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[Windows Central] Xbox's biggest crisis right now isn't games. It's hardware.

Monkfish877

Member
Oh my...

"Overpriced games" - Compared to?
"Overpriced peripherals" - Again, compared to?
"Over emphasis on GAAS" - Um, how?
"Nickle and diming" - In what way?

The PS2 is still regarded by many as Sony's finest hour and it was their most dominant. Stay on point - Xbox's issues. They have to solve them before even looking at Sony, who's clearly doing something right as the consumers have spoken.
£70 and 80 euro games here in europe is a complete disgrace, It's completely indefensible. Sony were the first ones to set these prices. Have you seen the price of dualsense edge? it's £200! outrageous and what about psvr2, over £500. It costs more than a ps5. Are you forgetting sony blocked ps plus, ps now stacking and stopped customers from maximising their value. That's the definition of nickle and diming.
 

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
It's also starting to occur to me that Gamepass is actuality a pretty bad value proposition over time - unless you buy zero games.

Actual, full-tier Gamepass is about to be $17/mo, or $204 per year. That's about three full-priced games. Almost no one needs all of a publisher's titles, so even in MS did release three-four big drops per year, I'd have to really want that back catalog to stay in Gamepass.

The problem with THAT is those older titles are all cheap as hell. I'm planning on dropping Gamepass when my deal expires in January, so I just picked up Age of Empires II, Halo MCC, and Skyrim (which along with the F2P Halo Infinite comprise about 99% of my Xbox play time) for a total of....$35.

I'm good.
I have been saying this for a long time. Gears 5 is the only game I can think of that Gamepass has prevented me from buying outright. Any game that ended up on there that I liked I had already bought.

The only reason I have Gamepass is because I did the conversion and am locked up until 2025.

Unless, we see an unheard of turnaround and somehow MS is able to get their first party machine rolling to the tune of about 2-3 big exclusives a year, there is no way in hell I will pay $14.99 a month and stay locked into that.

I am also puzzled how nobody talks about the fact that most subscription services are actually LOSING subscribers. That should cause MS to worry. TO be fair MS can offer something places like Netflix/Disney+ doesn't: games.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
£70 and 80 euro games here in europe is a complete disgrace, It's completely indefensible. Sony were the first ones to set these prices. Have you seen the price of dualsense edge? it's £200! outrageous and what about psvr2, over £500. It costs more than a ps5. Are you forgetting sony blocked ps plus, ps now stacking and stopped customers from maximising their value. That's the definition of nickle and diming.
Somebody should sue!
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
This will be all over when the PS5 pro happens!
Believe it
I think now that they know the PS5 Pro is coming it has a lot of team green shook.

black comedy GIF by ABC Indigenous
 
No shot they do something like this mid-gen. It would be way too disruptive. They could do it next gen. with the promise that cross-gen titles will only run on XSX and XSX 2.

Agreed. They could technically discontinue the XSS without disrupting anything if they wanted, but they would need to continue supporting it throughout the generation regardless (maintaining that it is mandatory for any game that appears on XSX). Dropping software support burns the people that bought it too much, they would have basically pulled a Sega at that point. I doubt they'd even consider it, wouldn't be much upside.

The $50 upsell on the 1TB model is a strange thing, if anything they'll want to slide the original XSS hardware down to $250 to give it a little more room to breath when the $400 PS5 becomes the dominant/only model available. Though if they refresh the innards there or flip the S to the XSX hardware or a modern approximation or it (replacing the XSX with something more powerful), they might be able to keep that $350 price tag. That might be what they are prepping the market for (moving to a $350/$600 price points or something like that down the road).

The success of the dual console strategy can't really be judged in pure hardware sales and certainly not by what gamers on enthusiast boards think of it. MS I'm sure is monitoring the XSS in terms of user engagement, are users using it, how much are they using it, how does the per user spending and hours played compare to XSX and so on.

If the numbers are good there, they'd keep the strategy going forward. If the XSS isn't as healthy as they like in the user engagement area, they'll shift gracefully back to a single console model when they refresh the hardware.
 
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MacReady13

Member
Wrong, its software. It always comes back to software.
Yes but if you don't give a fuck about your hardware, who would want to release software on it?

I hate to sound like a broken record but Microsoft are in this position cause they have spread themselves far too thin. Focus on consoles only, not cloud gaming/sub services etc... They seem to think that billions of people want to play Xbox games on mobile phones and tv's without consoles! Reality is, people don't really want that! The majority want to sit down in front of their big tv, turn on their console and play games! Why Microsoft just can't see that is beyond my comprehension.
 

Mr.Phoenix

Member
£70 and 80 euro games here in europe is a complete disgrace, It's completely indefensible. Sony were the first ones to set these prices. Have you seen the price of dualsense edge? it's £200! outrageous and what about psvr2, over £500. It costs more than a ps5. Are you forgetting sony blocked ps plus, ps now stacking and stopped customers from maximising their value. That's the definition of nickle and diming.
Your disdain for Sony makes you blind to the truth.

Eg. Accusing them of being the first to do something that was actually done by someone else. take 2 was the first to do the whole $70 games thing. If you missed something that obvious... what else are you missing?

And reading everything else you said... for my sanity I am going to just assume you are joking.
 


Series S-style consoles ‘have not had great results’, says PlayStation boss​

Jim Ryan claims Sony considered a lower spec PS5, but decided it would be too ‘problematic’

Good times in 2020 when people said that having two versions was a bad idea and laughed at them, time puts everything in its place, Series S was a bad idea and now it is beginning to be recognized.
 

Eotheod

Member
Like it paid off Rare and Lionhead?

It amazes me that anyone can have faith in MS when they have demonstrated that they run those studios in the ground.

Until i see otherwise, I'd say its more likely that Bethesda flops under MS than flourishes.

I hope I am wrong as I love Bethesda franchises.
What is with people and ignoring Rare's most successful game yet just so you can say they have been driven into the ground? Sea of Thieves may not be to your tastes, but it's clearly a working formula and I'm glad they aren't being tied to doing banjo Kazooie 17 like some want.

That would be the death of the studio, not your personal tastes being uninterested in the game
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Yet, it worked out just fine for Sega....
Did it really? I mean Sega's only recently come back into relevance amongst the broader gaming sphere because of Persona and Yakuza. 2005-2016, all years no one cared. Even then, compared to now Sega's output has suffered. Quality is subjective but they objectively make less games now than they did back when they still made consoles. Less franchises, less IP. They have 6-7 IPs and they milk them for all they're worth. Even Sonic which is their mascot franchise, Frontiers was the first game in 5 years. Meanwhile you'd be hard pressed to find a gap like that in the 90s.
You can't have a situation where playstaion just completely dominates the home console space like they have done these past 2 gens.
Yeah. That's what Nintendo's for.
People keep saying Playstation will have no competition if Xbox dips even though Nintendo's been kicking ass for 40 years at this point, in sales and critical acclaim. As long as they're over there Sony will never get too ballsy, Nintendo dominates the mainstream in a way that no other company in the industry has. Not to mention PC's still an option. It really isn't just Xbox and Playstation if you wanted to play games. Even for Xbox, if they quit making consoles everyone will just hop to PC, they're adjacent anyways since Microsoft's also responsible for Windows, ecosystems are very integrated. You really wouldn't be losing much if they just decided to call it quits.

It's hypocritical how they claim to want gamers to be able to play everything yet have a videogames console.
 
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Bernoulli

M2 slut


Series S-style consoles ‘have not had great results’, says PlayStation boss​

Jim Ryan claims Sony considered a lower spec PS5, but decided it would be too ‘problematic’

Good times in 2020 when people said that having two versions was a bad idea and laughed at them, time puts everything in its place, Series S was a bad idea and now it is beginning to be recognized.

And look what they said about him

 

Banjo64

cumsessed


Series S-style consoles ‘have not had great results’, says PlayStation boss​

Jim Ryan claims Sony considered a lower spec PS5, but decided it would be too ‘problematic’

Good times in 2020 when people said that having two versions was a bad idea and laughed at them, time puts everything in its place, Series S was a bad idea and now it is beginning to be recognized.

Pretty clear that Sony’s understanding of the worldwide market is in a different league to Microsoft. It’s not pot luck if even Jim knows it, they must have the best statisticians/analysts around.
 
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Except if your that dumb fuck Crapgamer than 1% Is considered fucking excellent LMAO 💀

You realize the 1% growth came after equalizing the 13% loss in hardware revenue right? Software and services must have been decent performers to absorb that kind of hit.

Obviously, one would prefer to not have the loss in hardware or even see an increase there, but that doesn't change the numbers.
 

Monkfish877

Member
Your disdain for Sony makes you blind to the truth.

Eg. Accusing them of being the first to do something that was actually done by someone else. take 2 was the first to do the whole $70 games thing. If you missed something that obvious... what else are you missing?

And reading everything else you said... for my sanity I am going to just assume you are joking.
I dont have disdain for sony, I'm a playstation fan but I'm not a corporate ballwasher, cheerleading everything they do. Sony were the first ones to set these prices in Europehttps://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/playstation-confirms-its-ps5-games-will-cost-70/.
 
It's also starting to occur to me that Gamepass is actuality a pretty bad value proposition over time - unless you buy zero games.

Actual, full-tier Gamepass is about to be $17/mo, or $204 per year. That's about three full-priced games. Almost no one needs all of a publisher's titles, so even in MS did release three-four big drops per year, I'd have to really want that back catalog to stay in Gamepass.

The problem with THAT is those older titles are all cheap as hell. I'm planning on dropping Gamepass when my deal expires in January, so I just picked up Age of Empires II, Halo MCC, and Skyrim (which along with the F2P Halo Infinite comprise about 99% of my Xbox play time) for a total of....$35.

And then I buy full price games on Playstation, because I HAVE to have them. The only way to truly make Gamepass worth it is what publishers won't allow - BIG third party releases day and date. Resident Evil. Star Wars Jedi. Dead Space.

But that isn't going to happen.

So I'm good.

Yeah between getting rid of XBL Gold and also the MS Reward points redemption towards GP subs on top of that, I feel a lot of people are quickly going to realize just how much in actual cost the service is. The funny part is, I felt it was always a good decision to phase out Gold; too much cannibalization between it and Game Pass. I guess even skipping, say, converting existing Gold subs to GPU for the equivalent of their remaining Gold for no extra cost is okay, considering the $1 conversion deals and other pricing perks which have been readily available for years up to this point.

But completely getting rid of MS Reward points to redeem towards Game Pass subs? That one surprised me. I thought they would just scale it back by, say, 50%, or put a cap on monthly redeems or where old points would expire if they weren't used in a certain time frame, stuff like that. Microsoft just skipped right to the end of all that xD. I understand why they're doing this: Game Pass growth in revenue has been pitiful and they want to increase the ARPU. They probably are also getting worried that the service might be reaching a saturation point in terms of total subscribers between console & PC, and it's not available on mobile (well, not really unless you're cool with streaming everything). So they feel it's time to increase the ARPU off the current subs and hope sub dropoff is minimal.

As you put it, older games are very cheap to just outright buy, and I strongly doubt a single GP sub is playing all 300 or so games in the service. Gaming isn't as passive of entertainment as a show or a film, or music. Things I can have on in the background while doing other stuff (including playing games), and take less time to get through than a typical game, as well. I don't see how a subscription gaming market for something like Game Pass peaks beyond 50 million across all possible platforms (Xbox, PC, mobile), even with Day 1 for 1P titles.

That said, I don't think the limitations of Game Pass mean subscription models can't work. I still think at least Sony, maybe also Microsoft and even Nintendo, will likely need to provide an alternative between Day 1 B2P and multi-game Day 1 subscription service, that doesn't require diluting the dollar value of a game in the way pricing discounts and sales tend to do. That's where I see a per-game subscription/pay installment future being very plausible, as long as the prices are fair, and factor in future DLC & MTX as options in tiers, alongside in-economy points or perks that can be applied to other games at some period in time.

That way, publishers still get the full asking price of the game, just spread out in monthly installments, and this also relieves incentivizing with permanent price cuts & sales (why aggressive cut the price by 50% after 2 months when someone can buy the game for $5/month in perpetuity until they pay off the regular cost of the game?). It's something any digital storefront can implement; even brick & mortar should be able to by just generating an online account with billing information for those who opt in at the store with credit or debit.
 

YeulEmeralda

Linux User
Like it paid off Rare and Lionhead?

It amazes me that anyone can have faith in MS when they have demonstrated that they run those studios in the ground.

Until i see otherwise, I'd say its more likely that Bethesda flops under MS than flourishes.

I hope I am wrong as I love Bethesda franchises.
In my opinion Fallout 4 already showed that they lost the spark but who knows? Maybe they actually found good writers for Starfield.
 

Bry0

Member
Did you learn nothing from the FTC/CMA trials?
You think I got time to read through all that? I didn’t really follow any of it that closely.
So why would MS care if you are on Xbox or pc if you are in their ecosystem either way? Seriously. I don’t understand why they would care when it benefits them either way.
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Yeah between getting rid of XBL Gold and also the MS Reward points redemption towards GP subs on top of that, I feel a lot of people are quickly going to realize just how much in actual cost the service is. The funny part is, I felt it was always a good decision to phase out Gold; too much cannibalization between it and Game Pass. I guess even skipping, say, converting existing Gold subs to GPU for the equivalent of their remaining Gold for no extra cost is okay, considering the $1 conversion deals and other pricing perks which have been readily available for years up to this point.

But completely getting rid of MS Reward points to redeem towards Game Pass subs? That one surprised me. I thought they would just scale it back by, say, 50%, or put a cap on monthly redeems or where old points would expire if they weren't used in a certain time frame, stuff like that. Microsoft just skipped right to the end of all that xD. I understand why they're doing this: Game Pass growth in revenue has been pitiful and they want to increase the ARPU. They probably are also getting worried that the service might be reaching a saturation point in terms of total subscribers between console & PC, and it's not available on mobile (well, not really unless you're cool with streaming everything). So they feel it's time to increase the ARPU off the current subs and hope sub dropoff is minimal.

As you put it, older games are very cheap to just outright buy, and I strongly doubt a single GP sub is playing all 300 or so games in the service. Gaming isn't as passive of entertainment as a show or a film, or music. Things I can have on in the background while doing other stuff (including playing games), and take less time to get through than a typical game, as well. I don't see how a subscription gaming market for something like Game Pass peaks beyond 50 million across all possible platforms (Xbox, PC, mobile), even with Day 1 for 1P titles.

That said, I don't think the limitations of Game Pass mean subscription models can't work. I still think at least Sony, maybe also Microsoft and even Nintendo, will likely need to provide an alternative between Day 1 B2P and multi-game Day 1 subscription service, that doesn't require diluting the dollar value of a game in the way pricing discounts and sales tend to do. That's where I see a per-game subscription/pay installment future being very plausible, as long as the prices are fair, and factor in future DLC & MTX as options in tiers, alongside in-economy points or perks that can be applied to other games at some period in time.

That way, publishers still get the full asking price of the game, just spread out in monthly installments, and this also relieves incentivizing with permanent price cuts & sales (why aggressive cut the price by 50% after 2 months when someone can buy the game for $5/month in perpetuity until they pay off the regular cost of the game?). It's something any digital storefront can implement; even brick & mortar should be able to by just generating an online account with billing information for those who opt in at the store with credit or debit.
cool textwall ya fuckin essay writer :messenger_winking_tongue: you should be writing news articles not staying on gaf

But the real solution is to bargain hard with other companies like Capcom, Fromsoft and Sega to get their biggest releases on GP day one. If Xbox is going to use MS money at least use it smartly. Sub service gamepass would be infinitely more of a selling point than just Starfield or Forza would ever be. They push gamepass like their life depends on it (tbf it actually does) but the new games they add are either dated stuff that's been out for 6+ months already or indie junk.
 
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Optimus Lime

(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
It's also starting to occur to me that Gamepass is actuality a pretty bad value proposition over time - unless you buy zero games.

Actual, full-tier Gamepass is about to be $17/mo, or $204 per year. That's about three full-priced games. Almost no one needs all of a publisher's titles, so even in MS did release three-four big drops per year, I'd have to really want that back catalog to stay in Gamepass.

The problem with THAT is those older titles are all cheap as hell. I'm planning on dropping Gamepass when my deal expires in January, so I just picked up Age of Empires II, Halo MCC, and Skyrim (which along with the F2P Halo Infinite comprise about 99% of my Xbox play time) for a total of....$35.

And then I buy full price games on Playstation, because I HAVE to have them. The only way to truly make Gamepass worth it is what publishers won't allow - BIG third party releases day and date. Resident Evil. Star Wars Jedi. Dead Space.

But that isn't going to happen.

So I'm good.
Underrated post. I came to very similar conclulsions recently.

I have been on PCGP because I have a 4090 and have no reason to turn on the Xbox. But, Microsoft switched on the CoD servers, so I thought I'd subscribe and check out the nostalgia.

I refunded immediately once the memberberries fog lifted.

So, Gamepass Ultimate is now $18.95AUD. Or $227.40AUD per year.

Microsoft isn't offering a plethora of new releases. It's mostly reheated stuff that I already own on Steam, or indie shovelware that I don't care about, and frankly, is cheap enough to just buy on Steam if I want it.

Don't give a shit about Xcloud.

So, ultimately, Microsoft hiked the price for no reason that I can see, now expects me to pay the equivalent of Netflix, for... what? Playing online? What is this, 2010? To play Forza Horizon 5 on an Xbox? The value proposition for me is beyond non-existent. The 'best deal in gaming', for me, is no such thing.

Sony, on the other hand, has a similar offering. For 12 months, I can get PS Plus Deluxe for $154AUD. I don't get garbage like Xcloud, and I don't get their new releases, but their back catalogue is far more attractive to me - they added Samurai/Dynasty warriors, Rune Factory, they have their goofy 'classic catalogue' stuff, and I get the discounts.

So, in comparison, Microsoft offers me their one or two AAA titles that release every year, and so little else that it seems absurd that they've jacked up the price. And, I want Starfield on Steam anyway to get access to the Steam community features, Workshop support, etc.

Phil's plan just seems so half baked, poorly thought out and executed, and dependent on the idea that you don't own any games at all, while Jim Ryan's is flawed, but feels like Sony still prioritises their console marketplace over anything else, and they believe in the value of premium, hardware-driven software.

Come on, Phil. Give me a REASON to pony up that $18.95 a month and I'll do it. But I'm not just throwing money into a hole because I have such good memories of 2004-era Xbox Live. Not anymore.
 

ByWatterson

Member
Yeah between getting rid of XBL Gold and also the MS Reward points redemption towards GP subs on top of that, I feel a lot of people are quickly going to realize just how much in actual cost the service is. The funny part is, I felt it was always a good decision to phase out Gold; too much cannibalization between it and Game Pass. I guess even skipping, say, converting existing Gold subs to GPU for the equivalent of their remaining Gold for no extra cost is okay, considering the $1 conversion deals and other pricing perks which have been readily available for years up to this point.

But completely getting rid of MS Reward points to redeem towards Game Pass subs? That one surprised me. I thought they would just scale it back by, say, 50%, or put a cap on monthly redeems or where old points would expire if they weren't used in a certain time frame, stuff like that. Microsoft just skipped right to the end of all that xD. I understand why they're doing this: Game Pass growth in revenue has been pitiful and they want to increase the ARPU. They probably are also getting worried that the service might be reaching a saturation point in terms of total subscribers between console & PC, and it's not available on mobile (well, not really unless you're cool with streaming everything). So they feel it's time to increase the ARPU off the current subs and hope sub dropoff is minimal.

As you put it, older games are very cheap to just outright buy, and I strongly doubt a single GP sub is playing all 300 or so games in the service. Gaming isn't as passive of entertainment as a show or a film, or music. Things I can have on in the background while doing other stuff (including playing games), and take less time to get through than a typical game, as well. I don't see how a subscription gaming market for something like Game Pass peaks beyond 50 million across all possible platforms (Xbox, PC, mobile), even with Day 1 for 1P titles.

That said, I don't think the limitations of Game Pass mean subscription models can't work. I still think at least Sony, maybe also Microsoft and even Nintendo, will likely need to provide an alternative between Day 1 B2P and multi-game Day 1 subscription service, that doesn't require diluting the dollar value of a game in the way pricing discounts and sales tend to do. That's where I see a per-game subscription/pay installment future being very plausible, as long as the prices are fair, and factor in future DLC & MTX as options in tiers, alongside in-economy points or perks that can be applied to other games at some period in time.

That way, publishers still get the full asking price of the game, just spread out in monthly installments, and this also relieves incentivizing with permanent price cuts & sales (why aggressive cut the price by 50% after 2 months when someone can buy the game for $5/month in perpetuity until they pay off the regular cost of the game?). It's something any digital storefront can implement; even brick & mortar should be able to by just generating an online account with billing information for those who opt in at the store with credit or debit.

Yeah - I think Sony and Nintendo may truly have found the sweet spot.

It's the new "theater and then DVD ten months later" model.
 

kiphalfton

Member
Lol at trying to distract from the software issue, by saying it's a hardware issue.

How deluded do you have be to point your finger at anything but the true perpetrator.
 
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64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Yeah - I think Sony and Nintendo may truly have found the sweet spot.

It's the new "theater and then DVD ten months later" model.
Nintendo? What do they do? Sony putting games on PS plus makes sense, but Nintendo doesnt do anything as far as i know, besides those 30 year old games they offer on NSO. you just gotta buy them.
 
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ByWatterson

Member
Nintendo? What do they do? Sony putting games on PS plus makes sense, but Nintendo doesnt do anything as far as i know, besides those 30 year old games they sell on NSO.

Yeah, Nintendo is VERY slowly moving into this space, but I mean affordable access to back titles. I'd assume Switch stuff will go in there eventually if Switch 2 is BC.

I mostly mean Sony, though, you're right.
 
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bender

What time is it?
But completely getting rid of MS Reward points to redeem towards Game Pass subs? That one surprised me.

But they haven't done this (XLG and PC Game Pass are still options). Reading too much into redeemable rewards that often are removed and re-added is a mistake. Microsoft Rewards is also one of the poorest run programs that Microsoft offers and is often is various states of being broken. You just don't hear a lot of complaints because of the nature of the program.
 

Banjo64

cumsessed
Yeah - I think Sony and Nintendo may truly have found the sweet spot.

It's the new "theater and then DVD ten months later" model.
For sure.

In Sony’s case - they’ve had multiple sales where 12 months of Extra has been sub £50. Even paying for 12 months at the standard rate is better value than Game Pass, considering the quality of Sony’s games that are on the service.

In Nintendo’s case - you can now get the Expansion Pack membership for £25 on third party websites. They’ve gradually added loads of games, to the point where it’s actually really good now.

The issue with Xbox is that their options are all over the place.

Game Pass Core - decent on paper, compared to Gold, but I can’t help but feel they are being extremely stingy with the selection. They could add plenty of older Xbox 360/One first party games and it wouldn’t detract too much from Ultimate. The talk of 2-4 updates a year make me think this is just going to be another shitty no effort GWG style disappointment.

Console Game Pass - the most pointless waste of time ever. Costs more than Core, but has no online. Costs more than PC Game Pass, but has no EA Access.

PC Game Pass - the right balance in terms of content and price.

Game Pass Ultimate - a huge rip off at £155.88 per year for 95%+ of their console users. Sub 1% care about xCloud, their PC users don’t have to pay extra for EA Access, probably 1-5% of Xbox owners also game on a PC.
 

Vox Machina

Banned
more horrible than Xbox hardware console performance in the market?

3 failures in a row. There is no way a division would have been able to sustain itself for so long.

Absolutely, unequivocally worse. The Xbox business is now about more than JUST console sales. Console is obviously still a part of their business, and an important one, for sure. But There are ways to be a successful gaming business without selling the most plastic boxes.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
I think now that they know the PS5 Pro is coming it has a lot of team green shook.

black comedy GIF by ABC Indigenous

I wonder if they think or know that MS doing 2 sku's at the start of the gen is effecting MS doing a mid gen refresh.

Or the Series X truly is the mid gen refresh. If so.....wow

This was in the article, seems to have gotten overlooked:

Sony doesn't have to deal with this SKU disparity. Instead of trying to target the lower-end market, Sony is instead plowing ahead with an even more powerful PS5 Pro according to reports. Tentatively, based on my research, it seems that Microsoft is not going to have an answer for the PS5 Pro either, at least initially. The PS5 Pro will be more powerful (and more expensive) than the PS5 and Xbox Series X, potentially allowing for 60 FPS or higher frame rates without compromising 4K resolution.
 

MacReady13

Member
Launching the console with NOTHING in 2020 while your rival has Spiderman Miles Morales, Demons soul remake, sackboy adventure, then between Halo infinite Dec 2021 and starfield sept 2023 (almost 2 years) you don't get AAA sell consoles (only Hifi rush and Redfail), well It is normal that you have completely killed the sales inertia and you are doing worse than ONE, in the USA since September of last year PS5 sells 2:1 compared to Xbox.
Yeah but you don't get it- they are ONLY relying on Game Pass to get them through this! You know, the best deal in gaming!?!
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
In Nintendo’s case - you can now get the Expansion Pack membership for £25 on third party websites. They’ve gradually added loads of games, to the point where it’s actually really good now.
also im sorry but no. Expansion pack will never be a good deal so long as retroarch on android/iphone exists. Their dripfeed is astounding and for the 1/2 games they add that are worth it, there are 3 games you've never heard of and dont care for.

The best thing about NSO are the vouchers. And even then 99 dollars..... a bit ridiculous, when Nintendo selects got you 2 triple a Nintendo games for way cheaper.
 

analog_future

Resident Crybaby
Some of you guys just don't seem to "get it". The bolded IS THE PROBLEM. Their whole hardware strategy was bad from the beginning. It's why Nintendo was smart to change their hardware approach to only making games for the Switch and not having a console and then a separate handheld gaming system.

Sony too. They have two different skus, but the only difference is one has a blu-ray drive. The system is the exact same outside of that one thing. Too many skus is bad!

The majority of Sony PS5 games have also released on PS4. And virtually all of them have come or are coming to PC.

Your argument doesn’t hold up.
 
Absolutely, unequivocally worse. The Xbox business is now about more than JUST console sales. Console is obviously still a part of their business, and an important one, for sure. But There are ways to be a successful gaming business without selling the most plastic boxes.
That is the point. I don't think consoles are important to Microsoft at all. They are keeping them mainly for the store front.

Starfield is going to be such an important releases because is the game that MS has not been able to make since...Gears? (and some more). Starfield is a genere defining game, a GOTY, Game of the Generation a new IP from a highly acclaimed Studio.

If this game doesn't increase substantially how many consoles Xbox sells in that quarter; they are fucked.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
I wonder if they think or know that MS doing 2 sku's at the start of the gen is effecting MS doing a mid gen refresh.

Or the Series X truly is the mid gen refresh. If so.....wow

This was in the article, seems to have gotten overlooked:
Sony doesn't have to deal with this SKU disparity. Instead of trying to target the lower-end market, Sony is instead plowing ahead with an even more powerful PS5 Pro according to reports. Tentatively, based on my research, it seems that Microsoft is not going to have an answer for the PS5 Pro either, at least initially. The PS5 Pro will be more powerful (and more expensive) than the PS5 and Xbox Series X, potentially allowing for 60 FPS or higher frame rates without compromising 4K resolution.

For whatever its worth after gaming with some people recently I must say IF Xbox has a pro in the pipeline they are keeping it top secret and they are 100% confident the PS5 Pro is coming
 
YOU HEAR THAT PHIL

GAMES

GAMES SELL SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES

PEOPLE DONT JUST SUB FOR THE SAKE OF SUBBING

DO YOUR DAMN JOB

I think you grossly undervalue the games on GP, tbh. And PS+ users largely agree with me on that.

A couple new smaller games are worth 10 Sony exclusives 3 or 4 years after the fact, hence why the game with the highest number of players on PS+ is the cat game (one of the only day and date games on the service). And MS has a game coming out soon that will likely rival the sales of anything Sony can release in the entire generation (if performance is similar to the previous releases from the studio). The mix of large and small NEW games is 100x more valuable than a EAplay type service built on games most have already played.

The older games MS mixes in have some value, they shouldn't stop including those all together, but the real value comes in day one games of all sizes.
 
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ByWatterson

Member
Game Pass Core - decent on paper, compared to Gold, but I can’t help but feel they are being extremely stingy with the selection. They could add plenty of older Xbox 360/One first party games and it wouldn’t detract too much from Ultimate. The talk of 2-4 updates a year make me think this is just going to be another shitty no effort GWG style disappointment.

Console Game Pass - the most pointless waste of time ever. Costs more than Core, but has no online. Costs more than PC Game Pass, but has no EA Access.

PC Game Pass - the right balance in terms of content and price.

Game Pass Ultimate - a huge rip off at £155.88 per year for 95%+ of their console users. Sub 1% care about xCloud, their PC users don’t have to pay extra for EA Access, probably 1-5% of Xbox owners also game on a PC.

Yeah.

As I've said elsewhere, I think these options (Core pretty good but limited, GPU complete but exorbitant) are designed to get some to pay for GPU, but most others to go back to buying games.

I think it's a tacit admission of defeat of the Gamepass model as currently built.
 
I think you grossly undervalue the games on GP, tbh. And PS+ users largely agree with me on that.

A couple new smaller games are worth 10 Sony exclusives 3 or 4 years after the fact, hence why the game with the highest number of players on PS+ is the cat game (one of the only day and date games on the service). And MS has a game coming out soon that will likely rival the sales of anything Sony can release in the entire generation (if performance is similar to the previous releases from the studio). The mix of large and small NEW games is 100x more valuable than a EAplay type service built on games most have already played.

The older games MS mixes in have some value, they shouldn't stop including those all together, but the real value comes in day one games of all sizes.

What drugs are you smoking if you think Starfield, without PlayStation and Switch, will rival the long-term sales of let alone Spiderman 2, needless to say anything like the next God of War?

While they aren't everything in terms of being a good measure, trailer views on Starfield are notably lower than anything compared to Spiderman 2. Most of Starfield's interest online seems to be from enthusiasts but the rule with that is, there are fewer enthusiasts yet they talk about the same thing way more & louder than the majority.

Since PS+ also entails online play, the game with the highest # of players actually isn't Stray. It's likely a game like COD, or GT7, or SF6 etc which would at least be much higher than Stray in cumulative player counts via PS+. I'm not even going to touch the rotten apple that is equivalating a couple smaller releases on GP equal to 10 Sony 1P games/exclusives 3-4 years later. If that were actually true among the majority, Game Pass subscription numbers would be better across the board.

But they haven't done this (XLG and PC Game Pass are still options). Reading too much into redeemable rewards that often are removed and re-added is a mistake. Microsoft Rewards is also one of the poorest run programs that Microsoft offers and is often is various states of being broken. You just don't hear a lot of complaints because of the nature of the program.

Isn't the purpose of Game Pass Core to finally phase out XBL Gold? If it isn't, then MS management at Xbox need to be summarily fired, today. The way I read it, Core basically replaces XBL Gold; you can even buy Core for an annual price, just like Gold today.

PC Game Pass I will say is still an option, and always will be. But, that has nothing really to do with the console side, IMO, and that's where I'm focused. I don't know any of the BTS issues with MS Rewards, but there was the recent discovery that in some territories it went missing for Game Pass, so people are speculating it's being removed as an option. Which, if true, is quite drastic.

Though even if it isn't, I'm expecting MS will scale back the amount of points people can redeem towards Game Pass monthly, so point-hoarding will basically be skimmed down. I don't know if people can gift MS Reward points to others but if so, I could see them cutting that too. Although, if they hard-cap the amount of redeemable points (maybe even basing that amount around what tier of Game Pass you are subscribed to, and for how long, like in terms of continuous subs), it wouldn't be necessary.

cool textwall ya fuckin essay writer :messenger_winking_tongue: you should be writing news articles not staying on gaf

But the real solution is to bargain hard with other companies like Capcom, Fromsoft and Sega to get their biggest releases on GP day one. If Xbox is going to use MS money at least use it smartly. Sub service gamepass would be infinitely more of a selling point than just Starfield or Forza would ever be. They push gamepass like their life depends on it (tbf it actually does) but the new games they add are either dated stuff that's been out for 6+ months already or indie junk.

They should be doing that, for what games they legally can anyway (i.e any 3P game Sony has a marketing deal with likely has a no-Game Pass clause in there, for obvious reasons). The problem for Microsoft is, the cost to pay to cover for potential loss revenue on multiple platforms (not just Xbox) would be massive.

We're talking about losing x% of B2P sales on Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo, and Steam due to Day 1 Game Pass availability. Then, the knock-on effect of some players on those platforms just waiting for a steep sale while also refusing to join Game Pass to get the game, nullifying a big part of Microsoft's strategy with those deals. Publishers also know that the majority will buy the game at launch if the perception of value through quality is there, and that's a lot of easy revenue otherwise left on the table.

If anything, Microsoft could try arranging deals where those with a Game Pass sub get a 15% discount off the game on Xbox platforms, but they otherwise still have to, y'know, buy the game. Or maybe have certain DLC or MTX perks tied in to the game for those subbed to Game Pass. That would be their best approach, otherwise getting those big 3P AAA releases Day 1 into the service might be perceived as too costly for them (ironic, I know, but at least with spending $69 billion on ABK they own all that content in perpetuity).
 
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THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Hardware supply for the X and hardware capability for the S are under scrutiny.

Hardware supply for X has been fine for a long, long time, and the S is just fine for the market it's being sold to. Doesn't matter what the hardcore say here, the casuals are happy with S at it's price point.
 

Sanepar

Member
It's also starting to occur to me that Gamepass is actuality a pretty bad value proposition over time - unless you buy zero games.

Actual, full-tier Gamepass is about to be $17/mo, or $204 per year. That's about three full-priced games. Almost no one needs all of a publisher's titles, so even in MS did release three-four big drops per year, I'd have to really want that back catalog to stay in Gamepass.

The problem with THAT is those older titles are all cheap as hell. I'm planning on dropping Gamepass when my deal expires in January, so I just picked up Age of Empires II, Halo MCC, and Skyrim (which along with the F2P Halo Infinite comprise about 99% of my Xbox play time) for a total of....$35.

And then I buy full price games on Playstation, because I HAVE to have them. The only way to truly make Gamepass worth it is what publishers won't allow - BIG third party releases day and date. Resident Evil. Star Wars Jedi. Dead Space.

But that isn't going to happen.

So I'm good.
If subscriptions were the best value for consumers companies would not make it. Subscriptions are good for companies and create an ilusion that is cheap.
 

MacReady13

Member
Yeah.

As I've said elsewhere, I think these options (Core pretty good but limited, GPU complete but exorbitant) are designed to get some to pay for GPU, but most others to go back to buying games.

I think it's a tacit admission of defeat of the Gamepass model as currently built.
Agree. This is a neat little way of inflating game pass subscribers so that it looks great when they are asked about subscription numbers. They don't care about anything but getting people to sub for their sub service.
 
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