Nostremitus
Member
Probably written by a guy. Or meant to point out how utterly rediculous those types of comments are... Hard to tell.
No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
Probably written by a guy. Or meant to point out how utterly rediculous those types of comments are... Hard to tell.
But this discussion is about how the gaming environment operates.
If you are going to start playing ranked matches in any online game, you will receive hateful messages. If you put your own persona out there, then it becomes more complicated as the trolls have more ammunition. You can be a female, a short person, immigrant, someone with a speech disorder and so on.
I can only speak from my own experience of course, I don't have any statistics. Now I believe it to be entirely possible - or probable - that females get more flack depending on the game and platform. In Ultima Online I witnessed very little sexism even though I spent tons of time with female gamers within the game. This dynamic changed completely in Counter-Strike where rape jokes were common and the atmosphere was very abusive.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Interesting you brought this up. At first I always thought that she was never like this but being in a male dominant field almost feels like she was required to change to be "down with the boys." She was the chill chick that if she did have a honest "women moment", would instantly get blasted for it immediately.
The Librarian
Banned
So you're saying men having higher sex drives leads to them acting like jerks?
Sorry, I wouldn't buy that at any store.
Thanks. I mean, I've probably done it a couple of times in the past (I don't think so, but it's a possibility) in order to fit in and hide my identity, but never again.
And no, I've never watched Dexter.
SliceSabre
Banned
Agreed.
I've grown to dislike this growing idea that somehow because I like that in a video game someone makes me or the people who made the games out to be bad people.
Dragonborn
Member
It's not that it's a boys club, it's just a side effect of the majority of posters being male. Are there any stats on how many users on GAF are male/female? I'd imagine it's pretty lopsided which is why it ends up feeling like a "boys club". I get what you mean though.
I know exactly how you feel.
I was really surprised she was added and looked forward to her but upon going through the topic and seeing nothing but posts about her sex appeal, I've actually been turned off by her. I will say I'm glad that wasn't the general response to Zelda tho. She's always been a badass tho so maybe that's why? Or maybe it was that animated promo for Palutena. Still, those reactions are always so excessive.
It's hard to get into a character or game when all that's talked about is how hot they are or how the jiggle physics are the primary attraction. Much like going into a Nicki Minaj topic immediately calls for pages and pages of pictures of her body and how they want to bone her or debates about her plastic surgery or something. She's an extremely beautiful woman (I love her myself) but when it stretches on for 15 pages of all that, it's ridiculous...
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
That's a whole other topic that maybe someday will be made.
But not from me. This username is sometimes a curse.
Not even we know, because women often feel the need to hide they are women in online environments.
Again, if ANY poster believes that a discussion is excluding them, or that the tenor of the conversation is inappropriate, please contact a mod. There are only so many of us, and most of us have full time jobs, post on GAF, AND moderate. There is no doubt we miss many things. That's why we need your help.
The Librarian
Banned
Just because NeoGAF is mostly male doesn't mean it has to feel like a boys' club.
My philosophy is this: I don't want anyone to feel alienated.
It's inevitable that we'll all alienate each other at some point, no matter how hard we try to avoid it. But we should always strive to create a culture of inclusion, rather than exclusion.
It's so easy to suffer inside one's head. We should draw people out and accept them for who they are. Our goal should be to make the world a kinder, gentler place for us having been here.
My view is that regardless of whether you're a physical man or woman who identifies as the same or opposite gender... or whether you're a mix of the two, mentally or physically... or whether you're this race or that race... or whether you're wealthy or poor... or chaste or a player... or left-wing or right-wing... or heavy or thin... or religious or atheist... or whatever you may be... If you try to love others as best you can, you're a wonderful person to me.
Well, there's my unsolicited serious post. Now I'm back to other threads being silly.
It's inevitable that we'll all alienate each other at some point, no matter how hard we try to avoid it. But we should always strive to create a culture of inclusion, rather than exclusion.
It's so easy to suffer inside one's head. We should draw people out and accept them for who they are. Our goal should be to make the world a kinder, gentler place for us having been here.
My view is that regardless of whether you're a physical man or woman who identifies as the same or opposite gender... or whether you're a mix of the two, mentally or physically... or whether you're this race or that race... or whether you're wealthy or poor... or chaste or a player... or left-wing or right-wing... or heavy or thin... or religious or atheist... or whatever you may be... If you try to love others as best you can, you're a wonderful person to me.
Well, there's my unsolicited serious post. Now I'm back to other threads being silly.
BlastProcessing
Member
Sadly, dumb can be just as destructive as malicious. If we want things to improve, it's down to us to help people see what they are being ignorant about.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Scar Mortico
Banned
MEsoJD
Banned
I believe this is more of a result of being in a public online position, working in an industry of very passionate consumers, and being the minority. Not to say that this type of behavior is acceptable, but I think sites like polygon are trying to milk this bandwagon topic(sexism and Women). I know women in the industry and they don't have this problem. Let's not forget that people get nasty on the internet in general because of their identity isn't out in the open. The positives is that no topic is safe from criticism, but people go too far when they threaten others. People like to act like Women are the only ones who face sexism, but men do all the time. It's just that the media doesn't like to focus on it because people aren't as sentimental to men as they are with women. Anyway I better stop before I get labeled as sexist.
Well, in that particular post I was just pointing out that there has been a lot of hot guys posted in Girl-Gaf in the past. I wasn't making any real particular point there.
I have already stated that I understand the reason why you would not want particularly lewd and crass comments,
However, to go back to my original comment about this, I do find the topic a bit weird in a much broader sense. In that to lust for and to be sexually attracted to is to objectify.And it is from that perspective where I wonder why anyone would be upset by me expressing my attraction to the opposite sex, e.g. Simply referring to woman who is being discussed, maybe a celebrity, as "hot". The very root of me saying that stems from my own innate sexuality, I couldn't imagine why women would be angry by that when they are themselves sexual beings and are quite capable of expressing themselves the same way.
So, for me, simply expressing one's attraction to the opposite sex, depending on whether the context it is said is appropriate, there isn't anything that wrong with it. Being incredibly lewd and crass on the other hand isn't really appropriate in most contexts therefore people should refrain from doing so. That way there is a comfortable environment for people of both genders to have a civil conversation.
posted?
Sure, but a) too many idiots have their own self-imposed exceptions to that rule to excuse their behaviour; b) too many of them don't think they are being a 'fuckwad,' and c) eliminating anonymity does nothing.
licktheenvelope
Member
Yup, but mostly between ages 15-25.
I'm not saying it makes us all 'jerks' but I definetely felt much much more obsessed with sexual images/thinking about sex during that period of my life.
I don't know if it's the same with women but I don't believe it is, based on the conversations I had.
I would love to be proven wrong.
I believe it's all going to go towards increased regulation of the internet. Local news stories, cover songs on YouTube, articles on video games, they have all become subject to some serious filth. I'm no longer surprised when people get criminally charged for the shit they say on the internet.
I say, take it the next step further. If the internet is going to become a public utility it needs more regulation. I want judges to start un-networking people permanently. Ethernet castration.
I say, take it the next step further. If the internet is going to become a public utility it needs more regulation. I want judges to start un-networking people permanently. Ethernet castration.
The Librarian
Banned
You are wrong. There's nothing innate about testosterone that causes men to harass women.Yup, but mostly between ages 15-25.
I'm not saying it makes us all 'jerks' but I definetely felt much much more obsessed with sexual images/thinking about sex during that period of my life.
I don't know if it's the same with women but I don't believe it is, based on the conversations I had.
I would love to be proven wrong.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yup. It's one thing to post pics of hot guys or girls in threads where they belong (e.g. the LGBT thread, GirlGAF, etc.) and just say "wow" (I've never seen anyone be so crass as to share explicitly sexual details either, just "what a hottie" at the most), but derailing normal threads with objectifying bullshit is pretty damn alienating, especially because it's so one-sided. This applies whether it's for fictional female characters or real-life women, realy.
Very annoying how women of all professions are always noticed first for their looks, and then maybe for their work or their accomplishments.
Dragonborn
Member
No, of course not. But what I mean is that, when it's so lopsided (again, I'm assuming most of GAF is male, I honestly don't know), you just end up forgetting, you know? Like you just discuss thing as you would any other thing with you're real life circle of friends, and you forget that you could be offending someone. I don't think anyone on here is actively trying to excludes others, I certainly am not. But I understand what you're saying. Maybe I'm no explaining myself as best I could but hopefully it's gets my point out. I admit, unless someone says otherwise, I just assume it's another guy, and I'm sure I'm not alone. In my opinion, that also contributes to the problem.
Yup, but mostly between ages 15-25.
I'm not saying it makes us all 'jerks' but I definetely felt much much more obsessed with sexual images/thinking about sex during that period of my life.
I don't know if it's the same with women but I don't believe it is, based on the conversations I had.
I would love to be proven wrong.
The belief that women dont have the same sort of sex drive as men is archaic and incorrect. Women are sexual beings as well. To me, that always reads as a pseudo science excuse for sexist behavior.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Yup, but mostly between ages 15-25.
I'm not saying it makes us all 'jerks' but I definetely felt much much more obsessed with sexual images/thinking about sex during that period of my life.
I don't know if it's the same with women but I don't believe it is, based on the conversations I had.
I would love to be proven wrong.
No guy admits he looks at porn in any conversation period. You could be in your 50s and still be looking at PlayBoy. Sex will sell no matter what. This is just a medium like movies and television. If it isn't the 3D character in a video game it's a secret service agent or Game of Throne's character. Sex is a part of life, you work around it, you go outside with it, it's everywhere.
Just because a site is trying to "milk this bandwagon" doesn't make the issues highlighted any less important. Whatever rationale leading to the creation of this article shouldn't matter if the subject matter presented is well-informed and enlightening. As for the rest of your post, take some time to read replies in this thread and the article itself to understand the counterpoints to the arguments you and many other have already made.
EDIT: Welp
InsaneZero
Member
From my perspective, the economy nor the culture at large aren't the biggest hurdles. The biggest problem is that women have become largely marginalized within the traditional gaming industry, so the women that actually do try to break are met with reactions ranging from indifference to hostility. Which is why I think that the most likely scenario where the situation would improve is when people outside that circle start to gather a large enough influence that can no longer be ignored.
If you can't join them, beat them.
Why label Gaf as a boys club? I don't see every guy acting a idiot or saying things that disrespecting women. It is a small group of people(for gaf anyways) that are vocal with their comments. I hate the whole we have to give a label everything idea. Labeling gaf "boys club" implies you are labeling every one the same when we aren't.
There is a huge problem in gaming culture as far as abuse is considered. It needs to be dealt with but in all honesty the service providers are reluctant to take real action and customers are not willing to risk their identity being exposed.
And someone asked me if I received hateful messages for being a male. Well it depends how you choose to define abuse in various circumstances. Males receive a lot of abuse related to their inexperience with women (read : virgin), living with their mothers, not being responsible and real males, being nerds who are not able to perform X Y Z. Masculinity has played a significant role in the messages I've received over the years
ShockingAlberto
Member
*says a bunch of sexist shit*
"I better stop before I get labeled as a sexist."
This is the equivalent of stealing money from the cash register and then going "I better stop before I get labeled as a thief" so you don't close the money drawer after you're done.
Regardless of the opinion of the moderation staff, I'm pretty dead set against using the word since it is literally equating someone with being bad as being female genitalia. Same with calling someone a "pussy" or whatever. If you want to use it, whatever. I am just saying that in this particular context I think it's wildly inappropriate.
SkeptiMism
Member
Really, no offense, but you're part of the problem when you'd say that and when you think that.
Yes, it's possible that a woman wearing something is wearing it to get attention, but it's entirely possible she just wanted to wear it for whatever other reason (for example for a reason as simple as being used to it from her childhood - many children use quite revealing clothes and naturally they don't think about how much it reveals). Not one single person should ever have to think like "if I wear this, will everyone think I'm just looking for attention?".
But unfortunately, because your way of thinking is so common, so many women have to think about it daily. "Oh this shows my upper chest slightly, is that bad?" "This shows my thighs a little, is it too much?" "Will people ogle my boobs when I wear this shirt even though it covers them completely?"
Glass Shark
Banned
I just want to chime in to say that the mod team is doing excellent work with this thread.
It's much more likely to be the result of the socially conditioned range of responses. These are learned behaviors. Women have the same impulses. I don't assume you're suggesting that men physiologically can't control themselves, but it seems to be an unintended corollary to your point. Women don't "desire" any less.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Presumably her point is not that everything is guilty of this, but that enough people are that it contributes to an overall culture of having a boys club.
I'm not a big fan of it, either, to be honest. I find most of the arguments in favor to be largely specious. But, that's a topic for another day. Let's try not to get derailed about the use of the word.
Just today in the now-locked Xbone vs PS4 power thread people were focusing on pages' worth of posts on an image of Major Nelson standing next to an attractive red-headed woman and posting about how they were going to fap straight away, with animated gifs of lotion bottles etc. I know it's half just joking but it's pretty telling, too. And more than a bit silly.
Professor Beef
Banned
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The fuck does that even mean?
"Boy's club" isn't a binary value. When people use that phrase, they're referring to the dominating trends on GAF, and not insinuating that every single poster on the board is part of this "club", which is ludicrous. The very reason this is an issue is because this mentality is hostile to particular members on this board.
And this isn't a recent thing. If you have been on GAF for the past few years, you would've already seen the signs with regards to shifts in moderation policies and postingrules. The crackdown, in this thread and in other threads, have been a long time coming.
Yep if it has to anything it should be labelled disrespectful or disgusting.
Wow.....hearing those comments was just....I felt nauseous 
.
This industry really needs to fucking grow up X(. These woman work hard to make amazing games and report new gaming information for the world....and all they get is those disgusting insults like those?! Men get them to and it is equally messed up but the fact this appears that this vile is more common toward women is just......gross X(.
Gaming is something that everyone should be able to love and enjoy being part of....so having shit like this happen to people just trying to do what they love is just......it really angers me X(.
Granted....this must happen in all forms of entertainment too; the movie and music industries, the writing industry and I don't think we need to talk about the YouTube comments (those are just gross X(). But all of that has to stop and everyone should just be fucking decent people to each other. That ISN'T hard to do.
What I think is the case is that people who do this negative crap feel 'safe' when doing this due to the annomius nature of the internet. That is messed up, but that is what they must feel.
One day when that annonimus nature is eradicated though....they are in for a rude awakening....
. This industry really needs to fucking grow up X(. These woman work hard to make amazing games and report new gaming information for the world....and all they get is those disgusting insults like those?! Men get them to and it is equally messed up but the fact this appears that this vile is more common toward women is just......gross X(.
Gaming is something that everyone should be able to love and enjoy being part of....so having shit like this happen to people just trying to do what they love is just......it really angers me X(.
Granted....this must happen in all forms of entertainment too; the movie and music industries, the writing industry and I don't think we need to talk about the YouTube comments (those are just gross X(). But all of that has to stop and everyone should just be fucking decent people to each other. That ISN'T hard to do.
What I think is the case is that people who do this negative crap feel 'safe' when doing this due to the annomius nature of the internet. That is messed up, but that is what they must feel.
One day when that annonimus nature is eradicated though....they are in for a rude awakening....
Suzushiiro
Banned
Sorry, in America we have this thing called the first amendment. While there are forms of speech it does not protect (child porn, slander, libel, threats, "yelling fire in a crowded theater," etc.) gender/racial/homophobic slurs and other insults are protected. They kind of have to be, as you can't really ban "I think this woman is a [c-bomb] who should get back in the kitchen" without also banning "I don't like what the government is doing," because both are simply statements of opinion.
While they certainly don't have the right to be heard by everyone who they want to hear the bullshit they spout (which is why you can choose to change the channel, block them on twitter, ban them from forums you own/moderate, etc,) if the choice ever comes between their right to freedom of speech and your right to freedom from speech that you don't like their rights are going to win.
ScriptedReality
Member
I'm not sure if you I'm having a problem comprehending something simple but help me out... What happens if someone contacts a mod because they feel excluded? I mean is this specific cases or something?
ShockingAlberto
Member
I love the men's rights people.
women's rights (and gay rights, for that matter) don't exist in a vaccum. the media doesn't discuss it at random, or because people are "sentimental" towards women (what?). they're a response to something. we don't have hetero pride parades (that I'm aware of) or men's advocacy groups because society is already completely tilted towards straight white men.
licktheenvelope
Member
? That's not what I said it did... it causes a sex drive and aggressiveness. Ya it depends on how it is controlled in how it manifests but it leads to men being more assertive and also a good portion of men to become uncofortably assertive and some are rude... depends on a number of factors. Depends on the levels too, some guys produce more than others. Education and personal training too... lots of factors on how this manifests.
What I was saying is that women don't have this, they don't seem to have this drive. That's why I find it odd to equate women being sexually harassed with men being sexually harassed... I suppose I've been 'sexually harassed' by men too... but I don't feel scared because of it.
When you say "lead to women being harassed more than men" ... that implies an inequality, to me, an easily correctable inequality, but I see differences between the sexes.
EDIT:
To better convey my 'issue' from the male persective is that men are being told how they act, think and feel... and it's not correct. I am all for women's rights, equality, self choice, right to whatever and control of their own bodies, birthing decisions, etc. I am not okay with women telling me how men think and feel, I don't tell women how to think and/or feel.
The Librarian
Banned
I could have maybe accepted this in the first couple of years NeoGAF was online, but now? That isn't a good excuse to me. There are several prominent women on NeoGAF. The vast majority of men here know that women post here too.
Presumably her point is not that everything is guilty of this, but that enough people are that it contributes to an overall culture of having a boys club.
Bingo.