Would you buy DDR5 for system RAM on PC if you could?

Can someone just make a damn explanatory RAM thread already? I might, if i keep seeing these bullshit threads.

Do it already. Or someone. (Not addressing you personally right now at all)

I (and obviously many around here) have no clue how it works.

Yesterday clicking on one of the RAM threads (Don't find it right now, Edit2: Wait, it's this very thread.) and 90% of the first 100 posts being something in the line of:

"LOL, console peasants wanna join the tech talk now, but have now clue :lololol there is a 'G' and a '5' it must be better teehee..."

Very insightful, thanks GAF.


Edit: ^ The two posts above mine for reference...
 
I so would.

Modding my RAM like yeah
Moving the data like yeah

I got my hands up it's playing a song
I know my PCs gonna be like new
yeah eh yeah yeah eh yeah eh
Party in the CPU

584313_2328_front.jpg
 
I have to admit, I have no idea what the difference is between the DDR3 system RAM and the RAM in my GPU.

What it is, and when they'll put something better in motherboards and why. I just assume they haven't because what we have isn't much of any kind of bottleneck and there isn't much point in upgrading.
 
Wow... DDR4 will be released later this year. They haven't even released DDR4 to the public yet. DDR5 probably won't show up until 2020. I don't even know if there's any rumblings whatsoever about DDR5.
 
We'll might get stacked RAM before that, maybe combined with an AMD APU in laptops.
A stack of DDR3/4 on a wide interface (1024bit) can easily outdo GDDR5 while potentially being much cheaper and using less power and mainboard space. It just wasn't ready for the PS4.
 
This is GDDR5 (what is in the PS4 and all PC GPU's):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDDR5

This is DDR3 (this is used for PC system memory and rumoured to be the main memory for the new Xbox):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM

Read those and understand the differences.


Thanks, I already read those.

I still have no idea what advantage there is to use GDDR5 as system memory instead of DDR3 or if there is an advantage at all (at the moment). In case of the latter, will there be an advantage a few years into the next console cycle?
 
This is what happens when the hype train goes terribly off the rails. Durango reveal and final PS4 specs are gonna get people real excited for nothing.
 
i seriously have had to just stop coming to GAF after the PS4 announcement because of these god damn RAM threads. 8 gigs of system RAM is great - and fairly common/cheap on the PC. Reading those PS4 threads about how developers would have to lower the settings for PS4 -> PC ports was mind boggling.
 
From what I understand apparently DDR3 is faster than GDDR3, so can we say that DDR4 will be faster than GDDR5? At least the 176 GB/s PS4 ram I mean.
 
From what I understand apparently DDR3 is faster than GDDR3, so can we say that DDR4 will be faster than GDDR5? At least the 176 GB/s PS4 ram I mean.

On the PC side, it seems so but this isn't really a talking point when PC will always have monster specs ahead of consoles for the most part.

For the consoles space, 8GB of GDDR5 is fantastic.
 
I want to know why they went through the trouble of getting 8 GB of GDDR5 memory and paired it with a hard drive instead of an SSD.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.
 
On the PC side, it seems so but this isn't really a talking point when PC will always have monster specs ahead of consoles for the most part.

For the consoles space, 8GB of GDDR5 is fantastic.

I really don't get it then, if DDR4 can outperform or at least match the speed of the PS4 GDDR5 then why didn't Sony go with DDR4? sure they might launch in 2014 but they will save like $80-100 of the console manufacturing cost too.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.

Terrible post.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.

Uh no. Windows has allocated < 15% of my RAM currently, and that's with origin, skype, fraps, mass effect 3, and chrome open. Not all of that RAM is in active use either. Since Vista, Windows pre-allocates a certain amount of my memory so any applications that are opened can use the pre-allocated RAM immediately.

Also, it's GDDR5 not DDR5.

And furthermore, PC's have two RAM pools (GPU RAM typically GDDR5 in most new cards) and main memory. A decent processor will enjoy the main memory for computations done while the GPU will crunch numbers data that resides in the GDDR5.
 
I'm laughing so hard I'm literally in tears here

God I love generation transitions

Right. I can see these people running around their rooms, crazy RAM scenarios driving them bonkers. 8GB of GDDR5 in the PS4 means very little to the PC and it is yet to be seen what it will mean to the console war outside of crazy threads on NeoGAF.

And to answer the question in the original post: No, I would not. RAM isn't even close to being one of the bottlenecks in my PC. If you want a faster PC you spend your money on the bottlenecks, not on making parts that are fast enough even faster. The same person dying for GDDR5 as the system RAM in his PC is probably the guy who put a spoiler and a ground effects kit on his Ford Escort.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.

No, read the rest of the thread.

And just so you know, the PS4 will require much more memory than 0.5gb.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.

Seriously, this is why i took a GAF break. There are at least 6 threads with posts exactly like this. it is so, so sad.
 
Have a look at this:

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/arbeitsspeicher/2012/test-welchen-ram-fuer-intel-ivy-bridge/3/

As you can see in the final performance ranking (upper chart), getting more CPU bandwidth increases performance by 1% on average. That's why you don't need GDDR5 as your system memory.
Honestly, this thread is weird. Not to mention if CPU's where bandwidth starved you'd see the shift already in the high end market.
I want to know why they went through the trouble of getting 8 GB of GDDR5 memory and paired it with a hard drive instead of an SSD.
Because they are expensive? A good 250GB drive is 150+ dollars.
 
I really don't get it then, if DDR4 can outperform or at least match the speed of the PS4 GDDR5 then why didn't Sony go with DDR4? sure they might launch in 2014 but they will save like $80-100 of the console manufacturing cost too.

I'm not in the assembly lines or tech meetings to know manufacturing costs but whatever it is, I'm sure the GDDR5 option was a good but potentially not as cost consuming of an option.

For the current spec of the consoles and rumored DDR3 in Durango, it's definitely good. In relation to PC's, it may be outpaced at some point but they really didn't skimp on the memory so I do kind of share the consensus opinion on the memory being the most high end thing on the platform.
 
What I have learned from this thread is that DDR4 may actually be coming out in this reasonably near future.

I would have had no idea because nobody talks about RAM.
 
I really don't get it then, if DDR4 can outperform or at least match the speed of the PS4 GDDR5 then why didn't Sony go with DDR4? sure they might launch in 2014 but they will save like $80-100 of the console manufacturing cost too.

Uh, spec only recently completed in September 2012.
Manufacturing yields are currently low = Very high cost.
It allow Sony to release earlier. Launching a year later than one competitor and 2 years later than another would have been plain terrible for Sony.
 
Thanks, I already read those.

I still have no idea what advantage there is to use GDDR5 as system memory instead of DDR3 or if there is an advantage at all (at the moment). In case of the latter, will there be an advantage a few years into the next console cycle?

Because the next consoles are APUs, the CPU and GPU sit in the same chip and share the memory. If you used the memory that the CPU is fine with, you would use DDR3 and starve the GPU.
 
So why don't you give some constructive input and point out what's wrong with it, instead of whining about it?

Because I already read the thread, and seeing people post bullshit after explanations have been posted is ridiculous:

damaph said:

Originally Posted by SPE:

CPUs and GPUs have different RAM requirements.

CPUs want RAM with low latency, so they can very quickly access and move small chunks of data around.
GPUs want RAM with high bandwidth, so they can move large chunks of data.

DDR3 is suited for CPUs. It is low latency, but also low bandwidth. It is the defacto RAM found in PCs and servers. You spend $10,000 on a server, and it will use DDR3.

GDDR5 is suited for GPUs. It is high latency, but also high bandwidth. Graphics cars above level entry will use GDDR5 for VRAM.

The Xbox 360 was the pioneer for using GDDR (in its case, GDDR3) for both system and VRAM. The PS4 is following suit. While this might be fine for dedicate gaming machines, for genral purpose computing and CPU intensive work, you want low latency RAM. Which is currently DDR3.

There is a reason the next Xbox has gone for the DDR3 + EDRAM approach. MS have designed the console for more than games. The non gaming apps want DDR3. The EDRAM is there to mitigate the low bandwidth main RAM to a certain degree. Sony seem to have designed the PS4 as a pure bread gaming console. Different priorities resulted in different RAM architectures.

TL;DR you don't want GDDR5 as system RAM in a PC. When DDR5 finally comes to market, it might have best of both worlds. Low latency for CPUs and high bandwidth for GPUs. Only then would you want it as system RAM.

Originally Posted by Iced_Eagle:
Great explanation. However, I believe you meant to say "DDR4" instead of "DDR5" in your tl;dr. DDR4 just recently got wrapped up as a spec. Work hasn't begun on DDR5.

Some other things that I think are important to note:

1) The 3 and the 5 are the version numbers, but for separate things. DDR5 is not a thing yet (they're still working on DDR4 which should start releasing this year or next). It's very important that you have the "G" on there (which stands for graphics). It pains me when people see GDDR5 and DDR3 and think one is the obviously superior version. They are two separate products (imagine if the X360 was named Xbox 2. This is similar to someone saying PS3 > XB2, even though they're two separate product lines).

2) GDDR5 is actually based on DDR3 (as was GDDR4). They're basically two sides of the same coin. DDR3 is focused on low-latency, but with the tradeoff of lower-bandwidth, and GDDR5 has higher bandwidth, at the cost of higher-latency.


These should become mandatory reading fro those people who don't know how computers work.
 
It's really hard to say as most PC need to give windows 30-40% of their RAM allocation and even top of the range halo cards like the Titan don't have 8gb DDR5.

PS4 having 8GB DDR5 Is a major blow to PC and XBOX gamers as they've previously had the upper hand in western developed games.

PS4 has 8gb of which probably 7.5 is available for games while the average PC has 30-40% of 4-8GB.

Sony may have stolen microsofts playback next gen but they've done it in a bold and brave way.

billy_madison_principal_no_points_mercy_soul_movie_image_01.jpg
 
oh thanks, I overlooked that post.

Then why the hell is Sony putting 8 gigs of that in the PS4, after reading this it seems so be completely pointless.

It's not terrible though and it's going to perform very well. The PS4 is going to be a very good console and a huge step up from the PS3. Isn't that what people wanted? If it works it works I suppose.
 
DDR4 is something that is only being demoed right now. It should launch with Haswell or hopefully by this time next year. GDDR5 is best for graphics but almost anything can see a benefit. Some on PC area already using even DDR3 modules to make RAM DISKS. Pretty cool.

Interesting. I didn't realize that DDR4 was so close to release. By the time I build my new PC(probably late 2014) I might have to get DDR4. I wonder if that will effect my plan to get 16 gigs of RAM for my new PC.
 
Think about an Internet connection. your latency is ping. Your bandwidth is like 5 MB/sec or whatever. You need low latency/ping for good online play or else you experience lag, bandwidth is less important. You want to rapidly send small packets of data very quickly. That's low latency, low bandwidth. But you need high bandwidth to download big files, ping is irrelevant there. So latency is more important in some cases, and bandwidth in others.

Now think about a CPU and a GPU.

A CPU needs to do lots of calculations on lots of different data: lots of input/output from players and network, AI, etc (I'm not a game programmer). The lower latency and lower bandwidth of DDR3 is better for this than GDDR5.

A GPU needs to do lots of huge calculations on large data sets: polygons, textures, lighting, etc. GDDR5's higher latency and higher bandwidth is better than DDR3 for this.

Obviously it's best to have lowest latency and highest bandwidth, but this is the real world and there are trade-offs to what you can do.
 
It's not terrible though and it's going to perform very well. The PS4 is going to be a very good console and a huge step up from the PS3. Isn't that what people wanted? If it works it works I suppose.

Right. I'm more interested in the number. 8 gigs is great - it's what I currently have in my PC, and NO GAMES USE IT UP. The most I've ever pushed is in Minecraft while simultaneously running the server while also playing on it, and I was getting around 4 Gigs used (no current AAA games use much RAM). This paired with the PS4 using x86 architecture is great news for PC ports and games made in the future. It's the people running around touting this superior GDDR5 technology that make me want to rip my hair out. You notice RAM when you don't have it, not when you have an extra 4 gigs sitting around.

I buy consoles solely for their exclusives, so in terms of hardware, I'm more excited about what it means for PC ports and what it means for future games. Seeing the PS4 announcement turn into a console war is, while unsurprising, pretty sad.

EDIT:

heyf00L said:
Think about an Internet connection. your latency is ping. Your bandwidth is like 5 MB/sec or whatever. You need low latency/ping for good online play or else you experience lag, bandwidth is less important. You want to rapidly send small packets of data very quickly. That's low latency, low bandwidth. But you need high bandwidth to download big files, ping is irrelevant there. So latency is more important in some cases, and bandwidth in others.

Now think about a CPU and a GPU.

A CPU needs to do lots of calculations on lots of different data: lots of input/output from players and network, AI, etc (I'm not a game programmer). The lower latency and lower bandwidth of DDR3 is better for this than GDDR5.

A GPU needs to do lots of huge calculations on large data sets: polygons, textures, lighting, etc. GDDR5's higher latency and higher bandwidth is better than DDR3 for this.

Obviously it's best to have lowest latency and highest bandwidth, but this is the real world and there are trade-offs to what you can do.

Sing it from the mountains man, for my sanity.
 
This thread has been fascinating in few different ways. What I don't get is the mentality to assert yourself in a technical conversation if you don't understand the technology. There are posters here that have a better understanding and will call you out and make you look foolish if you make claims that you absolutely cannot backup with actual knowledge. It can be entertaining though. I have just enough knowledge to know that I don't know enough to make any claims but can understand the explanations from those who know what they are talking about.
 
Right. I'm more interested in the number. 8 gigs is great - it's what I currently have in my PC, and NO GAMES USE IT UP. The most I've ever pushed is in Minecraft while simultaneously running the server while also playing on it, and I was getting around 4 Gigs used (no current AAA games use much RAM). This paired with the PS4 using x86 architecture is great news for PC ports and games made in the future. It's the people running around touting this superior GDDR5 technology that make me want to rip my hair out. You notice RAM when you don't have it, not when you have an extra 4 gigs sitting around.

I buy consoles solely for their exclusives, so in terms of hardware, I'm more excited about what it means for PC ports and what it means for future games. Seeing the PS4 announcement turn into a console war is, while unsurprising, pretty sad.

EDIT:



Sing it from the mountains man, for my sanity.

Well hopefully this means we'll start getting 64-bit games so our RAM can be used up more. The reason people keep touting GDDR5 is because of their lack of knowledge and I would imagine their happiness of being able to get away from the PS3/360 hardware.

I see the PS4 as good news for everyone in gaming. Maybe not MS or Nin, but PC and Sony users at least.
 
Well hopefully this means we'll start getting 64-bit games so our RAM can be used up more. The reason people keep touting GDDR5 is because of their lack of knowledge and I would imagine their happiness of being able to get away from the PS3/360 hardware.

I see the PS4 as good news for everyone in gaming. Maybe not MS or Nin, but PC and Sony users at least.

Yup, other than seeing Deep Down, it was that glorious x86 that made me the happiest. If games could start taking full advantage of my PC's hardware, it would be a good day.

FelixLighter said:
This thread has been fascinating in few different ways. What I don't get is the mentality to assert yourself in a technical conversation if you don't understand the technology. There are posters here that have a better understanding and will call you out and make you look foolish if you make claims that you absolutely cannot backup with actual knowledge. It can be entertaining though. I have just enough knowledge to know that I don't know enough to make any claims but can understand the explanations from those who know what they are talking about.

I wish more people had this mindset before they posted.
 
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