Support NeoGAF

[shaowebb]

This is exactly how you get the current WWE product. 15 minute meaningless matches on a weekly basis.

Wrestling is the least important thing - starpower, storylines, etc- Al Snow's point about Hogan/Andre being the "best" WM3 match from a business perspective isn't wrong.

I don't call most of what goes on in WWE "wrestling". How many moves are in their spots? 2..3 tops? Yeah...those aren't good wrestling examples to push. Punchy kicky runny shit with very little back and forth. Just a lot of "this guy is up" then "this other guy is now up" stuff. Not a lot of move for move sets to tie those moments together. Not enough shoot moments and not enough back and forth countering or complex spots with half a dozen plus moves.

Wrestling is the MOST important thing in wrestling. WWE's problem is they are running low on quality workers and have a lot of toolboxes that are half empty out there trying to act like they have a complete toolset of spots and sequences in their arsenal. 15 minutes "samey" matches with little to no real variance between performers is laughable to call wrestling.

Lucha Underground has real performers who could go 15 minutes and showcase nearly an entirely different repetoir of moves and sequences every time. WWE has backed the wrong performers and has a roster thats not talented enough to work the few they got. It throttled down their high octane wrestlers and now they're roster is running on fumes.

 

[Son Of D]

Feel bad for Rollins. Instead of properly have him feud with Ambrose, Lesnar, Cena (lol), and maybe even The Rock's cousin they've booked him to take cleans falls and now he's working with Kane in 2015.

Reading that has made me realise that Seth hasn't had a feud with Reigns since becoming champion. I'd have expected Reigns to at least get another title shot after losing at Mania (excluding that 4 way match at Payback). Sure Reigns has been stuck in this Wyatt feud for ages but still. I really hope this Kane thing is just for HIAC because if this actually continues into Survivor Series...

 

[kirblar]

I don't call most of what goes on in WWE "wrestling". How many moves are in their spots? 2..3 tops? Yeah...those aren't good wrestling examples to push. Punchy kicky runny shit with very little back and forth. Just a lot of "this guy is up" then "this guy is up" stuff. Not a lot of move for move sets to tie those moments together.

Wrestling is the MOST important thing in wrestling. WWE's problem is they are running low on quality workers and have a lot of toolboxes that are half empty out there trying to act like they have a complete toolset of spots and sequences in their arsenal. 15 minutes "samey" matches with little to no real variance between performers is laughable to call wrestling.

Lucha Underground has real performers who could go 15 minutes and showcase nearly an entirely different repetoir of moves and sequences every time. WWE has backed the wrong performers and has a roster thats not talented enough to work the few they got. It throttled down their high octane wrestlers and now they're roster is running on fumes.

The brawly WWE main event style used in the Attitude era was developed because Austin had to work around his neck injuries. He's joked that he did about 4-5 moves top in a match in that era of his career. And even with that limited move pool, he still managed to become the biggest star since Hulk Hogan. Wrestling is a storytelling vehicle. The hyper-athleticism is nice, but it's not a necessity.

Reading that has made me realise that Seth hasn't had a feud with Reigns since becoming champion. I'd have expected Reigns to at least get another title shot after losing at Mania (excluding that 4 way match at Payback). Sure Reigns has been stuck in this Wyatt feud for ages but still. I really hope this Kane thing is just for HIAC because if this actually continues into Survivor Series...

IIRC, there's been a Shield Triple Threat for the title penciled in for WM forever.

 

[tchocky]

I don't call most of what goes on in WWE "wrestling". How many moves are in their spots? 2..3 tops? Yeah...those aren't good wrestling examples to push. Punchy kicky runny shit with very little back and forth. Just a lot of "this guy is up" then "this other guy is now up" stuff. Not a lot of move for move sets to tie those moments together. Not enough shoot moments and not enough back and forth countering or complex spots with half a dozen plus moves.

Wrestling is the MOST important thing in wrestling. WWE's problem is they are running low on quality workers and have a lot of toolboxes that are half empty out there trying to act like they have a complete toolset of spots and sequences in their arsenal. 15 minutes "samey" matches with little to no real variance between performers is laughable to call wrestling.

Lucha Underground has real performers who could go 15 minutes and showcase nearly an entirely different repetoir of moves and sequences every time. WWE has backed the wrong performers and has a roster thats not talented enough to work the few they got. It throttled down their high octane wrestlers and now they're roster is running on fumes.

They are not lacking talented in ring performers the problem is the wrestlers are being asked to perform WWE style which is not going to change any time soon.

 

[antonz]

Reading that has made me realise that Seth hasn't had a feud with Reigns since becoming champion. I'd have expected Reigns to at least get another title shot after losing at Mania (excluding that 4 way match at Payback). Sure Reigns has been stuck in this Wyatt feud for ages but still. I really hope this Kane thing is just for HIAC because if this actually continues into Survivor Series...

They pushed reigns way too hard and way too fast and the audience was completely turned against him. Probably legit shook Vince since MacDaddy is the star maker and had his star denied.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The idea of holding Lucha Underground up as a shining example of wrestling with no build up or story is laughable.

Lucha Underground is not a wrestling program. It's a television show with wrestling.

 

[Jimmy King]

WWE should take a page out of WCW's playbook and start booking atypical venues, like Spring Break Nitro.

Just do fucking anything to spice up the bland as hell TV presentation right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_th4LsV9kE

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_th4LsV9kE

The best part of those shows was when Hall and Nash got drunk, showed up in Hawaiian shirts and did things like this

 

[thepotatoman]

Ric Flair and Vince Russo on the decline of wrestling

Russo is completely correct. The number one long term problem is no one can get over, and the reason they can't get over is they so commonly pull the plug or make stupid decisions on pushes of talented wrestlers that seem to be working.

 

[jstripes]

They need to drastically change up the presentation.

Different camera angles, different locations(maybe do some smaller non arena events), different presentation format).

Maybe do a show with no hard cam or invent a new perspective such as a hanging camera with the ability to rotate around the ring and capture action.

Putting an overcooked steak on a fancy plate with fancy garnishes isn't going to fix the steak.

The product itself needs to be reevaluated from top to bottom. But it needs to be done with fresh eyes, not the people who have been running it for the last 20 years.

Russo is completely correct. The number one long term problem is no one can get over, and the reason they can't get over is they so commonly pull the plug or make stupid decisions on pushes of talented wrestlers that seem to be working.

Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock would never have happened today. It'd be a Triple H showcase.

 

[Plinko]

They need Papa Shango. Need him badly...

I know you're joking, but I honestly wonder if a return to more 80s/90s gimmicks might be a boon for the industry. Right now, one thing that bothers me is that 95% of the guys are "First name Last name" and have similar music.

With the smash hit success of superhero movies, are people wanting more of that fantasy-style wrestler again?

 

[The Silver]

Reigns wasn't ready at the time. I do think a major f-up was not just giving Ambrose an actual short reign this summer. It would have done a massive amount to quell any backlash whenever Reigns gets his second major push.

This is exactly how you get the current WWE product. 15 minute meaningless matches on a weekly basis. It's a poisonous smark train of thought that WWE unfortunately bought into.

Wrestling is the least important thing - starpower, storylines, etc- Al Snow's point about Hogan/Andre being the "best" WM3 match from a business perspective isn't wrong.

Kevin Owens has said that the best advice he got was to never stop running his mouth.

seriously, the current in ring product might be some of the best its ever been in the history of the WWE and yet ratings are shit, straight up wrestling does not attract mass viewers and it never did. WWE is supposed to be the place where you evolve past being a straight up wrestler and become a true entertainer, a cultural phenomenon.

That said you do need to be a lot more competent in the ring than the past eras could get away with, the bar has been raised and there's no going back.


People want larger than life superstars like Hogan and Austin, they want storylines they can get invested in like Austin vs McMahon, anything Mick Foley does, I'll even throw in Bryan's run to WM31. The good matches mean nothing if you don't give people a reason to care about them, and that's why the attitude era excelled. The performers knew how to entertain, work the mic, SELL a match. The booking played to their stengths and by trying to give everyone from top to bottom a worthwhile storyline.

Nowadays they sabotage a talent like Roman Reigns by never playing to his strengths cause they want Cena 2.0(that fiasco of a Rumble Rumble killed any chance he has as a face) and even though you have truly excellent entertainers in the New Day.....what exactly is their storyline that I should be invested in?

 

[Nemesis121]

Raw ratings continue to drop:


http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/20...tings-oct-12-2015-viewers-back-at-record-lows

2 Playoff baseball games and Monday Night Football, i am shocked they still managed 3mi viewers..

 

[Ninja Scooter]

seriously, the current in ring product might be some of the best its ever been in the history of the WWE and yet ratings are shit, straight up wrestling does not attract mass viewers and it never did. WWE is supposed to be the place where you evolve past being a straight up wrestler and become a true entertainer, a cultural phenomenon.

That said you do need to be a lot more competent in the ring than the past eras could get away with, the bar has been raised and there's no going back.


People want larger than life superstars like Hogan and Austin, they want storylines they can get invested in like Austin vs McMahon, anything Mick Foley does, I'll even throw in Bryan's run to WM31. The good matches mean nothing if you don't give people a reason to care about them, and that's why the attitude era excelled. The performers knew how to entertain, work the mic, SELL a match. The booking played to their stengths and by trying to give everyone from top to bottom a worthwhile storyline.

Nowadays they sabotage a talent like Roman Reigns by never playing to his strengths cause they want Cena 2.0(that fiasco of a Rumble Rumble killed any chance he has as a face) and even though you have truly excellent entertainers in the New Day.....what exactly is their storyline that I should be invested in?

The New Day are bordering on becoming a prop at this point. They'll be Santino status in a month.

 

[hamchan]

They've made Seth Rollins look like a joke of a champion and an idiot when at the end of Wrestlemania he looked like a genius. 1-19 record, crazy.

 

[kirblar]

The New Day are bordering on becoming a prop at this point. They'll be Santino status in a month.

Not that he's anywhere near ready for it, but I wonder how much WWE would pay to go back in time and get the MITB briefcase on Big E.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

2 Playoff baseball games and Monday Night Football, i am shocked they still managed 3mi viewers..

The NFL used to call Vince McMahon and beg him to switch Raw to another night.

 

[VoxPop]

The NFL used to call Vince McMahon and beg him to switch Raw to another night.

Out of pity?

 

[Nemesis121]

The NFL used to call Vince McMahon and beg him to switch Raw to another night.

Those days are over, Raw hasn't been great since WCW folded, the competition between WCW and WWF was can't miss TV, the only time i watch MNF back in those days when the Giants played, otherwise it was Raw/Nitro, no competition WWE has turned in the PG era shit, I rather watch the Jags and Lions play on MNF than watch Raw today..

 

[yuraya]

Vince needs to take action. Come out to that ring and fire everybody after the next ppv. Shake things up.

He needs to cough up a few more mil as well and make Lesnar full time. Having him once or twice a month is a stupid strategy. Push him to the max while he is still somewhat young.

 

[VoxPop]

Vince needs to take action. Come out to that ring and fire everybody after the next ppv. Shake things up.

He needs to cough up a few more mil as well and make Lesnar full time. Having him once or twice a month is a stupid strategy. Push him to the max while he is still somewhat young.

Like this?

I doubt Brock cares much about the money. The reason he left in the first place was cause of the gruesome schedule. He'd rather show up a few times a year and get paid. WWE needs him more than he needs them.

One guy could only carry the show so far anyway. Rest of the roster is mostly still hot garbage.

 

[sora87]

They need to take the title off of him to at least spark SOMETHING. Rollins has been doing the same shit for SIX MONTHS. He's only regressed since then. It's boring, tiresome, underwhelming and annoying. He is the weakest booked Champion the company has had in a long time, if not ever. He is 1-17 in the last 2 months, the last win on Raw he had was in August. It's shameful how they've booked him and the sooner they take it off of him the better.

I really can't understand why they've done this with Seth, he is genuinely one of the most talented guys on the roster in years, they should have booked him a lot stronger, made him the guy that runs his mouth and takes cheap opportunities but when it comes down to it, he gets the job done.

They also should have kept the Ambrose feud going longer, that was some good stuff.

 

[Rhaknar]

I know you're joking, but I honestly wonder if a return to more 80s/90s gimmicks might be a boon for the industry. Right now, one thing that bothers me is that 95% of the guys are "First name Last name" and have similar music.

With the smash hit success of superhero movies, are people wanting more of that fantasy-style wrestler again?

If only they had someone like that in their roster, who can wrestle and cut promos...

 

[Big Blue]

Return of Attitude?

 

[mreddie]

If only they had someone like that in their roster, who can wrestle and cut promos...

He'll just job to Cena.

 

[Rhaknar]

He'll just job to Cena.

I dont even have any witty comeback to that, its just a fact

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

They've made Seth Rollins look like a joke of a champion and an idiot when at the end of Wrestlemania he looked like a genius. 1-19 record, crazy.

That can't be right. I'm pretty sure he beat Neville on a Monday night and then rolled-up Ambrose to re-grain possession of his belt.

Edit:

Ric Flair and Vince Russo on the decline of wrestling

I wasn't watching WCW during the Russo era and I know he had some issues from what I've read and heard from Eric and others, but he's speaking a lot of truth there.

 

[TheHumanoid]

NXT <3

 

[hamchan]

That can't be right. I'm pretty sure he beat Neville on a Monday night and then rolled-up Ambrose to re-grain possession of his belt.

Check it.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/seth-rollins-3328.html

The Saudi Arabia matches he did a few days ago aren't recorded but we can assume they are losses.

 

[yuraya]

Check it.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/seth-rollins-3328.html

The Saudi Arabia matches he did a few days ago aren't recorded but we can assume they are losses.

Wow that is really just sad. What exactly is Vince trying to achieve by doing this? I don't get it. Just give the title to someone else already.

 

[Valkrai]

That can't be right. I'm pretty sure he beat Neville on a Monday night and then rolled-up Ambrose to re-grain possession of his belt.

Edit:



I wasn't watching WCW during the Russo era and I know he had some issues from what I've read and heard from Eric and others, but he's speaking a lot of truth there.

He's right but I can't get over him saying broh so damn often.

 

[KAP151]

Kane? Seriously? Kane is beating Rollins now?

Why not wheel out (literally) Great Kali?

No wonder I stopped watching.

 

[Shadow780]

If only they had someone like that in their roster, who can wrestle and cut promos...

He can't do good promos yet tho, but yeah his entrance makes everyone wet.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Wait, the current guy with the strap is 1-19 since he won it? How is that even possible? Why devalue your belt like that? When HHH was heel champ...oh right.

No one fears or respects a heel who can't even cheat to win.

Lol at losing clean to Kane and Cena and the Dudleyz repeatedly in the span of two months. It's early 2000s WCW all over again.

 

[crimzonflame]

The NFL used to call Vince McMahon and beg him to switch Raw to another night.

Is this true?

 

[Jimmy King]

Is this true?

maybe in The Monday Night Wars

 

[BoboBrazil]

Great news. Horrible product deserves horrible ratings. It's stale, boring, and can't keep my attention for more than 20 minutes now. There is no reason to care about any of these wrestlers with horrible writing, even steven booking, cena wins, and the inevitable downfall into mediocrity that follows a feud with him.

 

[aspiegamer]

Well, I did my part by watching New Day and then disappearing immediately. Hopefully I have an opportunity to repeat this process in the coming weeks. They were even kind enough to throw in Ambrose at the same time!

Hopefully whoever decided to book the main event has been placed on a rocket and sent into the sun. It was extra depressing since it was advertised as that from the start of the show. Stay tuned for next week, when Seth Rollins will take on the Big Show in a lumberjack match! You know, something refreshing!

 

[Anth0ny]

Wait, the current guy with the strap is 1-19 since he won it? How is that even possible? Why devalue your belt like that? When HHH was heel champ...oh right.

No one fears or respects a heel who can't even cheat to win.

Lol at losing clean to Kane and Cena and the Dudleyz repeatedly in the span of two months. It's early 2000s WCW all over again.

no you see he has the belt so it's okay that he loses all the time clean in non title matches because he's still the champion so he's still over

 

[Plinko]

If only they had someone like that in their roster, who can wrestle and cut promos...

That's what I mean. They've got the talent. Gimmicks like Balor are over huge. It might be time to swing the pendulum back that way a bit.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

Check it.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/seth-rollins-3328.html

The Saudi Arabia matches he did a few days ago aren't recorded but we can assume they are losses.

 

[Uno Venova]

Hope it keeps tanking.

 

[BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!]

So let me get this straight. Rollins:

- Was caught cheating on his fiance, and his dick pix were leaked on the web during an airing of RAW.

- The chick he was cheating with turns out to be a women hating neo-nazi, and he never condemned her behavior.

- He broke Lord Sina's nose.

- Nearly killed Stang in the ring.

- Has the worst ratings of all time as a champion.

How is this man not jobbing to Hornswoggle yet? Let alone still the champion?

He must have pics of Vince fucking a goat or something, there's no other explanation, friends.

 

[DJKhaled]

WWE's problem is they are running low on quality workers and have a lot of toolboxes that are half empty out there trying to act like they have a complete toolset of spots and sequences in their arsenal. 15 minutes "samey" matches with little to no real variance between performers is laughable to call wrestling..

Holy crap, you have no idea what you're talking about, the roster at the moment is extremely talented and probably has the most talent ever besides maybe back in early ruthless aggression era with Eddie, Jericho, Angle, Rey and Benoit.

 

[VoxPop]

So let me get this straight. Rollins:

- Was caught cheating on his fiance, and his dick pix were leaked on the web during an airing of RAW.

- The chick he was cheating with turns out to be a women hating neo-nazi, and he never condemned her behavior.

- He broke Lord Sina's nose.

- Nearly killed Stang in the ring.

- Has the worst ratings of all time as a champion.

How is this man not jobbing to Hornswoggle yet? Let alone still the champion?

He must have pics of Vince fucking a goat or something, there's no other explanation, friends.

Or maybe he's just fucking Vince. You know Vince loves his pretty boys likes HBK on top of his boner for jacked monsters.

 

[Colocho]

Is Seth's 1-19 a meme or something? I agree he has been booked terribly, but he won at Summerslam, he beat Ryback like 2 Smackdowns ago and he beat Sting at NoC. So that's at least 3 wins.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Is Seth's 1-19 a meme or something? I agree he has been booked terribly, but he won at Summerslam, he beat Ryback like 2 Smackdowns ago and he beat Sting at NoC. So that's at least 3 wins.

Smackdown doesn't mean anything.

So what people have seen is Rollins get pinned 3 times straight by John Cena, and then by Kane.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Is Seth's 1-19 a meme or something? I agree he has been booked terribly, but he won at Summerslam, he beat Ryback like 2 Smackdowns ago and he beat Sting at NoC. So that's at least 3 wins.

Is Sting's 0-2 a meme or something? I agree he has been booked terribly, but he won on Raw, he beat Big Show by DQ and he beat Rollins/Big Show in a tag match, so that's at least 2 wins.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

There is no point to give the guy the strap and then bury him.

Rollins should be getting booked to gutsy, crafty, and/or cheating wins against heavyweight vets like Kane and Big Show. And absolutely destroying guys like Sting in squash matches. How does it make your champ look good to struggle against a guy who can't beat HHH in 2015? Almost as dumb as booking Taker over your unbeatable Brock. If the idea is to make your geezers look good...congrats I guess?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Rollins is being booked in a way that isn't relevant to today's audience. This is the era of the big fights. We want dramatic builds to PPV matches that fucking deliver. That's it. Treat wrestling like it matters.