gunslikewhoa
Member
Yeah. People being angry about an ending they don't like and people being angry about being lied to regarding the actual content of a game are totally the same thing.
Do you even hear what you're saying?
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WOW OMG: Steam is refunding No Man's Sky even if you played more then 2 hours
- Thread starter Tony Iron Man Stark
- Start date
Yeah. People being angry about an ending they don't like and people being angry about being lied to regarding the actual content of a game are totally the same thing.
Do you even hear what you're saying?
I don't think I've ever seen this disclaimer on any other Steam game before, even on games that have gotten worse Steam reviews.
Putting that disclaimer on there is a red flag for anyone considering a purchase at this point. Therefore this disclaimer which is clearly on the store page, above the buy button, goes in some way to making devs accept responsibility for their end product and not just put out amazing trailers and a mediocre game.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Plenty of people were just as angry about Mass Effect saying that EA lied to them too. Same bullshit.
Good. I'm happy this game is failing.
FloatingDivider
Member
False equivalence much?
He's saying whatever he can to make his argument work. Sort of like Sean Murray said whatever he could to make his game sell.
Hey I can do this false equivalence shit too, I am so great, everybody loves me.
Great post.
I agree entirely with this. A very short window where refunds are automated, covering the majority of stuff like it just not working or not being what was advertised. Backed up by a ticket system that actually deals with tech issues like instability after dozens of hours, offering a fix or a refund. At the moment the ticket system allows them to default to the two-hour window as a safety net to avoid dealing with such issues.
I'd like to see Sony offer some kind of automated system too, as 'all sales are final, no refunds' is just blatantly in breach of consumer law here and presumably elsewhere too.
eXistor
Member
He kinda right though isn't he? I mean we've been led to believe Mass Effect's choices throughout years of gameplay had meaning and it turned out in the end, that no they didn't. At all. It's not quite on the same level, I agree, as it really only affects the ending of ME3, but his point remains.
/edit: I should note I haven't read this thread, just this last page (in case I'm missing the point people are making)
gunslikewhoa
Member
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I'm so angry people are angry. I'm not angry, why are they angry? All this getting angry over nothing makes me so angry.
Stop, you're confusing karma.
I don't think people are robbing the developers, but I do think that if you put in more then like 12 hours you shouldn't ask for a refund, it's kind of sleazy. Like eating a meal and then asking for a refund because you didn't like it. Games have been over promising for a long ass time, advent rising comes to mind, this is nothing new. There's a difference between getting a refund cus the product is broken and asking for a refund because you regret wasting your money and you know you'll probably get refunded if you whine enough.
Maybe next time don't preorder the big game, and then don't rush out and buy it blindly on day one, it doesn't matter what the salesman tells you (and not to say the salesman isn't partly to blame), but buyer beware.
Like if I bought the matrix trilogy and watched the whole thing twice should I be able to ask for a refund cus those movies are trash?
Yeah good point. Nevermind, NMS is pretty rad.
I'm not celebrating. I wish this game was good, its got too many mining and gathering elements for me to want to play it and I think I have a better time going to the OT and checking out the best discoveries, but I do hope that people who have bought it are enjoying it.
If they were sold on something and its not in the game, people do deserve to get a refund.
On this note, I've always thought there wasn't enough gamer resistance to changes imposed by developers. Like aside from the media, there isn't anyone representing gamers and what gamers want. It is literally down to voting with your wallet, and sometimes that doesn't work. What I mean is, the things many of us complain about like DLC, episodic content, season passes, free to play, microtransactions all of that stuff people end up buying so they just keep doing more of it. And a lot of it is great content, but there's some absolute turds there as well. If I were working in another industry like say the construction industry, there would be set standards in place to make sure, that the product I buy was what I had expected. There's no standards except for metacritic/steam reviews, there's no one standing up for gamer's rights, there's no union.
So Steam putting up a disclaimer about refunding is a red flag for people looking to buy the game, because I don't think I've seen them do that before. And if they are doing that and it hurts their sales, then they would be making a stand with the consumer.
But what if you by the matrix trilogy and half way through watching the first one you realize that you actually received Hannah Montana the movie and then the discs stop working and you lose your job and your house catches fire and then you die.
Wouldn't you ask for a refund then?
Hey, I'm pissed about the console exclusivity too but don't confuse me with the other try-hard.
Not if you are a decent person, because didn't you experience something, even if it wasn't what you paid for?
You are insinuating people are demanding Sean "repent for his sins" instead of just offer an explanation, apology, and a solution.
I think this is more akin to ordering a meat platter, then finding out halfway through eating it that they only gave you half of the meat platter you paid for and they said would come in the menu.
You go to question the chefs or the management about the mysterious half missing meat platter that you paid for, perhaps to ask when they can provide the rest of the meat, but they've all suddenly disappeared.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Sean is a very rich man now. His lawyers are probably telling him to keep quiet in order to let it all blow over.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
Some of the mental gymnastics in this thread to defend Hello Games and Sean Murray are amazing.
I think it's very surprising that Sony is actually offering refunds like they are here. It's pretty much unprecedented for them right? I thought up until now Sony's policy was essentially "You get one refund per account, and that refund will only be in the most extreme circumstances."
That's the big news here, and if it paves the way for more consumer rights in the digital distribution space of video games then I'm all for it.
The frustrating thing about the way Hello Games handled the development and marketing of No Man's Sky is their communication. There is definitely a conversation to be had around the $60 price tag, but the reason why Hello Games has completely stained their reputation and will now just be a joke in the industry is because of how badly they handled communicating to consumers. Their radio silence is only making things worse too.
Overall I'm glad that people who feel that they weren't happy with the product they received are able to get their money back. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean that it's exempt from consumer rights and getting a refund. I think in this particular case it's a genuine reason for consumers wanting their money back and it is solely because of how badly Hello Games handled the communication and marketing of this game.
I thought Sean Murray's tweet the day before release about the game not having multiplayer was such a shitty move, after years of marketing and many interviews of saying 'Yes' to the question 'Does this game have multiplayer?'... you can't just do that man. Not cool!
That's the big news here, and if it paves the way for more consumer rights in the digital distribution space of video games then I'm all for it.
The frustrating thing about the way Hello Games handled the development and marketing of No Man's Sky is their communication. There is definitely a conversation to be had around the $60 price tag, but the reason why Hello Games has completely stained their reputation and will now just be a joke in the industry is because of how badly they handled communicating to consumers. Their radio silence is only making things worse too.
Overall I'm glad that people who feel that they weren't happy with the product they received are able to get their money back. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean that it's exempt from consumer rights and getting a refund. I think in this particular case it's a genuine reason for consumers wanting their money back and it is solely because of how badly Hello Games handled the communication and marketing of this game.
I thought Sean Murray's tweet the day before release about the game not having multiplayer was such a shitty move, after years of marketing and many interviews of saying 'Yes' to the question 'Does this game have multiplayer?'... you can't just do that man. Not cool!
Yes. As soon as I opened it and saw that it was Hannah Montana I would either return it for a refund or say damnit and throw it in the trash and kiss my $20 good bye and the go on the Internet and create a post on NeoGAF about how Walmart is the fucking worst and nobody should buy movies from that satanic company.
Either or.
I'm just doing my best, like you,
like any other 1st class citizen
I think the correct approach to refunds is the Amazon way. Assume that the customer isn't trying to screw you over, and take a loss on those who are. If someone has a Steam library of dozens of games, and aren't trying to refund games often, I don't think there should be a debate about allowing it. And, like Amazon, they should ban an account from purchasing any further games if they detect abuse (after a warning). Also, if there isn't an ETA from the developer on fixes for a problem that is hampering an individual's experience 'wait for a patch' shouldn't be a response to someone requesting a refund, and a refund should be allow if that ETA passes without the patch resolving the problem.
You gonna quote me on where I said the game should burn in a special place in hell or are you just shooting blanks?
What does that even mean?
It's technically in the game... files.
He thinks people who prefer Xbox like to shit on NMS because it's tied to Sony.
I think DeepEnigma would call it "persecution complex", or something along those lines.
SuperBanana
Banned
Wow, just wow. This sounds like the logic of a greasy used car salesman or a scummy real estate agent. "Aaah, so I lied a little and it's done 100,000 miles more than I said and the fanbelt is broken. I can't remember everything I promised! Tough!".
It's called consumer rights. Look it up. If a product is broken or not as described then you're entitled to a refund. It's also a federal law in many countries.
If someone bought NMS and returns it because of it's crashes. That should absolutely become the norm.
If someone bought NMS because he followed the various preview and expected it to have fully functional astro-physics or was somehow 'scientific'. That's borderline, because the final product never promised such a thing. I mean Sony should do this to keep people how place non-refundable pre-orders happy.
It's not OK when people play for hours find the game somewhat enjoyable, return to social media, read about how Murray is a liar and the general backlash and refund the game because now they feel betrayed without actually ever been betrayed because they just thought that the game sounded rad and there was hype. The last reason is a terrible precedent and the Mass Effect analogy explains quite well why.
After reading some of the negative Steam reviews I suspect a lot of the refunders will fall into the latter category. Those "i played it for 50 hours and I didn't have fun for a moment" reviews are always very strange to me.
Is this real? Where am I? That's so sad.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
This is what sucks so much. Especially in the face of all of the developers out there who work their butts off every day trying to make a living by doing things honestly and openly. Stuff like this just puts a shadow over the entire industry because people start to see all devs in a more negative light and It's sad that it's being defended by so many.
Also, for as many as there are good ones you just know that there are other devs out there that are straight up out to get your money and others that just may be down and out that are going to be tempted after looking at this situation thinking that consumers are so trained to take it up the rear that we will even defend them even if they trick us into giving them our money. And not enough people care to do anything about it so why not give it a try themselves?
Heck, the big guys in the board meetings are probably going to be throwing parties if no one actually files a class action against HG for this because they know the line for how far they can push us and how much they can get away with has been pushed even further back.
robertsan21
Member
Wow people are actually bothering with refunds for this game?
A refund should only be allowed within 2 hours of gameplay. Sony fix this shit.
The game is broken due to them rushing it out" assassins creed and most Ubisoft games"
False marketing that shows graphics better than it is when it ships.
A refund should only be allowed within 2 hours of gameplay. Sony fix this shit.
The game is broken due to them rushing it out" assassins creed and most Ubisoft games"
False marketing that shows graphics better than it is when it ships.
CaviarMeths
Member
I'm sorry it hurts your feelings so much that people are getting refunds for a broken, defective product that was marketed on dozens upon dozens of well-documented statements of deception, mislead, and outright lies from the director of the game himself.
What Sean and HG did, there are consumer protections for this in almost every developed nation on earth. It's even a felony in some places.
But no, tell us more about how this is acceptable business practice.
thisisneogaf.gif
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
TheBryanJZX90
Member
You're talking about two different periods of time.
A developer talking about a game they are in the process of making automatically is not talking about a product for sale. There is no product for sale yet. Reasonable people understand that works in progress are just that, works in progress, and understand that what the developer is saying may not necessarily reflect the final product, even if the developer at the time believes it to be true in good faith, because things can always change about a work in progress.
A car salesman describing a car is describing a product for sale, a tangible thing which already exists. A car salesman is lying at the time he makes the statement, and the statement is made at a time where the customer has no reason to think it would be inaccurate.
So, for example, if a game developer were to say "yes my game has feature x" AFTER the game has already been released and is for sale, then yes he is a scummy car salesman. Before, not so much.
Hello Games were blatantly lying about the features of the game on the day of release. 'During development sometimes features change' has absolutely nothing to do with it.
It's just smart business to assume that a customer that buys dozens of games from you over several years, and occassionally wants a refund for something that they say didn't work or wasn't as advertised, isn't lying. Their account is worth so much more than quibbling over every specific item to the point where they take their business for every future game they buy over the next decade elsewhere.
I mean, I order 90% of the games and books and DVDs (and dozens of other small items) that I buy from Amazon. The only company I spend more with in a given year is our local supermarket for the weekly shop. The reason I do so is a) it's cheap and b) the returns policy is good, but I'll also buy there even if a game is a couple of quid cheaper elsewhere, out of a) habit (laziness rather than loyalty) and b) the returns policy again. It's such accounts that they make the big money on over a period of years, not individual discs.
Digital stores don't have the same pressure, Steam has PC gamers over a barrel and Sony only feels the pinch when new consoles roll around, and even then I suspect their customer service is way down the list of what people look for when choosing between two consoles.
As we move towards a future of all games sold through digital stores, I hope the refunds policies are updated to represent how complex modern games are and how bugs can occur as save files become bigger, how friendlier customer service leads to more games bought and how regional consumer law impacts their sites. Sony's blanket policy of 'all sales are final, you get one refund per account as 'goodwill'' is ridiculous considering the multiple debacles of Skyrim, NMS etc.
It's okay to have a persecution complex. I'm here with you.
Wow shit. The people calling for Sean Murray and Hello Games to fail have this wrong.
Yes he's lied and created false promises. He and his team released a broken game but they are trying to fix it. At this point they are probably shitting themselves and don't know what to do. Their company could be potentially ruined because of the backlash and I don't think they deserve to lose their jobs.
Those who seeked a refund only did so because they either hit problems or couldn't look past the lies. We simply didn't want to wait weeks for patches and our time limit for a refund was fast running out. We didn't do it out of spite to say "fuck you Sean Murray". Please don't jump on the team just because.
Yes he's lied and created false promises. He and his team released a broken game but they are trying to fix it. At this point they are probably shitting themselves and don't know what to do. Their company could be potentially ruined because of the backlash and I don't think they deserve to lose their jobs.
Those who seeked a refund only did so because they either hit problems or couldn't look past the lies. We simply didn't want to wait weeks for patches and our time limit for a refund was fast running out. We didn't do it out of spite to say "fuck you Sean Murray". Please don't jump on the team just because.
Sean promised a lot of things that aren't in the game. We don't have to exaggerate with "full astrophysics" to clearly identify how much he lied. Just because he didn't promise everything in the universe doesn't mean he didn't promise a universe.
Why worry about opportunists? If they take advantage, it is a fucking liar being taken advantage of. I don't think that's right in a vacuum, but this isn't a vacuum. It's a shitshow started by the developer. Why are people defending the cons and not defending the marks here? Why so much consideration for those that have taken advantage and not those who have been taken advantage of?
Y'all are trippin.
Holy shit, people are really talking NMS badly. Those who are alleging Murray is some kind of evil mastermind, scheming to get money from innocent consumers have serious issues. It was obvious from the start when the game showed a gun that evaporated things and materials came out that this was the kind of game it'd be; anyone who was pining for this to be the next Minecraft, the game to end all games, was building NMS up for failure. Pre-release footage and plans are not final, how are so many people that naive? Sure, HelloGames didn't deliver, but if you bought the game based on ancient trailers and interviews without even waiting to get hands-on impressions, you played yourself. The people who got burned on NMS should have just waited on the reviews and videos to come out. Hopefully some managed to get a refund. For everyone else this is a lesson on common sense, hopefully. I thought GAF was above this kind of Youtube comment style shitposting, but instead it's thread upon thread of LIAR, CRIMINAL, or TRASH.
robertsan21
Member
In one way I'm glad that gamers are doing this. Hopefully Sony, ms start forcing publishers to market the games correctly with relevant info on what platform they are showing footage from and also won't fake the games visual to make it more than they can deliver in day one. I'm looking at u ubisoft.
I'm tired if being shown pc footage in ultra settings when they should be showing PS4 version.
I'm tired if being shown pc footage in ultra settings when they should be showing PS4 version.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
You're confusing the economic interests of the digital storefront with the economic interests of the developer. Steam or Amazon can afford to refund a single purchase for repeat customers. But if many repeat customers all try and abuse their purchasing power by demanding a refund of the same game, that won't affect Steam overall but it could be devastating for the developer.
And to be clear, I don't really give a shit about NMS or its developer, my main concern is for when the angry consumers move to their next target, and start stifling the market so devs stop talking about the games they are making and leave it up to their PR people, and devs stop taking risks on things that they're not 100% sure they will be able to deliver or things they know vocal parts of their audience may not like.
SuperBanana
Banned
Work in progress means you might not see a certain location or an enemy might have been removed or a part of the story changed. Not most of the major aspects of the game like multiplayer. Name another game where the developer said the game has multiplayer it be completely false. He was saying these lies WELL past the point you would have known that it wasn't going to be in the game.
This isn't like Mass Effect 3 where the ending was weak. Or Spore where the gameplay didn't really hold up to the concept. This is MOST of the marketing behind the game being a total lie, and worse yet, the false "gameplay" videos are STILL up on Steam. Do you think a month after release it's still a "work in progress"? Clearly you don't by your last sentence. Even if Sean said these features are still coming and will roll out then you at least have something to aim for but nope. Dead silent. And silence is deafening.