figadapaura
Member
Someone actual did say they had historical reasons for female assassins not being included. Pretty sure they've been banned now. (although not for stating that)
Developers call out Ubisoft on their stance regarding playable female characters
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
- Start date
Someone actual did say they had historical reasons for female assassins not being included. Pretty sure they've been banned now. (although not for stating that)
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
1.No it wouldn't because you never see yourself as anyone other than Arno. His outfits are not made for a female. And neither are his animations.
2.Watch Dogs is a perfect example of why it doesn't work. Aiden's animations look strange and awkward on a female. Btw, this isn't watch dogs, those models aren't as complex.
3.Other players see the outfit that YOU wear in your game. The only thing that changes in the face. So yes yes yes yes yes they would have to redo the outfits.
Zoe
Member
Nobody is saying that. Dax said she wants to be able to have her character portrayed on her screen as male one second and female the next.
Franchises die eventually, some of those failures can be attributed to mishandling of it but never in the industry it has happened because the creators listened to their fans, if more female representation in the series means that you could potentially get a couple more of AC games before it gets put to sleep would it be a bad thing?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Well that person was false and was spreading misinformation about the game.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Then let's take a look.
No, I'm not suggesting they redo and change what's already done in the game.
I'm saying that Ubisoft could have written and designed this new game to accommodate female playable characters for their multiplayer. They didn't and their reasoning that
Even though their choice to not have female character options make sense in accordance to their "everyone's the main character" multiplayer, that doesn't change that they could've done things differently without undermining their vision of multiplayer.
It would require more work if added into the game at this point after work's been done on the current build, yet there's no telling whether it would've required more work had the inclusion of female playable characters been one of their priorities from the start.
Them stating they'd need an entirely separate set of animations for player movement doesn't hold water after AC: Liberation featured a female character that shared animations with the male lead from AC3. That they'd use that as an excuse is suspect.
It would make more sense if they'd brought up their "everyone is the main character, but appears differently to others" multiplayer model as an excuse, it wouldn't change that, ultimately, the only reason they didn't have women assassins available for multiplayer is because of their decisions. That they can't add them in without considerably changing the game is a matter of them painting themselves into a corner in regards to this matter, rather than something that's completely out of their hands.
Crossing Eden said:
Nope, not suggesting they change the game now. Again, I'm suggesting the story for this game could've fit with the lore of past games while still allowing female characters in the multiplayer mode without altering the overall multiplayer design. It wouldn't require the exact same amount of work, obviously, but considering Ubisoft's team sizes, it's something they could manage.
Crossing Eden said:
Again, not suggesting they change the work they've already done before release.
The series not being expected to have female playable character options in its multiplayer (which offers customization for the player character) doesn't mean that they in any way couldn't have female playable characters had they decided to have them in before development started. Even if every game in the series had a male lead, it wouldn't stop Ubisoft from having a female lead for this one. Saying their hands were tied in this matter going into this latest game doesn't make sense.
All that is to say that 1) Ubisoft saying they can't add them in now doesn't free them from criticism about what they could've done differently and 2) there's nothing stopping Ubisoft from having female playable character options in multiplayer in all their games from now on. There are people who say they want them and Ubisoft, as a company selling a product, will be concerned with what their player base wants, whether you think it's worth the trouble aside.
When I first heard about this, I thought the exact same thing.
They said that the reactions of NPC's would all have to be different because if there was a female player controlled character, as if the non-gendered neutral reactions to the male heavily armed assassin about to murder someone could not be applied to a woman as well. And that's just silly, part of the point of having a female assassin is showing that in spite of misogyny she can still stab fools like the best of them.
The Librarian
Banned
1. Yes, but other people see you as a different character, and they could easily use a female assassin's model for this projection. All that would need to be done was rigging up some extended animations for this character, a much easier task.
2. The complexity of the models is no issue if there will be at some point in the game a female assassin already modeled. Some new animations to extend her abilities to Arno's moveset would have to be done, but that is much less work than creating a whole new model and those animations could be used in the full game itself to polish the female assassins and give them better animation and more moves as NPC characters.
3. Or they could use the outfits (and models) of female assassin's already in the game. All that would need to be changed is some animation work from there.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I don't care what gender the main character is as long as the game is good and I like how these devs forget about AC Liberation which had a black female lead. It's up to Ubisoft as to how they want to make their games. If they want male, female, gay, black, white, asian main characters then that's their choice.
This is being blown way out of proportion considering Ubisofts generally diverse characters.
This is being blown way out of proportion considering Ubisofts generally diverse characters.
The issue isn't with the main character himself: I have no qualms with Arno's being a man, the story is written for him just as some stories are written for female leads. The point is more that there is no option in the avatar projection for others to see in co-op there is no option to project yourself as a female assassin.
People really see your specific outfit in co-op mission? I missed this information.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
They obviously had a focus for this game. And that focus was obviously to deliver a higher quality than what we've had in the past. AC:Liberations animations are bad. Period. The look unnatural, stiff and unlike the fluidity seen in AC3. That's due to reskinning. Reskinning is bad. We have NO idea how the development of the game went. We have at best a small idea of what their pipeline was like. We haven't seen deadlines, schedules, or anything of that nature. What we do have, is a clear vision of what they want to accomplish. And quite frankly, female character animation was not a priority because it conflicts with other more important aspects of development. That's not an issue. At all. A clear focus and a pipeline that isn't hindered by something arbitrary and unnecessary results in a better product. Period. It always has, not just with games but any project.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
HHow many of these comments are we going to have stating this very same thing.
Once again, this isn't being blown out of portion because they didn't want to make a female character. It is being rightfully discussed because the excuse they gave to the reason why they didn't make a female character. They never said they didn't want to, they claimed they didn't have the money or resources to, which is complete utter bullshit.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I can see your point. When I play games that let your create characters I create females characters a lot and it's good to have the option. Ubisoft's reasoning does seem silly when they jave a huge amount of staff that can work on these games.
The Librarian
Banned
You can't do that while adding female playable characters?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes, and that's why they would have to re-rig everything. They see your weapons and outfit. That's part of where the problem is. So all the outfits that we saw in the e3 demo, belonged to Arno. And according to Ubisoft there are many more.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I never said it shouldn't be discussed. I simply gave my opinion in that I think that this is being made into something bigger than it is. Ubisofts reasons are stupid though
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not when it conflicts with other more important things.
Glass Rebel
Member
So you agree that Ubisoft thinks adding female characters isn't that important?
Yes, you've hit on the issue exactly.
The point is that Ubisoft said "female character animation was not a priority because it conflicts with other more important aspects of development", which is a degrading thing to say. To say that the representation of your gender, something that from my suggestions would be much less work than they have led on to believe it is, is less important than anything else represented in the game and not deserving of resources is demeaning.
I feel as though giving that as an excuse rather than saying "these three other dudes are key to the plot" is what is invited all of the criticism. If those three male avatar projections were indeed an important, fleshed out part of the story, it would be fine (but not ideal) that you were only playing as the main playable characters in co-op.
Treating inclusion as unimportant is actually the problem people have with this. Ubisoft made a conscious decision not to have a female playable character in the game because they thought it was less important than other things. People are telling them it's more important than they thought it was.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
1.People see only a different face. They see the same outfits, weapons, and equipment that Arno sees. None of them are designed for a female to wear, Arno doesn't have a feminine build. At all.
2.It is an issue if they want to deliver on the high quality. You see yourself as Arno, making animations for a female wouldn't matter because the end result is either
-Someone sees jerky unpolished animations on a female character
-Someone suddenly sees that Arno is acting more feminine.
3.OR, they could focus and work with Arno in mind instead of trying to appeal to a vocal minority.
Let me tell you what is the real problem because you have been passively and systematically misdirecting the point of interest to fill in your stupid argument which consists of,
- ACU was made using stone, wood and fire - "From scratch"
- X number of employees are not enough to do the task - Pitythedevsargument.
- X number of employees does not mean it is "easy" to do the task - "You can't just create a female character in a day. It ain't magic".
The main problem is that they made bullshit excuses to exclude a female lead character. That is the main problem.
- The main problem is not forcing them to create a female lead character.
- The main problem is not forcing them to create a female lead character for the sake of it.
- The main problem is not forcing them to create a female lead character and be part of the story.
- The main problem is not forcing them to do anything.
Why the excuses are bullshit,
Ubisoft's statements
Here is another approach,
Next day.
I recommended that they make a movie with the title "The last days of 8000 animations: How a woman came too close to achieving the impossible". For now let us enjoy Ubisoft getting debunked,
Jonathan Cooper
So in summary,
Now do me a favor and entertain me with how "technical limitations" and how I am "forcing Devs creativity" and frame me as ignorant and Ubisoft Hater.
Fact is they have no excuse because how they presented their argument(s) are inconsistent, irrational and blown out of proportion.
If this was in a separate multiplayer mode or a seperate co-op campaign I would be completely on board. The fact that this is for a 'seamless' drop in co-op to a single player campaign in which the main character for the player doesn't change makes the situation far more different. Your own character never even changes and will act in story beats and cutscenes just like the male Arno does.
Yep, this notion that Ubisoft's hands are somehow tied, that what they made is all they can ever make and they can't actually make changes like this is ridiculous. They're the ones creating the game from scratch. If they determined it was worth it to model and animate playable female characters, then change the skinning so the outfits match, they could do that. It *is* a relatively small amount of work and multiple industry professionals have confirmed it.
It's just not worth it to them. Which should tell us all something.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
I'm not saying you did but the whole, "It's being blown out of proportion." deal sounds just the same as, "We should deal with it an let it be."
I've said I'm okay with developers having a vision and sticking with it. It shows they are being honest and aren't making excuses for their choices. But this blow back is very well deserved. Imo, it's a testament to the industry to be at least honest about your decisions and stop trying to justify them in said means. It's not necessarily just about misrepresentation or incompetence.
Well these guys all seem to be wearing different outfits, not sure why they couldn't use a female assassin NPC wearing her female assassin clothes that she wears as she goes about and does things as an NPC. Just slot her in as a model and make some new animations to use for her. And if the animations for the female assassin really are so janky, then they really should work on polishing them up anyways.
And no, 50% of the people alive (as in, people who are female) is not a vocal minority, and saying that we shouldn't try to appeal to a"minority" for the sake of them being in the minority is not sound reasoning.
Dead Early
Banned
What I want to know, is why Ubisoft's developers are at all obliged to justify themselves creatively.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Just say that the main character is male and that's the creative decision they made.
Don't try to make up technical reasons why they couldn't do it that make no sense.
Excellent summary.
dancingphlower
Member
Yeah I thought that second bit was kind of ridiculous. As if there's a specific look that an Asian person is supposed to have.
Sounds super easy when you put it that way! I'd like posit that the amount of work it would be is only known by Ubisoft developers.
You mean when they said they wanted to include the option to play as a female but couldn't because of a lack of resources?
What spy do we have to let us know how many resources they've been given by their department heads? What of their code base and animation resources do we have access to to make a judgement on how much work it would or would not be to add a different build for a drop in character for a mode in which the main player never changes anyway? Seriously from what they've said they've done the bare minimum to get the drop in co-op characters to work. Same exact build as the main character just generic faces and whatever tailor options they've chosen which has been in AC since AC2.
keltickennedy
Member
Technically yes, but not by appearance. I was watching the Uplay lounge stream where they were talking about the customization. It's slightly close to Watchdogs where everyone plays the main character. Where it is different is that the customization... the robes, boots, hoods, etc that the player has chosen will also carry over and been seen by all players in a session. The only thing that will change to other players point of view are the faces, in which they will switch to a default look. (probably one of the faces on the promotional pieces that Ubi put out).
While it would be awesome to switch your gender, they would probably have to spend time reworking the story, animations, hiring another voice actor to read the lines etc. I can't see Ubisoft getting that done without delaying the game. Who knows, if the outcry is big enough maybe they will do something.
Alex Hutchinson? EDIT: sorry, was confused by the OP. It's Alex Amancio.
All of these decisions were made AFTER they decided there would be no playable female assassin, given that they're predicated on Arno. None of that excuses their initial decision to create a story in which there would be no female playable character. That's what so many seem to be missing.
Technical arguments are a red herring. If they had decided to have a playable female assassin, and thought it was important, the game design would be based around the potential for either gender to be the assassin.
It's the initial choice -- the one that says at best a female playable assassin is an afterthought -- that has people upset. Not that they can't go through and wedge one I'm for technical reasons. If they'd cared to do it, there was plenty of time and talent available to make it happen during the design phase.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I thought Ubisoft had just made design decisions but the real problem is the responsrme they gave which is a crazy stupid thing to say. They can't be bothered to put in the work as that's more time and money spent. I can respect design decisions and I believe that any creator has the right to create what they want (within reason) but if you deem another race or gender as less important than other things then people are going to get mad.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
They spent 4 different games representing the gender. Not only that but literally every AC game has had a female character that the protagonist depends on for reasons other than romance. Adding a female playable character in this instance, is not as important because of the workload involved. We've already seen what happens when they half ass this. So they decided to cut it instead of half-assing it. Do you want a half-assed version of this? Because I sure don't on a next gen only game.
No one is saying that it's not deserving of resources. They're saying that they literally don't have the resources, as in time and money. To implement it in a meaningful way that doesn't feel worse than if they don't.
Ubisoft made a conscious decisions to design tons of outfits, weapons, and options for Arno. Imo, when you have a deadline, and you have to meet such a high quality bar, it's better to cut some things so that you have a better product. If this game was coming out in 2015/2016 then they would have the time to do it and do it RIGHT. Which is more important. Doing it right. MA3 is a perfect example of what happens when they do it just because instead of focusing and doing it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye0Rl16elKo
Spring-Loaded
Member
Well, since we don't know how development went, we can't say whether it'd be too much work to have female playable characters.
We can say that Ubisoft could've designed the game with women characters from the get-go though. There are also ways to implement this type of multiplayer while having female playable characters, though the way to do this while keeping it as close as possible to the current version would've been to have a Mass Effect-style "male/female Sheppard" customization option for the main story and that would certainly cost more than just having a male option. Having options to simply enter into someone else's game as a fully customizable character would be feasible and, going by what they've said their focus for the multiplayer is, it wouldn't undermine their vision.
We can't say the better animations in Unity would look bad reskinned to a woman character either. We've got animators — who I'm assuming know enough about human movement to speak on the matter — who say women don't need fundamentally different animations for movement. I'm not seeing any solid reasons why Ubisoft couldn't have accommodated female playable characters here.
Since you said we don't know anything about the development of this game, I'll refrain from discussing how difficult/easy it'd be to add women in.
Even still, who (outside of Ubisoft) can say the work needed to add in women characters isn't worth the trouble? Their vision as stated isn't so restrictive as to make including women impossible. Even if that were the case, are they completely unwilling to alter it in any way? If they at all purport to care about what their player base wants in the game, they'll be willing to make concessions (of which they don't have many to make to include this).
It's arbitrary for you. It's unnecessary for you.
I could say this entire game is unnecessary because I don't play the AC series. I could say multiplayer is unnecessary because the AC games sold a bunch without it and/or I don't care about multiplayer.
However, the fact there are people who want female playable characters means it wouldn't be arbitrary or unnecessary because there are people who are interested in playing/buying the games that want that feature. If we're making this matter an issue of "what's worth the trouble," then what the player base wants matters.If Ubisoft decides it isn't worth it, they lose out on some of those potential customers. It's really not our say as to whether it's necessary, especially considering that that's relative.
Indeed, that would be much less work. If Ubisoft is having trouble managing their resources as they say, this is a much easier option than their excuse of having to redo everything from scratch. I can't say exactly how much work it would be, but I am certain that doing less work would be less than doing more work, and might be able to be handled by Ubisoft's small team of developers.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I apologise if it came off that way. It wasn't intended
You want AC V to have been a game with a female playable character in the single player campaign? You are extending your requirement to not just the coop drop in multiplay but also to the entire single player campaign?
You want the entire game to be played by an either a female or male PC?
I am glad this is being talked about, and I am absolutely for more female representation in games, but can someone clarify why Ubisoft, and in particular AC4, is being so suddenly and so heavily criticized about this?
Is it just because of their bad answer to the question, "why no women?"
Is it just because of their bad answer to the question, "why no women?"
I actually haven't expressed a requirement, so I'm not expanding it. I'm saying that Ubisoft could have made a playable female character if they had desired to do so, because they created the game from the ground up.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
People are forgetting the most important part of Jonathan Cooper's interview
"It's not the best quality," Cooper concluded. "It's definitely a compromise in quality.
^ This is the main issue. Ubisoft did not want to compromise in quality. You people are literally asking for a compromise in quality. And that's why I find this ridiculous. Besides the other technical limitations like the fact that all the outfits would have to be redesigned and re-rigged. And we'd have to create the technology where somehow, the animations that a player is seeing are separate from what another player is seeing in realtime.