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[falastini]

As Entropia already mentioned, you really should be using Healing Stream as resto. Strategic use of Mana Tide and a good amount of spirit/crit will keep you from going oom... also make sure your water shield is always up.

On the topic of resto shaman... I'm really disappointed with the current state we are in. With the recent buff to discipline priests, we are now ~20% behind everyone else. Our single target heals are pitifully weak in comparison to our counterparts, our mana efficiency is the worst, our mastery is highly situational, and we lack any meaningful cooldowns.

They need to do an entire revamp, starting with the antiquated totem structure. It has no place in today's game.

 

[dimb]

Tried Ele again out of boredom.

Still shit.

Thunderstorm is probably the lamest skill to get by choosing a talent specialization. A one time aoe that has a broken KB.

You can glyph out of knockback.

 

[Bisnic]

They need to do an entire revamp, starting with the antiquated totem structure. It has no place in today's game.

Totems floating around your character like our Water/Lightning shield?

 

[Einbroch]

Totems floating around your character like our Water/Lightning shield?

That's just insane, though. The buffs they give are too good to have permanently. It just needs to be reworked, maybe tied into abilities. Cast a nature spell (ES, LS, CL), 5% spell haste to all party members for 8 seconds. Cast a fire spell (FS, LB), 5% melee crit chance for 8 seconds.

Not saying the above idea is a good one, but having totems just on you all the time like a Paladin aura is just too powerful.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Shaman mechanics are fine, there is probably 3ish shaman in each raid and they do their jobs just fine and bring useful buffs for melee and casters.

 

[Bisnic]

Meh, i already have my totems up all the time for every fight i do, having them floating around would just save me 1 global cooldown at the beginning or another later if the boss ask us to move around a big room like the first boss of Lost City of Tolvir.

I guess it would be OP for PVP though, not that i really care about that in WoW.

 

[falastini]

Just get rid of buffs being associated with totems. Having a buff regulated to a static totem, when everybody else has a 100 yard aura that moves with the player is silly. Pick a few iconic shaman buffs and turn them into a cast or an aura. There's no need to provide a variety of mediocre versions of buffs... the utility class no longer exists or has a place in WoW today. Bliz made sure of that when they homogenized the buffs across all classes.

Totems should only be there for active effects (like searing totem) or specialized cooldown effects (like tremor totem/mana tide).

Once you gut out a majority of the totems, by removing the buff versions, add a few more cooldown-types for each spec.

eg.

Elemental... A wind totem that you can throw. Any mobs within 10 yards are sucked into the totem and detonate. 1 min CD

Enhance... A fire totem that causes your next 5 melee attacks to spread to nearby enemies. 1 min CD

Resto... An earth totem that reduces raid damage by 20% for 6 seconds... 2 min CD

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

God forbid positioning from actually mattering...

 

[falastini]

God forbid positioning from actually mattering...

You have two buffs.. they both provide the same exact stats, but one is a 40 yard aura that's static and one is a 100 yard aura that moves with the raid. Which one do you think is going to be used?

 

[charlequin]

That's just insane, though. The buffs they give are too good to have permanently.

They are? At this point every single shaman totem is a buff that other classes get without a physical object to repeatedly redrop (Windfury Totem is the same as Hunting Party and Improved Icy Talons), a short-effect spell like Tremor or Mana Tide that would work fine as a CD a la Bloodlust, a temporary pet that would work fine as a summoning spell a la Feral Spirits, or a stationary damage turret.

Shaman mechanics are fine

Shamans may or may not be fairly powered, but the mechanics themselves definitely need work, especially given how much the mechanics of other classes have improved.

 

[Einbroch]

They are? At this point every single shaman totem is a buff that other classes get without a physical object to repeatedly redrop (Windfury Totem is the same as Hunting Party and Improved Icy Talons), a short-effect spell like Tremor or Mana Tide that would work fine as a CD a la Bloodlust, a temporary pet that would work fine as a summoning spell a la Feral Spirits, or a stationary damage turret.

I mean in PVP. PVE, whatever, they can have it as it's just annoying to drop them.

 

[wonderdung]

Totems seem like a decent way to give Shamans a huge number of buffs, but only 4 at a time.

I've never played Shaman so while I'm sure it's annoying to drop totems all of the time, if that system goes away you have to either take away some of the buffs shamans give or come up with some exclusive aura system that could end up being similar to paladins.

But wouldn't this remove the only thing that makes the class distinctive?

And I don't think it's fair to say the mechanics haven't evolved. Isn't the totem set stuff they added a while ago a significant improvement? Raidwide totems alone are a huge (though obvious) step up from classic.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

You have two buffs.. they both provide the same exact stats, but one is a 40 yard aura that's static and one is a 100 yard aura that moves with the raid. Which one do you think is going to be used?

Then don't use those totems.

 

[unifin]

Totemic Wrath is 100 yard radius.

Strength of Earth has a wider radius than Horn of Winter or Battle Shout, and lasts longer although it's a static aura rather than a buff.

Wrath of Air is the only aura that could possibly drop off at any point in mobile fights, but chances are you have >1 if not 3 or more shaman in the raid group.

Totems are just fine. If you have to drop them it's a 1 second GCD, and you should have individual totems bound anyway so you don't have to drop all 4 every time if you don't want to.

Totems are also the least of shaman problems in PvP at the moment.

 

[J-Rzez]

This of course is entirely premised on the theory that Unholy DK SHOULD be overpowered vis a vis every other class solely because you play them. Blizzard doesn't balance by bringing other classes to the top because that's the worst idea ever. You just keep overreacting about how your class is "broken" based on your personal experience with your DPS being lower, which proves nothing about the class as a whole or how it relates to its viability. There's simply no evidence that the nerfs weren't deserved nor that they overreached their target (probably because you don't actually have a concept of what the target is other than you want your DPS to be as high as possible).

The mere fact that you can post in intelligible English doesn't mean your theories are logical or have any foundation. You don't even have any real evidence that Blizzard's "best team" is doing anything, you intentionally failed to identify any of these phantom A team members, or even who is working on the game right now.

You're just literally making things up, appending the word "fact" to the end of them and then saying "Blizzard sucks."

We'll just end this "you want your class to be OP" stuff quickly and painlessly for you: How many times now have I said that Pure-DPS classes should be doing 5% more DPS than hybrids? As /2 says, "ggkkbye".

We KNOW that key developers have moved onto Titan, other people here have even posted it before. That's it and that's all. Blizzard themselves stated that people "move on" as well, as people have stated here as well as I. That's all.

 

[falastini]

Then don't use those totems.

All the buffs are already covered on my raid. So your telling me to ignore our core mechanic? How does that make it good?

Aside from the outdated mobility and range on our buffs, name one other class that loses their buff when they need to activate an ability. Does a warrior lose his battle shout when he needs to fear some mobs with intimidating shout? No. Does a hunter lose hunting party when he activates rapid shot? No.

If I decide to help kite some mobs and drop an earth bind totem, guess what? I just lost whatever earth buff I was providing.

Totemic Wrath is 100 yard radius.

Strength of Earth has a wider radius than Horn of Winter or Battle Shout, and lasts longer although it's a static aura rather than a buff.

Horn of Winter has a larger radius then SoE.

TW is Elemental only, but I'll give you that one. Not just because it's our only 100 yd buff, but because the only other class that brings that buff is Demo locks. Most Warlocks want to spec Dest or Aff.

Totems are also the least of shaman problems in PvP at the moment.

Well if your talking from a PvP perspective you might be right. I'd imagine having the flexibility to drop different buffs in arenas might be useful. But I'm coming from a PvE perspective. That buff flexibility is useless in 25mans and even in 10mans.

 

[charlequin]

I mean in PVP. PVE, whatever, they can have it as it's just annoying to drop them.

Still don't see it. I still don't see why any of the Shaman buffs should be weaker than literally identical buffs provided by other classes.

Totems seem like a decent way to give Shamans a huge number of buffs, but only 4 at a time.

Well, if they turned them from a physical object into a floating spell-buff you could still have the "only one of each element" system (which I do think is a fun, interesting restriction) without the clunky physical-item element and the need to constantly be redropping them, etc.

But wouldn't this remove the only thing that makes the class distinctive?

What most of us would hope to see, I think, is something along the lines of the paladin mechanical redesign -- something that preserves the flavor of the class but deviates fairly significantly from the old way of working things.

And I don't think it's fair to say the mechanics haven't evolved.

They've definitely evolved, they just haven't evolved nearly as much as many other classes. Shamans have far more vestigial vanilla design left than any other class, I think.

Then don't use those totems.

That's ludicrous. You understand that this is in fact the exact complaint you were originally dismissing, right?

 

[Einbroch]

Because they have them...at the same time. Most only get one or two, max. Plus unkillable tremor, earthbind, and grounding totems? That's insane.

 

[Alex]

Totems should involve class gameplay, not long, passive buffs. Not with the way buffs have changed.

I don't think the buff system, as it is, really is even important anymore. It's just too marginalized outside of a few, obnoxious outliers (+3% dmg, etc). Wouldn't mind seeing it all baked in and only interesting, more active buffs like Heroism, Dark Intent, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide, etc focused on.

 

[J-Rzez]

Love me some "totem stomping time". Having macros for the pet to stomp them was always a good time.

The issue with Totems are they're flawed in how faster paced things are in pvp, but, they're too iconic and just really a cool thought on paper to get rid of. They need to stay as they are unfortunately because you don't want to go too far off of concept.

 

[Angry Grimace]

We'll just end this "you want your class to be OP" stuff quickly and painlessly for you: How many times now have I said that Pure-DPS classes should be doing 5% more DPS than hybrids? As /2 says, "ggkkbye".

Because this isn't an incredibly obvious attempt to be dismissive and avoid the issue.

You'll notice you failed to answer the question at all, which is why you think Unholy's DPS is being lowered more than it appropriately should be. Your answers so far are half-baked attempts at being funny or outright attempting to just change the subject. Whether you thought pure-DPS classes should be higher or lower than DK's is only tangentially related to the topic and doesn't actually provide any evidence of where DK DPS is right now.

We KNOW that key developers have moved onto Titan, other people here have even posted it before. That's it and that's all. Blizzard themselves stated that people "move on" as well, as people have stated here as well as I. That's all.

Oh we do? You have a source for this? You couldn't name these developers of course, because your assertion is based entirely on conjecture since, you know, you don't actually know who does what at Blizzard. Again, because you're just making things up. You can't expect people to not accuse you of just being biased and shooting from the cuff when you make completely out of left field assertions with no factual basis other than you said so.

 

[J-Rzez]

Because this isn't an incredibly obvious attempt to be dismissive and avoid the issue.

You'll notice you failed to answer the question at all, which is why you think Unholy's DPS is being lowered more than it appropriately should be. Your answers so far are half-baked attempts at being funny or outright attempting to just change the subject. Whether you thought pure-DPS classes should be higher or lower than DK's is only tangentially related to the topic and doesn't actually provide any evidence of where DK DPS is right now.

Oh we do? You have a source for this? You couldn't name these developers of course, because your assertion is based entirely on conjecture since, you know, you don't actually know who does what at Blizzard. Again, because you're just making things up. You can't expect people to not accuse you of just being biased and shooting from the cuff when you make completely out of left field assertions with no factual basis other than you said so.

Now you're coming across that you just want to "hear yourself speak". Listen, I said how my DPS dropped, I'm charting well below all other DPS in every fight other than Cho'gal where I sit the boss. I out-gear all other DPS to boot. I know my class, I nail my "rotations", I soak whenever I can, I'm min-maxed. What more do you want? I see others complaining that they lost less DPS, others more, it's all over the forums. Unless they're possibly balanced at BiS, which they shouldn't be since that affects the least amount of people possible, then these changes are a joke since I myself can confirm from my experience that I lost THAT MUCH DPS, and that I'm charting well below other DPS that I used to beat. I honestly have no idea what you want me to say here, I told you everything...

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/wow_lead_designer_leaves_work_unannounced_blizzard_mmo

That's one. On a quick search. Others have posted more than I did about people leaving to work on Titan. Maybe they have the links on hand, I'm not looking for more.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Now you're coming across that you just want to "hear yourself speak". Listen, I said how my DPS dropped, I'm charting well below all other DPS in every fight other than Cho'gal where I sit the boss. I out-gear all other DPS to boot. I know my class, I nail my "rotations", I soak whenever I can, I'm min-maxed. What more do you want? I see others complaining that they lost less DPS, others more, it's all over the forums. Unless they're possibly balanced at BiS, which they shouldn't be since that affects the least amount of people possible, then these changes are a joke since I myself can confirm from my experience that I lost THAT MUCH DPS, and that I'm charting well below other DPS that I used to beat. I honestly have no idea what you want me to say here, I told you everything...

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/wow_lead_designer_leaves_work_unannounced_blizzard_mmo

That's one. On a quick search. Others have posted more than I did about people leaving to work on Titan. Maybe they have the links on hand, I'm not looking for more.

Ad hominem attacks on how I sound (which I don't care about) don't actually answer the question, which is why DK DPS is now too low comparable to other classes and wasn't too high before.

The fact that you "lost DPS" has no bearing on whether that was appropriate or not. And you can save the argument that all of the WoL logs are people with BiS, because that is a rubbish argument that has no basis in reality.

And I don't really know what to tell you if you're outright refusing to even attempt to look up some kind of foundational basis for your argument.

 

[J-Rzez]

Ad hominem attacks on how I sound (which I don't care about) don't actually answer the question, which is why DK DPS is now too low comparable to other classes and wasn't too high before.

The fact that you "lost DPS" has no bearing on whether that was appropriate or not. And you can save the argument that all of the WoL logs are people with BiS, because that is a rubbish argument that has no basis in reality.

And I don't really know what to tell you if you're outright refusing to even attempt to look up some kind of foundational basis for your argument.

I never-ever once said that the old DPS was fine. It needed to be in-line more, which is fine, but they went overboard. That's it and that's all. They went overboard and basically broke the class, period.

Sure, we needed a nerf, but in typical bullshit blizzard fashion, they nerfed us into oblivion and will slowly buff us over the next year. Until then we suffer.

Done.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I never-ever once said that the old DPS was fine. It needed to be in-line more, which is fine, but they went overboard. That's it and that's all. They went overboard and basically broke the class, period.



Done.

So in sum, you don't actually have any reason to believe this beyond you feel weaker and "my DPS is lower."

How does that prove your DPS isn't where it's supposed to be or that the class is "broken" or that DK DPS wasn't too high immediately after the patch?

The obvious answer is that it doesn't and the evidence demonstrates you're just taking out your personal frustrations by overreacting.

 

[J-Rzez]

So in sum, you don't actually have any reason to believe this beyond you feel weaker and "my DPS is lower."

How does that prove your DPS isn't where it's supposed to be or that the class is "broken" or that DK DPS wasn't too high immediately after the patch?

The obvious answer is that it doesn't and the evidence demonstrates you're just taking out your personal frustrations by overreacting.

I have no idea what you're getting at here. I was complaining my dps was crushed, which it was. My DPS is significantly behind other dps that I raid with. Other DK's are complaining about it big time too.

Direct relation: DPS is weaker in PVP. DA was supposed to help us to stop being kited, and an aiding factor in us getting further nerfed dmg wise. Then, DA gets nerfed, DK's are being kited around again. DPS that's not up to par in PVE and PVP, Mobility promised taken away basically in PVP. DMG not reverted despite our mobility nerfed already. I'd say that's pretty broken.

 

[Rokam]

Anyone know a good spot to farm Frostweave, for a non-tailor? I was thinking doing heroics or something would yield more, but it didn't seem like it.

 

[etiolate]

That's just insane, though. The buffs they give are too good to have permanently. It just needs to be reworked, maybe tied into abilities. Cast a nature spell (ES, LS, CL), 5% spell haste to all party members for 8 seconds. Cast a fire spell (FS, LB), 5% melee crit chance for 8 seconds.

Not saying the above idea is a good one, but having totems just on you all the time like a Paladin aura is just too powerful.

Uh the buffs totems give are the same buffs other classes give, except they only last five minutes and don't move with the players.

edit: And in PVP, the situation is even worse as I rarely have Strength of Earth/Stoneskin or Windury/WoA up due to needing those elements for defensive CDs. No other class has to forego their class buffs in order to use their other spells.

 

[Mojojo]

Anyone know a good spot to farm Frostweave, for a non-tailor? I was thinking doing heroics or something would yield more, but it didn't seem like it.

I got a good chunk when i was doing the dailies at the argent tournament in Icecrown (when you have to kill many cult of the damned).. but not sure it wields the best result/time as I did those for a long time, trying to get heirloom armors rewards...

 

[NameGenerated]

Anyone know a good spot to farm Frostweave, for a non-tailor? I was thinking doing heroics or something would yield more, but it didn't seem like it.

Onslaught Harbor in Icecrown gives a pretty good amount of Frostweave.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Anyone know a good spot to farm Frostweave, for a non-tailor? I was thinking doing heroics or something would yield more, but it didn't seem like it.

see if any of these methods work well for you http://www.wowhead.com/item=33470#comments:80

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Gonna buy level 70 gladiator gear on my enhance shaman because it's so cheap. Is there any reason to take 2.60 mace over the 2.60 fist or axe?

Looks like fist and axe is the cheapest combo.

 

[burgerdog]

Any laptop experts here? I'm interested in buying:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ETLO6W/?tag=neogaf0e-20

if it's able to handle wow in any capacity. I'll only be using it to play wow when I'm out of town so I don't mind playing at low settings while on the move.

 

[Weenerz]

I'm sure it would run WoW, but with only a dual core amd processor and an ati 6310, it would be pretty ugly at the lowest setting.

 

[burgerdog]

I'm sure it would run WoW, but with only a dual core amd processor and an ati 6310, it would be pretty ugly at the lowest setting.

I don't mind. I have a desktop that gets 60fps with everything at ultra. I raid once a week and need it in case I am not home that day. I just need the game to be playable, I can stomach the low ugly settings.

 

[charlequin]

I don't think the buff system, as it is, really is even important anymore. It's just too marginalized outside of a few, obnoxious outliers (+3% dmg, etc). Wouldn't mind seeing it all baked in and only interesting, more active buffs like Heroism, Dark Intent, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide, etc focused on.

I agree entirely. Cooldowns are interesting gameplay: knowing when to use them and how to coordinate them with the group is tactically interesting. Consumables, within reason, are also interesting, because it requires people to properly prepare for what are intended to be difficult encounters.

Buffs, in the form they take in WoW nowadays, are not interesting; they're busywork and a small bit of party-juggling to get them to line up correctly.

 

[Alex]

Now they're going to nerf Single Minded Fury after our Warriros went out and got one handers after the mastery nerf (which prior to that they went out and got mastery gear/reforged to mastery then had to revert all back) . Of course that nerf will bring it back to where it was pre-4.0.6 where they thought it was too low :lol It's another Mind Sear collateral effect.

This is getting old now, the see-saw. It's being treated like a permanent beta now where they just change stats, gear value, etc downward on the fly. They've never done nonsense like this before, their development team seems to have gotten more inept and more ambitious all at once

While I really like the concept of constant, live tweaks in concept I most certainly do not when they have this kind of effect on the classes. I don't really give a damn about the numbers, I care about our DPS taking gear, spending points, money, etc on equipment that's made into trash a day or two later.

Greg Street should consider filing a job app with Square Enix at this rate. You know, you do some good, you make your mark, then you fuck everything up and bring all your projects down because you've clearly lost your mind. That's the S-E hierarchy I believe.

PS: As Enhancement, I still want to take caster weapons over physical for my mainhand. Herp, derp, derp is the phrase that fits this best, I believe. I cannot believe this is still the fact after the beta then the PTR, it's unreal, they can't fix anything.

 

[J-Rzez]

Yeah, i'm afraid to go to mmo-c to see more crazy "balancing fixes" now. They're going crazy with them now, more than ever before.

They're just in a bad position right now with how many people are upset with the patch and the hot-fixes, and they're scrambling.

 

[Alex]

Our Warriors have ceased to give a damn about numbers, they're just sick of all their equipment turning to shit 24 hours after picking it up.

"Mastery sucks guys"

"Wait Mastery rocks now!"

"JK it sucks again"

"You know how you liked 2H before? Guess what now they suck"

"It's ok though, 1H is great!"

"We like fucking with you, so now 1H sucks again, SURPRISE"

"We might look at your AoE in the future*"

*

Spoiler

Then nerf it below what it was two days later lololoolololol

The time line for this is less than a week.

They need a staff shakeup in regards to system design. Rest of the game is peachy but for system design they're in a rut, and they're unsure how to get out of the hole they've dug.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Now they're going to nerf Single Minded Fury after our Warriros went out and got one handers after the mastery nerf (which prior to that they went out and got mastery gear/reforged to mastery then had to revert all back) . Of course that nerf will bring it back to where it was pre-4.0.6 where they thought it was too low :lol It's another Mind Sear collateral effect.

This is getting old now, the see-saw. It's being treated like a permanent beta now where they just change stats, gear value, etc downward on the fly. They've never done nonsense like this before, their development team seems to have gotten more inept and more ambitious all at once

While I really like the concept of constant, live tweaks in concept I most certainly do not when they have this kind of effect on the classes. I don't really give a damn about the numbers, I care about our DPS taking gear, spending points, money, etc on equipment that's made into trash a day or two later.

Greg Street should consider filing a job app with Square Enix at this rate. You know, you do some good, you make your mark, then you fuck everything up and bring all your projects down because you've clearly lost your mind. That's the S-E hierarchy I believe.

PS: As Enhancement, I still want to take caster weapons over physical for my mainhand. Herp, derp, derp is the phrase that fits this best, I believe. I cannot believe this is still the fact after the beta then the PTR, it's unreal, they can't fix anything.

No offense, but was perfectly predictable that if SMF negated the nerf they just put in, it was also going to get nerfed down to TG's level. I mean, we know what the design intent of that nerf was in the first place. I don't buy the concept that their gear is "shit" and they have to go out and get new gear. There really never has been enough variation in gear to make that argument ever particularly viable.

This isn't even really a nerf on the level of say, 4.0.3 --> 6 affliction lock, which basically lost 15% haste (the best secondary stat) with no compensation at all.

See, now there's a spec and class that has a valid design complaint: I don't know that affliction needs buffs, but I do know it needs something compelling to use soul shards on. Right now shards have no synergistic use for everyone that's not destruction. I mean, Affliction is basically using the shards on Soul Fire just like Destro and Demo, but Destro actually gets some kind of gameplay mechanic going when it does so.

I agree entirely. Cooldowns are interesting gameplay: knowing when to use them and how to coordinate them with the group is tactically interesting. Consumables, within reason, are also interesting, because it requires people to properly prepare for what are intended to be difficult encounters.

Buffs, in the form they take in WoW nowadays, are not interesting; they're busywork and a small bit of party-juggling to get them to line up correctly.

Without bringing buffs, individual players would feel no more powerful in a raid group than in a regular group and there's no real synergy beyond good teamwork. I can't really see how not having buffs is more compelling than having them.

I mean, you could say they used to be more "interesting" so to speak, but that kind of gameplay involved having true support classes, like TBC era Shadow Priests i.e, mana batteries. That wasn't exactly fun for the priests or the raid leader than had to shoehorn one in.

 

[johnsmith]

Latest simcraft numbers with the nerfs. Yeah, i can live with this. That 10% shadow damage nerf isn't that bad when you consider almost every other top dps spec got nerfed at the same time. Hunters have some hurt coming though. and ouch for moonkin and dks.

 

[TheExodu5]

Without buffs, everyone would feel like Rogues do. =\

edit: rogues at the bottom? what the fuck.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Latest simcraft numbers with the nerfs. Yeah, i can live with this. That 10% shadow damage nerf isn't that bad when you consider almost every other top dps spec got nerfed at the same time. Hunters have some hurt coming though. and ouch for moonkin and dks.

Where's the source?
DK below shaman? lol.

 

[J-Rzez]

Our Warriors have ceased to give a damn about numbers, they're just sick of all their equipment turning to shit 24 hours after picking it up.
They need a staff shakeup in regards to system design. Rest of the game is peachy but for system design they're in a rut, and they're unsure how to get out of the hole they've dug.

Just don't go to mmoc and play the game lol. Go try out the open Rift beta starting tomorrow, and hope they fix WoW in the meanwhile. I'm in the same boat, going for Haste/Crit gear the whole while, passing on Mastery, now it's Haste -> Mastery -> Crit. Not to mention the:

-20% dmg
-20% dmg
-25% dmg
-5% primary stat
-15% dmg
-20% more dmg... All within a week. lol.

Where's the source?
DK below shaman? lol.

I wasn't making it up that the nerfs were nuts. And this is with a heavy reliance on no-limit BiS gear. Not to mention how fight mechanics play out against melee the majority of the time.

Without buffs, everyone would feel like Rogues do. =\

edit: rogues at the bottom? what the fuck.

It's a shame, but that's for one reason - PVP.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Latest simcraft numbers with the nerfs. Yeah, i can live with this. That 10% shadow damage nerf isn't that bad when you consider almost every other top dps spec got nerfed at the same time. Hunters have some hurt coming though. and ouch for moonkin and dks.

Just remember that Simcraft turns out essentially impossible results that have very little meaning. It does simulations based on impossible rotation and cooldown tightness and sims everyone in full 372s on encounters which apparently are Patchwerk. Frankly, I don't think those results reflect what actual logs of encounters have been showing and in the end, the differences aren't all that high.

 

[johnsmith]

Where's the source?
DK below shaman? lol.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/406-3/Raid_T11_372.html


Yeah, yeah, simulationcraft isn't perfect, but it's still a good tool.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Just don't go to mmoc and play the game lol. Go try out the open Rift beta starting tomorrow, and hope they fix WoW in the meanwhile. I'm in the same boat, going for Haste/Crit gear the whole while, passing on Mastery, now it's Haste -> Mastery -> Crit. Not to mention the:

-20% dmg
-20% dmg
-25% dmg
-5% primary stat
-15% dmg
-20% more dmg... All within a week. lol.



I wasn't making it up that the nerfs were nuts. And this is with a heavy reliance on no-limit BiS gear. Not to mention how fight mechanics play out against melee the majority of the time.



It's a shame, but that's for one reason - PVP.

No offense, but this chart doesn't prove you right, it proves you wrong; it's showing DK's near the top-middle for hybrid classes. So unless your argument Shamans don't "deserve" to be 200 dps higher than Death Knights (at an avg. of 27000), I don't see how you think this makes you correct.

On what grounds should DKs be at the same range as Hunters and Warlocks? Even then, the degree of separation between Unholy and Destro isn't that high, it's less than 5%.

(MM is an outlier on that chart).

I fail to see anything wrong with it, and as usual the bottom of the chart is cut off.

 

[Alex]

The actual numbers are good, they're doing a good job on numbers when all is said and done for all but a few random outliers it's a couple % of difference. (I believe the first MM entry is basically an impossible scenario, isn't it?).

Mage is clearly in need of some polish though, ick. I think arcane is only up there due to the shard of woe pre-nerf. They probably won't get much polish though, because again, PvP > PvE and everyone HATES Mages guts in PvP (myself included).

Melee should probably roll a little higher than caster by default if they continue this shit though, this tier has been pretty gd obnoxious for melee.

Mostly I'm just sick of the back and forth on live with changing gear and priorities and reforging and regemming and ugh.

Again, all for the pursuit of balance, just wish they would be less insane with what they put a live game through.

 

[johnsmith]

Here's the whole chart.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

No offense, but this chart doesn't prove you right, it proves you wrong; it's showing DK's near the top-middle for hybrid classes. So unless your argument Shamans don't "deserve" to be 200 dps higher than Death Knights (at an avg. of 27000), I don't see how you think this makes you correct.

On what grounds should DKs be at the same range as Hunters and Warlocks? Even then, the degree of separation between Unholy and Destro isn't that high, it's less than 5%.

(MM is an outlier on that chart).

I fail to see anything wrong with it, and as usual the bottom of the chart is cut off.

Isn't his point "over doing it" ?

Considering 1 viable or best spec only, DK and Druid went from near top to the bottom two classes.

Priest, Pladin, and Shaman were raised above them. Ret being the 3rd best over all.

Why nerf Dk so much when all of those classes can be higher?