Support NeoGAF

[Windom Earle]

The story about Popola and Devola with alchohol in them, haha. :lol

Yeah, Popola is quite the cock fiend :lol

 

[sonicmj1]

I think if you appreciate a fantastic story that is better than most videogames ever made, and a soundtrack that is DEFINITELY better than most videogames ever made, you'll enjoy Nier.

Ultimately, Nier was one of my favorite games of the year. But that's because I have a high tolerance for tedium.

I beat every sidequest that I encountered in that game. Most of them were, mechanically, awful. I didn't completely understand fishing until I beat the final quest. I fell asleep twice playing that minigame. A lot of the fetchquesting was not fun at all. And I found the combat very uninspired. If you play games for fun, Nier does not give you much fun.

The game made up for it, for me, with the best soundtrack of the year, a very intriguing story with a strong NG+, and some well-made setpieces. And though a lot of the sidequests sucked, they fleshed out the world in very fulfilling ways. Some didn't give you any real reward (including some of the most time-consuming sidequests in that game), but that's the the way things are in that game. I admired its subversiveness at times.

But even though I liked it, there's nothing crazy about disliking it. More reviewers probably should have seen its charms, but I'm not shocked at the consensus.

 

[Zachack]

This is what I don't get, nitpicks like this seem to hit Nier where it would be ignored in the case of other games. The length of a tour, which the game asks you if you want to skip, really?

The game has a lot of those little things. I knew about hitting start and wasn't particularly bothered by that but it's more representative of other issues.

I really don't get it, I feel like I've been playing different games this generation from most people. Are Japanese games just so refined that they're held to a different standard from the rest of the world? Or is there just a bias towards western marketing styles that has been propagated by the media? It's like a lower budget game from a Japanese developer has 20 walls set up in front of it before it can be judged equally with other games.

If anything Japanese games tend to be fairly closed off in terms of "sandbox gameplay", at least to most people playing them (people who do things like analyze the old Sonic games for angles shouldn't be considered). Thus, when a restricted form of gameplay has problems, those problems become much more evident.

Just take a step back for a second and think about the mechanics. Has anyone here played Assassin's Creed? That was the last game I played before Nier, and the fluidity of controls and character movement is like night and day. AC feels like something straight out of 1999 in comparison, despite being a game focused on movement, while Nier is an action RPG (compare to others in its genre such as Devil Summoner).

I'm not certain you understand the difference in concept between a game like AC (particularly AC2/Bro) and Nier and why they control differently. If anything, what you're doing is what people are accusing reviewers of, in that you aren't taking into account the game's intentions.

The combat system and dungeon design are at the very least on par with Kingdom Hearts, despite taking on the more complex world design of Zelda, rather than a KH-esque stage select.

Kingdom Hearts is a low bar and if we're going to play review comparison IGN gave KH2 a 7.6, so I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing for. Then again, 1UP gave KH2 an A+ so... I dunno. This kind of complaining comes across as similar to people complaining that a movie they love doesn't get 100% on RT, and it's particularly bad for games where people still gravitate towards sites and scores rather than individual reviewers.

I'll also argue that the world design is much more KH than "traditional" Zelda (I feel that TP did a bad job of what people expect in Zelda). There really isn't any meaningful exploration.

I just don't understand. When people review this game, it's like they've already decided the quality of the game based on its preconceived image and then try to make the facts fit. I know reviewing games is an impossible job due to time constraints and that all reviewers lie about playing games or taking time to actually think through their articles, but I just can't help but feel this game has especially been done over by the process.

If you just handed someone a copy of Nier with no other information there is a strong chance they will dislike it. They won't know that most of the sidequests are garbage and pointless. They won't know that crafting and planting (the latter being extremely slow) is relatively useless. They might not recognize the genre conventions being referenced, particularly when a couple aren't done that well (or alternatively, emulate them too well). They might spend time in the field zone thinking that there's a point to doing so besides grinding.

The game simply has a lot of weak points that can be mistakenly stumbled into and engaged rather than avoiding. One of the most common suggestions in this thread is to skip most of the sidequests, and when you start they're everywhere. It's not that other games don't have similar issues, but better reviewed games tend to do a better job of hiding them or being set up in a way that players won't notice them as much. KH1 did a much better job of the latter (in large part via a constant Disney nostalgia blast) than KH2, and it shows in some of the reviews and long-term feedback.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Funnily enough I actually think Nier was promoted pretty damn well considering how important it was/is to keep the story as mysterious as possible.
Check out these trailers, because I think especially after you've played the game you'll appreciate how on-point they are, without giving too much away.

Welcome to the Nier Trailer Park.

Let's start at the beginning:
E3 '09 Teaser

Guess that's what SE US office expected... hmmm. I presume E3 was where an ill-fated promo backstage really hurt it in the eyes of the critics. Roll on a couple of months, and at TGS we suddenly get a far more accurate picture of what Nier is all about.

TGS '09 - "Replicant"

TGS '09 - "Gestalt"

The final tagline about "looking into the mirror" was a pretty big hint about NG+, shame it got confused with the Gestalt/Replicant versioning.

Rolling along...
NA Release Trailer

They also released 3 themed trailers; 2 of which were pretty easy to find...
"Shades" Trailer
"Magic" Trailer
...but the third one is somewhat more obscure. And quite spoilery of some big moments
"Companions" Trailer

And then there was this...
Alt. Launch Trailer
Basically the intro of the game.

and lastly
"accolades" trailer
aka the "some people like it" trailer.

I think those trailers are all pretty good!

Thank you, I was just about to post something like this. The trailers specifically went out of their way to promote the fact that "this isn't what you think it is" (because it's a little bit of everything). The story, and most definitely the music are front and center in each one. I can't see where people are getting the idea that this was poorly promoted.

 

[Femmeworth]

You can skip the sand skiff segments by pressing start.

You can skip the tour as a whole by just saying you don't want to take it, I think.

True, but only bad people turn down Fyra.

 

[InfiniteNine]

True, but only bad people turn down Fyra.

Very true! She's so cute with her hand gestures who can turn that down?

 

[Yoshiya]

True, but only bad people turn down Fyra.

I approve of this message. I actually think the moments the game changes the pacing (like the tour) are important, if boring, as they help to subvert expectations of the game. That the game is willing to take players of of the combat context and litetrally show them around the city for an extended length of time shows how the game isn't seeking to just be the usual empowerment fantasies so many games end up appearing as (though it is very very good you can skip it :lol ).

 

[Gravijah]

Fyra!

Spoiler

-weeps softly to self-

 

[Foxix Von]

I started my second playthrough this morning....

This is incredible!

 

[Femmeworth]

I started my second playthrough this morning....

This is incredible!

Isn't it?

The next time that you start over from the very beginning of the game,

Spoiler

pay attention to what is in Kaine's hut when it zooms in to show the lunar tears.

;_;

 

[TheShampion]

If you just handed someone a copy of Nier with no other information there is a strong chance they will dislike it. They won't know that most of the sidequests are garbage and pointless. They won't know that crafting and planting (the latter being extremely slow) is relatively useless. They might not recognize the genre conventions being referenced, particularly when a couple aren't done that well (or alternatively, emulate them too well). They might spend time in the field zone thinking that there's a point to doing so besides grinding.

The game simply has a lot of weak points that can be mistakenly stumbled into and engaged rather than avoiding. One of the most common suggestions in this thread is to skip most of the sidequests, and when you start they're everywhere. It's not that other games don't have similar issues, but better reviewed games tend to do a better job of hiding them or being set up in a way that players won't notice them as much. KH1 did a much better job of the latter (in large part via a constant Disney nostalgia blast) than KH2, and it shows in some of the reviews and long-term feedback.

I dunno, I only read that this game was cool on here and then the NYT review and I figured out a lot of that stuff. I figured out that sidequests and planting was dumb the same way I know that a gun sucks in an FPS or an item sucks in any other game. I will admit that the sort of random nature of the sidequest rewards (may they may good money, weapons, or character devolopment) was a bit of a pain, but whenever a quest got too boring I just stopped doing it.

I think what makes those things okay though is that a lot of the sidequests in the context of the game are supposed to be boring. That is way they have Weiss on your shoulder saying, "Do you have to help EVERYONE?" Then I said to myself, "He's right, I should do more story stuff!" and everyone was happy.

Nier is definately a gamers' game though, especailly with all the references, but I am not sure why that means it should be poorly reveiwed and ignored. It is not the best game, but it is a game that I think deserves more praise than it was given, which is probably why people are going out of their way to say how amazing it is.

 

[Foxix Von]

Isn't it?

I was sort of under the impression that all it added was

Spoiler

additional dialogue during boss fights. I had no idea there was going to be this much buildup to each encounter though. Especially with commentary by Tyrann. I mean, they allude to the fact that there's a lot going on that Neir doesn't know about. I just didn't realize there was going to be this much content.

I just got to the point where I collected that memory alloy for the sword the junk heap brother gives you again. Weiss' commentary on that was great. :lol I'm really not looking forward to fighting P-33 again though.

This game makes me feel like a complete tyrannical monster.

 

[heringer]

So, I decided to buy this mostly because the story sounds intriguing and I'm craving for a game with a good story.

Should I completely ignore the side quests or will that bite me in the ass later in the game?

 

[Foxix Von]

So, I decided to buy this mostly because the story sounds intriguing and I'm craving for a game with a good story.

Should I completely ignore the side quests or will that byte me in the ass later in the game?

It wont really bite you in the ass, but there is a point in the game where if you didn't bother to complete them you can't go back.

Just accept everything you come across. The extra dialogue adds a lot. Important ones are the boar quest, anything with the lighthouse lady, and a particular late game quest about hunting a suspicious shade.

If you like the game be sure to play it again. You will feel terrible.

 

[Femmeworth]

So, I decided to buy this mostly because the story sounds intriguing and I'm craving for a game with a good story.

Should I completely ignore the side quests or will that byte me in the ass later in the game?

The sidequests are worth it if only for the dialogue/bizarre stories. The vast majority just give you money, with some giving weapons.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

So do we know exactly what the hell happened

Spoiler

to Emil? I mean its quite obvious he survived, or at least his head did. I hate to think that we'll never know exactly how or why he didn't get swallowed in the darkness.

Also, I wonder if we'll ever get a sequel or branch off, doesn't seem likely but even so.

 

[Foxix Von]

^ Whaa.. I find it crazy that I've beat a game and yet I still have to be wary of spoilers. :lol

 

[hamchan]

Yeah I don't think we'll be getting a sequel but who knows? This game seems low budget, maybe they made a nice profit from it.

 

[Yoshiya]

Yeah I don't think we'll be getting a sequel but who knows? This game seems low budget, maybe they made a nice profit from it.

I guess it comes down to what was mean by that 'multiple things in progress' related to Nier comment the SE producer made. We know one of those is a drama CD (supposedly with the involvement of Yokoo Taro) but it strikes me as odd that they would build up these other pieces of media (eg. arrange album) around the game so long afterwards if they had absolutely ruled out revisiting that world in game form.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

^ Whaa.. I find it crazy that I've beat a game and yet I still have to be wary of spoilers. :lol

But your avatar!!! :lol

 

[Femmeworth]

^ Whaa.. I find it crazy that I've beat a game and yet I still have to be wary of spoilers. :lol

Don't highlight anymore spoilers, until you see all of the endings. >_<

 

[Foxix Von]

Don't highlight anymore spoilers, until you see all of the endings. >_<

I keep telling myself that but I keep doing it anyway.

We need a Spoiler Addicts Anonymous thread or something, it also doesn't help that I use a stylish script that auto highlights spoilers by mousing over them.

I keep saying to myself "oh, surely I've already seen whatever this guy's talking abou-GOTDAMNIT!"

I've seriously got to start scrolling with more caution. :lol

 

[Coldsnap]

Ugh this game can be soul crushing.
edit: Ending A spoiler

Spoiler

I'm not sure why but emil's death has sort of stuck with me the past few days. It's such a trope when stories have someone sacrificing themselves in a moment gallantry. It really stuck with me how once emil was alone and descending the darkness made him realize he might have done it again if he could.

Also I'm working my way to ending B and I'm at the P-33 and Young Shade part... I sorta want to stop right here because I know what's about to happen.

 

[Femmeworth]

I just read through Kaine's story again, and it's still just as good. While I like the Kaine portrayed in the rest of the game, the Kaine I picture in my mind is so much more badass and interesting. She she also wears better clothes. >_>

 

[Hesemonni]

Ok GAF, I found this cheap for the 360 and bought it. Now after couple of hours I figured to ask for any last minute advices. Anything gamebreaking / experience ruining to keep my eye out for?

 

[Requeim]

Ok GAF, I found this cheap for the 360 and bought it. Now after couple of hours I figured to ask for any last minute advices. Anything gamebreaking / experience ruining to keep my eye out for?

Nope, one advice i would give is, if you don't like the sidequests, just skip them and and concentrate on the main story.

And if you end up liking the main story, be sure to play through the game twice to get ending b as well.

 

[Hesemonni]

Nope, one advice i would give is, if you don't like the sidequests, just skip them and and concentrate on the main story.

And if you end up liking the main story, be sure to play through the game twice to get ending b as well.

Will do. Thanks!

 

[Kiriku]

I just read through Kaine's story again, and it's still just as good. While I like the Kaine portrayed in the rest of the game, the Kaine I picture in my mind is so much more badass and interesting. She she also wears better clothes. >_>

You know, I never truly understood WHY Kainé is dressed like that. Of course there are probably lots of reasons for marketing purposes, appealing to certain demographics to sell more and all that, but seeing as so much in the game has some kind of reason behind it (and that the developers seem to go their own way much of the time), I was searching for an answer while playing the game, something that would motivate that kind of outfit. Because in my opinion it doesn't really match Kainé as a character at all (but perhaps that's the whole point?). In the game, Nier even makes a comment specifically about Kainé's outfit the first time they meet IIRC, so the developers are obviously very aware of what they're doing in that respect. I also skimmed through the Grimoire Noir with no luck. So what's the deal?

 

[ZephyrFate]

You know, I never truly understood WHY Kainé is dressed like that. Of course there are probably lots of reasons for marketing purposes, appealing to certain demographics to sell more and all that, but seeing as so much in the game has some kind of reason behind it (and that the developers seem to go their own way much of the time), I was searching for an answer while playing the game, something that would motivate that kind of outfit. Because in my opinion it doesn't really match Kainé as a character at all (but perhaps that's the whole point?). In the game, Nier even makes a comment specifically about Kainé's outfit the first time they meet IIRC, so the developers are obviously very aware of what they're doing in that respect. I also skimmed through the Grimoire Noir with no luck. So what's the deal?

It's pretty simple.

Spoiler

Kaine WANTS to be seen as a female, because she has most of the parts that go along with that. She strives to reaffirm her own femininity constantly, even if both her mouth and her actions betray her.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Honestly I'd rather people play the game however they want and not listen to the suggestions of others. This isn't like some RPG with some crazy learning curve where you make a couple mistakes and the final boss kills everything, the worst thing that can happen in Nier is that you'll get bored with whatever task you're doing. If it's that bad just play another game.

 

[Femmeworth]

I just realized that the Shade in the junkyard is

Spoiler

the gestalt(?) of the apothecary's daughter in Kaine's story. By extension, that's his wife too.

(second playthrough spoilers)

You know, I never truly understood WHY Kainé is dressed like that. Of course there are probably lots of reasons for marketing purposes, appealing to certain demographics to sell more and all that, but seeing as so much in the game has some kind of reason behind it (and that the developers seem to go their own way much of the time), I was searching for an answer while playing the game, something that would motivate that kind of outfit. Because in my opinion it doesn't really match Kainé as a character at all (but perhaps that's the whole point?). In the game, Nier even makes a comment specifically about Kainé's outfit the first time they meet IIRC, so the developers are obviously very aware of what they're doing in that respect. I also skimmed through the Grimoire Noir with no luck. So what's the deal?

Judging by the way that the script makes many, many jokes about Kaine's outfit, I'm led to believe that it's something that the producer/higher ups insisted upon. Maybe the team is just fucking with us. Her terrible outfit is sort of fitting, since each of the main trio doesn't look normal. Emil is self-explanatory, Nier is ugly with a weird oufit, and Kaine is pretty but has a confounding outfit. Kaine should have had a more androgynous appearance, like Young Nier, oddly enough. It would definitely add more importance to the lunar tears that

Spoiler

her grandmother and Nier give her.

It's pretty simple.

Spoiler

Kaine WANTS to be seen as a female, because she has most of the parts that go along with that. She strives to reaffirm her own femininity constantly, even if both her mouth and her actions betray her.

Spoiler

Her mouth and actions don't really betray her. She is just emulating her grandmother, whom she loved very much. Her oversexed appearance would make more sense if she wasn't already beautiful and feminine looking to begin with. She has a very feminine figure, not to mention. If that is what they were going for, they really dropped the ball. Though that is likely considering the disparity between the way she is portrayed in the backstory and the rest of the game.

I swear, one of these days I'm going to end up writing an entire paper about Kaine. :lol It could work if I tried to talk about transgenderism in video games. I am taking an English course this semester. >_>

 

[Foxix Von]

I just realized that the Shade in the junkyard is

Spoiler

the gestalt(?) of the apothecary's daughter in Kaine's story. By extension, that's his wife too.

(second playthrough spoilers)

How'd you come to that conclusion? *breaks no more spoilers resolution*

Maybe I'm missing something and I need to read through it again to refresh my memory. I just beat ending B. I had an epiphany last night that that's what was happening.

This game is really, really clever.

Also

Spoiler

YAY! Emil! That was hilarious. He's officially my hero now, he just takes everything in stride! "Oh well there goes my body! Let's go find a new one wooo!"

 

[Femmeworth]

How'd you come to that conclusion? *breaks no more spoilers resolution*

Maybe I'm missing something and I need to read through it again to refresh my memory. I just beat ending B. I had an epiphany last night that that's what was happening.

Spoiler

Kamil is the name of the apothecary's daughter.

 

[Foxix Von]

Spoiler

Kamil is the name of the apothecary's daughter.

Oh snap I can't wait til my third playthrough. I feel stupid for not noticing that.

On another note:

 

[Femmeworth]

Oh snap I can't wait til my third playthrough. I feel stupid for not noticing that.

On another note:

Don't feel bad, I didn't notice it until today.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Just picked this up today.

Man...is the game I bought REALLY the one you guys are describing? Maybe it'll seem moreso the more I play it? Put in about 3 hours so far.

 

[Gravijah]

Just picked this up today.

Man...is the game I bought REALLY the one you guys are describing? Maybe it'll seem moreso the more I play it? Put in about 3 hours so far.

Wait until after halfway through the game, if it get better for you then the game probably isn't for you.

 

[Yoshiya]

Spoiler

Speaking of which, he also heard that there was once a time when nights were pitch black. It was hard to believe, but if it was true, then Shades probably didn't exist back then. If the sun sank below the horizon and left the world in the dark, then the Shades could do as they wished. Humans would probably die out in the blink of an eye. The prospect of complete darkness arriving every day is a bit scary, but it must've been much easier to live in a world without Shades.

Spoiler

That conforms then that the entire game takes place in some sort of artificial cavern or the like constructed to house the Replicants. Nowhere does it seem the scope of Project Gestalt includes altering the Earth's rotation. No hint as to what happened to the rest of the world though...

Probably bigger than ending A spoilers, so be sure before you highlight.

 

[Foxix Von]

Spoiler

That conforms then that the entire game takes place in some sort of artificial cavern or the like constructed to house the Replicants. Nowhere does it seem the scope of Project Gestalt includes altering the Earth's rotation. No hint as to what happened to the rest of the world though...

Probably bigger than ending A spoilers, so be sure before you highlight.

I should take the time to read through the Grimoir Nier translation after I'm done with endings C/D. That explains

Spoiler

why there's that NPC that talks about how the sun never sets. I was wondering about that. I assume then that the apocalyptic locale that the tutorial takes place in is also taking place in the same facility. Also explains why there's all these military/government facilities spaced so close together, along with a good excuse to keep the scope of the game small.

Eh, while I'm posting this I'd also like to say that if a sequel ever happens I'd like it to have the city of art as a location.

 

[Wool]

Just picked this up today.

Man...is the game I bought REALLY the one you guys are describing? Maybe it'll seem moreso the more I play it? Put in about 3 hours so far.

Yeah I'm 4 hours in myself and I feel the same way. The combat so far seems like button mashing, the quests aren't very creative, and Yonah really makes me angry. I guess I'll keep playing though :lol

 

[ZephyrFate]

Yeah I'm 4 hours in myself and I feel the same way. The combat so far seems like button mashing, the quests aren't very creative, and Yonah really makes me angry. I guess I'll keep playing though :lol

You don't have to do the quests (though you should the easier ones for money), and the combat is not the main attraction to this game.

As stated earlier, nobody plays Nier for its gameplay, which is its weakest aspect (though puts a shit ton of different genres together admittedly).

 

[Foxix Von]

Not sure if anyone noticed this, but while reading some reviews I saw a lot of complaints about how slow Nier is to climb ladders.

It's never stated in the game to my knowledge but you can just hold down A/X to auto jump up them.

I can't believe how much I've been posting in this thread. :lol

 

[InfiniteNine]

Not sure if anyone noticed this, but while reading some reviews I saw a lot of complaints about how slow Nier is to climb ladders.

It's never stated in the game to my knowledge but you can just hold down A/X to auto jump up them.

I thought that was a common thing in games that didn't need explanation.

 

[Foxix Von]

I thought that was a common thing in games that didn't need explanation.

You'd also think following a quest marker to know where to fish would be too. :lol

 

[Femmeworth]

Spoiler

That conforms then that the entire game takes place in some sort of artificial cavern or the like constructed to house the Replicants. Nowhere does it seem the scope of Project Gestalt includes altering the Earth's rotation. No hint as to what happened to the rest of the world though...

Probably bigger than ending A spoilers, so be sure before you highlight.

Spoiler

So, the village is one layer, then the "real" world is the next layer, and then the next layer is the actual surface of the Earth?

There needs to be another game in the world of Nier. >_<

 

[Yoshiya]

Spoiler

So, the village is one layer, then the "real" world is the next layer, and then the next layer is the actual surface of the Earth?

There needs to be another game in the world of Nier. >_<

If what you mean by

Spoiler

real world

is the opening, I think that is meant to take place in what was the real Tokyo.

 

[∀ Narayan]

Spoiler

Kamil is the name of the apothecary's daughter.

Yeah, but isn't the shade's name

Spoiler

Kalil

?

 

[Femmeworth]

Yeah, but isn't the shade's name

Spoiler

Kalil

?

You are correct. I was one letter off, though. :lol

If what you mean by

Spoiler

real world

is the opening, I think that is meant to take place in what was the real Tokyo.

I'm reading through the translation of Grimoire Nier right now.

 

[quinntendopower]

I finished my first play through today, and read the big diary section in the intro for the second...

wow

I really love this game for what it is. it's janky as shit, but interesting and concise enough to never feel bored or tiresome

i also like how Estelle and Karol are in it

 

[Femmeworth]

From one of the interviews in Grimoire Nier

Yokoo: We planned to make a sibling story in the first place. Although back then “Replicant” was to be voiced in English, but there was some trouble with the voice actors.

Eishima: Now that’s news to me! If “Replicant” had English voices with subtitles, it might not have become such a topic of discussion.

Yokoo: Then producer Satou said “Let’s just do it with Japanese voices” at the last moment on a whim…maybe it was a wise decision.(laughs) So he adjusted the voice actors.

Damn you Satou!