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[Sephzilla]

How did Ziggler's character respond to any of this? It didn't? Because....

because the writers gave him no real air time

 

[JesseEwiak]

Their problem is that their wrestlers have no clear direction, whether that's revenge, a feud for someone or something, or the title.

2003.

Big Show takes out the Undertaker in late 2002, then takes out Lesnar, sides with Angle and Heyman (not a random move, Lesnar needs face turn and he was already showing he was out of control so Paul was irked). Angle then takes care of Benoit who is not just snuck in the main event at RR, it's years in the making (ever since Wrestlemania 16 you could say, but more specifically since when him and Angle were both to Smackdown in 2002). Heyman needs to deal with Lesnar instead, who takes out Big Show, who is then left out? No, he forgot Undertaker who is back to mess him up. Is it over? No, A-Train helps him, setting Undertaker for a WMania match. Lesnar takes out Angle who is out of action. A month that needs filler? Let's make a tournament to put the new guys over and setting up new midcard feuds (Rhyno vs Benoit, Taker vs FBI). Cena comes up, he's perfect because he was heel, trash talks more than he can chew so he can talk big and get beat up just fine. And now that he's out? Big Show wants revenge for Armageddon and the RR still, so let's have him fight Lesnar. Angle is back? Now it's a three-way. What about A-Train? He's not done, he is still set on Undertaker, so you have their SS match. And Lesnar? He's mad Angle got the title, so he drinks Vince's koolaid and turns heel. He finally gets the title back, but what now? Guess what, Undertaker hasn't forgotten Lesnar from 2002 and he's back for more, but now Lesnar got Vince behind him so he's outnumbered. Ok, let's get Stephanie behind Undertaker, it was already a thing in 2002 so. And so on, all the way into Survivor Series, where they also have continuity by having Hardcore Holly come back to smash Lesnar, leading even into a world title match months later.

EDIT: look, here's how such an insignificant thing was built up 12 years ago.

And all of this does not even concern the midcard (US title, Eddie and Benoit, long time believable feud, Rhyno and Benoit, another one, Tajiri being the wildcard from ECW and Japan also), or Rey Mastrio, Billy Kidman, Ultimo Dragon etc. Right now, all WWE has is "let's pull something out the ass as of why Bray Wyatt may have a beef with Rawmen Reins or Taker" and the Shield members going back and forth in a limbo trying to remember whether they love or hate each other to death.

...and people on the Internet were calling that angle dumb back then, and in 12 years, there'll be another nostalgic geek talking about how awesome 2015 WWE was and how they hate RAW in 2027.

 

[JesseEwiak]

because the writers gave him no real air time

...and because even the promos he cuts on the Internet that people point too are awesome are in actuality, terrible promos.

Dolph's not a good promo. Period. He's over because he overbumps and in 2015, that's what people on the Internet thinks makes you a "good" worker.

 

[Sephzilla]

...and because even the promos he cuts on the Internet that people point too are awesome are in actuality, terrible promos.

Dolph's not a good promo. Period. He's over because he overbumps and in 2015, that's what people on the Internet thinks makes you a "good" worker.

Well I'm not disagreeing with you here

 

[Deleted member 47027]

because the writers gave him no real air time

Tell me about any time, off-air, that Ziggler has shown any personality. All other talent have no problem with it. He was even a sucking void of a human being on Swerved.

 

[Anth0ny]

...and because even the promos he cuts on the Internet that people point too are awesome are in actuality, terrible promos.

Dolph's not a good promo. Period. He's over because he overbumps and in 2015, that's what people on the Internet thinks makes you a "good" worker.

his overbumping style is still more exciting than the majority of the roster, though

I wouldn't say he's a good worker by any means, but I'd rather watch a ziggler match than most other matches. orton is probably a better worker but he's boring and stale as FUCK.

 

[Paracelsus]

...and people on the Internet were calling that angle dumb back then, and in 12 years, there'll be another nostalgic geek talking about how awesome 2015 WWE was and how they hate RAW in 2027.

Your argument stopped working several years ago, I've never seen people going later than 2009 with nostalgia, and that's a stretch. As for the angle, if you mean Taker vs FBI, we've seen worse like Austin in 2001. As a matter of fact, that was arguably his worst year of entertainment, he was so forced and corny. I was just trying to point out how the writing from the low midcard all the way into the main event in a year like 2003 was perfectly cohesive no matter how bad were the characters involved in it (and Nathan Jones was awful).

 

[The Silver]

What really opened my eyes to Ziggler not being all that in the ring(I always thought he was terrible as a character/promo) was that ladder match with Luke Harper.

That match that Ziggler said he wanted to become a classic had no storytelling or flow whatsoever, just moving from spot to spot for no real reason and Ziggler overselling like a jackass.

 

[G-Fex]

lol this is just wrasslegaf ot 2

 

[JesseEwiak]

Your argument stopped working several years ago, I've never seen people going later than 2009 with nostalgia, and that's a stretch. As for the angle, if you mean Taker vs FBI, we've seen worse like Austin in 2001. As a matter of fact, that was arguably his worst year of entertainment, he was so forced and corny. I was just trying to point out how the writing from the low midcard all the way into the main event in a year like 2003 was perfectly cohesive no matter how bad were the characters involved in it (and Nathan Jones was awful).

Yes, and my point is, even if it was supposedly more cohesive, the Internet still said it was horrible, so if you're the WWE, why try, when your actual core fans won't get it anyway and the hardcore fans will complain about anything you do that doesn't involve Cesaro vs. Daniel Bryan in Iron Man matches weekly.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

...and people on the Internet were calling that angle dumb back then, and in 12 years, there'll be another nostalgic geek talking about how awesome 2015 WWE was and how they hate RAW in 2027.

...and because even the promos he cuts on the Internet that people point too are awesome are in actuality, terrible promos.

Dolph's not a good promo. Period. He's over because he overbumps and in 2015, that's what people on the Internet thinks makes you a "good" worker.

Yes, and my point is, even if it was supposedly more cohesive, the Internet still said it was horrible, so if you're the WWE, why try, when your actual core fans won't get it anyway and the hardcore fans will complain about anything you do that doesn't involve Cesaro vs. Daniel Bryan in Iron Man matches weekly.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7581626

 

[Angry Grimace]

This is what I don't understand. WWE is a business, and businesses need to make money. They make money by making their product to fans, who are essentially customers.

If you have a guy who is getting pops left, right and centre, why the he'll wouldn't you shove him to the forefront? I've never understood Vince's logic in cherry picking top stars. If I ran a sandwich shop and I was getting a bucketload of requests for a particular filling, I wouldn't force people to have cheese and pickle instead.

Ziggler has been on the brink of exploding arenas yet he ends up in a mid-card love triangle feud to nowhere.

Legit question: who the hell is marking out for fucking Ziggler? Dude sucks. This is why the Ziggler-Breezus feud is funny - because its Zigs feuding with himself.

I'm not only not gonna ding management for not pushing Ziggler, I'm going to give them kudos for recognizing a C+ talent when they see it.

 

[RBH]

BREAKING: Last night in Dublin, IRL, @WWE Champion @WWERollins suffered right ACL/MCL/medial meniscus tears; out 6-9 months.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheCoachESPN/status/662352814807629824

WWE World Heavyweight Champion Seth Rollins has torn his right ACL, MCL and medial meniscus, and will not be able to defend the title against Roman Reigns at Survivor Series. A tournament to determine a new champion will instead take place at the event.

http://www.wwe.com/inside/seth-rollins-injury-title-tournament-survivor-series-28164051

 

[cr_blah_blah]

...and because even the promos he cuts on the Internet that people point too are awesome are in actuality, terrible promos.

Dolph's not a good promo. Period. He's over because he overbumps and in 2015, that's what people on the Internet thinks makes you a "good" worker.

Yes, and my point is, even if it was supposedly more cohesive, the Internet still said it was horrible, so if you're the WWE, why try, when your actual core fans won't get it anyway and the hardcore fans will complain about anything you do that doesn't involve Cesaro vs. Daniel Bryan in Iron Man matches weekly.

...and people on the Internet were calling that angle dumb back then, and in 12 years, there'll be another nostalgic geek talking about how awesome 2015 WWE was and how they hate RAW in 2027.

Jesse, have you ever thought of maybe stepping away from the internet? The vast majority of your wrestling posts are always focused on it, it doesn't seem healthy and you never seem to act any way except superior and pompous when talking about it.

 

[Into]

Its a shameful thing, Lobster Head
A careless man
Wound up dead
With too many eyes
Too many eyes
Too many eyes

OOOOOOOh

YOU NEW DUBYA DUBYA E' SHAMPION!

 

[UberTag]

There ya go, Seth's leg did come through after all. You get all of your slammies back. Shame about how severe that injury turned out to be as even making it back for Mania Star Symbol looks doubtful.

WWE Creative now actually has to be creative and do some work... which will hopefully result in Roman Reigns as the new champion... although given the absence of a top heel I actually expect them to jump the gun on turning Ambrose and will coronate Roman at next year's Mania.

Incidentally, a world title tournament at Survivor Series without Lesnar makes absolutely zero sense so good luck spinning that to the masses.

Jesse, have you ever thought of maybe stepping away from the internet? The vast majority of your wrestling posts are always focused on it, it doesn't seem healthy and you never seem to act any way except superior and pompous when talking about it.

Jesse still believes the IWC is an actual thing instead of some fictitious creation by the WWE that no longer exists.
It was a justifable argument back when 10-15% of the WWE's fans used the Internet on a regular basis. When 100% of your fanbase is Internet savvy, there is no IWC. That's just your customer base.

 

[Paracelsus]

There ya go, Seth's leg did come through after all. You get all of your slammies back.

WWE Creative now actually has to be creative and do some work... which will hopefully result in Roman Reigns as the new champion... although given the absence of a top heel I actually expect them to jump the gun on turning Ambrose and will coronate Roman at next year's Mania.

Incidentally, a world title tournament at Survivor Series without Lesnar makes absolutely zero sense so good luck spinning that to the masses.

WWE needs someone to sell tens of thousands of shirts for years, I'm not sure you book someone for his first world title win at SurSer, especially if not ready.

It's the perfect moment for someone whom the crowd is firmly behind to get to the finals of the tournament only to get screwed, see Ho Stan in 98. It even worked with a transitional face champion while Austin was running amok smacking the corporation around.

 

[UberTag]

WWE needs someone to sell tens of thousands of shirts for years, I'm not sure you book someone for his first world title win at SurSer, especially if not ready.

Cousin Dwayne made his first ever world title win at Survivor Series pan out. Why can't Cousin Roman?

Back to my earlier point, the only thing more hilarious and impossible to fathom than a world title tournament at Survivor Series without Brock is the world champion crippling himself in IRELAND and the IRISH Money in the Bank briefcase holder not being called out for an audible to win the championship on his home turf. I really hope Sheamus was working the other tour that night so there's some semblance of an excuse. <reads up> No wait, he actually wrestled Balor in the match directly prior to the main event.

Hell, that would have been quite the story. Sheamus cashes in to win the world title after having just lost to the reigning NXT champ earlier that same night. So Balor would have a legit claim. You know what would have spiked ratings and made things interesting as fuck from a booking standpoint? THAT would have done it.

Incidentally, it would also be idiotic for Bray to not have any interest in winning the world title by using his new superpowers. But, of course, that program's already booked so that ain't happening. Bray looks like a chump once again.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

WWE needs someone to sell tens of thousands of shirts for years, I'm not sure you book someone for his first world title win at SurSer, especially if not ready.

Sting debuted at Survivor Series.

 

[Paracelsus]

Sting debuted at Survivor Series.

Cousin Dwayne made his first ever world title win at Survivor Series pan out. Why can't Cousin Roman?

Rock already had a great feud with Austin a year earlier and HHH months earlier, two great programs better than anything Reigns will ever do, and for a midcard belt to boot. He was in a whole different league and went over before he even turned fully face. He could talk, he could carry himself, he was trash talking against the most over face of the 90s, and he also had the added bonus of Daniel Bryankind. The whole angle worked, even the corporation turning on him making him more over than he already was. It was a different era with a lot more solutions available.

Reigns feels like this: Do you love him now? [NO] Ok, let's move on, do this and that. Do you love him now? [NO] and so on.

 

[UberTag]

Rock already had a great feud with Austin a year earlier and HHH months earlier, two great programs better than anything Reigns will ever do, and for a midcard belt to boot. He was in a whole different league and went over before he even turned fully face. He could talk, he could carry himself, he was trash talking against the most over face of the 90s, and he also had the added bonus of Daniel Bryankind. The whole angle worked, even the corporation turning on him making him more over than he already was. It was a different era with a lot more solutions available.

Reigns feels like this: Do you love him now? [NO] Ok, let's move on, do this and that. Do you love him now? [NO] and so on.

Not refuting any of the above. Thing is, the Roman title reign is going to happen. Whether he's ready or not. Whether we love him or not. What's the difference between pulling the trigger now with a golden opportunity at Survivor Series versus making us all wait until he's supposedly "ready" (which he won't be - they'll just keep doing the same shit they've done thus far) at Mania.

My argument is that he's as ready now as he's ever going to be. Best case scenario is that they turn him heel in the process and let him roll over Ambrose for a few months. Builds nicely to a title program at Mania for a heel Roman to face either Dwayne, Cena or Brock for the gold. Roman wins. Rollins comes back for the post-Mania feud.

 

[Hasney]

Its a shameful thing, Lobster Head
A careless man
Wound up dead
With too many eyes
Too many eyes
Too many eyes

OOOOOOOh

YOU NEW DUBYA DUBYA E' SHAMPION!

How low can those ratings go

What a time to be alive

 

[fader]

is it selfish of me to want roman to bomb like lex luger?

 

[Archaix]

is it selfish of me to want roman to bomb like lex luger?

Only if you consider it selfish to want to enjoy a show you are otherwise fond of. Roman is death on TV. He looks like his loved ones are being held backstage at gunpoint every time he has to speak.

 

[Hasney]

is it selfish of me to want roman to bomb like lex luger?

He will. That's not even a dig at Roman, that's just because everyone they put int hat position will because they don't seem capable of putting on a television show people want to watch anymore.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Can't stand this face he makes all the time

 

[Archaix]

Can't stand this face he makes all the time

That's the one. The "please, send help, I love my family and my country but they're making me say these things" face.

 

[Mizerman]

The first time I saw him making that face, it was humorous. And that wasn't a good thing, either.

Couldn't take it seriously.

 

[Chopper]

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheCoachESPN/status/662352814807629824


http://www.wwe.com/inside/seth-rollins-injury-title-tournament-survivor-series-28164051

Dammit. Gutted.

 

[RBH]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

 

[tchocky]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

Since I doubt HHH is going to have another title run I wonder if the plan was to have Rollins retain and beat CM Punks title streak.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

I'm guessing Stephanie vs Rousey with maybe a lumberjill scenario where Steph throws the whole diva crew and they get wrecked

Also what a fucking shifty Wrestlemania, good lord

 

[BadAss2961]

Only if you consider it selfish to want to enjoy a show you are otherwise fond of. Roman is death on TV. He looks like his loved ones are being held backstage at gunpoint every time he has to speak.

lol. They rushed this dude so bad. Shame because he really does have good potential.

He'd still be ahead of the game had they just kept him as the stone faced badass that gets shit done until he learns to talk. For example, I think he's way better than Batista was at this stage in his career. I never thought much of him until he got really good on the mic one day.

 

[UberTag]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

Also what a fucking shifty Wrestlemania, good lord

Yeah, that would have been an absolute garbage card for the biggest Mania of all-time. Cena and Taker are conspicuous by their absence as well.

Nobody wants to cheer Triple H... who do they think they're kidding? Plus, their top heels would supposedly be Rollins (who has lost to everybody), Ambrose (because they presumably want Reigns to be their new always-face) and Dwayne (because nobody in their right mind is going to boo Brock at Mania).

 

[kirblar]

Cena/Taker being missing makes me think they're finally doing that match while they can.

 

[Chocolate Thunder]

Cena/Taker being missing makes me think they're finally doing that match while they can.

Thats what I thought.

 

[Anth0ny]

makes sense they'd save Cena/Taker for the supposed biggest mania of all time

in their minds that's probably the biggest match possible (ignoring rock, of course, who is a legit god tier mainstream star).

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

New champion? Save us, Kane!!

 

[funkystudent]

Seth being out forces them to do something different and normally WWE can produce some good stuff when their ass in above the fire.


But what will be the most boring thing to do now?


I will say instead of doing a multi matc tournament on one night or over the next few weeks they do beat the clock matches each raw from here till SS to find out who is in the title match at the PPV.

Beat the Clock RAW's are the worst. THE WORST!

 

[Marvel]

New champion? Save us, Kane!!

Which version tho?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

Brock/Rock is okay by me, Reigns/Ambrose seems good except for the probability that Reigns goes over heel Ambrose and HHH/Rollins would have been hot garbage.

lol. They rushed this dude so bad. Shame because he really does have good potential.

He'd still be ahead of the game had they just kept him as the stone faced badass that gets shit done until he learns to talk. For example, I think he's way better than Batista was at this stage in his career. I never thought much of him until he got really good on the mic one day.

Roman should say nothing for 3 years until he finally is coaxed into saying SUCK IT

 

[Son Of D]

Brock/Rock is okay by me, Reigns/Ambrose seems good except for the probability that Reigns goes over heel Ambrose and HHH/Rollins would have been hot garbage.

HHH/Rollins could have been good with a face Rollins and not for the title.

 

[SpideySenses]

Anyone who has a problem with Rock/Brock is crazy, that's the biggest mainstream match WWE has, as much as the company has a problem promoting part timers over its young stars, when it's such a big match then it can be the exception to the rule.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

Why does HHH constantly keep going back to being a face? Doesn't he know by now he makes a shitty face?

Anyone who has a problem with Rock/Brock is crazy, that's the biggest mainstream match WWE has, as much as the company has a problem promoting part timers over its young stars, when it's such a big match then it can be the exception to the rule.

Not to mention that WM is in Dallas this year and they are going to have to find a way to sell over 100,000 tickets.

 

[Anth0ny]

HHH/Rollins could have been good with a face Rollins and not for the title.

Totally. that would actually make sense.

HHH going for the fucking title in 2016 makes no sense at all. the heel authority figure that has been screwing everyone for the last couple of years going babyface makes no sense at all

ah fuck it

Why does HHH constantly keep going back to being a face? Doesn't he know by now he makes a shitty face?

you call that a shitty face?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Anyone who has a problem with Rock/Brock is crazy, that's the biggest mainstream match WWE has, as much as the company has a problem promoting part timers over its young stars, when it's such a big match then it can be the exception to the rule.

My biggest problem with Rock/Brock is that it's a match that demands to go on last, but the ME should always be the title match.

 

[Chamber]

HHH/Rollins with Hunter as the face? And you know Hunter was going over too.

 

[kirblar]

Heel Reigns/face Ambrose is the dynamic they need to do- Reigns has needed to turn for a while now anyway.

Just have him screw Ambrose at some point in the tourney in the course of going for the title.

 

[XenoRaven]

My biggest problem with Rock/Brock is that it's a match that demands to go on last, but the ME should always be the title match.

They learned this isn't the case at WM18 when HHH/Jericho had to go on after Rock/Hogan.

 

[Ithil]

Dave Meltzer said that before Seth Rollins' injury, the original plans for WrestleMania 32 were Brock/Rock, Reigns/Ambrose, and HHH/Rollins for the title (with HHH as the face).

Thus far I've not seen any actual source for him saying this. I just see people claiming he did.