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[Zantetsuken]

I'm a black man who voted for Hillary because I knew the stakes of this election, but a lot of my friends who didn't vote felt that they didn't have a dog in this fight, and figure that Democrats only show up every four years to sell dreams like clockwork. I can understand the frustration. With the election of Trump, many weren't surprised he won actually. I had a feeling he might as well, because of the way things have gone in this country.

 

[Gallbaro]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

 

[Gutek]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

There's plenty of blame to go around. No worries.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I'm a black man who voted for Hillary because I knew the stakes of this election, but a lot of my friends who didn't vote felt that they didn't have a dog in this fight, and figure that Democrats only show up every four years to sell dreams like clockwork. I can understand the frustration. With the election of Trump, many weren't surprised he won actually. I had a feeling he might as well, because of the way things have gone in this country.

I think your friends have that a little backwards, as in it's democrat voters that show up every 4 years expecting miracles while ignoring every other incredibly important election..

 

[Flo_Evans]

Only those who didn't understand the Republican party couldn't see Trump winning the primary which was most democrats.


Republican majority lives in an alternate reality but most dems refused to acknowledge what that mindset was trying to express.


The election was another matter.

Hey I called Hillary losing before the primaries even started. I was the crazy one and the "rational" people went with the more electable candidate.

 

[The Kree]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

I thought we were just acknowledging that white people were motivated by white supremacy? You gotta look at the glass as half full.

 

[User Name Here]

Hard for black people to vote when they can't get to the polling station or there basically isn't any in their district.

 

[AgentP]

Maybe the other side should have placed an option up that didnt refer to our kids as super predators?

Maybe they should always vote, no matter what color the candidates? It's also your civic duty.

 

[Aaronology]

Maybe they should always vote, no matter what color the candidates? It's also your civic duty.

What? I might be misreading you, but it seems you're insinuating black Americans only vote when there is a black candidate for POTUS.

 

[Angelus Errare]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

A pass time as old as the country itself really.

In fact if you look at the history of American politics it's literally been "blame black people"

 

[Mammoth Jones]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

This. America needs to own it's bullshit. We vote. Time and time again. Dont out this on us. Blame Clinton.

 

[ClayKavalier]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.

This. America needs to own it's bullshit. We vote. Time and time again. Dont out this on us. Blame Clinton.

But that clearly isn't true.

And what does "Blame Clinton" mean? What did she do that was so horrible that people couldn't vote for her to keep Trump out of office?

 

[akira28]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

did we ever stop? I wasn't notified of any vacation periods.

Obama is still mostly to blame for raising expectations to high, and not doing enough directly.

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.

the framing is definitely faulty. and in light of how blaming a black person is like a regressive cultural touchstone at this point, you'd think people would at least pause first.

 

[pigeon]

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.

Ultimately, the people who actively chose to vote for an overt white supremacist are probably more responsible.

They even got first billing in the article headline!

 

[Mammoth Jones]

And what does "Blame Clinton" mean? What did she do that was so horrible that people couldn't vote for her to keep Trump out of office?

She was a shit candidate. Dont put it on Black people. Double down on Comey and Russia if you want but for fucking Christ sake don't fucking put this on Black people.

The fuck?

 

[CrocMother]

Anyone who didn't vote because they couldn't be bothered, or out of some form of protest, is a fool. Race shaming is pointless.

 

[The Kree]

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.



But that clearly isn't true.

And what does "Blame Clinton" mean? What did she do that was so horrible that people couldn't vote for her to keep Trump out of office?

Yeah, it is unwarranted to blame 15% of the population for failing to stop 60% of the population from doing something idiotic.

Y'all really think black people have superpowers even when it comes to deciding elections. Incredible.

 

[ISOM]

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.



But that clearly isn't true.

And what does "Blame Clinton" mean? What did she do that was so horrible that people couldn't vote for her to keep Trump out of office?

I prefer to blame the people who I don't know actually voted for the clown we currently have as President and those are largely white people.

 

[ClayKavalier]

Ultimately, the people who actively chose to vote for an overt white supremacist are probably more responsible.

They even got first billing in the article headline!

You can argue that there's a scale of responsibility that people bear for helping Trump get elected. You can make a case that people who voted Clinton are to blame if they didn't donate to her campaign. You could even say that people who donated their time and money are to blame if they didn't move to purple states where their vote would count more. You could argue for hours how much fault should be assigned to these different groups relative to each other.

But you can't argue that people who voted in prior elections but sat this one out don't belong somewhere on that scale.

She was a shit candidate. Dont put it on Black people. Double down on Comey and Russia if you want but for fucking Christ sake don't fucking put this on Black people.

The fuck?

Yeah, it is unwarranted to blame 15% of the population for failing to stop 60% of the population from doing something idiotic.

Y'all really think black people have superpowers even when it comes to deciding elections. Incredible.

You'll have to point out where I said black people not voting swung the election.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah, it is unwarranted to blame 15% of the population for failing to stop 60% of the population from doing something idiotic.

We're not even 16% of the population. We're still only around 12.2%

 

[YaBish]

I think it's funny that some people itt are basically excusing that White people are voting for a white supremacist, while shifting the blame to Black people for not voting.

White people don't have to vote for a white supremacist, but they mostly did. Black people didn't want to vote for Hillary in large part because of her Super Predator comment. That stuck out to a lot of people.

Honestly, between calling Trump voters deplorable and Black people Super Predators, I'm surprised Hillary did as well as she did.

Edit: That said, I still believe Hillary was the best choice for President, and I wish that more people had voted IN GENERAL. Abstention rates were absurdly high last year.

 

[Enzom21]

Maybe they should always vote, no matter what color the candidates? It's also your civic duty.

That post mentioned nothing about not voting for Hilary because she is white.
You think black people only voted based on the candidate's race? Interesting.

 

[Gallbaro]

Is it unwarranted? Unless you think the data behind the article is faulty or something, seems fair enough to call people out for refusing to vote, especially in this election, especially if they had a history of voting before.



But that clearly isn't true.

And what does "Blame Clinton" mean? What did she do that was so horrible that people couldn't vote for her to keep Trump out of office?

The data shows that a minority of voters, voted for Trump, a majority of voters for Clinton and plurality of citizens did not vote.

Depending on your viewpoint Primary blame is to the people who voted for the man. Assuming the sample size is accurate to the population, people who did not vote cannot be the primary blame.

With that in mind blaming a small percentage of change in voting pattern among demographics, and assigning them blame or credit is disingenuous and a moral wich hunt.

 

[akira28]

I think it's funny that some people itt are basically excusing that White people are voting for a white supremacist, while shifting the blame to Black people for not voting.

White people don't have to vote for a white supremacist, but they mostly did. Black people didn't want to vote for Hillary in large part because of her Super Predator comment. That stuck out to a lot of people.

Honestly, between calling Trump voters deplorable and Black people Super Predators, I'm surprised Hillary did as well as she did.

They were trying to do this the first time that Milwaukee barbershop was mentioned.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

You can argue that there's a scale of responsibility that people bear for helping Trump get elected. You can make a case that people who voted Clinton are to blame if they didn't donate to her campaign. You could even say that people who donated their time and money are to blame if they didn't move to purple states where their vote would count more. You could argue for hours how much fault should assigned to these different groups relative to each other.

But you can't argue that people who voted in prior elections but sat this one out don't belong somewhere on that scale.

Ok, let's say I agree with you, how do you hold a faceless group of people accountable for the next election? What is the point of assigning blame here?

 

[The Kree]

You'll have to point out where I said black people not voting swung the election.

You didn't say it. You and many others are insinuating it though. I'm doing what's called "reading between the lines".

 

[CrocMother]

I think it's funny that some people itt are basically excusing that White people are voting for a white supremacist, while shifting the blame to Black people for not voting.

White people don't have to vote for a white supremacist, but they mostly did. Black people didn't want to vote for Hillary in large part because of her Super Predator comment. That stuck out to a lot of people.

Honestly, between calling Trump voters deplorable and Black people Super Predators, I'm surprised Hillary did as well as she did.

Why are you excusing people who didn't go out and vote against the white supremacist? And this doesn't just apply to black people. There were plenty liberal of all races who stayed home because Hilary wasn't perfect.

All those people are fools.

 

[YaBish]

Why are you excusing people who didn't go out and vote against the white supremacist? And this doesn't just apply to black people. There were plenty liberal of all races who stayed home because Hilary wasn't perfect.

All those people are fools.

See my edit

 

[CrocMother]

See my edit

Gotcha.

 

[ClayKavalier]

Ok, let's say I agree with you, how do you hold a faceless group of people accountable for the next election? What is the point of assigning blame here?

I'm not holding any group responsible for the next election.

As far as the point of assigning blame, I've never really done that outside of this thread. But I do see and hear a lot of comments like "I hope people in red states get fucked by Ryan's agenda, they made this possible and I hope they hurt for it." Again, this isn't a sentiment I agree with, but I've seen it posted many times on GAF and I've heard people say it in conversations multiple times.

I'm playing devil's advocate too. I agree that assigning blame is counterproductive. But if we're assigning blame, then people who sat out the election bear some. I think it's interesting (and hopefully educating for people who like to talk about who does and doesn't deserve the effects of the legislation Republican's are trying to pass) when people make statements without understanding the ramifications and then something like this challenges the assumptions they made when playing judge.

You didn't say it. You and many others are insinuating it though. I'm doing what's called "reading between the lines".

If you say so.

 

[pigeon]

You can argue that there's a scale of responsibility that people bear for helping Trump get elected. You can make a case that people who voted Clinton are to blame if they didn't donate to her campaign. You could even say that people who donated their time and money are to blame if they didn't move to purple states where their vote would count more. You could argue for hours how much fault should be assigned to these different groups relative to each other.

But you can't argue that people who voted in prior elections but sat this one out don't belong somewhere on that scale.

Sure you can. Example: if I believe that sins of omission are fundamentally distinct from sins of action, everybody who voted for Trump deserves condemnation and everybody else is fine. You might not like that argument, but I can definitely
make it. It's not logically inconsistent or anything.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I really wish black people had as much power as media/conservatives/moderates/and some liberals seem to think we have.

 

[ClayKavalier]

Sure you can. Example: if I believe that sins of omission are fundamentally distinct from sins of action, everybody who voted for Trump deserves condemnation and everybody else is fine. You might not like that argument, but I can definitely
make it. It's not logically inconsistent or anything.

Well yeah, I didn't mean that literally. If I believe in astrology I can argue that the alignment of the planets caused Trump's rise to power, and that no people are to blame. It's not logically inconsistent or anything! My point was that people who typically vote but sat this one out clearly aided in Trump's election.

To help out any people enthusiastically reading between the lines of this post, "aided in" does not mean the same thing as "are responsible for."

 

[CrocMother]

Sure you can. Example: if I believe that sins of omission are fundamentally distinct from sins of action, everybody who voted for Trump deserves condemnation and everybody else is fine. You might not like that argument, but I can definitely
make it. It's not logically inconsistent or anything.

Are you seriously trying to make this argument?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Abstention rates were absurdly high last year.

They weren't. Turnout was roughly in line with 2012, possibly slightly below or above.

Mixing datasets but even at a 5% drop in black turnout that's still slightly higher than 2004 and only below the two Obama cycles.

 

[acheron_xl]

Voter suppression combined with racial priming. Other things were factors (Russia, Hillary being an establishment bore) but I think those were the two largest.

 

[besada]

There are a lot of people who share fractional responsibility for Trump's win. Yes, black voters who stayed home are among them, but they're waaaay down the list, which starts with the people who actually voted for Trump, and arguably comes after the people who insisted running a candidate that was loathed by a large portion of the electorate. It also includes Comey, and Russia, and Republican candidates that did a shitty job, and media outlets that did a shitty job, etc.

The election was close enough that you can point to a dozen different things that -- if they'd shaken out differently -- would have changed the course of this disaster. But they didn't, so now we have what we have.

I'm not sure this interminable pointing of fingers and navel gazing is particularly useful in general, but specifically if you're pointing to a single thing and decrying it as the sole reason Trump won, you're full of shit and missing the point. There are dozens of things, if done differently, that can have a significant effect. This idea that we need to find the singular cause of our failure and then browbeat anyone who disagrees with us on it is wasteful, divisive, and just ignorant of the facts.

In short, turn around, quit looking at the ass-whoopin you just took, and start doing something to avoid the next one. Multiple somethings, even. Try actually addressing black issues if you want more black voters to turn out. Address rural whites if you want more rural whites to turn out. Run a candidate whose negatives aren't in danger of overwhelming their positives if you want people to get excited and turn out.

At the beginning of this campaign, I repeatedly attempted to get posters here to quit treating the different wings of the Democratic party as if they were the enemy. I was a dismal failure on that front, because apparently it's just more fun for you guys to hate each other and call each other names than it is to acknowledge that you have more common ground with one another than you do with any other available party. Again I say, get right with each other if you want to get right with the electorate. Understand that there are multiple paths to victory, and there's nothing wrong with pursuing them in parallel. It's fine to reach out to black voters and it's fine to reach out to white voters. We should be reaching out to every fucking one, because that's who is going to take a fucking from this administration -- everyone.

 

[YaBish]

They weren't. Turnout was roughly in line with 2012, possibly slightly below or above.

Mixing datasets but even at a 5% drop in black turnout that's still slightly higher than 2004 and only below the two Obama cycles.

Wasn't aware of 2012 numbers, but 58% turnout is abysmal no matter what way you slice it.

 

[kirblar]

So we're back to blaming black people? Cool.

Yes, black people are totally to blame for voter supression in WI!

 

[KingV]

I really wish black people had as much power as media/conservatives/moderates/and some liberals seem to think we have.

Black people kinda do have a lot of power in statewide and national races, at least.
2008 and 2012, black turnout as percentage higher than white, 2010 and 2014 white turnout is higher. 2016, this article doesn't exactly gives those number but suggests that white turnout was probably higher than black turnout in 2016 too.

I'm not really sure what that means, but it suggests that black turnout at Obama levels and Obama Clinton vote margins every year would likely guarantee the black American-preferred President every year, as well as a Senate majority for whichever party black Americans supported.

 

[ClayKavalier]

I was a dismal failure on that front,

Jeez, bummer the condemnation of finger-pointing doesn't apply when you're blaming yourself.

 

[Machina]

Michigan and Wisconsin my god.

That is all on Clinton. Her arrogance in not campaigning in these states sank her ship faster than the Titanic

 

[shinra-bansho]

Wasn't aware of 2012 numbers, but 58% turnout is abysmal no matter what way you slice it.

It is, for the U.S., historically not bad. It is around the median value for the last 100 years.
~4th highest across the last ten Presidential elections.
The US simply has terrible turnouts.

 

[acheron_xl]

That is all on Clinton. Her arrogance in not campaigning in these states sank her ship faster than the Titanic

Hillary Clinton didn't pass Wisconsin's Voter ID law.

 

[Machina]

Hillary Clinton didn't pass Wisconsin's Voter ID law.

No, but the far right Republicans who replaced the Neoliberal Democrats did.

 

[jerry113]

Just to maintain perspective, because I'm starting to think the narrative of this thread is "Clinton lost because of black people"



Black people were the one demographic that overwhelmingly shunned the GOP candidate and backed Clinton. The majority demographic of this country backed Trump, plain and simple. If less of them did, we wouldn't be where we currently are.

jesus that does not make white people look good

 

[Gattsu25]

I thought we were just acknowledging that white people were motivated by white supremacy? You gotta look at the glass as half full.

We shouldn't forget that Trump's campaign targeted black voters, down to the specific individuals, precisely to demotivate them to stay home on elections day.

Or that republican legislators drafted new laws to purge black voters from the voting ranks or worked to remove methods that black voters tended to favor

 

[GiantBreadbug]

That is all on Clinton. Her arrogance in not campaigning in these states sank her ship faster than the Titanic

I'd say it was less arrogance and neglect and more "a plurality of people know she's lying scum." But it's both, definitely.

I can't believe people insist on carrying the banner for the Democratic Party while they continue to fuck things for everyone a la 2016. The thing is rotten. Throw them in the trash and start over. Just because they drip feed human rights and liberties to their base doesn't mean they need to continue falling for the shit.

 

[pigeon]

jesus that does not make white people look good

Yuuuuup

 

[Gattsu25]

dp. or soemthing