KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
I feel like a damn parrot repeating this line in every "what's a JRPG" thread. Action RPGs predate some of these "traditional" ones.
With this generation, the last bastion of JRPGs is seemingly coming to an end.
- Thread starter Firemind
- Start date
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Yup. Jrpgs have all kinds of battle systems nowadays.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
This is the kind of attitude I really dislike. Making a game turn-based isn't a compromise. As several people have pointed out, Action/RPGs have been around for as long as turn-based RPGs have. It's not like Enix made Dragon Quest 3 because they were incompetent and if they had just been better programmers & designers, they would have made Crystalis instead. They wanted to make a turn-based RPG and so they did.
You may not care for turn-based, but that's your own choice. I'd rather play Grandia than Kingdom Hearts. I'd rather play Civilization than Starcraft. Some people prefer the opposite. And that's okay.
IAmRandom31
Banned
We're on it.
Yup yup! Represent!
I've always wondered with the age of kickstarter and great indie teams how the 16-bit era JRPG isn't being created more often. Can't really even think of a kickstarted JRPG or an indie JRPG at all. So yeah, been hyped for Cosmic Star Heroine since the first mention of Phantasy Star.
Its fun having Witcher 3 and FFX at home atm on the PS4. Gives me a chance to see just how much more involved and deep and entertaining the JRPG turn based battle system is compared to the WRPG action based combat system, and at the same time able to see how much more atmospheric and engrossing the open world gameplay of Witcher 3 is compared to the linearity of FFX. 2 vastly different games that have their absolute strengths in their different areas.
I'll take turn based over action combat in my RPG's all day long. I'd love to see an RPG combine the open world nature of WRPG's with the combat of FFX. What could of been for FFXV actually, but killed by its currently bland and boring combat system.
Robert, that's a fair judgement of the medium, but i think as i said, what we have now is just the reality of how the marketplace turned out. Which is in turn why you are making your game sure, but we still have to accept that the originators of this medium have changed focus or left.
We have to go with the flow or we'll never be happy again with how things go unfortunately
We have to go with the flow or we'll never be happy again with how things go unfortunately
Oh please. If that's your way of dismissal, your just going to have deal with not being satisfied.
14 is a legitimately good game, 15 has a lot of promise even if its not traditional.
If people's definitions for games only stay drowned in nostalgia and very slim definitions for elements people can't even agree on as a fanbase, there's no helping it.
It's called Final Fantasy Dimensions and they released it on phones.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Although I don't agree with the idea that all turn-based is a 'compromise', since many developers prefer that system even now, in the case of Final Fantasy, Sakaguchi is even on record for saying something to the effect that he himself should have made next gen JRPGs on next gen hardware, in reference to their battle systems.
So yes, your post is correct. Just pointing out that FF was an instance of a dev sticking with something he was more comfortable with, instead of pushing for something different.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Oh, I agree that it's the reality of the marketplace these days and yeah, we gotta make the best of it. I HATED Xenoblade the first time I played it for not being a good old-fashioned JRPG. I shelved it for a few months, decided to give it a second try, and ended up loving it (trying out non-Shulk characters as my main really helped). And though they're not really RPGs and they've kind of invented their own genre at this point, I love what From Soft is doing these day. Bloodborne's mix of Ultima Underworld, Castlevania, and Lovecraft is amazing.
But yeah, I miss the good old days.
Kickstarter hasn't really caught on much with Japanese creators. And in general, we haven't seen a whole lot of big successes with JRPGs on Kickstarter. The only heavily backed Kickstarter I can think of that's actually delivered so far is Pier Solar and that was a game that was already done (the KS was for ports & enhancements). Hopefully, Cosmic Star Heroine will be one of the first big JRPG Kickstarter success stories when it comes out.
I think the big problem is that if you make a game that's on par with RPGMaker, then you're not taking seriously because there are so many half-finished, mediocre RPGMaker games. However, if you make a game that's more sophisticated than RPGMaker, then it's really easy to bite off more than you can chew. JRPGs really aren't that hard to make when you keep things simple (NES or early SNES style) but even late SNES style like we're trying to do is exponentially more difficult than it seems at first glance.
jrpgs are fine. They are not making a big come back like crpgs are, but they are still here. Main problem with the genre is that Japanese companies couldn't keep up with the AAA arms race. They spend an entire generation creating an engine, and when their first game comes out, the current generation already ended. I have no doubt we will see multiple games on the p5 engine.
It's time to expand your horizon. Tons of great games out there, even if they are are on handhelds.
It's time to expand your horizon. Tons of great games out there, even if they are are on handhelds.
Kemco has produced several dozen of them over the last 3 years or so in conjunction with about 4 other companies, the vast majority of which are available in English for about $4 apiece on iOS and Android.
Unfortunately, they tend to be pretty forgettable and generic, but they work for killing about 8-10 hours each.
2018?We're on it.
At the risk of being crucified, this sounds like about close to 50% of JRPGs on PS2. :V
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Some things about FFD are surprisingly good (like the music & job system). Other aspects, not so much (like the dialogue & the level design). It's the kind of game I would expect from a moderately talented new indie team, not from a huge company that made its reputation as one of the pioneers of the genre.
We're aiming for later this year.
If you're asking why traditional turn based RPG's seem to be dying, maybe it's because it's an incredibly archaic design style that for the most part shouldn't exist. The only reason to make a turn based rpg nowadays is if you want to pack in a lot of strategic depth to your combat system. A good example of this is Bravely Default, which has a wide variety of strategies you can pull off depending on what skills and jobs you use and level. Yet 80% of them stuck with the combat system of "Attack, magic attack, use item", with character progression being static and unmalleable. It's boring.
I'd argue Persona 5, Xeno chronicles X, and FF15 are bringing a resurgence to the genre. Disqualifying them because they bothered to innovate with the times seems foolish.
I'd argue Persona 5, Xeno chronicles X, and FF15 are bringing a resurgence to the genre. Disqualifying them because they bothered to innovate with the times seems foolish.
We're on it.
Physical release please!
In my opinion, 15's demo sucks.
I played it the day I got Type-0 and really didn't like it, so I banished it to the far corners of my XBone's harddrive. Well, I decided to give it another shot this weekend and while I progressed a lot farther than my initial attempt...I still think it sucks.
You aren't wrong. A lot of ps2 rpgs were down right bad.
Again, it's completely possible to innovate both in the action space and the turn-based space. Bravely Default in your own words does exactly this.
Atelier and Neptunia have been quoted in this thread multiple times as combat systems that successfully do that. Obviously the setting and writing don't do much for a large fraction of the target market that might otherwise have enjoyed the game's combat.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
You're playing the wrong games. SMT. Grandia. Etrian Odyssey. The later Wild Arms. Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter. Turn-based gameplay can be fantastic.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I think the issue with JRPG's these days is that its far too rigid. The genre certainly isn't dying, but its certainly focusing into very rigid subsets. The days where Japan was spitting out brilliant titles like Wild Arms, Grandia, Alundra, Breath of Fire, Shadow Hearts....they're gone, no doubt.
These days, most JRPG's that release are either Etrian Odyssey style dungeon crawlers, which I personally love, or the fan service heavy junk that the likes of Compile Heart milk to death, which I'm less of a fan of. Like I said earlier in the thread, the golden days are long gone, but there's still plenty more to look forward to as far as I'm concerned.
These days, most JRPG's that release are either Etrian Odyssey style dungeon crawlers, which I personally love, or the fan service heavy junk that the likes of Compile Heart milk to death, which I'm less of a fan of. Like I said earlier in the thread, the golden days are long gone, but there's still plenty more to look forward to as far as I'm concerned.
i hope you know that persona 5 is likely to be a turn based rpg
Have to say I mostly agree with your assessment, though to be honest, it's been better in terms of announcements the last couple years than it had been in a long time.
Man I agree with you a lot. Though in my case, I like both starcraft and Civ quite a bit.
Also, gotta say, I'll probably be one of your customers when you release your game, too.
Edit:
You realize that Persona 5 is turn based, right?
Don't forget, sometimes you get fan service heavy EO style dungeon crawlers!
Dark_castle
Junior Member
As long as we're talking about JRPG, what the hell are Sakaguchi and Matsuno working on these days. Creators with a lot of talent and experience, working on small throwaway mobile games, especially the latter. Blasphemy really.
As I stated in my full point, I agree, turn based gameplay can be fantastic, and those are all games worth playing, but for every one of those you mentioned, there's one that followed the "regular attack, or special attack that uses a little mp" and that's it. Incidentally, I'd say your game is an example of doing it right. While CSH intentionally evokes nostalgia for rpg's of the 16 bit era, it wisely tries things to keep the combat system interesting.
Generally, I like the aesthetics in JRPGs and I like exploring towns and a world map well enough, but I've never been a big fan of traditional JRPG combat. Because of that I'm all for traditional JRPG franchises maintaining the exploration elements while also turning into action games.
granted, the only example I can think of where this is actually happening is Final Fantasy, lol.
granted, the only example I can think of where this is actually happening is Final Fantasy, lol.
Sakaguchi is still invested in Terra Battle. He seemed baffled that the game would even hit 2 million downloads. I wonder if he still plans to do a console iteration of the game or not?
As for Matsuno, I'm not sure.
Newtype-001
Member
Sakaguchi=
F2p mobile game.
Yes, although most of the basic facets of it aren't even set in stone yet. I don't see them completely doing this internally though since Mistwalker is about a dozen people, give or take. This probably is going to have to be some sort of collaboration.
Matsuno didn't want to work on big titles anymore, didn't he?
You know I'm not saying that making everything action based counts as innovation right? It's a way you can do it, but it's not the only way. Persona is turn based, but all of your abilities can change depending on what friends you make, which demons you fuse, the abilities those demons have, etc. Then there's the press turn system focused on exploiting weaknesses and so on. To a certain extent, a lot of these have been with SMT since the beginning, but tying combat abilities to social links gave a fresh spin to the game I appreciated that really emphasized the player's party, whom are mostly extraneous as far as most SMT games go.
My maybe unpopular opinion, but I think handhelds and especially iOS popularity has a lot to do with decline of a genre. With people (devs) companies moving there it influenced genre in a way I don't particularly like, but Robert already talked some about it.
Talk that turn based JRPGs aren't needed anymore is just unfounded, there are not enough turn based JRPGs anywhere to see any decline in sales whatsoever. There are simply not enough games for statistics. In my eyes they are as needed as ever.
I don't see anything else that can be blamed as much, if at all.
As for not being middle budged JRPGs, as I keep repeating - gaming industry is deeply sick because tier that should be most represent in any genre - middle budget games - is absent from any. Middle budget games are simply gone, or amount of them is very insignificant comparing to high budget games and low budget games (mostly indie games these days). This situation simply doesn't make sense, is unnatural and can't end well.
Talk that turn based JRPGs aren't needed anymore is just unfounded, there are not enough turn based JRPGs anywhere to see any decline in sales whatsoever. There are simply not enough games for statistics. In my eyes they are as needed as ever.
I don't see anything else that can be blamed as much, if at all.
As for not being middle budged JRPGs, as I keep repeating - gaming industry is deeply sick because tier that should be most represent in any genre - middle budget games - is absent from any. Middle budget games are simply gone, or amount of them is very insignificant comparing to high budget games and low budget games (mostly indie games these days). This situation simply doesn't make sense, is unnatural and can't end well.
autoduelist
Member
Already had a list before I got to this post, so:
-Legion of Dragon
-Sky of Sarcania
-Breath of Ice
.
If people want to know what killed the console jrpg you need only look at the ds.
The idea that everyone wanted a non turn based system because it is archaic or whatever is a laughable misconception. FF games did want this, of course, which is why they moved over to ATB in the early 90's and besides a brief venture back into pure turn based with FFX have been moving in this direction for over twenty years.
DQ stayed purely turn based until the MMO and even then is pretty damn turn based. We'll see what 11 brings but they did back down from making IX an action game.
DQ stayed purely turn based until the MMO and even then is pretty damn turn based. We'll see what 11 brings but they did back down from making IX an action game.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
That wasn't the murder weapons, that was one of the coroners.
You mean Skies of Mobilia.
Get it? Arcade -> Acadia, Mobile -> Mobilia?
please don't hurt me
JRPG's aren't dying, but the big budget JRPG is dying.
There are a lot of turn-turn based rpg's that were made in the west and also had more combat depth than anything in japan.
Western game development tends to evolve faster than Japanese game development so in the mid 90's people were already trying to get realtime combat into wrpg's.
There are a lot of turn-turn based rpg's that were made in the west and also had more combat depth than anything in japan.
Western game development tends to evolve faster than Japanese game development so in the mid 90's people were already trying to get realtime combat into wrpg's.
I'm glad you asked. They're both working on my favorite game these days. Terra Battle! It's totally not a "small throwaway mobile game" really. It's by far one of Mistwalkers best games, up there with Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey. Way better than ASH, more polished than Away, and much more balanced than the Blue Dragon RTS and the diablo clone on DS.
They're really slow with getting new content out, but the content is pretty solid, so I mostly complaint for a month, and then get very happy when something is eventually released.
Matsuno is working on a Terra Battle dungeon scenario event. Sakaguchi referred to it as "Matsuno World" in a recent interview. He's giving Matsuno a lot of freedom to come up with whatever he wants, using the world setting of Terra Battle as a framework.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Maybe on handhelds. To me PS4 is looking a lot better than PS3.
That's a pretty low bar. But even with the low bar, is it even true? Let's not forget that early on, the PS3 also looked promising. Then stuff simply failed to materialize, and announcements dried up. The PS3 still ended up with two tri-Ace games (soon to be three!), five Tales Of games, three FFXIII games, Nier, Drakengard 3, Valkyria Chronicles, and like 500 Nippon Ichi and Idea Factory games. What does the PS4 have?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Agreed. And CSH isn't even out yet. Hell, maybe I'll be horribly disappointed
but I'm still convinced it'll be a million times better than any modern FF.Agreed with your post for the most part, particularly the bolded.
But I'd go further and say that instead of missing the PS2 era, I really miss the PS1 era. PS2 is when JRPGs started declining for me. The last one from that era I enjoyed is Suikoden V, and Trails in the Sky (though it's had a modern re-release but it's a 2004 game originally). And even those are still not as good as Suikoden II, Wild ARMs, BoF III, FF Tactics, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Xenogears, etc. I really really miss the 32-bit era. Sadly the closest thing to that is released only on handhelds which I can't stand. I tried the Bravely Default demo and enjoyed the gameplay, the combat was great... but my hands and neck really suffered for it, and I really loathed the art style so I probably won't ever bother with the full game.
Never could stand the pseudo-action combat. Either give me full action (like Ys or the Souls gameS) or turn-based or ATB, but the stuff like in Xenoblade, Ni No Kuni, urgh... worst of both worlds.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
My generation ratings are probably PS2/GC/XBox/Dreamcast > PS1/Saturn/N64 > SNES/Genesis/TG > PS3/360/Wii > NES/SM. Dragon Quest 8 (my favorite in the series along with DQ6), Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, Wild Arms 4 (sue me, it's my favorite game in the series other than maybe XF), all the great Atlus games, and so on and so on. A strong case can be made for the 16-bit & 32-bit generations if you count Japanese imports as well, but if you're sticking with official English releases, it's hard to beat the PS2 generation. Also, perhaps more than any other generation, JRPGs were almost entirely focused on a single system.