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WoW Open Beta
- Thread starter Bristow
- Start date
MrAngryFace
Banned
THANK YOU FOR BALANCE BLIZZARD!
Well WOW confirms it, I hate MMORPGs. It's nice to roam around in some massive world. I rode an airship for a while just looking at all the huge buildings I was flying by.
But there is just no immediacy. You sink hours and hours into it just to do anything cool or fun. I don't have time to spend 10 minutes to just walk to a quest point.
But there is just no immediacy. You sink hours and hours into it just to do anything cool or fun. I don't have time to spend 10 minutes to just walk to a quest point.
Malakhov
Banned
Wow, that was surprising :lolMrAngryFace said:
Anyways, they'll either nerf the pallies or finally upgrade the warriors, they need some major tinkering now.
Hunters needed tinkering, they got it.
Paladins neded tinkering, they got it.
I highly doubt WoW's warrior is gonna be anything like EQ's warrior, what I mean is they REALLY don't want that whole main tank beeing healed by clerics an whole raid.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Your blind faith in blizzard is disturbing, but kudos for carrying the torch.
krypt0nian
Banned
dem said:
But its a deeply satisfying nothing! WoW Alliance, bitches!!!
btw when you play your favorite videogames all proud of yourself, you're doing "nothing" too.
Let me know when that gets the lawn mowed or money on the table. :loland without a weapon, while the warrior is using arguably the best 2h axe in the game (unless there's some major awesome axe that drops off one of the new raid bosses or is some epic item we haven't found yet) and has spent all their talents focusing on nothing but raising damage in battle stance (which favors 2h weapons).Shouta said:
blizzard changed warriors around a ton with the last patch because they were really just taunt bots in instances, and a lot of people haven't adapted. it still isn't working quite right but I'm almost positive they'll get it all sorted out with just the next patch, simply because all along the warrior has almost always been one of the best classes.
krypt0nian
Banned
Malakhov said:
You're getting too close!!!!...shut down operations!.....Protocal 1182-7n in effect!
Shouta
Member
Paladins also have high defense (and insanely high at that level I bet) and have the ability to heal. If you notice, the entire fight took nearly 8 minutes to be over and several times throughout the fight, the Paladin was at half life before healing themselves. The Paladin ended up just knicking the guy to death because the Warrior can't heal himself.
So really, it seems to me that Paladins don't need a nerf but that other classes need to be able to get around inherent advantages built for the class for PvP (i.e. Paladin ability to Heal coupled with high defense). A nice defense cutting ability would've made that much faster for the Warrior I bet.
On another note, do shields block if you don't have it drawn alongside your weapon? If it does, that needs to be fixed heh.
warriors wear the same armor paladins have and get more hp, so it's not a matter of defense. unarmed, no class does good damage. the paladin beat him not because he could heal (of course, there's no way to interrupt spells as a warrior now without a shield, but you don't need to interrupt heals) but because of a bug with seal of righteousness where it always procs unarmed. bugs aside paladins need nerfed because they make the warrior useless for the alliance side as they can tank better now, and do more damage. The warrior should have won that fight and probably would have if seal of righteousness wasn't bugged (at least I hope so) but it's not that video that really shows paladins as being overpowered, it's a bunch of other things
and shields always work if you have one equipped, that doesn't need changing. the paladin in that video removed his weapon but kept his shield. the warrior could also heal himself mid-battle, mind you, with first aid (which is a really good profession to pick up for warriors so they have less downtime) so it's not really the heals that matter - I've seen paladins lose to warriors before this patch (when they were still one of the best solo pvp classes and duelers) and it was because the warrior played smarter. It's just that if a warrior using arguably the best warrior weapon in the game (aside from super rare epic items) can't beat a paladin fighting without a weapon, then it shows the sad state of affairs warriors are in.
it's a combination of warrior nerfs (really, there's NO WAY he should have lost that duel, but it's been explained as a bug, so that's excusable) and paladin buffs that make the warrior look so bad in that video. but even disregarding the video, paladins are just way too strong... they do more melee damage than anybody but rogues (and get all the same good melee weapon types as warriors), wear the best armor in the game, heal themselves effectively, can stun, and have multiple invulnerability spells, along with basically an extra life once an hour in lay on hands. no class needs to be buffed along the line of the paladin or everybody would have godmode (instead of just paladins). paladins will get nerfed, but don't worry, they'll still be a really strong class. just not far and away superior to warriors like they are now. you gotta keep in mind that if paladins are better in every way than warriors then it makes the horde severely gimped, because shamans can't do nearly as well as warriors and I don't think blizzard would like to give shamans plate armor instead of fixing warriors.
if there wasn't the seal of righteousness bug, that paladin would have lost in... I dunno, probably over a minute just from all the ways they have to extend their lives. He would've been hitting the warrior for 1 damage while the warrior would've probably been hitting him for 200-300ish with that axe and arms talents, plus maybe the occasional mortal strike or something (the end-talent of the arms tree) for maybe double that amount.
Even with paladins as overpowered as they are now, the classes that counter them (warlocks, mages, priests) can still beat them one on one, so it's not that broken... and I'm not sure if I could beat a paladin now on my shaman or not. They're kind of a counter to paladins, but only because shamans can dispel one of their invulnerabilities (and all their blessings), and interrupt their healing, and have better mana and some offensive spells (instead of seals/judgment) they can use while kiting them. But still, this is like back in the first phase of the closed beta, when paladins were by far superior to warriors in every way. They wound up getting nerfed really hard in the next patch and yet they were still an awesome class, so I'd say that's going to happen again. the main thing is blizzard made the paladin's gameplay way better than it used to be, but at the same time they probably didn't realize how some of the abilities could/would be used.
and shields always work if you have one equipped, that doesn't need changing. the paladin in that video removed his weapon but kept his shield. the warrior could also heal himself mid-battle, mind you, with first aid (which is a really good profession to pick up for warriors so they have less downtime) so it's not really the heals that matter - I've seen paladins lose to warriors before this patch (when they were still one of the best solo pvp classes and duelers) and it was because the warrior played smarter. It's just that if a warrior using arguably the best warrior weapon in the game (aside from super rare epic items) can't beat a paladin fighting without a weapon, then it shows the sad state of affairs warriors are in.
it's a combination of warrior nerfs (really, there's NO WAY he should have lost that duel, but it's been explained as a bug, so that's excusable) and paladin buffs that make the warrior look so bad in that video. but even disregarding the video, paladins are just way too strong... they do more melee damage than anybody but rogues (and get all the same good melee weapon types as warriors), wear the best armor in the game, heal themselves effectively, can stun, and have multiple invulnerability spells, along with basically an extra life once an hour in lay on hands. no class needs to be buffed along the line of the paladin or everybody would have godmode (instead of just paladins). paladins will get nerfed, but don't worry, they'll still be a really strong class. just not far and away superior to warriors like they are now. you gotta keep in mind that if paladins are better in every way than warriors then it makes the horde severely gimped, because shamans can't do nearly as well as warriors and I don't think blizzard would like to give shamans plate armor instead of fixing warriors.
if there wasn't the seal of righteousness bug, that paladin would have lost in... I dunno, probably over a minute just from all the ways they have to extend their lives. He would've been hitting the warrior for 1 damage while the warrior would've probably been hitting him for 200-300ish with that axe and arms talents, plus maybe the occasional mortal strike or something (the end-talent of the arms tree) for maybe double that amount.
Even with paladins as overpowered as they are now, the classes that counter them (warlocks, mages, priests) can still beat them one on one, so it's not that broken... and I'm not sure if I could beat a paladin now on my shaman or not. They're kind of a counter to paladins, but only because shamans can dispel one of their invulnerabilities (and all their blessings), and interrupt their healing, and have better mana and some offensive spells (instead of seals/judgment) they can use while kiting them. But still, this is like back in the first phase of the closed beta, when paladins were by far superior to warriors in every way. They wound up getting nerfed really hard in the next patch and yet they were still an awesome class, so I'd say that's going to happen again. the main thing is blizzard made the paladin's gameplay way better than it used to be, but at the same time they probably didn't realize how some of the abilities could/would be used.
Fragamemnon
Member
Melee classes in general have problems with Paladins because of the huge armor and healing/invulnerability. Melee classes also have huge problems with Shamen becuase of the permasnaring (frost shock spam, earthbind totem). I think, at this point in the game, both of them are overpowered compared to the other classes, except the rogue, which is just about right and if played well can do ok against both the paladin and the shaman.
Warriors are a trainwreck right now. I think the big thing that is getting a lot of warriors is the loss of pummel. If the warrior still had pummel, they can stop the healing and get the paladin down to Execute range before the pummel-induced heal cooldown ends, and then they just might be able to get a big execute hit to finish the paladin off. Warriors are also fodder to warlocks and mages something terrible now.
Warriors need pummel back, and taunt changed back to where it was. A lot of the other changes were good, but those two nerfs sucked, sucked, sucked. As it is now, Stratholme and even Scholomance are practically impossible with 5 people.
Warriors are a trainwreck right now. I think the big thing that is getting a lot of warriors is the loss of pummel. If the warrior still had pummel, they can stop the healing and get the paladin down to Execute range before the pummel-induced heal cooldown ends, and then they just might be able to get a big execute hit to finish the paladin off. Warriors are also fodder to warlocks and mages something terrible now.
Warriors need pummel back, and taunt changed back to where it was. A lot of the other changes were good, but those two nerfs sucked, sucked, sucked. As it is now, Stratholme and even Scholomance are practically impossible with 5 people.
Not sure about pvp gripes, but they definately went in the right direction with taunt. They just need to adjust rage generation in defensive stance and the hate generated by different abilities. The new taunt is extremely awesome, and will make tanking in raids much more fun.
Where blizzard really fucked up with regards to aggro management is changing such a core mechanics so close to launch. They should have done this a loong time ago to allow for proper balance and content testing.
Where blizzard really fucked up with regards to aggro management is changing such a core mechanics so close to launch. They should have done this a loong time ago to allow for proper balance and content testing.
Fragamemnon
Member
The old taunt wasn't bad at all-just a few spams on the mob you were fighting to build up some hate, and you were, for the most part set. Yes, there were problems in defensive stance stemming from not having enough stuff to spend rage on, but that could have been dealt with separate from taunt, e.g. Execute (which rocks).
Now people are using demoralizing shout to gain and sustain aggro from a pull-kinda dumb. Not going to cut it at all against the tactics that are needed for the higher instances-mages AE'ing, and large amounts of healing. They "fixed" the problem by making warriors less of a tauntbot, but didn't deal with the underlying issue of performing that goal while retaining their ability to effectively manage a pull.
Fragamemnon said:
There were plenty of things to spend rage on. Watch some videos of Indalamar (nurfed) play. There were plenty of tools to use: Taunt, shield block. and revenge were staples of the warrior with the other abilities thrown in on demand (disarm/sunder melee, bash caster). The problem arose with the incredible crowd control capabilities of the class. Just read the official forum (if you dare) to see there are warriors that truly think tanking 10 mobs (trash and non) isn't overpowered.
Requiring the entire group to work together is a much more engaging and fun way to deal with aggro management. I play a warrior, and I felt like a hero last patch compared to this one.. but I am encouraged that Blizzard sees the problem with pre-patch warriors. It's just irritating they changed things so close to release. CB servers are empty cause everyone is playing with thier friends in open beta, so its difficult to test things.
I like that abilities are used to generate aggro instead of taunt. While I agree there was a fine line last patch between a taunt monkey and a good tank, I think there is even more room for skilled warrior play now. And the utility of other classes just got a major boost. What?.. you can pop back into stealth 90% of the time after sap? Awesome! Sheep?.. nice. Crowd control just became even more important. You are a shaman, a pally or a druid? Thats excellent.. tank a couple of the mobs from this next pull.
I'm rather encouraged by the new changes.. I just wish retail would get here cause I'm sick of leveling warriors and want to finally get started on my real toon already!
EDIT:
Forgot to comment on the new taunt. It really is very powerful.. gauranteed aggro will make tank rotations in raid content possible. And it's very useful in a group that can work together.. rogue has a finishing move or priest has a bomb heal? Taunt and aggro is yours.. your teamates just need to be aware of what taunt looks like and to ease up till you build some hate.
New patch going up on the servers.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-11-17-04.html
Major Changes
(detailed information for each below)
Durability
Item durability costs have been greatly decreased for Superior (blue) and Epic (purple) items.
Improved Unstuck
We've added an auto-unstuck feature that you can use prior to petitioning a GM. You can use this feature in situations where you are caught in a part of the terrain and cannot get out. You can find the unstuck option by clicking on the "Help Request" button found on the bottom right hand side of the user interface.
Spirit Healer
Using the Spirit Healer now results in a 25% loss in durability for a player's equipped gear and items in inventory, instead of the previous 100% loss. The length of resurrection sickness suffered from using the Spirit Healer has also been decreased to a maximum of 10 minutes.
Reagents
Reagent requirements have been removed from the following spells:
* Druid: Mark of the Wild
* Mage: Arcane Intellect
* Priest: Power Word: Fortitude
General Changes
(detailed information for each below)
General
* The Daze effect has been reworked to have a smaller chance of occurring against players level one to 29. The chance of a successful Daze effect against players 30 and above remains the same.
Talents
* The Improved Renew talent has been reduced in effectiveness per rank.
* The effect chance of Seal of Command has been reduced slightly.
* Redoubt now lasts either 10 seconds or five blocks, whichever comes first.
* The effect of Improved Moonfire has been reduced per rank.
Druid
* Bear Form has been improved to hold aggro more effectively.
* Growl: removed rage cost and global cooldown.
* Cower: increased the effect, added a cooldown.
Paladin
* Judgment: Moved to level 4.
* Divine Protection: Moved to level 6.
* Purify: Moved to level 8.
* Seal of the Crusader: Now introduced at level 6.
Rogue
* Feint: increased the effect, added a cooldown.
Shaman
* New Spell: Reincarnation (Level 30). Reincarnation is a passive ability that will give you the option of letting you resurrect yourself once every half hour upon death.
Warlock
* Inferno: Now dismisses your pet before casting to allow the Infernal to start Enslaved. Useable outdoors only.
Warrior
* Defensive Stance has been improved to hold aggro more effectively.
* Taunt: removed rage cost and global cooldown.
Bug Fixes
* Night Elf characters in Wisp form will now have correct collision detection.
* Damage modifiers will now be calculated before armor points are considered, instead of after.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-11-17-04.html
Major Changes
(detailed information for each below)
Durability
Item durability costs have been greatly decreased for Superior (blue) and Epic (purple) items.
Improved Unstuck
We've added an auto-unstuck feature that you can use prior to petitioning a GM. You can use this feature in situations where you are caught in a part of the terrain and cannot get out. You can find the unstuck option by clicking on the "Help Request" button found on the bottom right hand side of the user interface.
Spirit Healer
Using the Spirit Healer now results in a 25% loss in durability for a player's equipped gear and items in inventory, instead of the previous 100% loss. The length of resurrection sickness suffered from using the Spirit Healer has also been decreased to a maximum of 10 minutes.
Reagents
Reagent requirements have been removed from the following spells:
* Druid: Mark of the Wild
* Mage: Arcane Intellect
* Priest: Power Word: Fortitude
General Changes
(detailed information for each below)
General
* The Daze effect has been reworked to have a smaller chance of occurring against players level one to 29. The chance of a successful Daze effect against players 30 and above remains the same.
Talents
* The Improved Renew talent has been reduced in effectiveness per rank.
* The effect chance of Seal of Command has been reduced slightly.
* Redoubt now lasts either 10 seconds or five blocks, whichever comes first.
* The effect of Improved Moonfire has been reduced per rank.
Druid
* Bear Form has been improved to hold aggro more effectively.
* Growl: removed rage cost and global cooldown.
* Cower: increased the effect, added a cooldown.
Paladin
* Judgment: Moved to level 4.
* Divine Protection: Moved to level 6.
* Purify: Moved to level 8.
* Seal of the Crusader: Now introduced at level 6.
Rogue
* Feint: increased the effect, added a cooldown.
Shaman
* New Spell: Reincarnation (Level 30). Reincarnation is a passive ability that will give you the option of letting you resurrect yourself once every half hour upon death.
Warlock
* Inferno: Now dismisses your pet before casting to allow the Infernal to start Enslaved. Useable outdoors only.
Warrior
* Defensive Stance has been improved to hold aggro more effectively.
* Taunt: removed rage cost and global cooldown.
Bug Fixes
* Night Elf characters in Wisp form will now have correct collision detection.
* Damage modifiers will now be calculated before armor points are considered, instead of after.
krypt0nian
Banned
It does seem that there was no bit-torrent action for this update.
I'd say about 60% of the time I try to gather herbs my character stops animating in the loot position, and I'm unable to loot anything. Like the looting method is hung and I'm stuck with it. :\ I can still move around and do battle, but there is no animation, I just skate around on my knee. I have to log out and log back in before it's resolved. Is this a known issue?
krypt0nian
Banned
sp0rsk said:no hunter tweaks = lame
What tweaks are you looking for? Right now I think we're a bit overpowered. But I'd love to hear your view.
krypt0nian
Banned
sp0rsk said:mostly i want them to tweak the scare skill (i dunno the real name) its almost useless if your pet is dead
Totally true.
About the lack of anything pvp in the patch, they said earlier that the next patch (this one) was gonna be based on tweaks and general bugs. The next one will be pvp oriented.
Heh..nice to see the class I gonna play in retail is even more powerful now that they really needed it. I feel that shamans are gonna be on the end of one the biggest nerf sticks soon. They really have been made to be uber. In fact a shaman in beta asked me how pvping as a warlock is as being a shaman is just making things to easy.
Heh..nice to see the class I gonna play in retail is even more powerful now that they really needed it. I feel that shamans are gonna be on the end of one the biggest nerf sticks soon. They really have been made to be uber. In fact a shaman in beta asked me how pvping as a warlock is as being a shaman is just making things to easy.
krypt0nian said:
Hunters do seem overpowered right now, but that doesn't mean there aren't things that could be tweaked.
Arcane Shot for instance is rather pointless. It does ridiculously negligible damage at the cost of your MP. I mean actually LESS than auto-shot which is just your default attack. It's only benefit is that it's an instant and doesn't interrupt auto-shot. So, in tough battles you can use it to gain that slight extra damage, but your just burning mana. It's not an effective spell/ability.
Mjunter said:
I've got a level 32 Shaman and I'd hardly call PvP easy. Yeah, you can do pretty well against most classes 1on1, but when you get into situations where you're facing groups of people - you go down just as quick as any other class. If any one class is overpowered, it's clearly Paladins.
I don't know..I do pretty well against them. Well against them whenever they don't have a rogue partner with them. I swear every pally that I've fought with had a rogue partner sneaking with them heh.
But yeah...I'm constantly hearing people shouting about the pallys going invulnerable and running whenever things don't go well for them.
But yeah...I'm constantly hearing people shouting about the pallys going invulnerable and running whenever things don't go well for them.
Shouta
Member
You're right, armor had nothing to do with it, I made the suggestion that the Warrior should get the ability to cut the armor down for an opponent allowing them to kill them faster not that armor had a role in winning it for the Paladin.
What's the point of having weapons drawn and weapons at your side then? That's what I'm sort of pointing out. If you have your weapon drawn then sure, I can understand blocking but if you don't, then why should a shield give you benefits. =/
On a side note, it might be that the shield wasn't animated with the punching (which is probably the case) but was drawn. I've never actually fought unarmed with a shield equipped so I don't remember. I'll have to see that when I get home.
You can only heal yourself once a minute with First Aid and unless the later bandages heal for extreme amounts, then it really isn't comparable. The rank 4 Holy Light heals for like 400 HP. You're also not limited to timers other, as long as you have the MP, you can repeatedly cast it over and over again, as long as you have MP.
I've always been a proponent of making the class stronger rather than nerfing classes. It's much easier to level the playing field by adjusting abilities of the weaker class than it is to nerf the strong class. I don't mean massive boosts but rather ones that even the playing field for fighting instead of escalating the affair. Nerfing classes work sure, but the problem is that it's hard to do overall as opposed to boosting IMO. You run a higher risk of nerfing a class too hard in some cases.
Personally, I've always seen Warrior has an offensive meleeing class most of the time. I think making Warrior a stronger melee character would be keen and giving them abilities like armor reduction or a variety of interesting strikes (ones that you can't get with other classes) might be very interesting. Unique strikes like the ones found in Dragon Quest or the Break style of skills in Final Fantasy XI might be interesting (I'm only using them as an example ;p).
Correct me if Warriors already have this sort stuff.
About that whole Seal of Righteousness thing, are sure its a bug? The way ability is described (gives melee attacks the chance to proc holy damage) makes sense to me. Now, if it was "gives weapon attacks the chance to proc holy damage", then I can obviously see the bug.
I don't think the Paladin would've gone down in a minute myself. They have all kinds of survival abilities like you mention
.SyNapSe said:
Hmm. I like Arcane shot, honestly. Eats up a lot of mana compared to the damage it does, but it's an instant attack. You're pretty much doing your normal damage + 33 damage since it doesn't interrupt your normal attacks. I often fire a second arrow immediately after I use arcane shot. 100+ damage in a second is pretty good. The mana point is moot, too, IMO. I'm only Lv25 and have nearly 1k mana, and even it tough fights I don't find myself using up half of it. The only time I find myself low on mana is when I have to raise my pet. Could change when I get higher level, but we'll see.
The only change I would like to see is arcane and aimed shot taken off the same timer. And maybe remove the global timer caused by using Hunter's Mark.