The Order: 1886 is 30fps because 24fps doesn't "feel good", 60fps "changes aesthetic"

I definitely get someone saying "I am not used to seeing games run at 60 fps, this looks weird."

I definitely do not get someone saying "Compared to 60 fps, 30 fps looks much better and I prefer it." To each their own, I guess.

Either way, this bums me out. If the power was there, I have trouble believing they wouldn't make this game 60 fps if they could afford to do it and keep whatever effects they are utilizing.
 
30fps vs. 60fps isn't something you see, it's something you feel.

Seriously, the important stuff is how it affects the interaction of the controller and the game. These are games. Interactive media.

It's both

You can clearly see with the scrolling animation the ufo looks noticeably worse than 60fps. Once you factor in pixel persistence which makes the ufo clear at 60fps, granted you have the proper strobing screen, then it really shows how bad 30fps is.
 
Did he say 30fps because of this "Filmic look'??? oh no he didn't pull that card did he?

If this game filmic game has gameplay in it they have to go for the "gameplay look"!! the 60fps look!
 
What a silly reason, just as it as it is, you weight the graphical details, resolution and such more than frame rate.

30fps vs. 60fps isn't something you see, it's something you feel.

This is so wrong. Can see it very quickly, without playing the game or the recorded footage.
 
It's both

You can clearly see with the scrolling animation the ufo looks noticeably worse than 60fps. Once you factor in pixel persistence which makes the ufo clear at 60fps, granted you have the proper strobing screen, then it really shows how bad 30fps is.

Ok, in this case I definitely agree that 60 is better.

Saying 30 fps is better then 60 fps is like saying taco bell is better Mexican food then actual Mexican food.

I judge this on case by case basis. The UFO post is a lot better in 60fps, but the Snake vs Samus fight looks much better in 30 fps to me. If Order 1886 were to run at 60 fps, it would look like so spanish soap opera.
 
New consoles, same old nonsense.

So true. This and with the amount of "definitive" editions of games coming out or planned really takes the excitement of a new generation of gaming. Oh and cross gen games as well. The last gen was the longest one we've had yet publishers are so set on milking every penny out that generation that they're afraid of jumping ship.
 
What the hell?

Why is it in topics like this everyone loses their shit when a dev says that gameplay is not the number 1 priority but in other topics when someone mentions the old Lucas Film point and click adventure games everyone gushes about how great they were?

Did the old point and click adventure games really need 60fps and incredibly responsive gameplay and controls? No, of course not.

If the Order wants to be "filmic", focus on story and run at 30fps then that is fine.

If you dont want to play it because of the above then that is also fine.

Not every video game MUST be 60fps and have lightning fast gameplay to be a video game. Thats just you placing your preconceived notions as to what a video game should be on to every game and then bashing whatever game does not meet your standards.
 
Not 60? Fine. Then locked 30, plz. As real as it might look, its still a video game...a shooter at that.

And for the record, I LOVED The Hobbit in 48fps and cant wait to see Avatar 2 in 60fps!
 
60 fps is always better for games objectively. The excuse that 30 fps is more cinematic is some BS that devs make up when their games run at 30. It's fine that the game runs at 30, I'm ok with that but don't give me this BS that it's running at that because of the cinematic feel.

But in this case running the game at 30fps will give them access to better visual tricks and post processing which will absolutely make it LOOK more like a movie.

Like, are people misconstruing what the word "aesthetic" means in this quote? It's not just textures, IQ, and art design, but the totality of the image from blur, to lens flairs, to grain/noise, to lighting, etc. Making the game 60fps would ruin this aesthetic, no question. Not due to the game looking smoother, though that would definitely also change the feel of things, but mostly due to them having less access to techniques that give the image its feel as a whole. The "CG look" that people compliment would be lost. There's just not enough horsepower to do that on the console with 60fps.

And IDK why people have an issue with them chasing this look in the first place. There's a huge history of movie styles and imagery to draw on that all looks vastly superior to games being that this industry is still so young. Do people have issues with Okami looking to Asian brush paintings for its look, or to any game that borrows from major artistic movements in history? It's the same concept here just using a medium that's more familiar to our generation.
 
Dictator93 said:
You are right, a game at a higher framerate will always look better and always feel better to play.

Incredibly subjective. The example that keeps popping into my head is the first part of Tomb Raider with Lara in the water; she looked incredibly plasticky. Same thing with the Ground Zeroes demo. Yes it LOOKED good, but there was a visual quality that felt off.

My purpose is the analogue between film framerates and games is false. They have two different consumption and production styles. A camera has a lens with exposure and the audience is passive, a game has punctual time slices with an active person drving the game.

Your argument only holds water if the game NEEDS 60FPS to increase precision or gameplay. Nothing they have mentioned so far should lead anyone to this conclusion.
 
It's both
You can clearly see with the scrolling animation the ufo looks noticeably worse than 60fps. Once you factor in pixel persistence which makes the ufo clear at 60fps, granted you have the proper strobing screen, then it really shows how bad 30fps is.
Yes. But in your example there is no motion blur.
 
Ok, in this case I definitely agree that 60 is better.



I judge this on case by case basis. The UFO post is a lot better in 60fps, but the Snake vs Samus fight looks much better in 30 fps to me. If Order 1886 were to run at 60 fps, it would look like so spanish soap opera.

I prefer gameplay fluidity and 60fps gameplay is simply more fluid and responsive.
 
Why is it in topics like this everyone loses their shit when a dev says that gameplay is not the number 1 priority but in other topics when someone mentions the old Lucas Film point and click adventure games everyone gushes about how great they were?

Did the old point and click adventure games really need 60fps and incredibly responsive gameplay and controls? No, of course not.

If the Order wants to be "filmic", focus on story and run at 30fps then that is fine.

If you dont want to play it because of the above then that is also fine.

Not every video game MUST be 60fps and have lightning fast gameplay to be a video game. Thats just you placing your preconceived notions as to what a video game should be on to every game and then bashing whatever game does not meet your standards.

This is mostly hyperbole.

There are clearly posters who are defending the devs and some who just don't care or see why it's a big stink.

Also I say it all the time for games that don't need the response not having 60 FPS isn't a big deal to me.

We don't care about dev choice we just don't care for the bs reasons they use which this one happens to be. If they really wanted a filmic look they would go for 24fps locked, but I bet that can't even do that. They clearly compromised and then want us to accept the reasons why despite how contradictory me and others are point out that statement is.
 
I'd love it if devs would, for once, stop pretending that going to 30fps instead of 60 is some sort of "artistic choice".

It's bullshit. They know it, we know it, why pretend otherwise?

Yup. It's to push more effects and enhance image (screenshot) quality.
Don't feed us the BS about it feeling more filmic.
 
throne-of-lies.gif
 
Yes. But in your example there is no motion blur.

Then do other tests which aim at that. I showed that one cause you see the problem in regards to animation 30fps shows.

Here's one with motion blur and other settings


Blur or not 30fps compared in a 1 to 1 instance rarely looks as good.

mcz117chief your points however is something to consider. The fps isn't the issue but rather the animation. If devs don't account for 60fps and the like speeding up games like we see will always have that unnatural too fast look.
 
I definitely get someone saying "I am not used to seeing games run at 60 fps, this looks weird."

I definitely do not get someone saying "Compared to 60 fps, 30 fps looks much better and I prefer it." To each their own, I guess.

Either way, this bums me out. If the power was there, I have trouble believing they wouldn't make this game 60 fps if they could afford to do it and keep whatever effects they are utilizing.

I figure, if the power was there, they'd just stay with 30fps and crank up the effects.
 
You make video games for televisions, not movies for theater screens, assholes.

fucking poseur industry.

What do you expect them to say? Sorry guys we know 60FPS is really important to alot of you but we can't hit it on this hardware while providing the visual fidelity the marketing guys want. So you're getting 30FPS. -Peace.

I mean obviously they're saying this sort of stuff because they think in the longrun it's going to result in more sales than saying what I wrote above, but it makes you wonder. I find "marketing speak" repulsive and it has a habit of turning me off to products associated with it pretty fast, but I wonder if I'm an abnormality in that regard.
 
This is mostly hyperbole.



We don't care about dev choice we just don't care for the bs reasons they use which this one happens to be. If they really wanted a filmic look they would go for 24fps locked, but I bet that can't even do that.

Utterly ridiculous. You have no way of knowing the intentions of the developer and nothing they have said regarding The Order or any other game they have worked on suggests they are trying to bullshit the consumer.

It is insipid to think they are trying to sell snake oil because they realized that 30FPS allows them to maintain technical proficiency AND achieve an artistic vision that forcing the game into 60FPS wouldn't do.
 
Utterly ridiculous. You have no way of knowing the intentions of the developer and nothing they have said regarding The Order or any other game they have worked on suggests they are trying to bullshit the consumer.

It is insipid to think they are trying to sell snake oil because they realized that 30FPS allows them to maintain technical proficiency AND achieve an artistic vision that forcing the game into 60FPS wouldn't do.

As if I could, for a variety of reasons including their own sense of being honest with us about this issue. Yet I don't have to nor wish to give them any benefit of the doubt considering the tripe they have in their own comment.

You can also cut the hype and BS crap yourself. Snake oil is fake. 30fps is real and has clear pros and cons.
 
Yup. It's to push more effects and enhance image (screenshot) quality.
Don't feed us the BS about it feeling more filmic.

Doesn't they say they are trying to tell a story and have black borders just like film in this game? They are saying same thing from the start and their game needs that kind of FPS not 60FPS. If you don't like this game 30FPS just ignore and go play with your PC stuff where you can get what you want as we don't want to hear about your complaints.
 
Ok, in this case I definitely agree that 60 is better.



I judge this on case by case basis. The UFO post is a lot better in 60fps, but the Snake vs Samus fight looks much better in 30 fps to me. If Order 1886 were to run at 60 fps, it would look like so spanish soap opera.

You do realize that we are talking about a action-game and not a soap opera?
 
God, I would have loved if they' done for 24fos for gameplay, just to see the reactions. Plus it'd require a lot less performance to hit that (about 62 million pixels per second for 1920x1080/30fps, about 37 million for 1920x800/24fps)

Personally I'm getting kind of tired of this "cinematic experience" type stuff. I think the future is going to be the "visual novel experience." 1FPS is where it's at. Just imagine the imagine quality!! The screenshots! And a major downside of this 20+ FPS trend that just hasn't been given enough attention is that at 20+ FPS you just don't have enough time to actually appreciate and soak in each frame.
 
So true. This and with the amount of "definitive" editions of games coming out or planned really takes the excitement of a new generation of gaming. Oh and cross gen games as well. The last gen was the longest one we've had yet publishers are so set on milking every penny out that generation that they're afraid of jumping ship.

It's almost as if the costs to make games has skyrocketed...

My advice? Turn to indies if you want to see something new because it's almost beyond stupid to risk the budget for a AAA title on trying to innovate. It's also, in most cases, unnecessary. Steady improvement is preferable. Steady improvement still sells games. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't buy it. So, if you want the industry to change, get people to change what they like because game creators sure as hell aren't going to try something that won't sell.
 
I prefer gameplay fluidity and 60fps gameplay is simply more fluid and responsive.

This game is not about only shooting and its about a story, characters, atmosphere and action. They need filmic way of presentation so they chose 30 FPS (30 instead of 24 is because we control the characters in this so we need this 30 for good balance).
 
Doesn't they say they are trying to tell a story and have black borders just like film in this game? They are saying same thing from the start and their game needs that kind of FPS not 60FPS. If you don't like this game 30FPS just ignore and go play with your PC stuff where you can get what you want as we don't want to hear about your complaints.

People complained as vociferously when they announced that the game would have black bars. "Black bars confirmed; wouldn't rent." From day one they have said they are going for a cinematic look, but folks in this thread want to fall over themselves trying to convince the world that this announcement is the result of hours of PR Brainstorming.
 
Doesn't they say they are trying to tell a story and have black borders just like film in this game? They are saying same thing from the start and their game needs that kind of FPS not 60FPS. If you don't like this game 30FPS just ignore and go play with your PC stuff where you can get what you want as we don't want to hear about your complaints.

Borders are not even mentioned in the link.

The filmic look he describes is impossible for one of the big reasons I mentioned. If devs want to feed me the "Filmic look" or "Cinematic feel" bs they should start by making the games render more like movies both in how cameras use iso and capture light or motion blur for that matter. Reducing the fps just cause isn't the only reason why films have their look.

People complained as vociferously when they announced that the game would have black bars. "Black bars confirmed; wouldn't rent." From day one they have said they are going for a cinematic look, but folks in this thread want to fall over themselves trying to convince the world that this announcement is the result of hours of PR Brainstorming.

They are even competent enough to do that. They made it based off ignorance pure and simple at a certain level.
 
People complained as vociferously when they announced that the game would have black bars. "Black bars confirmed; wouldn't rent." From day one they have said they are going for a cinematic look, but folks in this thread want to fall over themselves trying to convince the world that this announcement is the result of hours of PR Brainstorming.

I don't understand it. These people don't have to like this game. It's okay not to. Is there something about it that appeals to them so much that they continue to complain about it? I've never seen this much crap thrown at a single game.

Once again, folks, it is okay not to like or play this game.

Borders are not even mentioned in the link.

The filmic look he describes is impossible for one of the big reasons I mentioned. If devs want to feed me the "Filmic look" or "Cinematic feel" bs they should start by making the games render more like movies both in how cameras use iso and capture light or motion blur for that matter. Reducing the fps just cause isn't the only reason why films have their look.

Doesn't this game fully simulate a virtual lens over the camera for precisely that purpose?
 
I'm really baffled by this decision to be honest. Since they are putting story on top of the videogame pyramid anyway, why not go for the full cinematic experience and just lock that shit down on rock stable 24FPS. I mean, 30FPS is nice and all and it's very responsive and plays great, but it also changes the asthetics a lot. Since we are supposed to enjoy The Order mainly as a movie and less as a game, I'm really upset that they are not standing strong to their design decision and opt out for all the cry babies who just want smoother framerates. I mean, it's not like you see or feel the difference anway when you are watching cutscenes.

But then again, we all now that cinematic experience eats up your performance like crazy. So I guess their code just isn't good enough to present a consistent 24FPS like in a movie and they just went the easy route. In any case, it doesn't bode well for this industry, if you ask me. And I do understand when a lot of cinematic-GAFFERS like me are unhappy about this decision.

Maybe The Last of Us 2 will deliver. I mean TLOU almost nailed it, just 1-2 frames too many...if anyone can do it, it's these guys, I guess.
 
Doesn't they say they are trying to tell a story and have black borders just like film in this game? They are saying same thing from the start and their game needs that kind of FPS not 60FPS. If you don't like this game 30FPS just ignore and go play with your PC stuff where you can get what you want as we don't want to hear about your complaints.

Games are a different medium than movies, and I'd prefer devs not try to imitate them visually, especially when it affects interactivity. If it's something interactive, I want a smoother game for both visual and gameplay reasons. Their design choices on affect whether I rent, buy, or ignore the game.
 
That statement is complete and utter bullshit. The only reason why they're running 30 is because the h/w isn't powerful enough to provide the same graphical fidelity at 60 fps.

They'll never admit that to the public. The more PR friendly quote is "We prefer the overall visuals of the game when targeting 30 FPS as opposed to 60 FPS".

I'm really hoping that there is no developer dumb enough to choose 30 FPS for artistic purposes while having identical builds locked at 30 and 60 FPS.
 
It's almost as if the costs to make games has skyrocketed...

My advice? Turn to indies if you want to see something new because it's almost beyond stupid to risk the budget for a AAA title on trying to innovate. It's also, in most cases, unnecessary. Steady improvement is preferable. Steady improvement still sells games. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't buy it. So, if you want the industry to change, get people to change what they like because game creators sure as hell aren't going to try something that won't sell.

I'm not necessarily looking for innovative im just observing that publishers don't want to let last gen die and its spilling over into the new gen and how the games are being developed. Its hard to be excited by a new generation of gaming when most of the games coming out/stated to come out can be found on last gen as well.
 
Great, now the developers are saying 30fps is "cinematic"?

If it's really about how good it feels to play, more fps will always be better.
 
Doesn't this game fully simulate a virtual lens over the camera for precisely that purpose?

Yes it simulates various aspects of the camera, does it do all of them or all of them well is the debate I'm having in certain respects.

Great, now the developers are saying 30fps is "cinematic"?

If it's really about how good it feels to play, more fps will always be better.

This is basically the first instance I can recall of a developer going a certain distance to actually replicate it more authentically. FPS isn't the only reason cameras make what they do.
 
Games are a different medium than movies, and I'd prefer devs not try to imitate them visually, especially when it affects interactivity. If it's something interactive, I want a smoother game for both visual and gameplay reasons. Their design choices on affect whether I rent, buy, or ignore the game.

You're failing at the ignore part, I think. ;)

I feel games can learn a lot from movies. Some of my favourite titles of the last gen were extremely heavy on cut scenes or cinematic presentation. It's obvious that this type of game isn't for you. It does, however, appeal to others.
 
I don't get how any of this comes across as shocking or hard to understand for anybody. These guys were talking about emulating a cinematic look from the beginning. It is not a hardware limitation. If this where to be a PC game they would have probably locked the fps at 30 to not distance themselves to much from the film aesthetic. People can disagree on what their priorities should be (1080p, 60fps bla bla) but those were the design choices they made clear when they announced the game.

A 60fps cinematic experience is a bit of an oxymoron. Your 60fps game can be atmospheric, moody, gritty, or whatever adjective you want but not cinematic. That's because framerate, specifically that of 24fps, is one of the most important characteristics of achieving this and 60fps is just too much of a departure from that.

Of course these are games, so responsiveness and controller input definitely play a very important role which is improved by higher fps. But for RAD getting the closest they can to cinema with this game is more important, so we have and anamorphic picture at 30fps( the closest playable fps to 24) and many post processing effects that help transform the digital image into something that seems captured by a lens. A lot of the stuff they use to achieve this look actually takes more of a toll on the hardware than they're probably saving - 1920x800 (1:1) as opposed to an upscaled 900p image, 4x MSAA to deliver the cleanest image possible, and some physics based lens capture stuff they got going on.

I am ok with these choices as I was when they first revealed their game. I don't know why this has to cause controversy.
 
This game is not about only shooting and its about a story, characters, atmosphere and action. They need filmic way of presentation so they chose 30 FPS (30 instead of 24 is because we control the characters in this so we need this 30 for good balance).

Make the game-parts 60 fps, the movie part 24 fps with motion blur. Problem solved.
 
You're failing at the ignore part, I think.

I feel games can learn a lot about movie. Some of my favourite titles of the last green were extremely heavy on cut scenes or cinematic presentation. It's obvious that this type of game isn't for you. It does, however, appeal to others.

To clarify, by ignore I meant not play at all, but I'll probably rent it for the heck of it. It's fine if they want to mimic a movie. I just don't buy their argument here, really. Those things are fine, but I don't think a smoother frame rate takes away from the impact of cutscenes or story telling impact of a game. Quite the opposite.
 
New consoles, same old nonsense.
Yeah I know, doesn't matter which console generation there's always some really annoying people projecting their preference for 60fps onto others as if it's the only choice. If only these people would accept that not everyone needs 60fps, then we'd all get along so much better.
 
Considering dat graphics and 1080p with black bars and no upscaling, stready 30fps is ok for me.

But guys don't use these weak excuses, just say that as of now with these badass graphics and resolution you can't go 60fps because the PS4 wouldn't handle it and you prefer cool graphics than FPS.
 
I don't get how any of this comes across as shocking or hard to understand for anybody. These guys were talking about emulating a cinematic look from the beginning. It is not a hardware limitation. If this where to be a PC game they would have probably locked the fps at 30 to not distance themselves to much from the film aesthetic. People can disagree on what they're priorities should be (1080p, 60fps bla bla) but those where the design choices they made clear when they announced the game.

A 60fps cinematic experience is a bit of an oxymoron. Your 60fps game can be atmospheric, moody, gritty, or whatever adjective you want but not cinematic. That's because framerate, specifically that of 24fps, is one of the most important characteristics of achieving this and 60fps is just too much of a departure from that.

Of course these are games, so responsiveness and controller input definitely play a very important role which is improved by higher fps. But for RAD getting the closest they can to cinema with this game is more important, so we have and anamorphic picture at 30fps( the closest playable fps to 24) and many post processing effects that help transform the digital image into something that seems captured by a lens. A lot of the stuff they use to achieve this look actually takes more of a toll on the hardware than they're probably saving - 1920x800 (1:1) as opposed to an upscaled 900p image, 4x MSAA to deliver the cleanest image possible, and some physics based lens capture stuff they got going on.

I am ok with these choices as I was when they first revealed their game. I don't know why this has to cause controversy.

FPS takes the highest toll on hardware followed by resolution. Only ways effect do is when you increase depth they are rendered otherwise from what we have benchmarked the last few generation fps is king in terms of much drain on hardware.

Even then I already pointed the virtual lens emulation. The FOV problem alone is one reason why these devs may not be able to hit 60fps especially on a console. You can fake speeds but does ubisoft have the power or want to do all that 60fps when it just easier to get what they want and not deal with getting to that objective at all.

Resolution has nothing to do with the debate it's about fps vs certain desires they have which are nice but quite frankly they may not have the power to do accurately.

Yeah I know, doesn't matter which console generation there's always some really annoying people projecting their preference for 60fps onto others as if it's the only choice. If only these people would accept that not everyone needs 60fps, then we'd all get along so much better.

Then don't enter a single topic on this board dealing with fps when it's clearly the fps that is being discussed from the outset. You were not forced in to this dicussion so you're a bit of a hypocrite saying that in a discussion solely aimed at the topic.
 
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