Would you bring back 'crunch culture' in gaming to eliminate delays?
- Thread starter Plies
- Start date
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Your comment is why I bolded There is abuse for sure.
I'm not talking about 100 hours a week, don't be disingenuous, but 50 to 60 hours (and pushing to 70 for voluntary) is ok IF EMPLOYEES RECEIVE ADEQUATE COMPENSATION OF COURSE.
And again, let developers complain to farmers or factory workers who, AS I SAID BEFORE, are destroying their health for next to nothing. Some of you are living in a fairy tale I swear.
Maybe you should read what you are quoting before acting like a white knight, but that's just me.
existensmaximum
Member
It's not like you have to choose between crunch culture and good games or something? Or that crunch ensures the game is good or finished on time, without bugs.
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calico
Member
I don't consider this a realistic assessment of what would happen. Not to mention if we arbitrarily add 6-12 months to the development schedule, many otherwise viable projects would simply never be started to begin with.
Shmunter
Member
In work, as in life
Audiophile
Member
Just make all studios Polish ex-factory workers. They'll work 24/7, seven days a week and somehow still fit in 2 other part time jobs while living on a diet of battered potato.
Lucifers Beard
Member
People actually voting yes to this? Crazy, probably never worked a day in your lives.
Those months are already part of the development schedule, it's just that publishers don't think they are until they inevitably delay the game for 6 moths like they did for their previous game and the one before and the one before.
calico
Member
A lot of people work jobs where the thought of someone having to sit in an air-conditioned office for a little longer than usual is perhaps not going to engender a huge amount of sympathy.
Felessan
Member
In terms if devs agreed on terms they should stick to it - certainly yes.
If you can't deliver on time - it's you problem, crunch, cry, whatever. "Fixed cost" term of contract all the way. And if you management underestimate/undercut - just kick them in the balls.
Not the "times and materials" everyone chills on and then make lame excuses.
If you can't deliver on time - it's you problem, crunch, cry, whatever. "Fixed cost" term of contract all the way. And if you management underestimate/undercut - just kick them in the balls.
Not the "times and materials" everyone chills on and then make lame excuses.
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MagusMajul
Member
Slavery is already a permitted punishment for criminals. And I agree.
Portugeezer
Member
Crunch shouldn't be mandated, it should naturally happen (sometimes, within reason of family/kids, etc) as a consequence of the passion you have for your job and your dev colleagues.
Problem with dev teams being so big these days, with hundreds of people, you're just a small piece of the puzzle; your extra effort and time might not feel like it is valued, this is why I feel like more people are against crunch.
Problem with dev teams being so big these days, with hundreds of people, you're just a small piece of the puzzle; your extra effort and time might not feel like it is valued, this is why I feel like more people are against crunch.
Topher
Identifies as young
Felessan
Member
Should be very simple choice - fail to deliver on time - either crunch, or lose bonus or get fired.
Why sudden;y failure to deliver project on time (and there is a mutual responsibility of a team) suddenly became a merit and not something punishable?
Zathalus
Member
It can be. I worked 100 hour high intensity weeks for about two months back in my early 30s and it absolutely broke me. I was stressed, had trouble sleeping for years, blood pressure spiked, got diagnosed with depression, and my whole personality changed."torture"
Regular overtime of up to 60 hours per week on the occasion is fine, but I'd never do something like that again.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
"torture"
Weekly work hours should be based on age imo
i.e i'd work 28 hours a week. You'd work 102 hours a week
Ev1L AuRoN
Member
We need more AA efforts and more experimentation in the industry, and an effort to hit better prices even if it means more conservative performance and game sizes. This future of games costing 80 dollars and in more powefulll consoles for the sake of it needs to die. They are just price me out of my hobbie.
Topher
Identifies as young
Eh....I guess so when you put it like that. Few years ago, I worked like a dog for two straight years on a software project. It was gruelling work. I put 40 hours in over the course of a single weekend once. Really the hardest part was not seeing my family very much. Can't say I ever worked 100 hours a week but I can see where that would be crossing into "torturous" work loads.
Having said that, I don't think we have a good definition of "crunch" in the industry either. If it is like what you describe then sure, but simply having to work OT isn't "torture". We lack context here.
ftfy
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Hypereides
Member
They're offsetting the burden of their poor choices onto you and making you pay for it. Costs only rose due to their miscalculations, odd projections, flawed planning and short-sighted decision making.
Besides, no one is asking you to cough up 80$ for those AAA games. You got a wealth of options available to you.
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viveks86
Member
The context is that crunch in the industry usually lasts months and not days or weeks. OT should be voluntary and should never be mandatory for an extended period of time. On top of that, OT in this case doesn't count for extra pay most of the time. That is, in fact, torture without pay imo. It's illegal in many countries.
The level of mental burnout it can cause has driven people to have suicidal thoughts in the company I worked for in the software industry. I've seen people literally faint from exhaustion. I had to quit fighting for my team over such company mandates. The country I was in had no legal recourse against any of it, so I left the country too. People don't take this stuff seriously in the games industry because it's a desk job and it's entertainment. But it can certainly take a toll.
Topher
Identifies as young
I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you say, but let's be clear about this. Are you saying that you believe having to work any unpaid, mandatory OT is "torture"?
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viveks86
Member
I'll admit that I'm being a bit hyperbolic and sensitive to it because it is an issue that hits me personally. But can we at least agree that being made to work unpaid OT for an extended period of time is… unethical? Why would anyone want to advocate for unethical behavior just so we can play more videogames?
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Topher
Identifies as young
Well that's why I wanted to clarify, because I get this can be a sensitive topic on a personal level. But yeah.....I think what you are describing is absolutely shitty and unethical. With you 100%.
Pasta la Vista
Member
I didn't vote, but I work 50-60 hour weeks regularly. During covid I was working 70+ hour weeks. Sometimes I would work 13 days in a ROW with no day off. I got paid overtime.
It's pretty typical for blue collar workers here in the US to work 50-60 hour weeks.
Unlike software developers, I work outside in the heat, the cold, in the wind and rain.
I swear some of you seem to think that all jobs pay well for just working 40 hours or less a week and sitting in a climate controlled office.
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Edgelord79
Gold Member
My work hours are from 6 AM to 5 PM every day except on the weekends. Sometimes I do some overhead work that needs to be completed on the weekends but not much anymore. However, when I was younger and doing field work it was also on Saturdays and some on Sunday due to having to do work that relied on species timing windows for ecology.
I probably hit 100 hrs a week sometimes, but definitely not consistently. Most centred around about 3 weeks a year. I grew up on a farm and basically you were working all the time.
Here in lies the crux. If I had to do it consistently I would find another job. Basically if workers leave because the conditions are too difficult the companies have to change or they will not be able to find enough qualified workers. Else, it will stay the same. Companies and industries don't change because of the goodness of their heart. They either are told to or have to in order to stay competitive.
As far as sympathy goes, sure nobody wants to make people work outside their means. But again, there are other opportunities. Find them and force companies to change. Nobody is going to lose sleep over it.
I probably hit 100 hrs a week sometimes, but definitely not consistently. Most centred around about 3 weeks a year. I grew up on a farm and basically you were working all the time.
Here in lies the crux. If I had to do it consistently I would find another job. Basically if workers leave because the conditions are too difficult the companies have to change or they will not be able to find enough qualified workers. Else, it will stay the same. Companies and industries don't change because of the goodness of their heart. They either are told to or have to in order to stay competitive.
As far as sympathy goes, sure nobody wants to make people work outside their means. But again, there are other opportunities. Find them and force companies to change. Nobody is going to lose sleep over it.
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Hudo
Member
Back in the day, people got tortured for entertainment.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
I think crunch has harmed just as many games as it's helped. Yes sometimes tight development deadlines can bring very creative solutions (Majora's Mask 3 day time limit), but certainly after a certain point people are no longer cognitively performing at their best when they've gone 30 days without a day off, or working 16 hours without sleeping.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchase
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Not always, but it certainly can.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
And phones. And everything else electronic.We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchase
Those Foxconn factories have suicide nets surrounding them for a reason. They're needed.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And phones. And everything else electronic.
Those Foxconn factories have suicide nets surrounding them for a reason. They're needed.
iQuasarLV
Member
I read your post, and give it some thought; BUT then I think of management environments of games like Star Citizen. Nea, it is TOTALLY the managements fault.Yeah, as someone who also worked in sandwich manufacturing, crunch is often a failure of planning and management, and any project manager who thinks that crunch is a "natural" part of development is exploiting their team.
BUT could it be that today's videogame working environments are too lenient and soft with its employees?
Let's say that if you could magically eliminate the delays of your favorite games by bringing back the old crunch culture, would you do it?
( and yes, this is a GTA 6 thread )
I am tired of executives and managers promising stretch goals for the next round of funding in backroom deals just to completely forget they have a product to release.
Todd Howard: Creation engine and let the players fix our broken games
Kojima: His fanboy infatuation with hollywood and getting hollywood stars in his games
Chris Roberts: Can never finish a game unless someone above him beats his ass into releasing a product.
The older people like them get to more brazenly obstinate they become.
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Plies
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
I see your point, but mentioning Star Citizen is a little extreme, don't you think?
viveks86
Member
Good point. We may turn a blind eye to it because it is happening in a foreign country that we can't control or can't empathize with, but I don't think that makes it ok for most people. If a thread is created with "should factory workers do more hours a day and more days a week, so we can handle console shortage?", I don't think most people would be voting yes. If they are saving lives by doing such work, at least the topic is worth debating.We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchase
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They already are doing "the more hours per day/weak." These poor "ants" are living in factory cities and it's their only life.
Any more and it's 24/7.
ShadowkillXNA
Member
Yeah, as someone who also worked in sandwich manufacturing, crunch is often a failure of planning and management, and any project manager who thinks that crunch is a "natural" part of development is exploiting their team.
BUT could it be that today's videogame working environments are too lenient and soft with its employees?
Let's say that if you could magically eliminate the delays of your favorite games by bringing back the old crunch culture, would you do it?
( and yes, this is a GTA 6 thread )
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viveks86
Member
Why back in the day? I'm certain it still happens. Even in progressive countries. I know this may piss some people off, but WWE gets pretty close to that. Only reason it gets away with it is its voluntary nature
ShadowkillXNA
Member
Opinions. They're fun arent they?
StreetsofBeige
Member
If a company and workers plan out the path nicely, there shouldnt need to be a crunch, unless there's situations requires a tight deadline and some things cant even be started yet till late in the process.
For example in finance, the team cant close off the month or quarter until the numbers are accurately forecast and processed as much as possible late in the game and then the team submits final numbers. You dont close off the month or quarter at the beginning of the month or quarter. It's not close to being done yet. You got to wait till you get near the end point and then do it. And hope there's no weird shit going on that week that prevents smoothly doing it.
How is it that in consumer goods, the marketing team gives everyone a heads up new products are coming out in 2 years, here's the path from manufacturing to shipping across oceans and ports to pricing to strategies, most of the time everything is smooth and on time. And that requires a shit ton of sorting out physical processes, instead of uploading a final file to an online store and gamers download it.
In gaming, I dont know. I dont work in it. Maybe there's some weird shit that requires crunch because Teams A and B have to wait till Team C finishes their part. And if Team C takes forever, too bad. Teams A and B get screwed on time remaining till launch.
For example in finance, the team cant close off the month or quarter until the numbers are accurately forecast and processed as much as possible late in the game and then the team submits final numbers. You dont close off the month or quarter at the beginning of the month or quarter. It's not close to being done yet. You got to wait till you get near the end point and then do it. And hope there's no weird shit going on that week that prevents smoothly doing it.
How is it that in consumer goods, the marketing team gives everyone a heads up new products are coming out in 2 years, here's the path from manufacturing to shipping across oceans and ports to pricing to strategies, most of the time everything is smooth and on time. And that requires a shit ton of sorting out physical processes, instead of uploading a final file to an online store and gamers download it.
In gaming, I dont know. I dont work in it. Maybe there's some weird shit that requires crunch because Teams A and B have to wait till Team C finishes their part. And if Team C takes forever, too bad. Teams A and B get screwed on time remaining till launch.
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iQuasarLV
Member
It IS a reality on the extreme end of what is wrong with game development. So extreme I only need mention the game and everyone gets the analogy.
2012 announcement to a planned sequel to 2003 Freelancer and 13 years of actual development. Are they actively trying to beat 3D Realms and Duke Nukem Forever's 14 year development to release record? Everyone else seems to copy business practices because they cannot independently think for themselves. So giving a pass on the extremes is emboldening the copy cats to do the same. Which IS the reason behind the context of this post. Its only come full circle thinking that crunch and churn are not already rampant in the endustry, and ONLY the physical limits of Time deny these managers from exploiting it more.
Hell I could rant about what business practices brought about the price hikes we see being hoisted on the consumer now, but that is not for this thread.
Plies
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
For most studios, the management approach you're talking about is unsustainable.
That's why we get news constantly of gloom and doom in the industry.
Exceptions aside, this conundrum has to correct itself sooner or later.
Is outright crunch the answer? Maybe not.
But there should be a nice medium somewhere.
Mandatory 50 hour work weeks ...
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MrRibeye
Member
The word "passion" comes from the Greek πάσχω meaning "to suffer".
Let those willing to suffer for their art create masterpieces for us to enjoy. Making art is not "a job" you clock in from 9-to-5.
Without passion (read: without suffering) you get environmental artists at Bethesda leaking TES 6 details because they admit to not care about TES.
[Referring to the leak from 2 days ago].
We call video games art, and at the same time we treat it like a product that is manufactured like an IKEA chair.
The masterpieces from the past, the Warcrafts and Half-Lifes, were crunched.
The masterpieces from today, the Hollow Knights and Stardew Valleys, were crunched.
Too many leads and directors at the big studios boot up War Thunder or World of Tanks once a week and spend the rest of their time with their kids building wind kites or running marathons (it's great that you spend all your time raising your kids, I love that you're doing that, but if you lost your passion for making masterpieces of art, then go program hospital software or go into accounting or something).
Let those willing to suffer for their art create masterpieces for us to enjoy. Making art is not "a job" you clock in from 9-to-5.
Without passion (read: without suffering) you get environmental artists at Bethesda leaking TES 6 details because they admit to not care about TES.
[Referring to the leak from 2 days ago].
We call video games art, and at the same time we treat it like a product that is manufactured like an IKEA chair.
The masterpieces from the past, the Warcrafts and Half-Lifes, were crunched.
The masterpieces from today, the Hollow Knights and Stardew Valleys, were crunched.
Too many leads and directors at the big studios boot up War Thunder or World of Tanks once a week and spend the rest of their time with their kids building wind kites or running marathons (it's great that you spend all your time raising your kids, I love that you're doing that, but if you lost your passion for making masterpieces of art, then go program hospital software or go into accounting or something).
StreetsofBeige
Member
It's treated like a product because money is at stake and all the big game companies are publicly traded companies worth billions.
Game companies also treat the product like a non-art business with all the mtx, making shitty games, shutting down servers etc... too.
Media is one part art and one part business. Always has been. Media can be non-profit motivated if there's no money at stake (a guy make a painting after work in his basement and doesn't care it takes 6 months to do kind of thing).