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[Alex]

Yeah, Shadow Priests and DK's are great examples. Shadow Priests make me laugh though. "Guys, Mind Sear is too weak, so we're gonna buff it, then a week later we're going to take it all the way back in a collateral nerf we never put any thought in" :lol.

Warriors make my skin crawl though. Mastery buffed to be prime stat, nerfed to useless a few days later. Titan's Grip no longer the prime DPS setup, now one handers are favored. Seriously, on live servers, changes like this are being made, where people are hosing their time into this gear and into raiding?

Really, it's time for a new systems lead or director or whatever their hierarchy calls for. They're completely lost in a way that they've never been before, for all of the good they've done in getting numbers to be pretty good for most things, they've trashed the joint and made the game a living hell at times just to participate in.

 

[J-Rzez]

As long as the game is sharing PvP and PvE at the same time, it's impossible to balance the game.

They need to make abilities in duo of both, but they're too lazy, that's all. They want you to honestly think it's because they think people are illiterate and don't want to read tool-tips on said abilities? But it's clearly evident what the answer is here. It'd take a solid effort on their part, something they don't want to, or perhaps can't do without their A-team on the game.

Honestly, they should have a 4th PVP tree.

It really blows for specifically DK's and Wars. They keep messing with gear, and not just stats which while a pain to re-gem and reforge, sometimes they call for a change from a 2H weapon to DW 1h for example. What are you going to do now that you blew all your points or rolls on the 2H and now you passed on those 1H weapons?

 

[Fragamemnon]

It's hilarious, I respec'd out of Light of Dawn after the hotfix yesterday and now have to respec back in since it is apparently working through Beacon again.

Doing this on live servers is madness. I understand why they are doing it this way-their change management process favors large patches, not small tweaks-but it looks pretty darn amateur.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Call me crazy, but I miss attunements personally. Perhaps not the old Ony type stuff, but I thought stuff like Kara was kinda cool.




If you played a DK, your grandchildren would feel the pain you feel now. I mean, they completely crushed the class in a matter of 24-hours post patch. Even when reforging at patch, still down 2-3k dps. Then they threw down another layer of HEAVY hot-nerfs because DK's while normalized in PVE, were OP in PVP due to near perma hand of freedom, and even AFTER those nerfs which crushed PVE down further, they nerfed the damned mobility talent "Death's Advance" and didn't revert the dmg nerfs.

Balancing has been completely thrown out the window here, things are a disaster in both PVE and PVP. And there's yet more hotfixes rolling out everyday now, most done without rhyme or reason. It's insane. It's like they just don't know what to do and just nerfing and buffing things are random.

Best was all the talk of "we don't want people getting blown up in PVP, battles should last longer with the added HP and resi changes".... yet people are getting blown up and global'd.

The damage nerfs weren't for PvP (the hotfix ones)

 

[Alex]

I'll tell you, it's made me appreciate being a Shaman for a change. Shaman will wind up on top through sheer attrition. The landscape of the game will be a smoldering crater with a lone Shaman that survived by making a bunker out of his totems.

 

[J-Rzez]

The damage nerfs weren't for PvP (the hotfix ones)

They were for "both" PVE and PVP... mainly, PVP, as even with reforging DK's were pulling less DPS, and basically normalized swaying the top 5 of all class/spec based on different fights and their mechanics. You couldn't peel a DK off you in PVP, mage and rogue teams were dying, so they went after their pets (hard to control) and DC damage (the main dump, and most dmg in pvp at times), then they went after Death's Advance because they couldn't possibly nerf their dmg any more. This next hot-nerf of dmg just crushed them. There's no sticking up for blizzard here, as they're just completely lost with all the wild-random nerfs/buffs getting thrown out there in hotfixes.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They were for "both" PVE and PVP... mainly, PVP, as even with reforging DK's were pulling less DPS, and basically normalized swaying the top 5 of all class/spec based on different fights and their mechanics. You couldn't peel a DK off you in PVP, mage and rogue teams were dying, so they went after their pets (hard to control) and DC damage (the main dump, and most dmg in pvp at times), then they went after Death's Advance because they couldn't possibly nerf their dmg any more. This next hot-nerf of dmg just crushed them. There's no sticking up for blizzard here, as they're just completely lost with all the wild-random nerfs/buffs getting thrown out there in hotfixes.

I believe the developers more than I believe you because you have a history of stating things which you're basing on speculation as being based on fact.

There's evidence to support that their PvE damage was still very high; logs I've read showed Unholy still on top of the DPS charts, and I would also base that on personal experience and talking to other non-biased players. They were still doing a a lot more damage than comparable hybrid classes because Dreadblade was more of a compensation than a lot of people assumed it was.

 

[Alex]

Really odd question, I'm unsure how some of these stat climbs work. I know mastery rating isn't done by flat points, but I'm not sure if it's also done by hidden subpercents or just set little break throughs depending on the value of your mastery.

What I mean is I'm at 39% mastery, for example, and I know if I throw on a couple of points it'll raise to 40%, or is it already counting it as like 39.95% in the background and just not telling me.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Really odd question, I'm unsure how some of these stat climbs work. I know mastery rating isn't done by flat points, but I'm not sure if it's also done by hidden subpercents or just set little break throughs depending on the value of your mastery.

What I mean is I'm at 39% mastery, for example, and I know if I throw on a couple of points it'll raise to 40%, or is it already counting it as like 39.95% in the background and just not telling me.

They said around launch that it does count smaller percentage points than it shows, just like expertise does.

The only stats that get "rounded" are inherited hit that pets get from their masters.

 

[Alex]

Ah, thanks a lot. No more sulking over that 5 mastery rating!

 

[funkmastergeneral]

Just came across this post on the official forums...lol

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2065787710#4

While these changes were up on PTR, we tend to get limited testing - particularly when there isn't new raid content to test - and the PTR is often of limited value for PvP testing. While we appreciate the efforts of the players who participated and sent us feedback, it’s still a relatively small sample size compared to the millions of players who experience the changes when they actually go live. Deploying quick fixes, especially nerfs, isn’t always popular among players, but when they're possible, we think it’s a better course of action in the long run than letting balance problems persist. We’ll continue to monitor these and other class issues and periodically step in as necessary.

What's the point of having a PTR if you don't trust their testing?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Any tanks wearing a reforged
http://www.wowhead.com/item=55058
?
Wondering how much of that ridiculous expertise amount can be reforged to something useful like mastery

Was kinda thinking about making it, but the survival stats aren't as good as the justice point piece, which is beyond disappointing. Back in LK I remember the blacksmith titansteel gear being a damn good entry piece for raiding. Sucks that this piece doesn't seem to be worth the hassle.

 

[Dresden]

I'll tell you, it's made me appreciate being a Shaman for a change. Shaman will wind up on top through sheer attrition. The landscape of the game will be a smoldering crater with a lone Shaman that survived by making a bunker out of his totems.

I'm pretty sure all totems will eventually go the way of tremor. Temporary buffs with cooldowns for situational uses. Stuff like Strength of Earth will just become passives.

Haven't logged on in weeks, but I forgot to cancel the subscription. >.>

 

[Angry Grimace]

Just came across this post on the official forums...lol

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2065787710#4



What's the point of having a PTR if you don't trust their testing?

Well, it's not that they don't trust their testing, it's that the PTR is mostly to look for things that just don't work, like you try to cast Icy Touch and your character dies or something that's a crippling bug or something.

Any tanks wearing a reforged
http://www.wowhead.com/item=55058
?
Wondering how much of that ridiculous expertise amount can be reforged to something useful like mastery

Was kinda thinking about making it, but the survival stats aren't as good as the justice point piece, which is beyond disappointing. Back in LK I remember the blacksmith titansteel gear being a damn good entry piece for raiding. Sucks that this piece doesn't seem to be worth the hassle.

Expertise is a decent tank stat. It's not the best one ever, but it's not like you're walking around with Crit or something. It's just that the JP one happens to be better partially just because of the relative values of mastery.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Me and a friend got bored, so we decided to do 10 man ulduar achievements for the drake. Did it with random people from trade chat. Only wiped two times on Alone in the darkness, took like 30 mins i think for the full run. Then went on to kill algalon is 30 seconds. Good times.

 

[sprsk]

Just came across this post on the official forums...lol

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2065787710#4



What's the point of having a PTR if you don't trust their testing?

I believe he is saying that there aren't enough people playing on PTR, especially for minor patches like this one.

 

[Alex]

Friend already did his Warrior testing, found that basically Single Minded Fury (1H's) cancels out the nerf entirely.

So which leads to the oft stated, very obvious conclusion yet again; Titan's Grip should have never existed. You cannot balance PvE and PvP on the same trees as is, you can especially not do so when you have a class that is wielding two 2H's and can use them both in a single attack.

Titan's Grip would be awesome if they did what they should do made a fourth or repurposed third PvP specific tree, ie; where you couldn't get it

 

[dimb]

I believe he is saying that there aren't enough people playing on PTR, especially for minor patches like this one.

I am pretty sure I pay Blizzard to make and test the game, not the other way around.

The fact that they rely that heavily on the PTRs at all is pathetic.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Ok, I've hit my breaking point now too. Blizzard is starting to go off the deep-end with live tweaking on classes, it's not just values anymore, it's taking entire playstyles, gear choices, etc and throwing them into a loop. People log in one day, have to regear and reforge, log out, log back in and have to do it again.

Ol' GC has clearly lost it, it's like they have no direction for class design whatsoever. Just throw shit at a wall, on live servers, and hope it sticks. I'm getting highly annoyed and none of it even effects me, just friends.


I do really appreciate the attempt for consistent balance, but it's not a beta, have a fucking plan.

I've been saying this since 3.1, and things have never changed in the meanwhile: Ghostcrawler balances in the rearview mirror.


Every change is in situ with current balance. Every patch has a number of changes, they jostle each other out, and, with how big numbers are, the imbalances are extreme to say the least (especially since they've hogtied themselves with expectations of very, very tight parity, as class/spec benefits are frowned upon now).

Then you have the boomkin debacle.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I am pretty sure I pay Blizzard to make and test the game, not the other way around.

The fact that they rely that heavily on the PTRs at all is pathetic.

Perhaps they run simulations of people in various gear but nothing beats real world (live) analysis. The PTR can't even match that aspect since everyone is in gear they wouldn't have on live.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Expertise is a decent tank stat. It's not the best one ever, but it's not like you're walking around with Crit or something. It's just that the JP one happens to be better partially just because of the relative values of mastery.

Expertise is certainly good, but in raid situations it's not nearly as essential as mastery or the other survival stats. I'm at around 16 expertise and have no problems with threat; last week I had 12 and had no problems. I've experimented with being nearly capped and while my dps was higher, I got a few complaints about being squishier.

 

[Stuggernaut]

I agree with what someone said about a 4th tree, or a 3rd Spec for PVP.

I have not understood since vanilla why players can't be treated as exactly that, players. That react differently to spells than monsters.

All this tweaking of spells and damage and healing that messes so much up because of PVP imbalance could be avoided.

It is so frustrating to have stuff that works barely well enough to compete in PVE get nerfed into the ground because it is overpowered in PvP.

It is equally frustrating to see other classes be able to derail an entire class or spec of a class due to PvP whining.

We have weapons that only work against certain mobs

We have spells that only work against certain mobs.

Both react differently depending on what is hitting them.

Why can't players be specified as a different mob?

Example :

Frost mages. Nobody would disagree that some of the freeze mechanics were destroying people in PvP....if they did, they lie. During this time, how often did you hear people whining about frost dominating DPS in raids? Heroics? Regular dungeons?? Probably never.

So instead of nerfing the freeze mechanics into the ground, and cutting some DPS in half on PVE fights, why not just change how PLAYERS react to spells.

- Increase diminishing returns on freeze effects on PLAYERS
- Make ring of frost have a different time on PLAYERS
- Make PLAYERS more resistant to frost damage when frozen.

I think you get my point...whether right or wrong, IMO PvP balancing has killed this game over and over.

 

[Alex]

Third, re-purposed PvP tree is my solution at every turn

Easy stuff to turn perpetual PvE underachievers like Frost, Beast Mastery, Demonology, Subtlety, Arms, etc into what they're often picked for anyway.

For remaining triple role classes, such as Paladin or Shaman, just combine Resto/Elem and Prot/Ret like you would for Feral and work on a blank slate for their PvP tree, probably focusing as another hybrid melee tree.

Now you got most everyone in PvP working off a pseudo-hybrid archetype on a level playing field, you can focus more on class identity than role juggling and you can work on 10 options instead of 30+ and would never have to worry about PvE collateral again. It'd all still be on the same system, so no confusing spell variance.

As for GC, while I bash him now, he's done good things for the game. Class balance in LK+ has always been better than it was in BC or, god forbid, classic. In both PvE and PvP. But under modern systems, the way they've congealed and evolved, it could be a lot better, especially in manners that doesn't have players up shit creek with stats and weapons a couple days after a damn patch.

 

[Ferrio]

Expertise is a decent tank stat. It's not the best one ever, but it's not like you're walking around with Crit or something. It's just that the JP one happens to be better partially just because of the relative values of mastery.

As a war tank, expertise blows. The only reason you should ever not reforge it to something else is if you have threat issues.... which as long as your not braindead you won't.

Hit is the same... if not worse.

 

[Trasher]

As a war tank, expertise blows. The only reason you should ever not reforge it to something else is if you have threat issues.... which as long as your not braindead you won't.

Hit is the same... if not worse.

.

You are bad at tanking if you need hit/expertise in order to hold threat.

 

[TheExodu5]

.

You are bad at tanking if you need hit/expertise in order to hold threat.

It's not about holding threat, but being consistent about it. You need a lot of threat right off the bat, as DPS will be blowing their cooldowns on a boss pull. Bad RNG with a few parries and you'll get a dps killed.

Just a gander. I might be totally off base.

 

[Ferrio]

It's not about holding threat, but being consistent about it. You need a lot of threat right off the bat, as DPS will be blowing their cooldowns on a boss pull. Bad RNG with a few parries and you'll get a dps killed.

Just a gander. I might be totally off base.

That's dps's problem, not the tanks. Throwing tons of reforges into hits/expertise just for the first second a fight is retarded. Even then, long as rogues are tricksing you (again dps problem) etc... it's not an issue.

 

[Trasher]

That's dps's problem, not the tanks. Throwing tons of reforges into hits/expertise just for the first second a fight is retarded. Even then, long as rogues are tricksing you (again dps problem) etc... it's not an issue.

Exactly. Tricks's and MD's should always be used to help out at the start. It's also beneficial to throw your Vigilance on your best dps'er who pulls the most threat (I do it on our enhance shaman since he's our best dps and also because he has no feint/FD/etc) so you can taunt off of them immediately. And speaking of taunt, you always have that at the start to pull off of someone if a dps'er has some spikes right away.

 

[Ferrio]

Exactly. Tricks's and MD's should always be used to help out at the start. It's also beneficial to throw your Vigilance on your best dps'er who pulls the most threat (I do it on our enhance shaman since he's our best dps and also because he has no feint/FD/etc) so you can taunt off of them immediately. And speaking of taunt, you always have that at the start to pull off of someone if a dps'er has some spikes right away.

Love 2 tank fights, makes vigilance so awesome.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'll notice some threat issues in a heroic when dps are going crazy as I tip top around CC'd targets, but in a raid threat issues are usually non-existent. For instance when I begin the pull on Atramedes, I'll pull him back into position so the raid can set up. I've had dps pull threat as I position, but a quick taunt and things are back to normal without the boss hitting anyone but me.

 

[Trasher]

I'll notice some threat issues in a heroic when dps are going crazy as I tip top around CC'd targets, but in a raid threat issues are usually non-existent. For instance when I begin the pull on Atramedes, I'll pull him back into position so the raid can set up. I've had dps pull threat as I position, but a quick taunt and things are back to normal without the boss hitting anyone but me.

That always pisses me off on Atramedes. The friggin dps will attack the thing before I have even gotten him in place, which is at the center of the room. Chill out for 5 seconds!

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Hit/expertise is still on quite a bit of epic tank gear. Hit is on tier 11. Gonna have it some where whether you want it or not. No one was saying to gem or reforge for it, he was just wondering if one should craft the blacksmithing tank chest with expertise. It's not all about the start of the battle either. When battles are chaotic and you had adds or threat wipes, a few percent less chance to be dodged/parried and a few percent more chance to hit is helpful.

 

[Alex]

Only threat issue in a raid for us is our Fury Warrior, no threat dump and they open with insane DPS fall back to Earth instead of ramping up like everyone else.

5 mans are horrible for threat though once you outgear them, it's just ping pong in our daily runs.

 

[Trasher]

Hit/expertise is still on quite a bit of epic tank gear. Hit is on tier 11. Gonna have it some where whether you want it or not. No one was saying to gem or reforge for it, he was just wondering if one should craft the blacksmithing tank chest with expertise. It's not all about the start of the battle either. When battles are chaotic and you had adds or threat wipes, a few percent less chance to be dodged/parried and a few percent more chance to hit is helpful.

I've done all the raid content except Nef and Cho (and I can already tell it won't matter on those fights either), and there are no "chaotic" fights with adds which were a threat to making me lose aggro. Bottom line is that you do not need any expertise/hit. If it's on the gear you have, then reforge it to something useful like parry/dodge/mastery.

 

[TheExodu5]

That always pisses me off on Atramedes. The friggin dps will attack the thing before I have even gotten him in place, which is at the center of the room. Chill out for 5 seconds!

The other rogue and I are sprinting along with it with a ToTT giving lots of threat to the tank.

 

[charlequin]

Call me crazy, but I miss attunements personally. Perhaps not the old Ony type stuff, but I thought stuff like Kara was kinda cool.

I think the idea of attunements is really cool, they're just difficult to balance. Too long, complex, or difficult and they make getting people into a raid a nightmare and they screw up the instance runs necessary for the attunement. Too short and it's a bit like... why bother?

The biggest problem with attunements, and I think the main reason Blizzard has stopped doing them, is they make it much harder to sub random people in when you're one short.

Anyway, I love that there are little short feeder quests to all the Cata 5-mans to at least tell you why you're doing them and I wish there were an equivalent for the raids. Given the way Blizz does things now, maybe instead of actually locking you out of an instance completely if you aren't attuned, you should just permanently get some useful buff while you're in that instance if you're attuned -- that would give progression raiders a very good reason to attune to every raid but still let more casual guilds sub someone in a pinch.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

I think the idea of attunements is really cool, they're just difficult to balance. Too long, complex, or difficult and they make getting people into a raid a nightmare and they screw up the instance runs necessary for the attunement. Too short and it's a bit like... why bother?

The biggest problem with attunements, and I think the main reason Blizzard has stopped doing them, is they make it much harder to sub random people in when you're one short.

Anyway, I love that there are little short feeder quests to all the Cata 5-mans to at least tell you why you're doing them and I wish there were an equivalent for the raids. Given the way Blizz does things now, maybe instead of actually locking you out of an instance completely if you aren't attuned, you should just permanently get some useful buff while you're in that instance if you're attuned -- that would give progression raiders a very good reason to attune to every raid but still let more casual guilds sub someone in a pinch.

Which would pretty much make it a requirement anyways, even casual guilds would want the advantage.

 

[charlequin]

Well, it's not that they don't trust their testing, it's that the PTR is mostly to look for things that just don't work, like you try to cast Icy Touch and your character dies or something that's a crippling bug or something.

Right. I mean, this is the problem that affects literally every game company that produces a semi-competitive, metagame-oriented game with rolling content additions and lots of moving parts: the 0.1% population that you can test with internally or in beta/PTR will never find the things that 100% of the population in live do. To pick a seemingly very different example, Wizards of the Coast have this problem constantly with Magic: the Gathering -- they just can't catch some of the weird obscure interactions that hundreds of thousands of real-world players will inevitably find just by force of numbers.

Now, what this does mean is that Blizzard should really move towards a better patching strategy -- even though it's all going to be irrelevant in three months and no one will even remember that this happened anyway, spending this long testing a patch and then immediately doing hotfix nerfs just looks bad. It would be much better if they did, like, a three-week rolling-thunder patch and announced as much upfront -- first week is all their speculative balance tweaks, second week is adjustments based on the first week's results, third week is the response tweaks to that and (ideally) the "final" patch.

Third, re-purposed PvP tree is my solution at every turn

Easy stuff to turn perpetual PvE underachievers like Frost, Beast Mastery, Demonology, Subtlety, Arms, etc into what they're often picked for anyway.

Ugh, no. Dedicated PVP spec = blecch. Merging elemental and resto into one spec = double blecch. None of the ideas people have floated are perfect but I like this one a lot less than the "extra level of PVP talents" or "fourth PVP tree" or "separate effects in PVP and PVE, third spec tab for PVP specifically" ideas.

As for GC, while I bash him now, he's done good things for the game. Class balance in LK+ has always been better than it was in BC or, god forbid, classic.

Yeah, I certainly think it's worthwhile to always want more and better, but also to remember how far things have come. Class balance is orders of magnitude better than it was in vanilla now.

 

[charlequin]

Which would pretty much make it a requirement anyways, even casual guilds would want the advantage.

Like I said, the difference there is that everyone would have to do it to actually progress on fights, but it'd give you the ability to swap in a random guy at the last minute rather than call the raid.

(Though, again, I think attunements for raids are probably gone for good.)

 

[AceBandage]

Why is this zone going to waste?

 

[Brazil]

At least you can still fly there.


Fucking Blizzard.

 

[Bisnic]

Why is this zone going to waste?

Its not wasted, it is used for 12 lvls of worgen quests and a few quests of Horde! :lol I just wish there was some forsaken camps or npcs or something to show that they won the Gilneas war.

At least you can fly there like Brazil said. You can't even go back to the goblin isles.

 

[AceBandage]

True, I'd love to just wander around the Goblin starting area.
Still, it just seems like a huge beautiful area with a lot of work put into it that is just sitting there for 90% of the WoW population.

 

[Bisnic]

True, I'd love to just wander around the Goblin starting area.
Still, it just seems like a huge beautiful area with a lot of work put into it that is just sitting there for 90% of the WoW population.

They could put some archeology digsites in there to at least give an excuse to go back to Gilneas. Although the only thing i could see there is Fossil. And no one want to see more Fossil digsites.

 

[Cyrillus]

Still, it just seems like a huge beautiful area with a lot of work put into it that is just sitting there for 90% of the WoW population.

Couldn't agree more, Gilneas is my favorite-looking zone in the expansion. Which sucks because I hated the questline.

 

[Alex]

The Gilneas model kit is the best looking thing in the game, edging out Deepholm, IMO. The Battle for Gilneas battleground looks so, so nice especially.

 

[charlequin]

True, I'd love to just wander around the Goblin starting area.
Still, it just seems like a huge beautiful area with a lot of work put into it that is just sitting there for 90% of the WoW population.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a level-cap daily quest hub pop up in Gilneas (or a phased Kezan or something) later on in the expansion, as an alternative to tacking on a whole new island like they did in BC and Wrath.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I've done all the raid content except Nef and Cho (and I can already tell it won't matter on those fights either), and there are no "chaotic" fights with adds which were a threat to making me lose aggro. Bottom line is that you do not need any expertise/hit. If it's on the gear you have, then reforge it to something useful like parry/dodge/mastery.

Again, it's still going to be on tanks gear to an extent, even reforged. Wow is a math based game and a few more percent helps over all whether you want it or not.

 

[PhoenixDark]

That always pisses me off on Atramedes. The friggin dps will attack the thing before I have even gotten him in place, which is at the center of the room. Chill out for 5 seconds!

Yup, it's beyond annoying. I wish I could just charge in, shield slam, and heroic leak back to the desired position but that's impossible because dps will start nuking even if you ask them to chill for a sec. That boss needs to be positioned too, because of the sound wave thing he does. I've seen so many melee dps get their sound high early because they rush in and are more focused on their rotation than moving when they need to

 

[TheExodu5]

Atramedes is the easiest raid fight in Cataclysm. Some DPS are just absolutely retarded. In my guild, melee have no issues, but the ranged are always trying to finish off their casts at the last second and get hit by the sound wave. I really don't get it...it's the easiest thing to dodge in the world.