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[Oersted]

What I want to know, is why Ubisoft's developers are at all obliged to justify themselves creatively.

Do you really think american speaking, white males are a creative decision?

 

[The Librarian]

That's not an issue. At all. A clear focus and a pipeline that isn't hindered by something arbitrary and unnecessary results in a better product. Period. It always has, not just with games but any project.

It's not arbitrary and unnecessary when you're a girl.

 

[Azih]

I actually haven't expressed a requirement, so I'm not expanding it. I'm saying that Ubisoft could have made a playable female character if they had desired to do so, because they created the game from the ground up.

And if they wrote an AC V story featuring Arno as the only playable character and is a male, then what the heck is wrong with that. Should every game be created to accommodate both male and female leads? We don't say that for books or movies or hell any other piece of media.

Edit: Why doesn't Mad Men have a counterpart show featuring Donna Draper as lead?

 

[Sai-kun]

Really glad about the mod note in the OP. Thanks, mods.

 

[firehawk12]

And if they wrote an AC V story featuring Arno as the only playable character and is a male, then what the heck is wrong with that. Should every game be created to accommodate both male and female leads? We don't say that for books or movies or hell any other piece of media.

Joss Whedon doesn't say "I only hire men because women are too hard to work with" though, which is basically the equivalent of what is being said here.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

You want AC V to have been a game with a female playable character in the single player campaign? You are extending your requirement to not just the coop drop in multiplay but also to the entire single player campaign?

There are people who play this series that would like that and it's not something unprecedented. Would it be easy or would it fit with their time constraints/budgets? Don't know, but it's feasible for such a large developer and people genuinely want that option.

Suggesting that it matters and that, logically, Ubisoft will care about what their fanbase wants is reasonable. If someone suggests that, it doesn't mean they themselves want female characters in the game or that they are "demanding" or "requiring" that Ubisoft add them in.

You want the entire game to be played by an either a female or male PC?

Different developer and a different genre, but Mass Effect did this for three games. Same with Saints Row which had multiple voice options for each gender. It's possible to do and there are people who want it. If Ubisoft doesn't want to do that, they can say just that rather than try to make excuses for what they decided on setting out to do.

 

[The Librarian]

And if they wrote an AC V story featuring Arno as the only playable character and is a male, then what the heck is wrong with that. Should every game be created to accommodate both male and female leads? We don't say that for books or movies or hell any other piece of media.

Nobody's talking about strictly single-player games. It's about games that are blurring the lines between multiplayer and co-op.

 

[John Kowalski]

They obviously had a focus for this game. And that focus was obviously to deliver a higher quality than what we've had in the past. AC:Liberations animations are bad. Period. The look unnatural, stiff and unlike the fluidity seen in AC3. That's due to reskinning. Reskinning is bad. We have NO idea how the development of the game went. We have at best a small idea of what their pipeline was like. We haven't seen deadlines, schedules, or anything of that nature. What we do have, is a clear vision of what they want to accomplish. And quite frankly, female character animation was not a priority because it conflicts with other more important aspects of development. That's not an issue. At all. A clear focus and a pipeline that isn't hindered by something arbitrary and unnecessary results in a better product. Period. It always has, not just with games but any project.

Playable female characters aren't arbitrary or unnecessary.

Welp, couple of post too late.

 

[Glass Rebel]

They spent 4 different games representing the gender. Not only that but literally every AC game has had a female character that the protagonist depends on for reasons other than romance. Adding a female playable character in this instance, is not as important because of the workload involved. We've already seen what happens when they half ass this. So they decided to cut it instead of half-assing it. Do you want a half-assed version of this? Because I sure don't on a next gen only game.

So you do agree.

What I want is pretty irrelevant. Ubisoft made a choice to feature 4 player co-op and designed the game and its systems in ways that wouldn't allow them to have female characters because of whatever reasons. That's really all there is to this entire controversy, they decided that female inclusion is less important than the plethora of systems and content that actually made it into the game.

 

[Sianos]

People are forgetting the most important part of Jonathan Cooper's interview
"It's not the best quality," Cooper concluded. "It's definitely a compromise in quality.
^ This is the main issue. Ubisoft did not want to compromise in quality. You people are literally asking for a compromise in quality. And that's why I find this ridiculous. Besides the other technical limitations like the fact that all the outfits would have to be redesigned and re-rigged. And we'd have to create the technology where somehow, the animations that a player is seeing are separate from what another player is seeing in realtime.

Stop moving the goal posts, please.

"female character animation was not a priority because it conflicts with other more important aspects of development" - you, a few post ago

There are also technical flaws in your argument as well.

For one, "we'd have to create the technology where somehow, the animations that a player is seeing are separate from what another player is seeing in realtime". That's exactly what "the player plays as Arno, but other player sees him as [generic dude]" is. This is the difference between having client-side and world-side viewmodels, something commonly done in first person shooting games.

Female assassin models already present in the game could be used with the outfits that female NPC's wear. Extra animation work would need to be done if those NPC's do not have detail parity with Arno, but for a polished AAA title NPC's should look just as detailed as the player character to uphold the atmosphere and immersion of the game.

 

[Azih]

Joss Whedon doesn't say "I only hire men because women are too hard to work with" though, which is basically the equivalent of what is being said here.

No it really isn't. There not being any outcry that Breaking Bad doesn't accommodate a female chemistry teacher turned drug dealers in addition to Walter White on the other hand is.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Well, since we don't know how development went, we can't say whether it'd be too much work to have female playable characters.

We can say that it's too much work just from the things involved
-All of Arno's animations are male centric. Including the dynamic ones, the contextual ones, and the quirks from the actors who immerse themselves in his role during motion capture.
-All of his outfits are supposed to look like they were made specifically for him. Because they were. All of the secondary animations on his outfits have to look convincing.
-All of the weapons equipment animations have to work specifically for him.
In other words, Arno IS a character in a story, not an avatar in an rpg. He's not Shepard from Mass Effect or Dovahkiin from Skyrim. He's an actual person, with his own quirks, feelings and story. Now what you're asking for is that they reduce that feeling and make him less like he's his actual person and more like a generic avatar. And that's not what Ubisoft wanted to do. They don't deserve to be crucified for this. No one should be crucified for this. Especially not when the person playing the game doesn't even themselves a female avatar.

 

[block tower]

why does the animation have to even be any different? just do what many other games do and use a unisex animation system.

 

[besada]

And if they wrote an AC V story featuring Arno as the only playable character and is a male, then what the heck is wrong with that. Should every game be created to accommodate both male and female leads? We don't say that for books or movies or hell any other piece of media.

Nothing is wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with people complaining about it. Artists make choices, then they accept responsibility for those choices. They don't blame their brushes for being incapable of painting a woman, when they decided to paint a man. And if people are upset that they excluded half the population, they complain about it.

And, again, we frequently complain about books and movies that aren't representative of gender. It's a complaint that's as old as the hills, and one that's unlikely to go away any time soon.

 

[firehawk12]

No it really isn't. There not being any outcry that Breaking Bad doesn't accommodate a female chemistry teacher turned drug dealers in addition to Walter White on the other hand is.

That's not what is being discussed here, at least by some people following the original interview anyway.
If you don't want to have a female character, that's fine. But don't say it's because "it's too hard" when it isn't.

At least the Hausers had the balls to say that they had men in GTAV because they wanted to make a game about American masculinity.

 

[nynt9]

All of these decisions were made AFTER they decided there would be no playable female assassin, given that they're predicated on Arno. None of that excuses their initial decision to create a story in which there would be no female playable character. That's what so many seem to be missing.

Technical arguments are a red herring. If they had decided to have a playable female assassin, and thought it was important, the game design would be based around the potential for either gender to be the assassin.

It's the initial choice -- the one that says at best a female playable assassin is an afterthought -- that has people upset. Not that they can't go through and wedge one I'm for technical reasons. If they'd cared to do it, there was plenty of time and talent available to make it happen during the design phase.

So you're saying the protagonist of the game should have been female all along?

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's not arbitrary and unnecessary when you're a girl.

It's arbitrary and unnecessary to make a male seem more like a female on another player's screen while the person who's playing doesn't see themselves that way. No game has ever done this.

 

[Wiktor]

Nobody's talking about strictly single-player games. It's about games that are blurring the lines between multiplayer and co-op.

Storyline and lore are extremely important in AC series. The series wouldn't really survive main lead dynamically changing his gende everytime he turns a corner. If you want that then maybe this simply isn't a series for you?

 

[Azih]

Wanting every game to feature a completely generic Sheppard like Mass Effect or a female skin on male acting like Saint's Row is crazy to me. This is arguing for LESS diversity in creativity. There should be male lead characters in games like there are in books and movies, and theatre, and there should be female lead characters in games like there are in books and movies and theatre etc.

 

[besada]

So you're saying the protagonist of the game should have been female all along?

I'm saying that Ubisoft made a choice to make only a playable male character.

 

[APF]

-All of Arno's animations are male centric.

Aah, so it all comes down to dong physics.

The series wouldn't really survive main lead dynamically changing his gende everytime he turns a corner.

Your point is the series never has the playable character be a different person?

 

[Cat Party]

I'm glad to see this issue really blow up in Ubisoft's face, not because I have anything against Ubi, but because the excuse they are using here needs to die forever.

Otherwise, Ubi tends to be pretty inclusive. There's still progress to be made, though.

 

[Sianos]

And if they wrote an AC V story featuring Arno as the only playable character and is a male, then what the heck is wrong with that. Should every game be created to accommodate both male and female leads? We don't say that for books or movies or hell any other piece of media.

Edit: Why doesn't Mad Men have a counterpart show featuring Donna Draper as lead?

Goal posts are being moved here as well. I am perfectly fine with there being only a male single-player lead, as the story is written for Arnos just as other stories are written for female leads. HOWEVER,

The issue isn't with the main character himself: I have no qualms with Arno's being a man, the story is written for him just as some stories are written for female leads. The point is more that there is no option in the avatar projection for others to see in co-op there is no option to project yourself as a female assassin.

Whoever posted that a page ago clearly stated exactly what their issue with this is

Spoiler

it was me I posted it, you can read it on the last page

 

[Blackthorn]

It's arbitrary and unnecessary to make a male seem more like a female on another player's screen while the person who's playing doesn't see themselves that way. No game has ever done this.

Watch_Dogs.

 

[The Librarian]

Storyline and lore are extremely important in AC series. The series wouldn't really survive main lead dynamically changing his gende everytime he turns a corner. If you want that then maybe this simply isn't a series for you?

I don't see why it wouldn't survive. You're assuming every person would do this. This is an option.

 

[nynt9]

I'm saying that Ubisoft made a choice to make only a playable male character.

Considering they only have one playable character, your statement means you wanted that character to be female? Or did you want it to be an entirely different game with multiple protagonists?

 

[Dragonborn]

Goal posts are being moved here as well. I am perfectly fine with there being only a male single-player lead, as the story is written for Arnos just as other stories are written for female leads. HOWEVER,



Whoever posted that a page ago clearly stated exactly what their issue with this is

Spoiler

it was me I posted it, you can read it on the last page

But if Arno is the main character why would it be projected as a female assassin? In co-op, everyone is Arno, and as such they are all male. No?

 

[Sai-kun]

Ultimately, I think the only thing to be done in this situation is make people aware that the bullshit answers that Ubi spit out are...well, bullshit.

They should have just said from the start "All four players play as Arnaud, and are free to customize him as they like", because it seems like that's the part that people aren't seeing.

We can say that it's too much work just from the things involved
-All of Arno's animations are male centric. Including the dynamic ones, the contextual ones, and the quirks from the actors who immerse themselves in his role during motion capture.
-All of his outfits are supposed to look like they were made specifically for him. Because they were. All of the secondary animations on his outfits have to look convincing.
-All of the weapons equipment animations have to work specifically for him.
In other words, Arno IS a character in a story, not an avatar in an rpg. He's not Shepard from Mass Effect or Dovahkiin from Skyrim. He's an actual person, with his own quirks, feelings and story. Now what you're asking for is that they reduce that feeling and make him less like he's his actual person and more like a generic avatar. And that's not what Ubisoft wanted to do. They don't deserve to be crucified for this. No one should be crucified for this. Especially not when the person playing the game doesn't even themselves a female avatar.

wat? What about running, jumping, assassinating is "male centric"?

actually your whole post is just...what? Reuse of animations created for Arnaud could absolutely be done, if they wanted to. Battlefield 3 reused the hurdling animation that Faith did in MIrror's Edge.

edit: also, companies and people absolutely deserved to be called out on things like this. They are a COMPANY, I'm sure that they'll feel fine once the dough starts rolling in.

 

[besada]

Considering they only have one playable character, your statement means you wanted that character to be female?

No. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. In a response to bad arguments regarding the technical inability to make a female playable character, I pointed out that Ubisoft could have made a female playable character if they had wanted to do so and considered it important.

I personally don't much care whether the main character is female or male.

 

[nynt9]

Ultimately, I think the only thing to be done in this situation is make people aware that the bullshit answers that Ubi spit out are...well, bullshit.

They should have just said from the start "All four players play as Arnaud, and are free to customize him as they like"



wat? What about running, jumping, assassinating is "male centric"?

actually your whole post is just...what? Reuse of animations created for Arnaud could absolutely be done, if they wanted to. Battlefield 3 reused the hurdling animation that Faith did in MIrror's Edge.

It has been pointed out that this has been done (reusing male animations for females) in Mass Effect, AC: Liberation and Watch_Dogs and every time it's looked terrible.

 

[Sianos]

Storyline and lore are extremely important in AC series. The series wouldn't really survive main lead dynamically changing his gende everytime he turns a corner. If you want that then maybe this simply isn't a series for you?

The issue isn't with the main character himself: I have no qualms with Arno's being a man, the story is written for him just as some stories are written for female leads. The point is more that there is no option in the avatar projection for others to see in co-op there is no option to project yourself as a female assassin.

It's not the lead changing genders etc., its the lack of inclusiveness of a female character in the co-op avatar projection and the excuse for why there is no option for a female character in the co-op avatar projection. Whether or not Arnos being the solitary white, male hero is fine or not is an entirely different topic (and in my opinion, if the single player story is written about one fleshed out dude, its fine if he's the MC, just as Chell in Portal in the single player campaign is a woman).

 

[Azih]

Nothing is wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with people complaining about it. Artists make choices, then they accept responsibility for those choices. They don't blame their brushes for being incapable of painting a woman, when they decided to paint a man. And if people are upset that they excluded half the population, they complain about it.

And it's perfectly fine to call out the complaints as turning a molehill into a mountain as well. There's nothing wrong with having a male lead in a single player story game. There's nothing wrong with devs going for 'seamless' drop in co-op throughout the course of a single player campaign. The combination of those two things however make it incredibly diminished returns to having a female projection as the main character of the player never changes.

And, again, we frequently complain about books and movies that aren't representative of gender. It's a complaint that's as old as the hills, and one that's unlikely to go away any time soon.

I certainly don't see those complaints for things like Breaking Bad and Mad Men.

 

[Trose]

Why not let creators create their own vision, and if you don't like it don't buy it. Everything doesn't have to be made by committee. Too much political correctness nowadays.

 

[Morphine_OD]

I don't see any sexism in that. It could be a decision that makes someone unhappy, but I doubt it was made because somehow the director felt that females were inferior or didn't deserve attention. Whatever reason is - it shouldn't be mixed with sexism. And fyi equal representation is not a law, there is nothing wrong with social groups not being represented at all, it's all inside the creator's mind. Facts are - women are often featured in games and literally nothing implies that them not being featured is because of some ill intent.

 

[Sianos]

But if Arno is the main character why would it be projected as a female assassin? In co-op, everyone is Arno, and as such they are all male. No?

But you appear as a different character to other players and can customize the appearance of what you appear as to other players, but not the gender.

It's a confusing system, but it works a lot like the secret bases in the third generation Pokemon games (which had an option for you to appear as a male or female NPC).

 

[APF]

Why not let creators create their own vision

You mean where the creators said they wanted to allow the option but weren't able to due to a lack of resources?


Edit: Breaking Bad had multiplayer?

 

[Sai-kun]

It has been pointed out that this has been done (reusing male animations for females) in Mass Effect, AC: Liberation and Watch_Dogs and every time it's looked terrible.

I don't think the reused animations in BF looked terrible, and I've never played ME or AC:L, so I can't comment on those.

 

[Wiktor]

Your point is the series never has the playable character be a different person?

Umm..no. The person I was answering to suggested the one lead character in single the game could change his gender, during that one campaign. You would be playing a male in one mission and suddenly your character would grow lady parts and continue like nothing happened.

 

[maxcriden]

Do you really think american speaking, white males are a creative decision?

I know I was by no means a creative decision, if that's what you mean.

 

[Wiktor]

It's not the lead changing genders etc., its the lack of inclusiveness of a female character in the co-op avatar projection and the excuse for why there is no option for a female character in the co-op avatar projection. Whether or not Arnos being the solitary white, male hero is fine or not is an entirely different topic (and in my opinion, if the single player story is written about one fleshed out dude, its fine if he's the MC, just as Chell in Portal in the single player campaign is a woman).

Dude, mind the context. You clearly didn't get it in this case.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Playable female characters aren't arbitrary or unnecessary.

Welp, couple of post too late.

It is in the case of AC:Unity. Not because they DIDN'T want to do it. But because they couldn't do it in the time they had for the game's development. Would you prefer a half assed jerky female character doing unnatural movements?

So you do agree.

What I want is pretty irrelevant. Ubisoft made a choice to feature 4 player co-op and designed the game and its systems in ways that wouldn't allow them to have female characters because of whatever reasons. That's really all there is to this entire controversy, they decided that female inclusion is less important than the plethora of systems and content that actually made it into the game.

Because it is. All the content and the plethora of systems are supposed to hit this high quality bar. And halting those systems for a female character instead of making sure everything works results in a lower product. There's no way of getting around it. (Without a delay).

why does the animation have to even be any different? just do what many other games do and use a unisex animation system.

Because this isn't mass effect or other games. This is AC. And part of the animation of AC games,(especially this one) is making sure that the main character feels unique. They have their own personality and a set of quirks that only they do. That's the benefit of motion capture. You get realistic human quirks during movement. Haytham stands upright, Connor leans to the side, Nathan Drake always looks around. These are all things that are important to making a memorable character. This isn't a generic rpg character.

 

[Moobabe]

What is it that you guys find more upsetting (for want of a better word)

Is it that you can't play as a female assassin in the game or Ubisoft's reasoning (and explanation) of that decision?

 

[Azih]

But you appear as a different character to other players and can customize the appearance of what you appear as to other players, but not the gender.

You can only change the clothing and gear. Changes that are in the single player game anway. You can't make a chubby dude. You can't make a black dude. You get someone who has a build identical to Arno. It's minimal.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

We can say that it's too much work just from the things involved
-All of Arno's animations are male centric. Including the dynamic ones, the contextual ones, and the quirks from the actors who immerse themselves in his role during motion capture.
-All of his outfits are supposed to look like they were made specifically for him. Because they were. All of the secondary animations on his outfits have to look convincing.
-All of the weapons equipment animations have to work specifically for him.
In other words, Arno IS a character in a story, not an avatar in an rpg. He's not Shepard from Mass Effect or Dovahkiin from Skyrim. He's an actual person, with his own quirks, feelings and story. Now what you're asking for is that they reduce that feeling and make him less like he's his actual person and more like a generic avatar. And that's not what Ubisoft wanted to do. They don't deserve to be crucified for this. No one should be crucified for this. Especially not when the person playing the game doesn't even themselves a female avatar.

You're missing the point. All of this is because Ubisoft decided to have a single male playable character for the game, and they decided to build their multiplayer in a way that doesn't readily allow them to have female characters after having decided on the male player character.

Even ignoring the notion that this character's animations wouldn't work for a female character (or even some of those animations), we can't say it'd have been "too much" work to have entire other female character to choose with their own story, or with female-specific story elements altered. Nothing requires this story (particularly an Assassin's Creed game story) to have a male character.

Criticisms for these decisions don't equal crucifixion. Arno isn't a real person either, he's a character portrayed/mocapped by a real person and that's it.

 

[nynt9]

No. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. In a response to bad arguments regarding the technical inability to make a female playable character, I pointed out that Ubisoft could have made a female playable character if they had wanted to do so and considered it important.

I personally don't much care whether the main character is female or male.

I'm pointing out that the core design of the game is centered around one character and the story of the game presumably is centered around Arno, so having a female character would either require the addition of multiple protagonists, or it would require them to have a completely different story that allowed for a gender-swappable protagonist. Either way seems like a complete revamp of the core concepts the game to me. Do you agree on this much?

Yes, if they really wanted to they could have started out with the core concepts allowing a female protagonist. But even if they did so, I would hope that they did it because they had a good story to tell and/or interesting gameplay rather than because they consider having a female protagonist "important" for cultural reasons. (Not saying they can't tell an interesting story with a female). Would you agree, or do you think social representation is more important than story/gameplay? Or am I completely wrong?


Edit: I'm not trying to create a false dichotomy of "story/gameplay versus women", I hope that's clear.

 

[Wiktor]

I don't see why it wouldn't survive. You're assuming every person would do this. This is an option.

I don;t think any selfrespecting dev should include option this surreal. if they did it would send a clear message that the series turned into Monty Python sketch, not a story that takes itself seriously

 

[APF]

Umm..no. The person I was answering to suggested the one lead character in single the game could change his gender, during that one campaign.

Is it or is it not true that the series has multiple points where the playable character changes from one person to another?

They have their own personality and a set of quirks that only they do. That's the benefit of motion capture. You get realistic human quirks during movement. Haytham stands upright, Connor leans to the side

It's unfortunate that you had to play two AC games to get the opportunity to play both Haytham and Connor.

 

[besada]

And it's perfectly fine to call out the complaints as turning a mountain into a molehill as well. There's nothing wrong with having a male lead in a single player story game.

There's also nothing wrong with having a female protagonist in a game, or having a choice of protagonist -- all of these are artistic choices and all are open to critique.

I certainly don't see those complaints for things like Breaking Bad and Mad Men.

Then you aren't paying attention. There were huge issues over the way women were portrayed in Breaking Bad, covered in many different newspapers. You not knowing about it doesn't change the facts. Video games are new to this sort of critique, largely because no one's ever taken them seriously enough to critique, but, like comic books, both are now firmly in the sites of academia, and both are seeing many of the same critiques, including how they represent and exclude women.

If you're actually interested, I'd be happy to send you some links via PM.

Yes, if they really wanted to they could have started out with the core concepts allowing a female protagonist. But even if they did so, I would hope that they did it because they had a good story to tell and/or interesting gameplay rather than because they consider having a female protagonist "important" for cultural reasons. (Not saying they can't tell an interesting story with a female). Would you agree, or do you think social representation is more important than story/gameplay? Or am I completely wrong?

I would hope that they considered both, honestly, as they don't stand as obstacles to one another, any more than having a male protagonist stands as an obstacle to good story. They made a choice not to include a female protagonist, for whatever creative reasons they have. It's okay if that upsets some people, and it's okay if those people talk about it. I think gender inclusion is important AND I think story is important. It's up to creators to find a way to serve their entire audience, or to live with the complaints of those they don't serve well.

 

[Warm Machine]

I have a female animator friend who has worked in the game industry for 20 years who I trust absolutely. She says this is a fuck ton of work to do PROPERLY.

Yes, you can retarget animations. You can also retarget animations from a man onto a dragon. That doesn't meant the results are all that great either.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Yes, if they really wanted to they could have started out with the core concepts allowing a female protagonist.

Yes, that's it.