Schnozberry
Member
Ares primary interest is permanent war, so perhaps he didn't give her the best formulas until it was necessary.
Wonder Woman |OT| The World is Ready for You, Gal Gad [SPOILERS]
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Ares primary interest is permanent war, so perhaps he didn't give her the best formulas until it was necessary.
TropicalFish
Member
Actually the thing I liked about Ares in the film is that he was interpreted as someone who wasn't seeking a permanent state of conflict on earth; just an end to humanity. Call it jealousy towards his father's creations or being the only olympian to truly see how fucked up humanity is as a species (or a mix of both tbh), but his end goal was to rid the world of us to make it a more peaceful place. Hence his initial speech with Diana trying to persuade her to his side.
It's a different take on him which I liked.
Maybe that was the original idea behind it, but that's not what happens in the movie. You guys are describing a third act that doesn't exist.
As is, we see Lutendorf take the pills but it's not until his fight with Diana that we even understand what they do. Feels like something that originally played a larger role but got cut down in editing and the bits that were kept are only there to explain their fight.
cyanide4suicide
Neo Member
Loved the movie, it really adds to BvS and is a great origin story to Wonder Woman.
Gal Gadot is a damn fine woman too.
Gal Gadot is a damn fine woman too.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Huh? Ares admitted to guiding Dr. Poison in creating chemicals. There is nothing else that needs explanation here. It's just one of the things she was brewing up because she was being pushed to make bigger, better weapons.
Schnozberry
Member
Right, and his method was warfare, because Olympians were limited in how they could intervene in human affairs. They operated through influence mostly. Demi-gods like Wonder Woman and Hercules were not limited in this way.
It was in Ares best interest to prolong war to achieve his ultimate goal, and he wanted Diana to be the tool he used to exterminate mankind.
Schnozberry
Member
During the scene where he inhales the first pill, he is seen crushing a Luger Pistol in his bare hands. I thought it was pretty obvious what they did.
Good point. I totally forgot about the Luger.
I still think that entire sideplot could have been excised with nothing lost.
Also, I'm not crazy about the third act for all of the reasons already mentioned in the thread, but all I could think about when the German soldiers were pulling off their gas masks seemingly breaking out of Ares's spell was "What about World War II?"
TropicalFish
Member
I don't think they were broken out of Ares' spell. I mean, they saw a demigod battle a god. I'd be in a complete state of wonder and shock after witnessing the spectacle (and in such close proximity) as well. Not to mention happy I was even alive after all that.
rokkerkory
Member
Just got back. The chemistry with Gadot and Pine was awesome. Loved the intro to movie too showing her upbringing. Gadot's acting was pretty good with some rough spots but she IS WW now for me.
Good movie overall very much enjoyed it. Almost as much as Captain America.
Good movie overall very much enjoyed it. Almost as much as Captain America.
Schnozberry
Member
Originally in the comic books, World War II was where Diana met Steve Trevor. Perhaps it doesn't happen in this DC film timeline now? Personally, I think avoiding the Nazis and comparisons to what Marvel has done with them probably improved the movie. It also made the No Man's Land/Village sequence possible, which was easily the highlight of the film for me.
I didn't mind the Lutendorf/Dr. Poison focus as much as you did, because the film had to use them to give Steve Trevor agency and characterization. Without them his sacrifice doesn't mean as much, and the story of Diana's disappointment at the human politics of war doesn't materialize. Positives outweighed the negatives to me.
TDLink
Member
This movie was great...except for the big dumb fight with Ares at the end.
Could have been a true classic, but that generic CG anime battle that we've seen all too often now really kinda wrecks it and makes it merely a great superhero film. Rather than a great film full stop.
I know that might sound weird, but there was something powerful about Diana killing the German she thought was Ares...and he turned out not to be. It's extremely undercut by actual Ares immediately showing up. It really doesn't fit with the film prior to that point at all tbh. Rework that third act to remove him and this film is a masterpiece. Oh well.
The No Man's Land/Village Liberation was the best sequence in the film. A true fantastic scene of super heroism.
Could have been a true classic, but that generic CG anime battle that we've seen all too often now really kinda wrecks it and makes it merely a great superhero film. Rather than a great film full stop.
I know that might sound weird, but there was something powerful about Diana killing the German she thought was Ares...and he turned out not to be. It's extremely undercut by actual Ares immediately showing up. It really doesn't fit with the film prior to that point at all tbh. Rework that third act to remove him and this film is a masterpiece. Oh well.
The No Man's Land/Village Liberation was the best sequence in the film. A true fantastic scene of super heroism.
Yeah, the film kind of smothers its own message with that move. Diana realizing that war was a part of 'Man's World', and not Ares' influence, was great. But then the actual Ares shows up and his defeat results in everyone looking like they escaped mind control, then in the very next scene the war is over.
The fight is also just tonally poor. There's this idea of War vs. Love that is hashed out with a big dumb battle.
Did everyone forget the armistice scene?
The war was all but over. Paperwork just needed signing. Huston wanted to launch an attack so Germany would win. They stopped him. Diana then killed Ares.
The intent seems to be relief from the German soldiers that the war is over more than mind control. I mean it's not like soldiers back then really had s choice to fight or not.
But just minutes prior the German soldiers were committed to loading a plane with chemical weaponry. They were closing in on, and about to kill, Steve's buddies. But after the plane explodes, and Wonder Woman kills Ares, they all seem done with the war... because... ?
It's not like they all saw Ludendorff's body and thought "Welp, I quit". I guess they were happy to be alive, and I'm not saying it's unrealistic, just that it undermines the idea of Ares not being that cause of the conflict.
Because they're nothing left.
No plane, no leader, and they just saw two Gods fight. It's the official end for them.
I don't know, it struck me weirdly. It didn't feel like surrender - 'OK, we give up'. It felt like everyone was coming to their senses.
Joel Was Right
Member
Movie was okay, but the last battle took it a pitch down. Nothing as bad as MoS or BvS, but you can clearly see the Snyder influence in these films. When these films are story driven, they are good. The problem is how to portray action. With Wonder Woman, it was largely hand-to-hand combat, and the choreography was excellent. Same with Batman.
It was World War I. It was just like playing football with the enemy during Christmas.
Wow, just came back from the cinema to see this and I'm impressed mostly with the movie.
I thought the first 2 'acts' were excellent, with superb world building in both the Amazon world and the world war. I really liked the fact that they showed us many different types of people fighting in the war (Indians at the train station). It delivered the underlying message of hope very well. It's refreshing movie about actual heroism and the brutality of war instead of the typical fare from comic book movies.
The final act was little bit of a let down, although I was surprised at the reveal of who Ares actually was. The fight could have been done a lot better, but the rest of the movie redeems it for me. Why can't DC do a final fight scene right?
I guess Wonder Woman has kicked off the DCEU
I thought the first 2 'acts' were excellent, with superb world building in both the Amazon world and the world war. I really liked the fact that they showed us many different types of people fighting in the war (Indians at the train station). It delivered the underlying message of hope very well. It's refreshing movie about actual heroism and the brutality of war instead of the typical fare from comic book movies.
The final act was little bit of a let down, although I was surprised at the reveal of who Ares actually was. The fight could have been done a lot better, but the rest of the movie redeems it for me. Why can't DC do a final fight scene right?
I guess Wonder Woman has kicked off the DCEU
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Yeah the scenes where she's just fighting regular people is great. It's like the warehouse scene in BvS. But the super person on super person action these movies can't seem to get away from punching each other across the map over and over and hurling big things at each other. I know two gods punching each other over and over isn't gonna go anywhere until the Deus ex machina kicks in.
No issues here. Seems to be an hit or miss issue lately with the movie to lower resolution digital projection.
Ares pretty much says he wanted the armistice as it would lead to an even bigger war.
Joel Was Right
Member
It doesn't help when there are people who actively want these things, however. Superman Returns took the Donner approach yet was routinely criticised for not having "enough" action, but I contend that the action it did have was more entertaining and memorable than any of Snyder extremities thus far.
Aquaman howling on Batman's car doesn't give me confidence that'll change.
BronsonLee
Member
Diana even says that whatever Steve is about to do (she's still stunned from the explosions) to let her handle it
I think the intent was definitely "wow, we survived this giant apocalyptic scenario, our petty human struggles mean nothing, we are all part of the brotherhood of man."
But the fact that the movie moves very quickly from "Ares dead" to "everyone hug" to "WAR OVER!" definitely muddies that message. You're not thinking about the armistice talks from an hour ago, you're thinking about what immediately just happened on screen as a cause and effect. Particularly when Wonder Woman spent the entire movie hammering in the logic that, if you kill Ares, the war will stop.
It's weird for sure. Definitely one issue of many with the scripting/editing for the finale.
Just saw it with the waifu yesterday and damn, this movie is up there with my favorites. Gadot silenced the doubters for sure. Her chemistry with Pine was undeniable and Pine is underrated here, he killed this role. And the action scenes are what I imagined a comic book movie would be like, so good. The director definitely knew her craft. My early feeling from the trailer was that it had potential to be one of the best super hero flicks and it didn't disappoint. Loved it from beginning to end.
I thought the movie was really good.
Diana was like a 300 Spartan x100 in her fight scenes, which is a big compliment from me because I loved that movie. The no man's land battle was one of my favorite superhero combat scenes ever, if not the favorite.
I did think the last scene was corny, but not because of the soldiers giving up the fight after the battle. That part made sense to me, as in "Our last gasp plan just failed, and two gods just fucking obliterated the place, so maybe it's time to chill out." I just hate the trope where a character repeats the lines another character said earlier after coming to an epiphany. And the superhuman vs superhuman combat is played out, although the moment Ares molded on his suit of armor and crafted two huge fucking swords had me hyped. If only it had turned into another hand-to-hand combat fight at that point instead of a people getting thrown through buildings fight.
But I did like how Ares was more of a destructive muse egging on shitty humanity than someone who just mind-controls humans into fighting.
Diana was like a 300 Spartan x100 in her fight scenes, which is a big compliment from me because I loved that movie. The no man's land battle was one of my favorite superhero combat scenes ever, if not the favorite.
I did think the last scene was corny, but not because of the soldiers giving up the fight after the battle. That part made sense to me, as in "Our last gasp plan just failed, and two gods just fucking obliterated the place, so maybe it's time to chill out." I just hate the trope where a character repeats the lines another character said earlier after coming to an epiphany. And the superhuman vs superhuman combat is played out, although the moment Ares molded on his suit of armor and crafted two huge fucking swords had me hyped. If only it had turned into another hand-to-hand combat fight at that point instead of a people getting thrown through buildings fight.
But I did like how Ares was more of a destructive muse egging on shitty humanity than someone who just mind-controls humans into fighting.
Really enjoyed the movie. First act was my favorite but not put off by the third act as some.
Only dumb part for me is when Ares monologues to Diana that only a god can kill god.... He probably wins the battle if he didn't monologue since Diana thinks the sword is the key.
I'll be buying this on Blu Ray.
Only dumb part for me is when Ares monologues to Diana that only a god can kill god.... He probably wins the battle if he didn't monologue since Diana thinks the sword is the key.
I'll be buying this on Blu Ray.
elrechazado
Banned
Umm, it's established multiple times what they do before the fight. She literally explains they give him power when she first gives him one early in the movie.
Crushing the gun with his bare hand might have been a giveaway too.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Yea they definitely should not have put Ares in the movie or at least not have revealed who he was until the very very end. Him dying and WW2 still happening doesn't make sense.
He created a shitty Armistice which led to WW2. Like how IRL the shitty treatment of Germany post WW1 led to Hitler gaining support and power.
This isn't a complex film, y'all. It's inexcusable that you can't keep up with basic plot points that are over explained.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
I don't think there's anyone who didn't understand the movie. Putting Ares in really brought down the overall quality by having yet another run of the mill CGI last boss fight which everyone knew the outcome of, and ruining the initial theme of the movie
BronsonLee
Member
You take Ares out, Trevor can't die
...I like this actually
...I like this actually
You said that WW2 happening in the DCEU made no sense. That's a clear lack of understanding of the film.
And all of these films end like that. Even Civil
War descends into an over the top fight at the end. Why exactly is it a deal breaker now?
elrechazado
Banned
Do you normally not know if the hero will beat the villain in a super hero movie?
You originally said that the death of Ares means that WW2 happening makes no sense.
And now you're moving the goalposts after it was explained to you that you can't even follow the plot of a superhero blockbuster.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
It kind of doesn't because WW2 was a much more terrible war than WW1. Ares not being involved doesn't really make sense.
Firstly, the ending of civil war was a fight between Iron Man and Captain America, when was the last time a movie ended with two super heros fighting? And whoever said it was a deal breaker? That whole final act turned the movie from great to just good.
What? Like I said WW2 was much worse...Ares dying and WW2 happening like it did is kinda dumb. That's arguing semantics though.
No need to be so sensitive just because they fucked up the final act.
Okay, stay with me here.
1) WW1 was an awful war.
2) Ares created a terrible Armistice.
3) The armistice divided Germany between the Allies and made almost every German desperate and hungry.
4) Hitler exploited this to gain power.
5) He committed so many atrocities that the Allies were unable to look the other way and had to fight. Also he went for a walk and England got really offended.
3/4/5 happened in real life. This film posits that Ares set that groundwork. I don't know what you're not getting at this point. In this universe, Ares is responsible for Germany being fucked over and looking to Hitler to regain their glory.
Yes, he outright says that the armistice will lead to a bigger war later.
Not understanding the movie isn't "semantics."
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Yea, I also watched the movie.
1) A war where the largest genocide in history and weapons humanity never dreamt of were involved, and Ares wasn't there? Ok.
2) Why would WW2 even happen? Everyone seemed happy go lucky once Ares died at the end of WW.
Let me reiterate. IMO Ares being in this movie brought down its quality.
What's up with the condecention? Not like I killed anyone's dog here.
I'm not trying to be patronising, but I've explained how IRL a shitty armistice led to WW2 and how in the film Ares is responsible for said armistice. Regardless of whether you believe it, it's a fact that said armistice led to the real WW2.
Also joy that the war is over was then followed by twenty one years before WW2 started. And was before Germany realised they'd been sliced up like a fucking Pizza between the Allies.
The condescension is because it was really, really obviously explained to the audience that the Ares in the movie universe was acting behind the scenes to influence the actions of humanity, because humanity was perfectly capable of evil without him needing to brainwash anyone. That was literally the theme of the movie, that Diana can't magically fix humanity by slaying Ares. As one of the leaders of Britain, Ares negotiated the armistice that would eventually lead to Treaty of Versailles, which is considered by historians to be one of the important reasons behind Hitler's rise. Woodrow Wilson, the American president at the time, argued against inflicting such harsh terms on Germany for losing.
Are you perhaps just unaware of the actual history and links between WW1 and WW2? Because that would explain why you are befuddled regarding how the actions in the movie could lead to WW2 even without Ares still existing in the 1930s.
elrechazado
Banned
Everyone was celebrating the end of the war, as they did in real life, not knowing that the terms of the peace laid a horrible groundwork. As for the soldiers at the compound, they were just happy to be alive after watching two flying gods fight. The idea that everyone is magically happy because ares died is your own invention, and clearly not implied by the movie. It's also literally a theme thrown in your face by the movie that ares dying didn't end war or make humanity great.
People are just confused with you because you and others apparently didn't listen to any of the dialogue.