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WrestleMania 33 Week |OT| The Ride Never Ends.
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
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Discotheque
Banned
yes. but they're not doing much with this heat. ignoring it just makes it boring.
they need to embrace the heat. Roman can really be the heel we deserve, if they ever freaking let him.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
LOL
It's incredible to me how much this place talks about fucking Roman Reigns.
Yes, I have.
I am hardly alone in this. It is not like I am sticking around for the weekly product after this Mania either.
If the ratings are any indication at least, people ARE undeniably turning away from what WWE is selling. And they've been selling us Roman for three years now, but I guess we're ignoring the fact ratings are dropping.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
I've watched like five shows in the last two years. I basically tune in for Wrestlemania and half-follow these threads and websites for anything that sounds marginally interesting the rest of the time. Also that thread chronicling Raw's ratings spiral despite everyone being unable to stop watching.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
They do embrace it. It's why he just retired the Undertaker after he threw him out of the Rumble. It's why he came out at 30 in the Rumble to begin with.
He's been a killer heel to the young male demographic, you guys just don't think the Eva Marie self-aware gimmick works on you, even though it's been working with Eva and Roman.
It's becasue he's the biggest wet fart ever thrust into the main event. It's not a good thing.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I don't know why you guys think your jumps to conclusions are better than mine.
Johnny Ryall
Member
I generally cherry pick what i watch and it's usually not Roman.Not while he's got this generic action man boring action figure thing going on anyway. I'll be skipping the main event and in fairness it sounds like a lot of that is to due to the undertaker as well from the clips I've seen.
The Albatross
Member
I think HBK / Diesel point is similar to what the other guy is saying. Roman Reigns, as he's been booked, is not selling out these 75,000 seat stadiums, the overall quality of the roster is inspite of Reigns' booking at the top, not because of it. Similarly, Wrestlemania 11 was a small arena because of bad booking with Diesel, but also look at the rest of that card... freaking Lawrence Taylor v. Bam Bam Bigelo for the main event (which was better than it should have been), Taker v. King Kong Bundy, Bret Hart v. Bob Backlund. A card that has Michaels, Hart, Owen Hart, Kevin Nash, Undertaker, Scott Hall (undercarders like Waltman, Billy Gunn, Road Dogg, Luger), and yet almost all of them are in horrible matches that make no sense. Diesel / HBK was booked well, almost everything else sucks. Compare that WM to the booking from a year earlier, where you had a much skinnier roster, and yet matched up Owen v. Bret; Michaels v. Razor (ladder match); Yokozuna v. Luger / Bret. A guy who was literally in a joke match in WM10 (Bam Bam Bigelo v. Doink) is the main event versus a retired football player, and the guy who is your main event (Yokozuna) is in a shit undercard tag team match against the Smoking Gunns...
WM11 was such a small arena because the booking for really 18 months was very, very poor, even though the talent and names was very strong. Last night's WM was built up pretty well with a bunch of good feuds and most of them resulted in a satisfying completion. But Reigns isn't the reason people bought tickets or ordered the PPV.
Also, I desperately want Reigns turned heel because I think his character could flourish. It's harder being a baby face than being a heel. To get good heat as a baby face you have to have a ton of personality, or a ton of talent, or be booked perfectly in the right feuds. Reigns hasn't been booked perfectly, has very little personality, and is not as talented as most of the roster. WWE is entertaining it, but it's intensely frustrating and makes me think that when they make the switch, they're going to do so at a bad time when nobody cares, as opposed to the perfect time, like last night.
I also don't even hate Roman, I feel bad for Roman because WWE is booking him into impossible situations for him to get either good face heat or good heel heat. Roman is the 1993 Lex Luger run. Luger had a great look, wasn't terrible, and was passably likable if booked the right way. But, he was literally air lifted to the main event, and while he was over with kids and probably sold plenty of tickets to Summerslam '93, it was at the detriment of the product, and a major reason why Luger was kinda-sorta over that summer was because his opponent, Yokozuna, was a super-over monster heel. But he wasn't a good wrestler and his finisher was literally a cheating finisher (the illegal forearm, pre-Luger rack). Then Vince transitioned to Hart, which he should have done anyway, and the whole card got more interesting.
BeatnikGunsoo
Member
I don't watch raw anymore but I watch smackdown because it's a better show (but still not as good as it could be)
Plus ratings don't matter for the west coast anyway lol
Plus ratings don't matter for the west coast anyway lol
Because your argument is undermined by the underlying fact that you literally don't understand what a heel is.
Basileus777
Member
Cherry picking Wrestlemania attendance numbers out of all the poor signs that business is not exactly booming for the wwe right now to depict Roman as a big draw is pretty disingenuous.
House shows aren't selling out anymore and ratings are in the tank, especially in the third hour of Raw which is usually the Roman heavy hour.
And yeah, WrestleMania attendance numbers mean squat in terms of someone's drawing ability since the event sells out before the card is ever announced. Mania is the draw of Mania
And yeah, WrestleMania attendance numbers mean squat in terms of someone's drawing ability since the event sells out before the card is ever announced. Mania is the draw of Mania
He probably sells the most merch for the same reason Cena sells the most merch. Because the ratio of available merch is heavily in Roman's favor compared to other wrestlers. Both Punk and Orton have called this out publicly. Of course Roman Reigns is going to sell the most merch when there's 50 Roman shirts available and only 5 for Cesaro.
The Albatross
Member
In defense of last night's WM, it is very refreshing for matches to have conclusions. I get pretty nostalgic for the olden days of wrestling, but I'm glad we're in an era where two people can wrestle to conclusion at wrestlemania and properly finish a feud.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were no interferences costing someone the match last night, right (save for pre-show gronk)? Steph went to interfere but it predictably backfired, that's the closest I can think of.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were no interferences costing someone the match last night, right (save for pre-show gronk)? Steph went to interfere but it predictably backfired, that's the closest I can think of.
There was shockingly little fuckery with any of the matches on the entire card, which was surprising. I figured HHH/Seth would get some Samoa Joe and/or Balor interference
He is the most pushed face on TV and has been for years. It's not an achievement to get to second place.
Punk did it, Bryan did it, Ambrose did it, the New Day did it. "Distant second" is a pretty crappy reason, especially when they make 50 new shirts for him a month and inflate numbers with that house show stock crap they pull.
Call me when someone beats Cena's numbers.
funkystudent
Member
I have said it before.
I think Roman Reigns has everything a WWE wrestler needs to be "the guy" but its the creative push behind him that has killed him.
He is a decent wrestler. He is OK on the mic. he has a look etc...
But he can be the next Randy Orton. He isnt the next John Cena. Right now he looks more like the next Lex Luger.
I think Roman Reigns has everything a WWE wrestler needs to be "the guy" but its the creative push behind him that has killed him.
He is a decent wrestler. He is OK on the mic. he has a look etc...
But he can be the next Randy Orton. He isnt the next John Cena. Right now he looks more like the next Lex Luger.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I hate Roman Reigns (his moveset is all running strikes and his promos are vile), but I'm beginning to get that this is the work. They were caught off-guard in 2014 with the Daniel Bryan moment, but they've been dialed in pretty well on how we respond to Roman since then.
The people I watch and talk wrestling with are fully enamored with him, and I consider them smart academics or artist types, not the stereotyped common Roman fan who would easily buy into whatever shit Vince puts on TV. I think the common assumption is that there are still only two types of fans, casual and hardcore, who have respectively split opinions on face vs heel, but this is dated thinking similar to expecting 1995 psychology to relate to what 1999 wrestling ended up being.
Wrestling is way bigger than something for straight men age 13-35 anymore, and Roman is a mega face to an audience that never interacts with another audience that thinks he's garbage. Wrestling fans stay in bubbles, and GAF isn't immune. Check out any replies on Roman posts on Twitter or Instagram, and it's always the same scene as you get in person at the arena: a whole lot of people very interested in loudly reminding us they love or hate him.
Someone already did.
WWE's response was making more shirts for Cena and limiting the amount of Punk shirts available to buy.
Were Jericho/Owens and Styles/Shane matches any good? Those and the Wyatt match were the only ones I was hyped for, but I started the show at the HHH match so I missed half of it. The supernatural shit in the Wyatt match was great and I was hoping for more, but the match just sort of ended anticlimactically.
Bummed that I missed the Hardys returning too. Though it'd be disappointing if they didn't capitalize on the Broken gimmick and just retreaded the Team Xtreme stuff again. I need more over the top, outlandish fuckery in my wrestling.
Bummed that I missed the Hardys returning too. Though it'd be disappointing if they didn't capitalize on the Broken gimmick and just retreaded the Team Xtreme stuff again. I need more over the top, outlandish fuckery in my wrestling.
Basileus777
Member
The numbers don't seem to back this up, wrestling is more niche than it has been for long time. That's the problem with anecdotes, they are the definition of an impression from a bubble.
Right now he's the next Diesel. Fittingly, the creative push is what killed Diesel as well. When Nash jumped to WCW and got a fresh push he was made.
Not to mention the prime demographic that is still watching WWE is the 18-35 year old demographic. Wrestling's core audience is getting older, not younger.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
AJ/Shane may have been the best thing on the show.
If anything just to watch the best wrestler in the world carry a 47 year old non-wrestler to an entertaining match.
The Ladder Match was probably the match of the night, though that was a gimmick match and helped incredibly by the Hardys.
notworksafe
Member
if only the brock/goldberg match the whole internet was bitching about closing the show had actually closed the show. that would have been a fantastic ending to the night!
Owens/Jericho was a good match, not outstanding, it was clearly meant to be second on the card and not a blowaway bout.
Shane/AJ was actually very good, Shane worked his ass off and AJ held everything together to make it one of the better matches of the show, maybe the best in fact. Crowd was really hot for it too.
In that same line, 17% are under 18.
So in essence, the minority are the ones that are cheering for Roman Reigns.
Not the majority and not even half.
Kind of shitty to claim literally all women like Reigns isn't it?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Plenty of dudes love him, too. My point in bringing up demographics is getting you guys to consider for a moment that someone might legitimately be different than you and also watching wrestling. It's like how we have to be reminded women make up about half of gamers, too. Or how the WWE's average audience age is in the 40s, but that's not what you'll see on TV at the arena.
No one was saying other demographics don't watch wrestling.
All people say is that the majority that do watch wrestling are older men.
Which is true. And those people are the ones booing Roman Reigns.
Basileus777
Member
WWE's demographics have been aging over the years too, the trend is actually against their audience getting larger and more diverse, it's becoming older and smaller.
And if you look at this article from CageSidesSeats from 2013, which was using the demographics numbers from the time, 24% of their audience was under 17. So in 4 years they've seen a 7% dropoff in their 17 and under demographic. So yeah, kids are absolutely the huge minority in the WWE fanbase, an age demographic that is shrinking at an alarming rate, and a gigantic portion of their main audience are people over the age of 30.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
And isn't it weird that this majority routinely shows up to the PPVs to loudly cheer the guy opposite Reigns and boo Reigns? Really weird, right? Like the passionate Canada vs USA bizarro world thing from the '90s we all loved, and they're in touch with who to put against who in order to give everyone Their Guy?
Awesome. When they first announced Styles would face Shane I was slightly apprehensive about it, but glad to hear it went very well. I'll have to watch those and that ladder match later today.
I'm not saying it's smart to do. Wrestling fans are stupid. Vince knows this.
If wrestling fans were really smart, any time Roman Reigns is in the ring, they'd get out of their seats and come back when he's gone.
Vince would just shift his narrative to "people aren't booing Roman Reigns when he comes out. That means he isn't hated". This is basically what justified Randy Orton's existence before he became a Wyatt.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
That's what I'm saying.
Attendance, like ratings, are down for shows led by Reigns. Your narrative is not aligning with the stats.
You can't shift the narrative with empty seats.
You can try, but the viewers at home at least will notice it more and can call bullshit rather than think commentators are being honest when they say "The audience is just having fun. They really like Roman Reigns, but they're booing him because it's fun."
WWE has made it so that apathy is the way for an audience to make their voices heard. Not booing.
Basileus777
Member
There's very little suggesting that Roman is a draw or is bringing in new demographics to the WWE. His time on the top has been the worst for business since the New Generation era.
I'm fully confident Vince would try. He's already resorted to editing fan reactions to make it look like the crowd was pro-Roman
TemplaerDude
Member
I enjoyed it, it was just too fucking long. I need to mentally prepare myself for that much wrestling a lot better than I did.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Numbers, dude. Show your work. It's not that I don't believe you, but let's all get smarter at this together.
I also want to remind all of you that Roman isn't fighting for the title, because he lost that feud, so he's not the top guy. The Undertaker retiring was going to go last.
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