it's success? I'm sure if Rebirth could be had for $36 at launch, it would be selling like hot cakes and people would be bloviating about it too.

Expedition 33 is an amazing game, but it sure is bringing out the peanut gallery.
 
Let's not downplay how amazing this game is and the impact it is currently having just because gamepass subscribers can play it in the sub. Its not fair to say the only reason Jez is talking about it is because its on gamepass. The game has sold 1 mill copies already. That's nothing to do with gamepass. Its just a great game made by a small studio with passion.
 
I'm glad a game such as this has shown up and taken the gaming community by storm. This is why new school AA/indie is emerging as a threat to the AAA mindset. Its a slap in the face to many large AAA corporate developers/publishers and their current creative managerial and operation policies. Throwing a shit ton of people onto a project to overcompensate for hollow/lack of passion does not equate to betterment of a game's chance for success and/or widespread positive response.

CEOs and BI suits around the industry should take that lesson and learn from it.
 
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I remember when games could be good and it wouldn't have to be a "gotcha" to someone else. Your points are valid OP, i just dont know why every single game that comes out which is "under the radar" per se needs to have some kind of conflict with some other title.
 
stop protecting or glorifying FF7 remakes, because that's crap too. (I'd say worse than 15 and 16). That's clearly not what I expect from FF.

If FF7 Remake had the same Game Design, Level Design and narration / staging as Clair Obscure (and not anime bullshit or grunts), it would already be a much more successful remake
 
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stop protecting or glorifying FF7 remakes, because that's crap too. (I'd say worse than 15 and 16). That's clearly not what I expect from FF.

If FF7 Remake had the same Game Design, Level Design and narration / staging as Clair Obscure (and not anime bullshit or grunts), it would already be a much more successful remake
I like the combat in 7 remake and I'd like to see some evolution of that in a mainline game.

But yeah I hate everything else about 7, what a pile of shit.
 
Over It Smile GIF


So were going to pretend that the price has nothing to do with it's success? I'm sure if Rebirth could be had for $36 at launch, it would be selling like hot cakes and people would be bloviating about it too.

Expedition 33 is an amazing game, but it sure is bringing out the peanut gallery.

It's a new IP from a studio no one has heard of before compared to Square Enix... This game didn't have the budget of a Final Fantasy game. Certainly not with a proper publisher...

Square Enix has ignored their core audience and only for games like Final Fantasy. They wouldn't do this to Dragon Quest.
 
I mean sure.
But turn based isn't going to do anything for Square or FF if the games still suck.

You can put a turn based combat system in FF16, but it wouldn't magically become a good game.
 
Square-Enix still knows turned based combat, they have so many games still with it, but they are the lower tier budget ones :

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The problem is every goddamn fucking FF director and management won't touch turned based with a ten foot pole for Final Fantasy franchise, thinking they can chase the CoD crowd on consoles and not being satisfied with 10M units sold.

They always find excuses, "the polls want action games", "the HD towns are hard to make", etc.

And you have this French studio coming in with 30 peoples and a small budget schooling everyone, not just Square enix, everyone.

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We can talk about them also schooling other RPG makers with the facial expressions in this game, the animations during dialogues which are beautiful, while you have Starfield and the likes with the most fucking derp dialogue and facial animations.

FF has lost its roots. So many iterations and years of trying to chase the mainstream crowd that the new generation has no fucking clue what turned based even means anymore, or they are rediscovering it with games like Clair Obscur.

Same for Baldur's Gate 3. Shall we dig into the early BG3 threads where they announced the game would be turned based and how negative the reactions were? I don't understand these peoples. Peoples who bitched on turned based all these years for god knows why, ruined perfectly fine franchises because corporations chase these peoples' pockets.

So FF has a big problem. The teams over there are inefficient. The directors screw up and often get replaced. They chase cinematic action which probably costs a fortune to develop compared to turn based. Their budget is so astronomical that they're never satisfied with sales.

I wouldn't mind either Monolith Soft to go back turned based jRPG too by the way, as much as I love Xenoblade franchises, I wish it would drop the mmo type combat and go more like Xenosaga/Xenogears
 
You liked Turn based final fantasy because it had a great identity and soul that modern FFs lack. Even if the battle system were turn based it would still miss the charm of FF9 or the grand epic tale of FF7 or FFX's wow factor. Assuming it's a good attempt at turn based and not some trash either
 
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At the end of the day, you have to look at sales. Persona 5 is the most successful one lately, and it hasnt reached FF numbers. Though now FF numbers are reaching the floor. Lets see final sales numbers. RPGs are highly front loaded.
 
Square Enix has ignored their core audience and only for games like Final Fantasy. They wouldn't do this to Dragon Quest.
I agree. I think Final Fantasy needs to settle on a battle system focus on world design and story for now. They need to regain mindshare and grow a fanbase, and 16 was just too different for a numbered FF game for most people.
 
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You liked Turn based final fantasy because it had a great identity and soul that modern FFs lack. Even if the battle system were turn based it would still miss the charm of FF9 or the grand epic tale of FF7 or FFX's wow factor. Assuming it's a good attempt at turn based and not some trash either

Turn based games have their own identity to them. The depth of a battle system says a lot about a game rather than being a generic action game.

controlling 3-4 characters, balancing them out, having a strategy around defeating stronger opponents.. job systems, barrier systems, magic strengths and weaknesses...

All rewarding in a very different way than action games, which I'm not saying don't have their own merit, but we didn't need another generic action game, we needed the flagship RPG experience which had been final fantasy for decades...

Square's action RPGs don't even go as far as games like the witcher, they're way more action heavy. I'd even say that games like Symphony of the night are better action RPGs.
 
F off. Has Windows Central got exclusive copyrights for the worst takes? Why is SE being targeted because of Ex 33's success?

FF16 sold 3 million copies in 3 days. Ex 33 sold 1 million copies in 3 days. Both are amazing games and found success. It's like saying every game should have Souls-like combat system because Elden Ring sold 25 million copies, and there is no place for hack-and-slash games.

Let developers make different games, experiment, shake up things, and make whatever they want to make.
 
Turn based games have their own identity to them. The depth of a battle system says a lot about a game rather than being a generic action game.

controlling 3-4 characters, balancing them out, having a strategy around defeating stronger opponents.. job systems, barrier systems, magic strengths and weaknesses...

All rewarding in a very different way than action games, which I'm not saying don't have their own merit, but we didn't need another generic action game, we needed the flagship RPG experience which had been final fantasy for decades...

Square's action RPGs don't even go as far as games like the witcher, they're way more action heavy. I'd even say that games like Symphony of the night are better action RPGs.
A generic action game with a turn based battle system is still a generic action game- it's just missing the one selling point that makes it fun.

Tell me, would a turn based battle system fix FFXVI's quest design? Would it make the art direction comparable to Elden Ring's? Would it give it an iconic and amazing soundtrack?

The FF7 Remakes succeed despite being more real time because the identity of FF7 still lies beneath. Dark Souls succeeded despite the real time battle system because of its identity (and also the combat being very good)
What identity, what soul does FFXVI have? There would need to be a hell of a lot more work done on that game OUTSIDE of the battle system to make it stand up to FFs of old.
 
It's a new IP from a studio no one has heard of before compared to Square Enix... This game didn't have the budget of a Final Fantasy game. Certainly not with a proper publisher...

Square Enix has ignored their core audience and only for games like Final Fantasy. They wouldn't do this to Dragon Quest.
Who even is the "core audience" for Final Fantasy?

Are you talking about nostalgic gamers who played Final Fantasy X 25 years ago?

FFXV was a big hit selling over 10 million copies. Maybe that's their audience?

Or maybe it's MMO gamers?
 
A generic action game with a turn based battle system is still a generic action game- it's just missing the one selling point that makes it fun.

Tell me, would a turn based battle system fix FFXVI's quest design? Would it make the art direction comparable to Elden Ring's? Would it give it an iconic and amazing soundtrack?

The FF7 Remakes succeed despite being more real time because the identity of FF7 still lies beneath. Dark Souls succeeded despite the real time battle system because of its identity (and also the combat being very good)
What identity, what soul does FFXVI have? There would need to be a hell of a lot more work done on that game OUTSIDE of the battle system to make it stand up to FFs of old.

You care way more about a team of characters in an RPG when you're actively controlling all of them through out the game.

The time you spend upgrading each character matters.

When you boil that down to 1 character with traits that don't matter, yeah that doesn't have much of an identity...

FF7 remake and rebirth aren't nearly as interesting as the original game.
 
You care way more about a team of characters in an RPG when you're actively controlling all of them through out the game.

The time you spend upgrading each character matters.

When you boil that down to 1 character with traits that don't matter, yeah that doesn't have much of an identity...

FF7 remake and rebirth aren't nearly as interesting as the original game.
I think you need to understand I am saying that the modern FF studio making another turn based game wouldn't automatically make it good.
 
Some valid points but why such aggressive tone?


Because 20 fking years, man...

FF10 and FF12 are the last major FF games with critical success (even if FF12 has some divided fans).

these games are 20 years old but still have a big aura, it's like Square didn't understand what made FF a succes in gold era (6, 7, 8, 9, 10). When you love old FF and you play E33, you're just mad at Square.

edit : damn, fked by auto translate
 
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Has there been a turn based game released in the pass decade, not named Pokémon, that has hit the sales square is looking for? Hell, last 2 decades.

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Hmm I wonder can anyone else think of a massively successful turn based RPG that won multiple GoTY awards not called pokemon recently?

No no, I just can't seem to put a finger on it hmmmmmmm...
 
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I'm not saying it would automatically make it good, but it's an important place to start from.
they'd probably bungle the starting point as well.

I can't believe that the main point people are taking from Expedition 33's (and Baldur's Gate 3) success is "Final Fantasy should go back to turn based" and not "There are other studios capable of making turn-based RPGs way better than even the best FFs of old so why give a fuck what Square does anymore?"
 
Because 20 fking years, man...

FF10 and FF12 are the last major FF games with critical success (even if FF12 has some divided fans).

these games are 20 years old but still have a big aura, it's like Square didn't understand what made FF a succes in gold era (6, 7, 8, 9, 10). When you love old FF and you play E33, you're just mad at Square.

edit : damn, fked by auto translate
I get it, but there are other games with turn based combat, it does not need to be Final Fantasy.
This is the first in that many years that is getting noticed, so maybe all it needed was a new look from a fresh new team?

edit: I saw the post before your edit and thought my browser was broken lol
 
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Also,

The wave of negative comments on FF turned based in the early 2000's I think was mostly a critique of random battles. Yea fuck those for sure.
 
Because his still mad ff16 and ff 7 remake hasn't made it's way to xbox.

Ff7 remake is making it's way to switch 2 before xbox which probably ruffled his feathers.
Yeah, that's probably it.

There is no point in using one game's success and targeting a completely different company that has nothing to do with that game. However, if any company could be criticized in all this, it could have been Ubisoft, because Sandfall Interactive is made up of mostly ex-Ubisoft employees.

The angle could have been that Ubisoft could not recognize this talent and let it go, while those folks got together and released such an awesome game.

Including SE in this conversation is extremely absurd and, frankly, childish behavior.
 
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