World of Warcraft |OT7| Feel the hatred of 10,000 Murlocs
- Thread starter ampere
- Start date
The more ridiculous thing is the fact that, you know, it's alpha. Stuff gets added in before it is finished/finalized, that's the entire point. Like I don't even know what to say about the people that complain about this stuff other than it's embarrassing. Really don't understand what is so hard about talking like a rationale level-headed human being instead of an asshole.
It's better in some ways, there's no reason to see how much you have of primary stats other than the one you use. It's missing dodge/parry/block, which is nice to see if you're a tank.
The removal of tertiaries (leech and avoidance) from the stat sheet and the conversion of a Prot Warrior talent from leech to "3% healing based on damage done" makes me think they are getting rid of leech/avoidance as a stat and going back to abilities that heal for damage done just saying that in the tooltip. So basically another weird experiment that lasted for one expac, lol.
The removal of tertiaries (leech and avoidance) from the stat sheet and the conversion of a Prot Warrior talent from leech to "3% healing based on damage done" makes me think they are getting rid of leech/avoidance as a stat and going back to abilities that heal for damage done just saying that in the tooltip. So basically another weird experiment that lasted for one expac, lol.
Modern WoW in a nutshell. Holy shit.
I know right? Making things look better and more streamlined is great.
Blue post says tertiary stats show up if you have them. The picture link in the thread where all the blue posts are coming from shows a guy with avoidance.
I agree tank stats should be there if you're a tank, seems like a dumb thing that will probably change.
I really really like this:
If a spell's CD is reduced by haste, it shows up in green now. That's a really simple way to convey the information. Like it a lot.
If a spell's CD is reduced by haste, it shows up in green now. That's a really simple way to convey the information. Like it a lot.
Honestly off the top of my head not sure if spirit itself is being removed but bonus armor and spirit from gear is gone I believe.
Dog Problems
Banned
I thought bonus armor and versatility were also going away?
Edit: Ah, saw bonus armor mentioned above.
Edit: Ah, saw bonus armor mentioned above.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Modern WoW in a nutshell. Holy shit.
As a hunter I really miss needing to know what my spell hit chance is so that I know my traps will never miss
(Not really)
Probably more to the point, it also looks like how the attribute screen on the armory has looked for a while:
Dunno when that simplified pane was introduced.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
Ooh, new Order Hall armor sets. I bet the Silver Hand one will be really paladin-y!
...k
Okay, probably temporary models, the warrior one is the same. I am still hopeful.
Given the lack of class-oriented pre-raid sets since BC, I doubt it, unfortunately.
Given the lack of class-oriented pre-raid sets since BC, I doubt it, unfortunately.
I wouldn't expect a unique model, but they could at least do something like the character creation armor.
edit: actually, these models seem to be used for EVERY piece of gear in the expansion thus far, outside of tier. definitely a placeholder for some of them.
Slipped my mind, you're right. Spirit, Bonus Armor and Multistrike are all being removed. But there can still be extra "armor" on trinket procs, at least there was on an alpha trinket for premade tanks
Yeah I wouldn't get my hopes up for class themed gear on top of tier. Would be nice if there was something at least on par with the salvage yard sets though (class themed but also fairly plain looking). That said the sets are a neat idea, they seem to give set bonuses based on being out in the world like increased out of combat regen when on the Broken Isles and damage reduction when your HP is low.
Also completely off topic from that but still related, I was thinking about it and with them putting such a big emphasis on dungeons again they should totally make new Dungeon Sets for everyone. C'mon Blizz, now is the time!!!!
With them pushing Mythic+ as an alternate endgame paradigm I'm kind of surprised there aren't dedicated sets for it.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I guess it depends on how the Mythic+ loot works. Like, is it all just the same as the base heroic dungeon loot, just jacking up the ilevel? Or will you actually be able to get the same loot that drops in the raids, not just "raid-level"?
I know the current Mythic dungeons are just epic versions of the heroic loot, but I guess it might be different with the new system.
Yeah we don't really know the specifics yet. Personally I'm expecting a mix, normal dungeon loot (with an increased ilvl) in the big treasure chest that appears at the end of dungeons and then actual raid items from the other treasure chest which appears to be inside your class hall in this alpha build. They've talked in the past how once a week you're supposed to get a chest with raid loot based on the highest dungeon tier you completed, I assume it's that.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Health? Mana? Movement speed? iLevel in big giant obnoxious letters as if it means anything at all, let alone is the most important thing?
Remember when gearscore came out and it was a fucking joke to most people, since what mattered was getting hit/expertise capped and styling your character like you knew what you were doing at all? Some people would stack ilevel over their useful stats or even wear the wrong type of armor!
Really everything on that 'stat pane' is useless except for ilevel now. Nothing is in my control to optimize my character or sacrifice one strength for another.
The point isnt that it's showing only the useful stats now. It's that the game has 3 stats now.
HarryDemeanor
Member
They should just do what SWTOR did and roll all the Strength, Intelligence, Agility, etc. stats into one new stat called Awesome.
Yeah I always found it sad they removed reforging when the real problem with stats was hit/exp (which were shitty and annoying). Reforging would be a cool way to customize your gear without them.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I dunno. It's cool, but without caps you have to tinker around like hit and expertise, it would only serve to make gear "more awesome". Potentially you're able to salvage pieces with like versatility on them, but that kind of defeats the point of there being bad gear as compared to good gear in the first place.
I actually kind of likes hit/exp if only because they made me feel more like I had something to try and cap other than block.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah, I definitely understand and mostly agree with the reasoning for removing hit and expertise, but removing reforging seems like a misstep in hindsight.
In vanilla, mage had basically two stats, crit and spellpower. Hit became a "thing" because it was easy to tell if someone had researched their class at all or not. You were either hit capped, or you were wrong. That wasn't skill, but it created the illusion of it. Even now, most gear "choice" consists at most of looking up the ideal stat and stacking it as best you can. And guess what? 9 times out of 10 that stat is the one your class was designed for, or you're just better off in the best gear you can get regardless. That's always been the way, it's just piles of numbers and disinformation make people who "understand" them feel superior to those that don't. Which is why it's always the mid-tier people who decry the "dumbing" of the game, because the top tier people understand what it actually takes to be good and don't care if other people do it or not, and the bottom tier just don't care.
Shhh don't bring logic in to this.
This shit always cracks me up, people like Laughtrey constantly moan about how good the old days were except when Blizzard makes changes that put the game closer in that direction they cry about how Blizzard is removing depth from the game. It's why it's impossible to take people with that mentality seriously.
Same thing applies to the ability pruning discussion lately, one sentence it's "BLIZZ WHY U REMOVE ALL MY ABILITY" and then in the next it's "man remember the good ol' days of class design." Boy do I ever remember being a rogue in vanilla and TBC and snoozing my way through encounters by hitting sinister strike/backstab and then Slice and Dice occasionally. Those were the days you guys, those were the days!!! ALL THAT GAMEPLAY DEPTH!!!!
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Holy shit when did it become ok to strawman like this? Are you kidding right now? Is this trade chat or MMO-Champ?
Get a grip dude. I don't like the game being watered down to the point where it isn't an RPG anymore. They're emphasizing cookie-cutter and simplification, and I'm crying and moaning because I don't like the lack of customization options?
Seriously. Fuck off with this anti-discussion rhetoric. If I think the game is better off with more RPG elements not less doesn't make me a whiner or a crybaby.
King Gilga
Member
Modern WoW in a nutshell. Holy shit.
Wow that really sucks, I love seeing stuff like my passive dodge or parry on my rogue or dps DK.
At least give a fucking option.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Well at the very least they've said all the current info will be available via API, so surely there will be addons that fix the display.
If you want to complain that doing things like making agility do literally nothing on paladins diminished the game (because it at times was actually useful for pally tanks), then maybe you have a slight point. Though I'd say the benefit of being able to use the same gear for healing, dps, and tanking out weighs that slight thing. But that changed long before this display update. Making the display only show things that are useful instead of a bunch of grayed out crap is an improvement. Besides, we don't even know what the customization options are going to be, for all we know, the original display will still be something you can turn on.
Also, lists of stats are not RPG elements. But that's an entirely different debate.
Robin64
Member
WoW isn't deep enough to support the RPG part of MMORPG, ultimately. It would need a drastic overhaul to support people going nuts with stats, like trying to build an agility paladin or a spell-powered-up death knight. As it is, that would just be "wrong", you wouldn't get to raid or anything. And in a way it's a shame, but I feel other MMOs out there cover this and WoW's thing now is about content being accessible to as many people as possible.
(I still think Diablo II is Blizzard's best game for that sort of "build what you want" gameplay)
(I still think Diablo II is Blizzard's best game for that sort of "build what you want" gameplay)
I'd much prefer WOW's high-end complexity and "difficulty" come from fight mechanics, knowing when and how to use your class' tools, and actual physical/reactionary ability.
Making spreadsheet management part of being "good" at the game doesn't interest me in the slightest. I'm fine with it for simming gear, stat weights, etc., but that's outside of the game design.
Making spreadsheet management part of being "good" at the game doesn't interest me in the slightest. I'm fine with it for simming gear, stat weights, etc., but that's outside of the game design.
If you were aiming to be effective at your role, there was no customization anyway. Outside of some edge cases, never has been. I had an initial negative reaction to that pane too, but honestly, I was going to stack the most effective stat anyway.
The only question you could ask yourself with gearing was "is this higher ilvl piece with worse secondaries better than my current piece?". And then you plugged the numbers to a program and found out.
There was never a point in WoW where talent builds or gearing was anything beyond the one correct choice or the multiple wrong choices. Having a bunch of wrong choices for the sake of it doesn't make the game deeper or more complex in the least. That is simply bad game design.
Yep. There's been an optimal talent build/gear list/rotation-or-priority for every spec for multiple expansions already. No one was ever forced to follow that, but you did if you wanted to be decent at what you do.
Well, a couple times wearing leather for a slot was more effective than plate for warriors. We still give shit to one of our warriors for bidding on those leather pieces :lol
But that was unintuitive and unfair to the actual leather wearers.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
That was exactly the point I was making. The UI is now reflecting the games simplification now is modern WoW in a nutshell. There is no more thinking or min/maxing when gearing your character, their goal is that item level trumps all. Being able to make SOME kind of investment into your character that you can't just change on the fly like talents is what makes you get a connection to your character.
If I could customize my warlock for survivability stats over damage, like when you used to gem for Stamina rather than Intel/Haste for certain fights or PVP. It's a long term investment that makes me feel a better sense of reward and accomplishment when I get something good out of it.
Now there's no thinking or customization involved. Some things like Orb of Voidsight slip through the cracks but Blizzards goal seems to be "ilevel > all". Haste doesn't cap anymore, crit doesn't cap anymore. Just grab all the gear you can, equip it and forget about it.
Oh well I'm certainly not saying Blizzard designed the game that way. They clearly had no idea what they were doing in the early days of WoW and were pretty much just throwing crap at the wall and seeing what stuck. More of just pointing out that the min/max mentality was there from day 1 and pretending it wasn't is ridiculous.
This was circa WotLK where they pretty much had a handle on things. Crit was just that good for warriors.
Nah I remember it well, especially as a rogue. Shit was rough. But my point is I don't think any of that was inentional. It was just another thing they didn't account for, similar to Paladins and cloth in vanilla.
Though personally I wouldn't really defend Wrath as them having a handle on things. This is the expansion where they designed the game around 4 different raid difficulties and then completely forgot to balance numbers for it to the point where they had to literally debuff people in the final raid tier because the game was so broken.
Stats do have caps, though. DKs want Multistrike but if they have Vial from Iron Maidens (BiS still, which is silly, but that's another discussion) they can easily pass 100% MS. It's not the case for everyone, but that's a class design argument, not a stat system argument.
Secondary stats definitely matter - crit (and multistrike while it's still here) provides meaningful interaction with abilities that adds complexity to rotations. Obviously, some stats are better than others. It's not as simple as "pick the highest-ilvl item" in many cases, because for some specs losing a secondary stat to get an ilvl bump is actually a DPS loss.
And you CAN still gear for survivability - that's what Versatility is for. It's why PVPers enchant/gem everything with Versatility. I don't get what you want - do you want raids to drop items that are all STA and have zero of your main stat or something?
In certain cases, yeah
DKs don't have a choice for most of their talent tiers at the moment. You pick either Necrotic Plague or Breath depending on if it's a single-target or multi-target fight. You pick Plague Leech except for a few fights where Carrion Swarm is better for Necrotic Plague stacking.
The rest of the tiers have one good option, occasionally one slight-less-good option for lazy people, and typically the rest are trash or outright harmful.
Legion will be better, hopefully.
Setzer
Member
This is exactly my problem with WoW and why I left. Way too much over simplifying and hand-holding. They took away all decision making and thinking players had to do when it came to stats and talent tree choices and pretty much said you'll play the class the way we want you to play the class. So, like you said, all you need to do is grab gear and equip it and not concern yourself with the stats on it. They may as well take out "Cloth", Plate", "Leather" and "Chain" armor types and have it so all gear can be equipable by all classes and it will automatically adjust to whichever armor type your class can use.