Your comment is why I bolded There is abuse for sure.of course not.
I don't need people fto work themselves to the ground so that I can have my entertainment.
crunch time is more than just upping a your weekly hours to 50 sometimes.
we are talking 6 to 9 months working 60/100 hours a week, basically living in the office, coming out at 2 am to be back there at 9 again to do it again.
do not know if that is still the case, but absurd levels of crunch were reported as recent as red dead redemption 2's development.
maybe you should know what you are talking about before calling people names, but that's just me
I don't consider this a realistic assessment of what would happen. Not to mention if we arbitrarily add 6-12 months to the development schedule, many otherwise viable projects would simply never be started to begin with.You want to announce a game for date xx/xx. Now before you do that, add 6 months to that date. There you go, 90% of delays gone. Make it a year if you really want to make sure you're not gonna delay your game.
In work, as in lifeThat's precisely the reason not to crunch.
Nobody sane, at the end of their lives, will look back and think "oh, if I only spent more time working and less time with friends/family/hobbies".
The game can come out later, it's fine. We have way too many games anyway.
Those months are already part of the development schedule, it's just that publishers don't think they are until they inevitably delay the game for 6 moths like they did for their previous game and the one before and the one before.I don't consider this a realistic assessment of what would happen. Not to mention if we arbitrarily add 6-12 months to the development schedule, many otherwise viable projects would simply never be started to begin with.
A lot of people work jobs where the thought of someone having to sit in an air-conditioned office for a little longer than usual is perhaps not going to engender a huge amount of sympathy.People actually voting yes to this? Crazy, probably never worked a day in your lives.
Slavery is already a permitted punishment for criminals. And I agree.What next? Slavery poll?
So… we want to torture people so our entertainment is delivered on time?
Should be very simple choice - fail to deliver on time - either crunch, or lose bonus or get fired.Crunch shouldn't be mandated, it should naturally happen (sometimes, within reason of family/kids, etc) as a consequence of the passion you have for your job and your dev colleagues.
Problem with dev teams being so big these days, with hundreds of people, you're just a small piece of the puzzle; your extra effort and time might not feel like it is valued, this is why I feel like more people are against crunch.
It can be. I worked 100 hour high intensity weeks for about two months back in my early 30s and it absolutely broke me. I was stressed, had trouble sleeping for years, blood pressure spiked, got diagnosed with depression, and my whole personality changed."torture"
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"torture"
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It can be. I worked 100 hour high intensity weeks for about two months back in my early 30s and it absolutely broke me. I was stressed, had trouble sleeping for years, blood pressure spiked, got diagnosed with depression, and my whole personality changed.
Regular overtime of up to 60 hours per week on the occasion is fine, but I'd never do something like that again.
Weekly work hours should be based on mental capacity imo
i.e i'd work 28 hours a week. You'd work 102 hours a week
They're offsetting the burden of their poor choices onto you and making you pay for it. Costs only rose due to their miscalculations, odd projections, flawed planning and short-sighted decision making.We need more AA efforts and more experimentation in the industry, and an effort to hit better prices even if it means more conservative performance and game sizes. This future of games costing 80 dollars and in more powefulll consoles for the sake of it needs to die. They are just price me out of my hobbie.
The context is that crunch in the industry usually lasts months and not days or weeks. OT should be voluntary and should never be mandatory for an extended period of time. On top of that, OT in this case doesn't count for extra pay most of the time. That is, in fact, torture without pay imo. It's illegal in many countries.Having said that, I don't think we have a good definition of "crunch" in the industry either. If it is like what you describe then sure, but simply having to work OT isn't "torture". We lack context here.
The context is that crunch in the industry usually lasts months and not days or weeks. OT should be voluntary and should never be mandatory for an extended period of time. On top of that, OT in this case doesn't count for extra pay most of the time. That is, in fact, torture without pay imo. It's illegal in many countries.
I'll admit that I'm being a bit hyperbolic and sensitive to it because it is an issue that hits me personally. But can we at least agree that being made to work unpaid OT for an extended period of time is… unethical? Why would anyone want to advocate for unethical behavior just so we can play more videogames?I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you say, but let's be clear about this. Are you saying that you believe having to work any unpaid, mandatory OT is "torture"?
I'll admit that I'm being a bit hyperbolic and sensitive to it because it is an issue that hits me personally. But can we at least agree that having to work unpaid OT for an extended period of time is… unethical? Why would anyone want to advocate for unethical behavior just so we can play more videogames?
I didn't vote, but I work 50-60 hour weeks regularly. During covid I was working 70+ hour weeks. Sometimes I would work 13 days in a ROW with no day off. I got paid overtime.People actually voting yes to this? Crazy, probably never worked a day in your lives.
Back in the day, people got tortured for entertainment.So… we want to torture people so our entertainment is delivered on time?
We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchaseSo… we want to torture people so our entertainment is delivered on time?
Not always, but it certainly can.i think crunch makes the game shitter.
And phones. And everything else electronic.We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchase![]()
And phones. And everything else electronic.
Those Foxconn factories have suicide nets surrounding them for a reason. They're needed.
I read your post, and give it some thought; BUT then I think of management environments of games like Star Citizen. Nea, it is TOTALLY the managements fault.Yeah, as someone who also worked in sandwich manufacturing, crunch is often a failure of planning and management, and any project manager who thinks that crunch is a "natural" part of development is exploiting their team.
BUT could it be that today's videogame working environments are too lenient and soft with its employees?
Let's say that if you could magically eliminate the delays of your favorite games by bringing back the old crunch culture, would you do it?
( and yes, this is a GTA 6 thread )
I see your point, but mentioning Star Citizen is a little extreme, don't you think?I read your post, and give it some thought; BUT then I think of management environments of games like Star Citizen. Nea, it is TOTALLY the managements fault.
I am tired of executives and managers promising stretch goals for the next round of funding in backroom deals just to completely forget they have a product to release.
Good point. We may turn a blind eye to it because it is happening in a foreign country that we can't control or can't empathize with, but I don't think that makes it ok for most people. If a thread is created with "should factory workers do more hours a day and more days a week, so we can handle console shortage?", I don't think most people would be voting yes. If they are saving lives by doing such work, at least the topic is worth debating.We're all okay with it when it comes to having enough hardware to purchase![]()
They already are doing "the more hours per day/weak." These poor "ants" are living in factory cities and it's their only life.Good point. We may turn a blind eye to it because it is happening in a foreign country that we can't control or can't empathize with, but I don't think that makes it ok for most people. If a thread is created with "should factory workers do more hours a day and more days a week, so we can handle console shortage?", I don't think most people would be voting yes. If they are saving lives by doing such work, at least the topic is worth debating.
Yeah, as someone who also worked in sandwich manufacturing, crunch is often a failure of planning and management, and any project manager who thinks that crunch is a "natural" part of development is exploiting their team.
BUT could it be that today's videogame working environments are too lenient and soft with its employees?
Let's say that if you could magically eliminate the delays of your favorite games by bringing back the old crunch culture, would you do it?
( and yes, this is a GTA 6 thread )
Why back in the day? I'm certain it still happens. Even in progressive countries. I know this may piss some people off, but WWE gets pretty close to that. Only reason it gets away with it is its voluntary natureBack in the day, people got tortured for entertainment.
It's just a videogame. Unless you've got a terminal disease and you absolutely need to play GTA6 before you perish, you can wait.
It IS a reality on the extreme end of what is wrong with game development. So extreme I only need mention the game and everyone gets the analogy.I see your point, but mentioning Star Citizen is a little extreme, don't you think?
For most studios, the management approach you're talking about is unsustainable.It IS a reality on the extreme end of what is wrong with game development. So extreme I only need mention the game and everyone gets the analogy.
2012 announcement to a planned sequel to 2003 Freelancer and 13 years of actual development. Are they actively trying to beat 3D Realms and Duke Nukem Forever's 14 year development to release record? Everyone else seems to copy business practices because they cannot independently think for themselves. So giving a pass on the extremes is emboldening the copy cats to do the same. Which IS the reason behind the context of this post. Its only come full circle thinking that crunch and churn are not already rampant in the endustry, and ONLY the physical limits of Time deny these managers from exploiting it more.
Hell I could rant about what business practices brought about the price hikes we see being hoisted on the consumer now, but that is not for this thread.
It's treated like a product because money is at stake and all the big game companies are publicly traded companies worth billions.The word "passion" comes from the Greek πάσχω meaning "to suffer".
Let those willing to suffer for their art create masterpieces for us to enjoy. Making art is not "a job" you clock in from 9-to-5.
Without passion (read: without suffering) you get environmental artists at Bethesda leaking TES 6 details because they admit to not care about TES.
[Referring to the leak from 2 days ago].
We call video games art, and at the same time we treat it like a product that is manufactured like an IKEA chair.
The masterpieces from the past, the Warcrafts and Half-Lifes, were crunched.
The masterpieces from today, the Hollow Knights and Stardew Valleys, were crunched.
Too many leads and directors at the big studios boot up War Thunder or World of Tanks once a week and spend the rest of their time with their kids building wind kites or running marathons (it's great that you spend all your time raising your kids, I love that you're doing that, but if you lost your passion for making masterpieces of art, then go program hospital software or go into accounting or something).