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[Buba Big Guns]

I'm not trying to be patronising, but I've explained how IRL a shitty armistice led to WW2 and how in the film Ares is responsible for said armistice. Regardless of whether you believe it, it's a fact that said armistice led to the real WW2.

Also joy that the war is over was then followed by twenty one years before WW2 started. And was before Germany realised they'd been sliced up like a fucking Pizza between the Allies.

I missed that line where Ares said he's directly responsible for the armistice. To me, that still doesn't really fully explain the scale of WW2 without Ares being there. But whatever is a bloody movie.

Also the movie made it out to be that the war was over once Ares died, not because the armistice was signed.

I don't need a history lesson lmao. The only reason I'm even discussing this is because I know full well what lead to the world wars.

 

[TyrantII]

I think the intent was definitely "wow, we survived this giant apocalyptic scenario, our petty human struggles mean nothing, we are all part of the brotherhood of man."

But the fact that the movie moves very quickly from "Ares dead" to "everyone hug" to "WAR OVER!" definitely muddies that message. You're not thinking about the armistice talks from an hour ago, you're thinking about what immediately just happened on screen as a cause and effect. Particularly when Wonder Woman spent the entire movie hammering in the logic that, if you kill Ares, the war will stop.

It's weird for sure. Definitely one issue of many with the scripting/editing for the finale.

I admit I missed the soldiers dropping their weapons and hugging, but are we sure they were the soldiers and not the workers.

The movie did establish the Germans were using slave labor in their front line factories. Small mention, but it was there and Diana even repeated it as a reason to rush no man's land.

 

[morningbus]

We've also had people wonder why Trevor didn't have an accent and why he didn't just land the plane.

This is the reason why phones should be banned from theaters.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

The condescension is because it was really, really obviously explained to the audience that the Ares in the movie universe was acting behind the scenes to influence the actions of humanity, because humanity was perfectly capable of evil without him needing to brainwash anyone. That was literally the theme of the movie, that Diana can't magically fix humanity by slaying Ares. As one of the leaders of Britain, Ares negotiated the armistice that would eventually lead to Treaty of Versailles, which is considered by historians to be one of the important reasons behind Hitler's rise. Woodrow Wilson, the American president at the time, argued against inflicting such harsh terms on Germany for losing.

Are you perhaps just unaware of the actual history and links between WW1 and WW2? Because that would explain why you are befuddled regarding how the actions in the movie could lead to WW2 even without Ares still existing in the 1930s.

Jesus fucking Christ...

 

[elrechazado]

I missed that line where Ares said he's directly responsible for the armistice. To me, that still doesn't really fully explain the scale of WW2 without Ares being there. But whatever is a bloody movie.

Also the movie made it out to be that the war was over once Ares died, not because the armistice was signed.

I don't need a history lesson lmao. The only reason I'm even discussing this is because I know full well what lead to the world wars.

It wasn't just a line though...ares was literally giving a speech to the war council about the armistice's importance earlier in the film. Over and over.

 

[Biggest-Geek-Ever]

It wasn't just a line though...ares was literally giving a speech to the war council about the armistice's importance earlier in the film. Over and over.

A speech that was getting ignored and/or shouted down until Diana walked in the room.

 

[Walter White Walker]

I missed that line where Ares said he's directly responsible for the armistice. To me, that still doesn't really fully explain the scale of WW2 without Ares being there. But whatever is a bloody movie.

Also the movie made it out to be that the war was over once Ares died, not because the armistice was signed.

I don't need a history lesson lmao. The only reason I'm even discussing this is because I know full well what lead to the world wars.

You do realize the IRL World War II happened without a Greek god being involved, yes? Real life explains the scope of WW 2 even within the context of a DECU movie.

 

[BronsonLee]

A speech that was getting ignored and/or shouted down until Diana walked in the room.

My headcanon on that is that Ares was being purposely ineffective for the most part

He's someone of repute, but incompetence would keep things going. Backing a shit armistice, backing Trevor's plan (that likely would've resulted in an international incident), etc

 

[TyrantII]

Let me reiterate. IMO Ares being in this movie brought down its quality.

Ares also only showed himself because he can't interfere directly in humanities affairs. He states the reason he revealed himself to Diana is because he though he could get her to join him and be his sword.

Diana's whole crisis is realizing that humanity was commiting these atrocities through their own free will, and are not the innocent pets of zeus that are just being corrupted by Ares. Her black and white world view was shattered.

 

[Quixzlizx]

My headcanon on that is that Ares was being purposely ineffective for the most part

He's someone of repute, but incompetence would keep things going. Backing a shit armistice, backing Trevor's plan (that likely would've resulted in an international incident), etc

He backed Trevor's plan because he wanted Diana to see the horrors of the Western Front and become disillusioned with humanity.

 

[Izayoi]

Wow, it looks like Marvel finally has some real competition. DC is beginning to understand the meaning of levity!

Really amazing performance by Gal, she was perfect (and arguably the most beautiful person on the face of the planet).

Other than a couple of cunts who were sitting behind us, this was one of the best experiences I've had at the cinema for a long time.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

It wasn't just a line though...ares was literally giving a speech to the war council about the armistice's importance earlier in the film. Over and over.

Why wasn't the armistice changed to be less harsh once Ares died? WW made it clear that he was corrupting the minds of men, so naturally it shouldn't have been implemented as it was once he was gone.

Again I hate discussing a super hero movie so deeply. My only point is Ares made the movie worse for me.

 

[BronsonLee]

He backed Trevor's plan because he wanted Diana to see the horrors of the Western Front and become disillusioned with humanity.

It could be for a lot of reasons, also Diana isn't exactly inconspicuous so it makes the likelihood of her causin' troubletroubletroubletroubletrouble even higher

 

[Quixzlizx]

Why wasn't the armistice changed to be less harsh once Ares died? WW made it clear that he was corrupting the minds of men, so naturally it shouldn't have been implemented as it was once he was gone.

Again I hate discussing a super hero movie so deeply. My only point is Ares made the movie worse for me.

The movie made it clear he WASN'T corrupting the minds of men. That's the point of the movie, that Diana thought he was, but he actually wasn't, so she couldn't solve the problems with humanity by killing him.

It could be for a lot of reasons, also Diana isn't exactly inconspicuous so it makes the likelihood of her causin' troubletroubletroubletroubletrouble even higher

It was for the reason I stated, because that's what Ares said in the movie.

PS NYC >>>>>>> Philly

 

[Buba Big Guns]

You do realize the IRL World War II happened without a Greek god being involved, yes? Real life explains the scope of WW 2 even within the context of a DECU movie.

Ares was literally shown to be corrupting Ludendorf and Dr Poison's minds, coupled with WW constantly saying the war was happening because Ares had corrupted the minds of men. This was reinforced by the fact that everyone seemed to become unbrainwashed once Ares died.

So logically it doesn't make sense if WW2 happened (like the way it did irl) in the DC universe if they guy corrupting everyone had already died.

 

[BronsonLee]

It was for the reason I stated, because that's what Ares said in the movie.

PS NYC >>>>>>> Philly

How does it feel to be wrong on one minor point and one incredibly major point because the best part of NYC is gettin' da fuck out

 

[Buba Big Guns]

The movie made it clear he WASN'T corrupting the minds of men. That is literally the point of the movie, that Diana thought he was, but he actually wasn't, so she couldn't solve the problems with humanity by killing him.

Thats not really my take of Ares. I would completely agree with you if he wasn't in the movie at all. The entire theme of the movie was muddied by him being involved.

 

[Einchy]

Thats not really my take of Ares. I would completely agree with you if he wasn't in the movie at all. The entire theme of the movie was muddied by him being involved.

Your take goes against everything that happens to WW and her whole character arc.

 

[Violater]

Wow, it looks like Marvel finally has some real competition. DC is beginning to understand the meaning of levity!

Really amazing performance by Gal, she was perfect (and arguably the most beautiful person on the face of the planet).

Other than a couple of cunts who were sitting behind us, this was one of the best experiences I've had at the cinema for a long time.

I wouldn't go that far.
I think the best part of the movie was the chemistry/banter between Gadot and Pine which is something that future films will unfortunately not have.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Ares was literally shown to be corrupting Ludendorf and Dr Poison's minds, coupled with WW constantly saying the war was happening because Ares had corrupted the minds of men. This was reinforced by the fact that everyone seemed to become unbrainwashed once Ares died.

So logically it doesn't make sense if WW2 happened (like the way it did irl) in the DC universe if they guy corrupting everyone had already died.

He wasn't corrupting them, he was given them ideas.

And Diana was *wrong* and that was the point.

 

[Sean C]

Ares was literally shown to be corrupting Ludendorf and Dr Poison's minds, coupled with WW constantly saying the war was happening because Ares had corrupted the minds of men. This was reinforced by the fact that everyone seemed to become unbrainwashed once Ares died.

So logically it doesn't make sense if WW2 happened (like the way it did irl) in the DC universe if they guy corrupting everyone had already died.

Neither Ludendorff nor Poison started the war.

Ares quite literally spells out for Diana that he doesn't make anybody do anything, he just provides ideas that people can either take or ignore. Which is why the armistice is happening even though he doesn't want the war to end.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Ares was literally shown to be corrupting Ludendorf and Dr Poison's minds, coupled with WW constantly saying the war was happening because Ares had corrupted the minds of men. This was reinforced by the fact that everyone seemed to become unbrainwashed once Ares died.

So logically it doesn't make sense if WW2 happened (like the way it did irl) in the DC universe if they guy corrupting everyone had already died.

He was literally shown to not be poisoning their minds though?

The movie was fairly explicit that Ares was only giving humanity a nudge to urges and evils that were already there, he didn't possess Dr Poison or Ludendorf and make them commit horrific crimes. He only wanted the armistice because he knew humanity wouldn't be able to keep it and each time the war gets more and more severe. And think of what comes next - when Ares isn't even there at all - in World War 2 and it...kinda proves him right?

 

[DeathyBoy]

He was literally shown to not be poisoning their minds though?

The movie was fairly explicit that Ares was only giving humanity a nudge to urges and evils that were already there, he didn't possess Dr Poison or Ludendorf and make them commit horrific crimes. He only wanted the armistice because he knew humanity wouldn't be able to keep it and each time the war gets more and more severe. And think of what comes next - when Ares isn't even there at all - in World War 2 and it...kinda proves him right?

I'm now imagining WW reacting to Vietnam and the post 9-11 Wars and her yelling "for fuck sake I killed Ares in 1918 and you're STIL having stupid incoherent wars." It's oddly amusing.

No wonder she didn't give a shit about Zod's invasion.

 

[Walter White Walker]

Ares was literally shown to be corrupting Ludendorf and Dr Poison's minds, coupled with WW constantly saying the war was happening because Ares had corrupted the minds of men. This was reinforced by the fact that everyone seemed to become unbrainwashed once Ares died.

So logically it doesn't make sense if WW2 happened (like the way it did irl) in the DC universe if they guy corrupting everyone had already died.

The movie clearly spelled out Ares wasn't brainwashing anyone. He was encouraging key people to engage in what comes naturally to humans - conflict. He helped Dr. Poison arrive at creating the gas but he didn't brainwash her to do it.
Also, WW kept saying Ares was corrupting the minds of all of humanity. She realized at the end he wasn't - she was wrong. Humans are naturally just shitty to each other far too often and killing Ares wouldn't do anything to change that. This was also spelled out in the movie.
It looked to me like the soldiers were happy to be alive after being at Ground Zero of a battle between two super beings tossing tanks, lightning, and other crap around. I'd be pretty damned relieved to be alive, too, if I were them.

 

[simtmb]

I saw this earlier. I quite liked the movie overall, but felt Gals performance was a little rough, Pine was great, some of the CG and the transitions were especially jarring, and the final third of the movie dragged it down a notch.

Enjoyable though, and well worth a watch but nothing too great.

 

[Izayoi]

I wouldn't go that far.
I think the best part of the movie was the chemistry/banter between Gadot and Pine which is something that future films will unfortunately not have.

Are you saying that it will never be possible for Gal to have good chemistry with any of her co-stars in the future?

There's a lot of potential here - if DC can stay on the track set up by this movie, they have a good chance of really giving Marvel a run for their money. All they have to do is take the opportunity and run with it.

I'm not saying that I have faith that they won't squander the whole thing, but this is the first time I've seen a DC cinematic universe movie and been legitimately entertained the whole way through.

 

[TDLink]

If you remove Ares from act three, there's no reason for Diana not to throw the plane into space. He's there to allow Steve to die heroically.

That's not true at all. Prior to Ares showing up she had resolved to no longer help Steve because she realized it wasn't Ares; Humans were inherently corrupt. Everything involving Steve's sacrifice could still happen. It's his choice. She could change her mind and come back as he's going to get in the plane, you could even still have the ears ringing scene, preventing her from understanding exactly what he's about to do. And you can still have her going god mode on all the random soldiers at the base, just like what already happens.

Or you know, just don't have Steve sacrifice himself. I mean it's a great moment but the movie also would have worked without his death, with Diana realizing men were corrupt but still worth protecting anyways. It would have worked either way.

It would be extremely easy to excise Ares from the film. And it'd be better for it. Not only have we seen this type of big dumb CG anime fight way too many times, it just flat out didn't fit what this specific film was for the previous 95% of it.

Hell, have the twist reveal that mustache man is Ares in a credits scene or something and let that linger for some other movie. But having him show up and fight is a blemish on this movie. It could have been better without it.

I don't think there's anyone who didn't understand the movie. Putting Ares in really brought down the overall quality by having yet another run of the mill CGI last boss fight which everyone knew the outcome of, and ruining the initial theme of the movie

Right this is exactly it.

 

[Superflat]

I think the best part of the movie was the chemistry/banter between Gadot and Pine which is something that future films will unfortunately not have.

The thought did cross my mind.

The next WW movie won't have some of the novel things from the first, namely her bright/naive outlook and great chemistry with Trevor which provided a lot of charm and humor.

But at this point I have a lot of faith and good will in Patty Jenkins. She's done justice to WW as a character and made her someone audiences wanted to root for. I can't wait to see her throw down in an American setting like Patty mentioned she wanted to do.

 

[SYNTAX182]

I just realized the sequel will be in modern times. It's gonna be cool how they tackle that. I quite like an origin story being based in the past then setting up the sequel in the future because you have that shift between settings and it gives the sequel much more room to work in a different feel. Kinda like Back to the Future 1 to 2.

 

[Spinluck]

I would've been totally ok if the 3rd act ended up with Diana killing the German dude and Steve telling her that people are just fucking shitty, and that they don't need Ares' influence to so demonstrate that. Then they proceed to to stop the plane in whatever way they do.

But instead this dude appears (as I expected) with a somewhat wacky twist, and comes out in full video game final boss mode. Felt a little out of place? That final fight sucked compared to the rest of the films action (or the middle parts of the film which were the best). The 3rd act reminded me too much of the stuff in the previous DCEU films.

These 3rd acts are becoming so routine in this genre. Can't remember the last one that I thought was really good.

Maybe Civil War.

 

[Earthanoid]

It would be extremely easy to excise Ares from the film. And it'd be better for it. Not only have we seen this type of big dumb CG anime fight way too many times, it just flat out didn't fit what this specific film was for the previous 95% of it.

I agree that Ares was kind of disappointing. When he first appeared I liked that he was kind of a ghost, sort of like an idea in the mind of humans that Wonder Woman couldn't kill.

Once that ideas gone I was hoping that the final battle would be an epic sword fight. When Ares formed the two swords I was getting hyped, but then he turned into Magneto and just started chucking things at her, followed by a psycho crusher. A well choreographed sword fight would've been a lot more memorable, heck even the sword fight gifs in this thread are more memorable.

I'm really hoping for better action choreography in the sequel. We got one or two good sequences but they were pretty short and mixed in with CG.

 

[Alienous]

They should have hedged their bets and ended the film with Steve Trevor seriously wounded.

It's another case of them damaging a potential movie franchise for the sake of the big team up movie.

Wounding Trevor would have allowed for a "So what happened to Steve", "He never woke up", "I'm sorry" if Wonder Woman was going to stay in modern times, or a sequel with him using a walking stick if they decided to make another movie with the two.

 

[Sean C]

And you can still have her going god mode on all the random soldiers at the base, just like what already happens.

You think the climax of the movie should have been Diana pummeling a bunch of random soldiers who pose no threat to her?

They should have hedged their bets and ended the film with Steve Trevor seriously wounded.

It's another case of them damaging a potential movie franchise for the sake of the big team up movie.

Wounding Trevor would have allowed for a "So what happened to Steve", "He never woke up", "I'm sorry" if Wonder Woman was going to stay in modern times, or a sequel with him using a walking stick if they decided to make another movie with the two.

They've already talked about doing a story in the modern age. Steve's sacrifice is vital to the story they told, I don't think killing him had anything to do with Justice League. It wouldn't matter if Steve had lived a few more decades, as Diana would still be available for JL.

 

[Violater]

Are you saying that it will never be possible for Gal to have good chemistry with any of her co-stars in the future?

There's a lot of potential here - if DC can stay on the track set up by this movie, they have a good chance of really giving Marvel a run for their money. All they have to do is take the opportunity and run with it.

I'm not saying that I have faith that they won't squander the whole thing, but this is the first time I've seen a DC cinematic universe movie and been legitimately entertained the whole way through.

No that's not what I'm saying, of course its possible for Afflek and Cavill to lighten up a little.
My bet is on Mamoa though.

 

[Alienous]

They've already talked about doing a story in the modern age. Steve's sacrifice is vital to the story they told, I don't think killing him had anything to do with Justice League. It wouldn't matter if Steve had lived a few more decades, as Diana would still be available for JL.

It would matter if he survived, because you'd be left with questions of what happened to the relationship in Justice League, which I don't think would be easy to ignore.

I think that's why they killed him anyway, because it doesn't serve the story otherwise, except maybe that it adds additional significance to the photo.

 

[TDLink]

You think the climax of the movie should have been Diana pummeling a bunch of random soldiers who pose no threat to her?

No. That already happens in the film, after the climax. Just like it would in a version without Ares.

The Climax is her killing the German she thought was Ares and realizing humans are just inherently corrupt.

That's actually -still- the climax. The entire film was leading up to it. Actual Ares showing up is an event that's overall separate from the actual plot of the rest of the film continuing and resolving (the gas and ending the war) solely so there can be a big dumb anime battle. The fact that the gas is destroyed by Steve while she's busy fighting this guy really just drives that home even more.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I really enjoyed seeing her smile throughout the movie at unexpected moments. I don't know whether she was acting or not, but she was clearly having fun.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I was thinking about this earlier today, but wouldn't the best way to convey the loss of these characters be to make the audience care about them as much as they do the protagonist?

Show Steve as a young, naive man. The mirror-image of Diana. Show us him having his heart broken and going through loss himself. Build him up to be a character to have his idealism stolen through the reality of life, of love and war. Then have Diana slowly undo that for him to only to ultimately be convinced of love again, and sacrifice himself to protect her.

The tragedy being that his sacrifice leads Diana down the same spiral of sorrow he went through earlier in the film.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I was thinking about this earlier today, but wouldn't the best way to convey the loss of these characters be to make the audience care about them as much as they do the protagonist?

Show Steve as a young, naive man. The mirror-image of Diana. Show us him having his heart broken and going through loss himself. Build him up to be a character to have his idealism stolen through the reality of life, of love and war. Then have Diana slowly undo that for him to only to ultimately be convinced of love again, and sacrifice himself to protect her.

The tragedy being that his sacrifice leads Diana down the same spiral of sorrow he went through earlier in the film.

I think showing Steve as s cynical guy who Diana gives hope, and watching him on the plane break down because he knows he has to do it but he's so fucking scared, was a genuinely gut wrenching arc.

They made each other better, and in doing so could never be together. That's some tearkerlong shit, and Pine is a far, far better actor than I thought.

 

[Superflat]

The long shot of Trevor in the plane, knowing he will die and leave everything is genuinely haunting and tragic. It's one of the most affecting death scenes I've seen in the genre.

 

[CloudyTuba]

People catch the references to Superman the Movie with the revolving door and the alley ambush? Very nice homage.

https://youtu.be/_XUj8g-ggEs

I love the original Superman so the multiple obvious homages in this movie tickled me quite a bit. The glasses, the revolving door, especially the alley scene. Got me smiling.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Watched it last night. Meh as fuck. By far the best of the DC movies but that's not saying much. Was pleasantly surprised in Gadots performance, she was great and had terrific chemistry with Pine. Story was garbage though, weak ass villains, and probably the worst final boss fight I can remember in a super hero movie. Does give me a little bit of faith for the JL movie though.

 

[Wingfan19]

The long shot of Trevor in the plane, knowing he will die and leave everything is genuinely haunting and tragic. It's one of the most affecting death scenes I've seen in the genre.

Yup, it's the one scene I keep thinking about how well Pine nailed it. The way he kept hesitating, looking back, then forward, it really hit me that it was hitting him that he was gonna die there.

 

[The Adder]

No. That already happens in the film, after the climax. Just like it would in a version without Ares.

The Climax is her killing the German she thought was Ares and realizing humans are just inherently corrupt.

That's actually -still- the climax. The entire film was leading up to it. Actual Ares showing up is an event that's overall separate from the actual plot of the rest of the film continuing and resolving (the gas and ending the war) solely so there can be a big dumb anime battle. The fact that the gas is destroyed by Steve while she's busy fighting this guy really just drives that home even more.

The entire point is that she can't stop the gas because she's busy fighting Ares. Otherwise she stops the gas at no great personal threat to herself or let's Steve die even though he doesn't have to.

 

[Joel Was Right]

People catch the references to Superman the Movie with the revolving door and the alley ambush? Very nice homage.

https://youtu.be/_XUj8g-ggEs

Paddy Jenkins gets it. Bryan Singer also gets it. Snyder by design chose to ignore this. Biggest mistake Warner Bros have made when it comes to this franchise.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Putting the love interest in the fridge is "part of the genre" though, right? Steve doesn't get a pass just for being more well developed than the fan service ragdoll hero development plot device we usually get. Not that it would matter 100 years later when Diana may or may not trying to be resisting Bruce Wayne's oh so many charms.

Spoiler

35% /s

 

[Alienous]

Paddy Jenkins gets it. Bryan Singer also gets it. Snyder by design chose to ignore this. Biggest mistake Warner Bros have made when it comes to this franchise.

Sure you don't get movies like Batman v Superman by living in the past, but you also don't get movies like Batman Begins.

I'd rather see an attempt at a reinvention than homages.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Paddy Jenkins gets it. Bryan Singer also gets it. Snyder by design chose to ignore this. Biggest mistake Warner Bros have made when it comes to this franchise.

It takes more than to have your movie pay homage. Singer did in the most boring way possible. No original thought went into Returns.

 

[TDLink]

The entire point is that she can't stop the gas because she's busy fighting Ares. Otherwise she stops the gas at no great personal threat to herself or let's Steve die even though he doesn't have to.

She was going to leave Steve and the others to do whatever they were going to do. She flat out tells Steve this. Because she realizes men are corrupt inherently and not from anything Ares is doing, upon killing who she thought was Ares. So she wouldn't have stopped the gas anyways. In the hypothetical Ares-less ending she'd resolve to help them anyways, but come to this decision too late to stop what happened. Or there could be a version of the movie that ends without Steve killing himself, which would also be okay.

Having Ares shows up undermines her character development and realization that she was naive and wrong. Instead it's barely a beat, even though the whole film was leading to it, and she was really right because Ares does show up and then she defeats him, and the war ends. And that's a lot less satisfying.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Sure you don't get movies like Batman v Superman by living in the past, but you also don't get movies like Batman Begins.

I'd rather see an attempt at a reinvention than homages.

It's not so much about homage than it is keeping the core characteristics intact. You don't change just for the sake of changing.

#BringBackTheWilliamsScore