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Yoshida: Wii U will inspire Vita experiments
- Thread starter Elios83
- Start date
CamHostage
Member
Londa said:
This topic has already been beat to death in the thread, but just as an aside, we're talking about a system in Wii U that developers can either only make games exclusively for (in which case, it better be a massive success if Nintendo expects killer apps only for play on its system, it didn't work out so hot for Wii) or else port cross-platform games to with minor tablet enhancements. So the option to share work makes for more safe support (even if the PS3/PSV version is almost guaranteed to be inferior due to the less handshake-friendly hardware.)
And second, what Nintendo is doing is not a new idea, Sony has been doing remote play for years and also showed off the remote mirror demo that sadly never got used in games (its streaming is also similar to some ideas OnLive is using as well as some Android/iOS apps for media remotes), and of course Nintendo itself showed off the idea in a wired implementation with Zelda Four Swords.
What Nintendo is doing here, much like with Wii, is it is boldly pushing forward with technology that many tried or that many have had (or currently have) plans for but, have been too just wussy to jump in on. Nintendo leads, and others have no choice but to bow to the master strategists who managed to play what was thought to be an unwinnable hand, and sheepishly allow Nintendo's shadow to hang over their every tentative move into this previously uncharted territory. If you want to bag on Sony, bag on them for being pussies, not thieves.
Londa said:
The way Wii U appears to work essentially is that the console is dual-monitoring; one video unit gets the HD stream, and the other gets a much simpler rendering of maps or ninja stars or whatever. The tablet itself has very little in terms of hardware, the console does all the heavy lifting, and the tablet just accepts the feed and spits back control instructions.
It's ingenious, and it's something that would be significantly difficult for Sony to pull off. (Remote Play can feed the PSP video stream and output the TV signal but it's always been just the system status text, we've never seen anything deeper; lag is painful with Remote Play currently even with local wireless; USB connectivity would be silly.) Sony for sure has cross-platform app ideas already brewing (much like the "Wing Mirror" design,) but pulling off exactly the plug-and-play-and-love-it design that Wii U offers would be exceedingly difficult and fairly clumsy. That said, there's nothing stopping Sony from doing much of what Wii U does, they have all of the pieces already.
gofreak said:
...But I think you could do it with PS3/Vita over a streaming video signal, if you really wanted to. (The Vita will for sure have Game Sharing like PSP and so it's just a matter of adding an App Share to the PS3 menu, but even a Bluetooth connection between PS3 and Vita is a challenge for some people.) 802.11b for sure held the tech back. And as has been pointed out, btw, Remote Play does spit out two feeds like what's called for, we've just only seen the second feed used for text so far. (Remote Play has also been used in Vaio laptops and other Sony devices, though I'm not sure how it's been implemented?) Also, we're not talking so far about much more than map screens and ninja stars and touchable pokemans, the lag in a video stream wouldn't necessarily be a hindrance to a good portion of the games that would use it.
It doesn't really matter what's possible though, half of PS3s don't have WiFi and Remote Play streaming from the internet would just be too much hassle and lag for the types of games we're talking about, so it's probably a moot point. Better the app approach.
OneMoreQuestion
Member
I was just thinking, is it possible to use Bluetooth instead of Wifi if someone just wants to use the Vita as a glorified controller for the PS3? That's what the dualshock is utilising anyway...
Well the PSP could, so I'd assume the significantly more powerful, significantly more network capable replacement would be able to as well.StickSoldier said:
Why? Remote play had some lag when working over the 802.11b networked PSP with limited hardware, but the Vita could link to the system either via an 802.11n network (which makes a huge difference), bluetooth (when at home) or even both if the extra bandwidth control communications would take up exceeded the bottleneck of an 802.11n connection.Slime said:
There is a reason why the Wii U works within the same room as the system. Sony designed Remote Play to be usable over an entirely different local network calling back to the home system. Doesn't sound like latency would be much of an issue if they focus on the home network side of things.
How much do you think the Vita userbase overlaps with the PS3 userbase? 85-90%? People who will buy Vita will almost all own a PS3.
More importantly, even if it was only a 50% ratio and even if the Vita only moved a few million units a year, if Sony provides similar dev libraries within the PS3 and/or Vita kits to what Nintendo is offering why wouldn't a 3rd party making a cross platform game with Wii U specific features include it with the PS3 version? It would take very little additional effort to further differentiate your game from the competition on yet another platform.
Again, I don't see why people assume this. Is the Wii U magic? Does only Nintendo have access to this level of streaming despite Sony as a company being a pioneer in this field for a decade before Nintendo even stuck a toe in the water? I just don't see the logic here. The Vita can more than handle it on it's end and the PS3 has already shown a wide array of similar features over different lines of communication with a far weaker partner (PSP). Doesn't seem like much of a stretch at all. In fact, it seems like a natural progression.
Maleficence
Member
As others have said Sony can make this work fairly easily by having an application running on both the console and the handheld rather than using remote play. I can imagine a developer including an option to plug in your vita while the PS3 game is running and download the app and have it run on your vita, this could also sync up the 2. From here the Vita runs the processing for say inventory and diary and menus etc for uncharted while the main game is played on the PS3, and they communicate any changes made.
It's not complicated at all, and doesn't require 2 copies of the game.
Sony should take this idea and push it heavily to all PS3 devs. If they can think up applications for WiiU in a game they can do the same or more with the PSV and PS3.
It will of course be an option only, but I think it's a pretty cool idea, and combined with the cloud saving concept revealed in the conference will prove this combo, while more expensive, to be the better of the two.
It's not complicated at all, and doesn't require 2 copies of the game.
Sony should take this idea and push it heavily to all PS3 devs. If they can think up applications for WiiU in a game they can do the same or more with the PSV and PS3.
It will of course be an option only, but I think it's a pretty cool idea, and combined with the cloud saving concept revealed in the conference will prove this combo, while more expensive, to be the better of the two.
Has anybody mentioned that Singstar on PS3 can use the PSP as a second screen to build playlists while the main display is used to play the game? That's available today and has been in Singstar for some time now. It doesn't involve any special app on the PSP, just standard remote play.
The Vita could do the same thing but with the benefit of the touchscreen and all the other control inputs.
So not sure why people are saying it's not possible on PS3 or that Sony would just be copying Nintendo.
The Vita could do the same thing but with the benefit of the touchscreen and all the other control inputs.
So not sure why people are saying it's not possible on PS3 or that Sony would just be copying Nintendo.
Callibretto
Member
chubigans said:
even if it could, Remote Play is literally just stream a video to handheld. Wii-u is much more than that. I still think running app for Vita is the better approach. Vita's advantage is that they have actual cpu/gpu in there to do the work. no need for PS3 to do all the work.
Smiles and Cries
Member
the hints are already out there that it may be too hard to stream two of these U Controllers to the Wii U
so you need both hardware to be ready to do that PS3/Vita maybe able to do a few of the things the U does in the end of experimenting but SONY needs to take this Idea and run with it to the PS4 its a good direction for gaming IMO
Like the Wiimote whatever issues the U Controllers may have today I hope they can be at Wii Motion Plus level 2.0 by launch (maybe there are no issues and Nintendo is too tight lipped about the plans for more than one of these things streaming to the same console)
so you need both hardware to be ready to do that PS3/Vita maybe able to do a few of the things the U does in the end of experimenting but SONY needs to take this Idea and run with it to the PS4 its a good direction for gaming IMO
Like the Wiimote whatever issues the U Controllers may have today I hope they can be at Wii Motion Plus level 2.0 by launch (maybe there are no issues and Nintendo is too tight lipped about the plans for more than one of these things streaming to the same console)
Have you used Remote Play before? You could actually play games over it, controlling them with the PSP. It didn't work well because the PSP 1. uses 802.11b, 2. its hardware got swamped with even the incoming data of an 802.11b connection and 3. its interface was vastly inferior to the controller all the compatible games were designed for.Callibretto said:
The PS Vita fixes all of those issues.
Unless it comes in some sort of bundle for under $300 this whole thing is meaningless from a consumer standpoint. Why would they be inspired by Wii U anyways? It didn't exactly excite people. This is a good oppurtunity for Sony, make a motion controller the standard controller for PS4. Preferrably something that has the fidelity of the move but doesn't look like the move. They Razer Hyrdra is cool:
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Think about it this way:
If one of your biggest competitors just announced a brand new product with its main function being something that your own system could already do, wouldn't you immediately put out a press release announcing this fact to the world?
If Vita could do what the Wii U does, we'd have heard it by now. Sony would be jumping all over themselves trying to get that news out to the media.
If one of your biggest competitors just announced a brand new product with its main function being something that your own system could already do, wouldn't you immediately put out a press release announcing this fact to the world?
If Vita could do what the Wii U does, we'd have heard it by now. Sony would be jumping all over themselves trying to get that news out to the media.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Drek said:
If it did, we'd have heard it already. I can guarantee you it doesn't fix all of those issues.
Nor should it, actually. Sony is on a great path right now--they seem to be the only company dead set on keeping the "core" gamers front and center.
Plinko said:
No they wouldn't. They do what they're doing now - when asked, say 'yeah, it's possible'. Then go away, evaluate it, and show stuff if and when they have anything interesting to show. They're not going to start firing out press releases before they commit to it as a functionality they'll use or support.
There's no technical barrier at all to this kind of interplay between Vita and PS3. I wouldn't do it with streaming though, native apps running locally on both machines is the better option.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
gofreak said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. The day after the announcement of the Wii U would be the absolute best time to announce this if it was possible--it would take all of the thunder away from Nintendo.
"Oh, yeah--that Wii U thing? Our stuff can already do it."
We haven't heard it and we won't hear it because it's not possible right now because of the PS3/Vita.
When the PS4 comes out, my guess is that will change.
Open Source
Banned
I think people are missing the big difference, which is that everyone with a Wii U will have one of these controllers. Thus, developers can implement interesting functionality knowing that it will get used.
There is, Wifi G is not fast enough for smooth on the fly HD video streaming. Plus ATI just boasted that this is possible "thanks to their" Eyefinity tech. I have tried many streaming solution on PC and they are far from good. Would need a dedicated video encoder.gofreak said:
CamHostage
Member
Plinko said:
The day before would have actually been the absolute best time to announce this. It's too bad they didn't have a demo with say Sackboy running around in a stage on PS3 that you can manipulate the layout with Vita. Maybe they didn't out of professional courtesy, they for sure knew what Vita was?
As a lover of Four Swords, I always thought that console+portable would make for a killer gaming device, as soon as I saw the click-sticks of NGP I thought it would make an even better controller than DualShock. Sony's damned lucky that Nintendo is showing the way because even though the ideas and technology are there, Sony is often too cautious to pull the trigger.
Lonely1 said:
You don't need video streaming to do this stuff. Talking about the interplay stuff here, not remote play of games - that'll still bump into lag. But the other stuff, like having a map or inventory or different aspects of a game run on the controller while you play a game on the TV is completely doable on Vita - with software running locally on Vita in tandem with the PS3, rather than running on PS3 and being streamed to Vita.
i'm confused. earlier in the thread it was discussed that latency would be an issue for Vita\PS3 gaming. the discussed solution was to execute code on both the vita\PS3 to avoid having to do actual video streaming. but then when the topic turned to devs being able to leverage work\experience done on WiiU to add the same functionality to Vita\PS3 i got confused. i understand that it would make a lot of sense to have a comparable experience on both platforms, i just don't understand how those totally different concepts (console designed for streaming video\tablet interaction vs. Vita\PS3 each running their own program) are going to make it easier for devs. from a design or gameplay concept standpoint, sure. but i'm not sure about the execution.
reading over this i understand this a lot better. nobody is even talking about playing PS3 games on the Vita. that was my screw-up. i still wonder if the outcome would be as seamless as WiiU (assuming WiiU is seamless.)?
gofreak said:
reading over this i understand this a lot better. nobody is even talking about playing PS3 games on the Vita. that was my screw-up. i still wonder if the outcome would be as seamless as WiiU (assuming WiiU is seamless.)?
DeathNote said:
no idea. might have to do with the fact the the PS3 was finalized without as much thought to this. sure, the Vita is new but that's only half of the puzzle. the PS3 is still a PS3. it's all pretty interesting though and i'd like to see where this is going as i'm going to own a Vita and a WiiU.
gofreak said:
do you think it would be a small side app that you download on the Vita per game or could the app for each game theoretically be included on each disc and then sent to the Vita?
DeathNote said:
Nintendo's signals just travel faster.
Actually it's more likely to be due to processing within the Wii U console, there will be dedicated hardware to get the rendered image to the wireless transmitter as quickly as possible. The PS3 would have to have to use a software implementation I guess.
Callibretto
Member
Drek said:
the PS3 screen (you hdtv) basically switch off during remote play, you got message saying remote play is in progress. in Wii-U, the HDTV is still functioning and can display something different altogether than the Tablet screen. current Remote Play can't do that
Hmm. I think we're all getting a little tangled up.
Let's split what Nintendo's showed.
Full game streaming - you can do a somewhat improved version of this on Vita/PS3 than PSP/PS3 (e.g. if you use bluetooth to send commands rather than wifi for everything), but it won't be as good as Wii U. And obviously isn't universal, depends on what games support remote play anyway.
Everything else - do this with local app running on Vita and co-ordinating with PS3 game. Perfectly doable and don't have to worry about latency. I think these are the use cases Yoshida is thinking about - using it as a controller-with-screen, a second screen in addition to the TV while playing games.
That's how I see it.
The Vita software would come with the PS3 game and get sent over when the game's played in 'vita mode'. (This is all presuming a supporting framework from Sony, of course.)
Let's split what Nintendo's showed.
Full game streaming - you can do a somewhat improved version of this on Vita/PS3 than PSP/PS3 (e.g. if you use bluetooth to send commands rather than wifi for everything), but it won't be as good as Wii U. And obviously isn't universal, depends on what games support remote play anyway.
Everything else - do this with local app running on Vita and co-ordinating with PS3 game. Perfectly doable and don't have to worry about latency. I think these are the use cases Yoshida is thinking about - using it as a controller-with-screen, a second screen in addition to the TV while playing games.
That's how I see it.
jaypah said:
The Vita software would come with the PS3 game and get sent over when the game's played in 'vita mode'. (This is all presuming a supporting framework from Sony, of course.)
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