Would you bring back 'crunch culture' in gaming to eliminate delays?

Bring back Crunch Culture?

  • Total voters
    316
DeepEnigma said:
They already are doing "the more hours per day/weak." These poor "ants" are living in factory cities and it's their only life.

Any more and it's 24/7.
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Agreed. I'm just saying that's not ok. And if we are ok with it, then we should spend more time thinking about it, especially if we want to voice an opinion on the topic.

There's all kinds of atrocities happening in the background to give us the products we take for granted. That doesn't make it ok. If it were, we would still be buying blood diamonds. I'm no activist, so I'm not for banning consumption altogether as i don't believe that fixes anything. But I would definitely encourage raising awareness so we don't become part of the problem and look for better solutions.
 
Would I cause suffering to others so I could get a game quicker? No.

More investment is needed in tools that help reduce development time, rather than making people work all hours under the sun.
 
IDKFA said:
More investment is needed in tools that help reduce development time, rather than making people work all hours under the sun.
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It's called, A.I. , my alpha male friend.
 
No, I've said before he and other places that tools have to improve and assets workflow have to be done at higher level, crunch will only lower games quality as complexity is way too big compared to games made 20 years ago to keep track of the quality of everything no matter the level of crunch
 
Blank Space Invader said:
It has nothing to do with crunch culture, but why that crunch exists in the first place. Eliminate that and you eliminate crunch.
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Garfield And Friends What GIF by Boomerang Official
 
If people want to work more, I think they should be allowed. But I never liked hearing stories about fathers only seeing their children when they were asleep. That kind of crazy OT is not worth it to me as a player. I can wait longer to get the game.
 
Crunch is inevitable because human beings are most productive working under pressure and against deadline.

See GRRM for example of when someone goes on the it will get done when it's done mode.
 
I don't see a problem with crunch times when the team who does it has passion of the game. I mean, up until last generation I can't remember many complaining about crunch…

But of course if you are working on a bloated AAA cashgrab, no one will want to do crunch.

So yeah, I don't think the crunch per se is the problem. It's more the soulless games most devs are working on.
 
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I don't care as long as people get paid for their overtime. I also don't care if games get delayed but I've grown quite tired of how unfinished many of them are at release. I've given up on too many games for their shoddy performance at launch only to find out that they get much better long after I've abandoned them. Redfall and Starfield being two recent examples.

'Crunch' is otherwise a far too loaded term to give any real answer. But there's a reason it exists in tech and it's not just limited to gaming. I don't like seeing people overworked but I also don't like paying for glorified 'early access' games and leaving it to chance that I'll eventually get a functioning product.
 
Why don't we dial back the filler content, graphics down a notch or two and generally put gameplay over so much engine and iterative wastage?

Bring back semi-crunch with the balance of flexible work hours and time off in the down times. Work is cyclic by nature but full on crunch is a sign of poor management.
 
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EverydayBeast said:
Let developers finish their games, I like demos it doesn't take money from you.
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We can no longer trust developers to finish their games within a reasonable timeframe.
Reform is a necessity.

I propose the mandatory use of streamlined game engines like UE8
 
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As someone that's been in the industry almost 20 years, crunch culture has been deeply ingrained into video game development for decades, and it still exists. Mind you, majority don't just constantly crunch, but there are crunches that can last weeks or months depending on the deadline and other variables. I know a lot of studios have attempted to keep this from happening, but it all really depends on a number of things. Including internal management, workflow, production, etc. A lot of smaller studios are able to control it better it seems, however AAA and equivalent surely still crunch because the last thing they're going to do is restructure how they do things internally if it worked fine for them over the years.

In a perfect world I would love to make it so crunching doesn't exist, and people have 4 day work weeks, lol. But the company would certainly need to function on a specific and efficient workflow to make sure it's successful.

For me personally, I've crunched at majority of the studios I've worked at, and I had no problem at all with it. The thing is, we were given a heads up when it was likely going to happen. Some people couldn't do it be it because of other responsibilities, which is understandable. But they still tried to get extra hours in where they could. But we usually got enough of a heads up to prepare. These studios were fill with vets as well, so they knew it was coming and they wanted to ensure everyone was informing as soon as possible. Especially the newbies.

I personally had some of the best times of my career during crunch. Some funny and amazing experiences. That being said, I did miss out on a number of things that I regret too. A lot of them being concerts I really wanted to go to that I just couldn't make happen. Or just more time with people before they moved, passed, etc.

It's why just one of those reminders where, just because you love something doesn't always necessarily mean you want to work doing it. It's most certainly not for everyone, especially for those that don't think they could ever crunch.
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z said:
Why don't we dial back the filler content, graphics down a notch or two and generally put gameplay over so much engine and iterative wastage?
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Because the big corporations always have to strive for bigger is better.

Even though there can be quality AA or indie games, the big guys will rarely dumb down to those levels because with their budgets and people, it's too low brow to make a Schedule 1 or Clair 33. And they dont want to splice the budget into two games. If possible, aim it all into one giant AAA game with tons of costs and marketing and pray it sells 10M copies with years of mtx to boot. All or nothing kind of attitude.
 
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StreetsofBeige said:
Because the big corporations always have to strive for bigger is better.

Even though there can be quality AA or indie games, the big guys will rarely dumb down to those levels because with their budgets and people, it's too low brow to make a Schedule 1 or Clair 33. And they dont want to splice the budget into two games. If possible, aim it all into one giant AAA game with tons of costs and marketing and pray it sells 10M copies with years of mtx to boot. All or nothing kind of attitude.
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StreetsofBeige said:
Because the big corporations always have to strive for bigger is better.

Even though there can be quality AA or indie games, the big guys will rarely dumb down to those levels because with their budgets and people, it's too low brow to make a Schedule 1 or Clair 33. And they dont want to splice the budget into two games. If possible, aim it all into one giant AAA game with tons of costs and marketing and pray it sells 10M copies with years of mtx to boot. All or nothing kind of attitude.
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Yep,

It's such an all your eggs in one basket too. I'd rather see more Hazelight > Split Fiction (not sure how many staff) and It Takes Two (65 staff) games come out. Far more fun to play and they can develop multiple games and take some risks across them too. Bottom line cashflow also is at quicker intervals and diversified. Stupid corpos don't even corpo right. It's just hubris or ego chasing some stellar AAA title to beholden.
 
KyoZz said:
I'm not talking about 100 hours a week, don't be disingenuous, but 50 to 60 hours (and pushing to 70 for voluntary) is ok IF EMPLOYEES RECEIVE ADEQUATE COMPENSATION OF COURSE.
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For crunch-time phases? Maybe that's fine.

But regular paid overtime is an extremely thin ice to walk on. Very quickly, that leads to everyone being expected to do it or they'll be let go.
Then, in theory, nobody has to work longer - but in practice.... That's the way it used to be in gaming.

KyoZz said:
And again, let developers complain to farmers or factory workers who, AS I SAID BEFORE, are destroying their health for next to nothing. Some of you are living in a fairy tale I swear.
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Nobody forces you to become a farmer in developed countries. In fact, there's a reason almost nobody wants to do it anymore - a problem only solved once people are willing to pay adequately for food. So never, probably :LOL:
Just how I always found it weird how 20 years ago people complained about crunch in games, when you KNOW that what you're getting into.

Now the crunch has mostly left, at least.

Anyway, occasional crunch is generally fine if you truly like what you are doing.
Which is true for maybe 2-3% of workers, the rest is in it for the money, because they have to. Just because someone works "in gaming" doesn't mean they love their job.
In that scenario "work more" is simply a "nope!".
 
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There's so much shit to play, I'm in no hurry to play the latest AAA slop rushed out the door.

I would love to see a return to the bottom line when it came to Blizzard's releases in their heyday: "When it's done."
 
I don't really understand the question because I don't think "crunch culture" has truly gone away. I also got a say, I completely disagree with this
The Lunch Legend said:
crunch is often a failure of planning and management, and any project manager who thinks that crunch is a "natural" part of development is exploiting their team.
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Sometimes "crunch" is just out of your control, no matter how well you plan. I remember being in college and working in retail and it would be SOOO busy during the holiday season that we would have pretty much have everyone work and typically work more hours and we still couldn't keep up with demand. But you know what, right after that season ended, the store became dead and it was then basically being paid to stand around and do nothing for a good bit.

Im not a dev so maybe it doesn't work like this but from afar I could see this totally being the case. The last month or 2 before a game releases is probably hell. But after the game releases, what do they do for the next couple of months? Probably some easy patch updates and spit ball ideas for a new project? That seems pretty damn relaxed and not something I would deem an unfair work-life balance.

So I guess I'm cool with crunch, as long as its done relatively fairly. If it's months and months on end, that's poor planning and something most people won't tolerate with. If it's for a short stretch to hit a window, no problem as that's life.
 
Crunch culture hasn't gone away. We're doing more work with less people on tighter deadlines and given Copilot and ChatGPT licenses to compensate.
 
TropicanaTwista said:
I don't really understand the question because I don't think "crunch culture" has truly gone away. I also got a say, I completely disagree with this


Sometimes "crunch" is just out of your control, no matter how well you plan. I remember being in college and working in retail and it would be SOOO busy during the holiday season that we would have pretty much have everyone work and typically work more hours and we still couldn't keep up with demand. But you know what, right after that season ended, the store became dead and it was then basically being paid to stand around and do nothing for a good bit.

Im not a dev so maybe it doesn't work like this but from afar I could see this totally being the case. The last month or 2 before a game releases is probably hell. But after the game releases, what do they do for the next couple of months? Probably some easy patch updates and spit ball ideas for a new project? That seems pretty damn relaxed and not something I would deem an unfair work-life balance.

So I guess I'm cool with crunch, as long as its done relatively fairly. If it's months and months on end, that's poor planning and something most people won't tolerate with. If it's for a short stretch to hit a window, no problem as that's life.
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For me it depends on the pay. I think people should just quit if they are forced work extra with no pay. If their salary rate is low, crunch should be at 2x or 3x regular pay, and optional.

If they are not hourly pay, and yearly wage, it's up to the person. If they're making millions of dollars a year or a commission off each sale, sure, they'd be interested in working unpaid. If not, they should just quit.

If I worked retail at holidays, you damn well better believe they're paying me extra for extra hours.
 
And prevent people from seeing their families, giving them mental and physical trauma, kill all team morale, and cause them to burn out like a flickering light? No. Developers aren't slaves.

Crunch will always be a thing in any competitive and lucrative industry, even filmmaking and the photography industry both have crunch. However, if I were a studio head, I wouldn't force it on anybody.
 
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If you can't take the heat, get the fuck out the kitchen; I always say.

But seriously, if crunch is requested, a hefty pay-raise should accompany that request with the option of opting-out without repercussions.
 
Last Hearth said:
Crunch is inevitable because human beings are most productive working under pressure and against deadline.

See GRRM for example of when someone goes on the it will get done when it's done mode.
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There needs to be a balance. A group, or individual, that pushes itself by an ideal ultimate vision is great, but they also have to know when to set a limitation. Putting pressure on people to deliver top quality week on week, or over a prolonged period, will eventually result in the exact opposite. At some point, the productivity will nosedive and overall quality of the work/product will begin to suffer. Players will take notice of this.

There's this infamous and equally interesting backstory to how the realization of "Who framed Roger Rabbit" came to be. They had a legendary animator on the team who devised a clever technique to make the cartoon characters appear seamlessly intertwined and lifelike into the real life scenery. The guy who came up with the technique was truly gifted and talented, but he was also an unapologetic perfectionist. Now, that in itself isn't a problem. However, it becomes one when you're working on a project with a due deadline on someone elses funding. Then you have to start making smart choices on how to complete that vision, bring it home, and get the work/product finished and delivered on time.

With "Who framed Roger Rabbit", they were forced to contract an external animator team to complete the movie otherwise they would've been stuck in an indecisive and continuous spiral of one guy's perfectionism. As a creator, you are more than welcome to polish a piece of work as much as you like, but it becomes an entirely different issue when you're doing it someone elses bill.
 
Minsc said:
For me it depends on the pay. I think people should just quit if they are forced work extra with no pay. If their salary rate is low, crunch should be at 2x or 3x regular pay, and optional.

If they are not hourly pay, and yearly wage, it's up to the person. If they're making millions of dollars a year or a commission off each sale, sure, they'd be interested in working unpaid. If not, they should just quit.

If I worked retail at holidays, you damn well better believe they're paying me extra for extra hours.
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Agree and will say from my experience, that's always the case. Or if it's not extra pay there some other type of benefits. I'm currently salary at my job and sometimes have to work maintenances off hours overnight. I technically don't get paid for those hours, but my job allows me to take half days or full days off during weekdays in my normal 9-5 shift (depending on the length of the maintenance).

As long as you get something out of it, I have no problem with it. I'm sure there is some jobs out there but hell, id imagine that every job has some form of crunch, one way or another.
 
I believe the truth of "crunch culture" was that it happened from time to time but not as bad as it was reported across the whole industry. Since we have seen time and time again that sensationalism and exaggerating has been the modus operendi of gaming journalists, it is safe to assume it was spun a certain way. For real, even the best of them are directed to boost up the drama to get them clicks. But there was a few really bad opples that were easy targets for the click starved vultures to descend down on.

So to avoid bad press when the gaming press had any power, studios switched to cycles where a shitty hero shooter that doesn't appeal to anyone could be stretched over 8 years with a mad dash of actual work at the end of development (punchline: crunch didn't go away... devs just expanded development cycles).

The truth is in the middle. Some offices like other industries were toxic as fuck with petty tyrants as project leads, many were not. Many were in an industry where a lot of work is needed at key phases of a project. But for the press, giving a message of, "it's complicated" doesn't get them traffic.

All studios ever needed to do was disclose that these crunch times will happen to new hires and then compensate for the increased work load with something sensible. Not turn their studios into adult day cares where the employees can talk shit to their potential customer base on social media and procrastinate for years in some cases. Again, the press has fabricated outrage for the eyes on their articles and the studios over-corrected. Shit needed to change but the change that was needed was disclosure and increased compensation.

But whatever. I am here for the rise of AA's, non-western AAA studios, and Indies devs. (and yea, those three other groups have their own unique problems but you get way more diamonds in the rough from them. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, but I go with good enough with hops of an occasional great)

Let the Western AAA's continue down this path. The games they release are a joy for those of us who don't buy them but love the spectacle of their many, many issues.
 
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If you answered yes to this, I will put you on ignore because I really don't want to hear from you.

It's a No, and it's for obvious reasons.
 
Devs take job in overtime-exempt salary positions. Then complain when they don't get paid for overtime. Shocking stuff. I've done a lot of professional crunch. I never minded much, but then again, I negotiated away from salary after my first long stint on it. Terrible pay structure. I expect to lose a weekend, maybe two at the end of this month or early June. Kinda hyped about it because it's going to cover my walking around money on vacation in July. These devs need to grow up and get over it. Be thankful there's that much demand for the fruits of your labor.
 
To eliminate delays? No. Not at all.

To reduce the costs of making games? Depends on what my study that I would do would tell me.

It may seem obvious to you that crunch, or lackthereof, wouldn't reduce the cost of development that much.

If so you assume way too much and I could not have you working on this problem for me. We need hard numbers, not anecdotes. Specifically I want to see the effects of crunch on a work from home team.

Plenty of other industries have to work harder during certain times. Retail during black Friday/cyber Monday. Hospitals during mass casualty. Hell, restaurant workers during promotions. Overtime exists. People have been forced to work overtime in real jobs forever and they still are. Why specifically do you think game devs should be immune when other industries are not? Do you imagine gaming less important than a restaurant? That is the same argument as saying "gaming is not a real job so let them take their time, nothing will be hurt." That is also a childish argument that would not be working under me. People do not pay you to do "not a real job" to the people that pay you, they pay you what your time is worth. Police officer or bar maid. If you serve the public like game developers or air plane builders or movie makers or authors do, then you crunch. Ask any writer that has ever written a book. They all crunched. Ordinarily at our jobs we work at about 30% efficiency. When we crunch we work much harder because instead of a time to be done we are working with a task in mind to be done. Crunch is the only time a group can work together with minimal breaks and weeks of work can be accomplished in hours this way. It would not surprise me to see lack of crunch increase a game's cost by 10%. I'd need to do a study to determine if I thought crunch was valuable for me and my company I would not be able to accept small brained logic with very little effort even put into the thought behind the concept. People not wanting to work and screaming "crunch bad" are not studies. Games come out once ever few years. This does not seem like a lot of crunch time per employee. Every employee I would hire would be asked if they would be able to work after hours once every couple of years to launch a game. Can you imagine the entitlement it would take to say "no that's too much to ask" to such a simple thing 4 weeks every 2 years and they get paid time and a half during the OT period? It's crazy people make such a complaint about this. In any other industry this would die in darkness and employees would be punished for bringing it up.
 
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No matter how passionate you are about games, you shouldn't want to promote exploitation. That being said, I do think there is a definite need for better management of projects and resources. There is significant bloat in the AAA markets in the west, and this has resulted in overstaffing, agenda pushing and pandering, lack of clear direction and focus, and terrible allocation of resources and communication handling projects. It's almost like the focus has moved away from making great games to pushing agendas, making certain factions happ,y and chasing trends.
 
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SABRE220 said:
No matter how passionate you are about games, you shouldn't want to promote exploitation. That being said, I do think there is a definite need for better management of projects and resources. There is significant bloat in the AAA markets in the west, and this has resulted in overstaffing, agenda pushing and pandering, lack of clear direction and focus, and terrible allocation of resources and communication handling projects. It's almost like the focus has moved away from making great games to pushing agendas, making certain factions happ,y and chasing trends.
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The passion has been diluted behind corporate agendas. And these corporations have unfortunately been infiltrated by ..
 
I don't see anyone happy to bring back crunch culture in their own jobs and lives so they can more easily afford $80 games.

Maybe that's where we should start from instead, since some of you apparently like soul crushing work.
 
Crunch is inherent to video game development. So the longer the development time, the longer the crunch time. I hope Rockstar employees enjoy this extra year of crunch.
 
The Lunch Legend said:
BUT could it be that today's videogame working environments are too lenient and soft with its employees? 🤔
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No.
Games were delayed left and right for as long as industry has been around, including the peak of "EA spouse" periods.
Crunch never had a material impact on meeting deadlines more predictably(arguably it made it worse), its a complete illusion.
 
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