The Librarian
Banned
Then why are you telling me that celebrities like to be talked about sexually (a generality, if there is one), and therefore implying that I should just ignore it?
No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
Then why are you telling me that celebrities like to be talked about sexually (a generality, if there is one), and therefore implying that I should just ignore it?
I'm not familiar with Aisha's history here, so I just kind of deduced from her tone at the start of her thread that she's dealt with shit on the Internet before. I didn't know it had already happened here, of all places.
At any rate, it just makes me wonder what kind of hateful comments she sees. As an attractive, strong-willed, opinionated woman who is in the public eye, she probably attracts the sort of bile we see in the OP. Combine that with the fact that she's involved in the gaming community, and she probably garners additional hate from certain people. And then of course she's black, so she'll attract racist comments.
I really can't blame her one bit for putting up her dukes. The Internet is crazy. :-\
I think this is the biggest thing right here...we all have different experiences. Because yes, absolutely, and I honestly can't remember the last time I was around a group where I wouldn't have felt comfortable saying that (mostly doctors). I guess in my mind if you ask someone what they physically think of a woman, and they respond that she is physically attractive, and has started the launch sequence that attractive women sometimes launch, it's to be expected??
Someone mentioned how working in a bar would be the worst...6 of my 7 close friends are female, 4 work in bars...and they love it...and sure they get hit on, but they can dish it right back...so saying something like "yeah, i'd do her" wouldn't even get a weird glance. Maybe these females aren't holding themselves to high enough standards...or it just simply doesn't bother them...I dunno, but I sometimes feel a weird disconnect between the women in my life and women online getting offended by cat calls.
I just don't know how to bridge that gap in my head how it can be serious harassment to some, but range from flattery to slight bother for others...I think this is also what leads to a lot of men being such pigs...it WORKS. Men pick up women like this. Perhaps not the classiest women...but maybe my friends aren't the classiest either lol i don't know...I'm surrounded by people who don't get offended, and GAF sometimes makes me wonder how different the midwest really is from other parts of the world/US
I think I've said this repeatedly every time this thread comes up, but I'll say it again.
These issues stem from systemic cultural problems that have far wider and deeper root causes that must be addressed before we'll see meaningful change in the symptoms.
This isn't a game industry issue alone, it's an every day of life problem that manifests itself everywhere.
If you're a guy and this bothers you (it damn well should), and you want to fix it, watch what you say, watch what other guys around you say, and pay attention to how you and other guys around you act towards women on a daily basis.
And more importantly, speak up when someone in your social circles steps out of bounds with their behavior. You don't need to shake the foundations of society with pickets, million man marches, or a hunger strike. Just say 'knock it off', if not in so many words. Baby steps.
Unless you take that single simple step, they're not going to change their behavior, and they probably won't even spare a thought that they might have done something inappropriate.
Yes, they might blow you off, but that you even said anything at all will stick in their head. People don't change ingrained behaviors overnight, but they do reflect on those behaviors when someone confronts them directly. Ever made a well reasoned argument to a friend or acquaintance who initially rejected your opinion and then later slowly shifted their viewpoint slightly (or greatly)? Change takes time.
Otherwise, I think it's good (in a sort of awful, roundabout way) that these threads do seem to pop up on a regular basis. It sucks that they do, but it's good that people speak up, and good that people discuss the problem.
These issues stem from systemic cultural problems that have far wider and deeper root causes that must be addressed before we'll see meaningful change in the symptoms.
This isn't a game industry issue alone, it's an every day of life problem that manifests itself everywhere.
If you're a guy and this bothers you (it damn well should), and you want to fix it, watch what you say, watch what other guys around you say, and pay attention to how you and other guys around you act towards women on a daily basis.
And more importantly, speak up when someone in your social circles steps out of bounds with their behavior. You don't need to shake the foundations of society with pickets, million man marches, or a hunger strike. Just say 'knock it off', if not in so many words. Baby steps.
Unless you take that single simple step, they're not going to change their behavior, and they probably won't even spare a thought that they might have done something inappropriate.
Yes, they might blow you off, but that you even said anything at all will stick in their head. People don't change ingrained behaviors overnight, but they do reflect on those behaviors when someone confronts them directly. Ever made a well reasoned argument to a friend or acquaintance who initially rejected your opinion and then later slowly shifted their viewpoint slightly (or greatly)? Change takes time.
Otherwise, I think it's good (in a sort of awful, roundabout way) that these threads do seem to pop up on a regular basis. It sucks that they do, but it's good that people speak up, and good that people discuss the problem.
licktheenvelope
Member
I did not and have not.
And the above is correct, on GAF I have not experienced what I conceive as the double-standard I mentioned, and it was not on a 'stream' either.
What i'm talking about is 'the argument' in general right now of the feminist side of the discussion where men are not allowed to talk about how they feel and are instantly shunned out of the conversation when, ironically, it is often men they are calling on to change their nature.
For example, there was a protest like this up this way this year where a woman wore no clothes to promote female empowerment writing "i'm not asking for it" on her chest.
In the comments a male had commented "that's not appropriate dress" and was shunned out as "promoting rape culture" by seeing this woman as a sexual object.
The Librarian
Banned
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It stems from the culture. The industry might be thicker with it, but its a much broader problem
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Check Raticus links she even calls gaf out by name for the crap. Wasn't pretty some of it.
Well yeah, because he missed the fucking point of the slutwalk entirely
Dreams-Visions
Member
This post seemed to have been skipped being at the bottom of the last page. It should not have been. Quality stuff right here.
Well said, young man.
Crimsonsky
Member
Indeed, I've also noticed this. It's a sad, sad thing. The irony doesn't stop there though, no indeed it is thick amongst all of gaming and it's culture. The amount of people who complain they are alone and can't find a woman and then there's this? Take a look around jerks. If you were a woman would you put up with these worms?
We must all do our part, and more, to distance ourselves from these monsters. A lot of people came to gaming as outcasts, looking to escape, would you deny that to another? Why? Gaming should be the most accepting, open, and intellectual hobby in existence. Open and welcoming to all, discriminating against none, and there's no reason why we aren't that already.
This may be true, but I think it's good to shine a light on this issue, even if you're polygon going for clicks. I like that we had this thread, even if it veered nearly off the tracks a few times. I also liked what the mods had to say when they chimed in.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
While I agree with some of his comments, mostly how an antagonistic tone isn't always persuasive, we're going to be waiting a long time if we're waiting for the perfect article on sexism. Particularly if I was a woman who so frequently faced vicious antagonism I would probably have trouble writing about it in a "neutral" way that didn't run any tiny risk of offending the men who might read it.
The Librarian
Banned
I don't see it for the most part. He starts off by saying she's hyperbolic based on...what?
Nice post, said some things that I was thinking better than I could have.
Tying in with your paragraph on men getting defensive, that's definitely true. The word privileged should be swapped out too...it just doesn't sound like it's coming from a place of "we can do this together", but rather from a place of "you can't understand so do what we say". If this article had focused solely on harassment in the industry (even if it featured all women, but didn't call attention), and gave more stories about how these actions of men have negatively impacted their lives, I think they would have had a better, more convincing, less argumentative article.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
No, I think the word privilege is fine. Anyone who is open minded enough to take ten seconds and actually understand privilege shouldn't have a problem with it. And anyone who clings to the definition that makes them feel defensive and criticized...probably is going to feel defensive and criticized by the general dialogue anyway
When you say the Internet, you mean the traditionally male geek part of the net, because my wife participates in a ton of online communities that have none of the stuff we are talking about here. However, if you are a girl who likes video games, comics, sci fi, etc, why should you have to put up with "the internet" to participate in 99% of the online communities centered around those hobbies? If this was a comic book site, we would be having the same discussion about the comic industry (and we sometimes do in the OT board). All traditionally male geek culture deals with this stuff.
because celebrities in general want to be talked about. And i have seen these types of responses from both guys and girls, and I have seen it a million times and I not once saw it as offensive. I never told you what you should or shouldn't ignore. But I just don't see the big deal.
Well, take some solace in the fact this is a relatively progressive industry where women can publicly talk about these problems without destroying their career entirely.
There are still many, much larger industries (finance, consultancy, property etc) where even alluding to the gross 'good old boys' attitude and behaviour towards women in a tweet would immediately get you branded a troublemaker, pushed out the company and blackballed. We're talking about places where overt groping is almost the norm.
At the very least the women in and around tech/gaming are able to find comradery, support and even enact some change while keeping their jobs. There are still millions of others out there who have to be satisfied with no more than a quiet rant at a bar after work with a close friend because of how entrenched this mentality is.
licktheenvelope
Member
Ya but that doesn't explain how he's promoting a culture of rape by feeling uncomfortable at how someone is lacking clothing.
The Librarian
Banned
If you're just saying how you feel, why are you contradicting me in this instance? You're implying I should ignore it, which means you're not taking the issue of feeling isolated as a woman seriously. Which makes me less inclined to speak up about it.
Whatever, dude.
Yeah. :/ It's pretty shocking. A lot of folk doubt that online harassment can actually seriously scar people on the receiving end - but it really can. For instance:
Can one get PTSD via Twitter?
A couple of months ago there was some controversy when Melody Hensley, the Executive Director of the Center for Inquiry in Washington DC (secular and skeptic community), stated publicly that the abuse she has received online has left her with a form of PTSD. After her confession, people from 4chan, various men's rights groups and other spheres of the Internet went ballistic at her, calling her "attention whore," a "lying bitch", saying she was "disrespecting war veterans," etc etc. The response was utterly abhorrent.
A lot people are asking what we can do to ensure that these forms of harassment against women is minimised. Well, part of the solution lies simply in talking about the issue and not letting it remain part of the unspoken fabric of social life, which is what we're doing now - there's an old saying that "the best disinfectant is sunlight," and I think that holds true in this case. However, another part of the solution also lies in not supporting those who take part in this culture and actively perpetuate it. One example is Thunderf00t, who was a significant part of the pushback against Hensley - unfortunately, I still see his videos posted time and time again, particularly in the Anita Sarkeesian threads.
No i do not mean that at all. If you think online harassment is just mainly from geek males well you are wrong.
Sectorseven
Member
I don't know if it's even limited to geek stuff. I think it's really anything that appeals to the lowest common denominator. The comments on things like rap videos or body building videos will kill brain cells just as easily.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
I answered your first question in my post. And the second was addressed as well, but you're misconstruing my words.
The larger issue I referred to was anonymous online harassment towards women, which is what I focused on because that is what the article focused on. It seems like you've really misread what I wrote.
What I was referring to was harassment in the workplace compared to the extent of the online harassment detailed in the article. If women were routinely called these things every day or were berated hundreds of times a day, they would leave that place of work. There's a huge difference between what you're saying I said and what I actually said. I was comparing the online harassment that the article detailed to the stated subject of the article to show how they mismatched, and how that led to the piece being weaker for it.
If this sheer volume of harassment were a systemic issue across game development as a whole, then the women with those passions would organize projects and companies of their own.
And literally nothing I said was apologizing or excusing the harassment that does take place in the industry, nor excusing the status quo.
weemadarthur
Member
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I disagree with this statement, I am going to guess that Taylor Swift much rather be talked about in terms of her music than any kind of forum going crazy with oversexed comments and getting sexually harassed in twitter. But I think this is not the thread for that kind of discussion.
The Librarian
Banned
Where? Because I'm not seeing it. All I see are assumptions on your part.
Do you think this kind of thing - women decamping and forming their own parallel industries, societies etc - would also have happened in other industries where sexism is even more firmly entrenched?
The Librarian
Banned
It's ignorance on his part. Women have to work. They deal with it. Leaving their jobs would create more problems than it would solve for them.
not to keep rehashing the thread, but beyond what you say, I think how Taylor Swift would feel about it is not really the main reason I didn't like it. It's moot now, though, besada already dropped the mic on it.
Well, good luck with that! It's a poor word choice, I can tell you that much. Especially if real progress is the goal.
I could phrase it this way.
A.,) Do I have a choice of whether or not I am 'priveleged'?
B.) Will I be judged to any degree on my classification?
If A is no, and B is yes, you've got bigotry. If you're consciously judging me for something I don't have a choice in, I think that's what would get me defensive.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
II'm trying to understand this a little better.
Are you saying that if Women feel some type of way, they should just leave their place of work? And go where? Do what? What if that is their only source of income? They should just up and leave because they are being treated a certain way, when companies are suppose to have guidelines put in place if harassment is taking place in the workplace? Please elaborate more on this.
Next bolded, I don't think the answer to combat these issues is to isolate yourself more with other women who have been isolated. It's better to feel like you are able to work amongst other peers that are men, without feeling the need to create a sub group or organization to fix that need.
Let's not have a discussion over the word privileged. It detracts from serious discussion, because people willfully ignore what is being said, in order to take offense, so that they might use that offense as a weapon against others.
If you or anyone else would like to discuss the concept of privilege, feel free to start a thread, or PM me. Or go find one of the many Mumei posts that explain it.
So far I haven't found either example you provided particularly enlightening or convincing. Both appear to be cases where you feel a man was justified in complaining about how women choose to dress--or more to the point, demonstrative of a sense that complaints from men about how women choose to dress should be unassailable and not argued against. Personally I feel that the antidote to free speech is more speech. If you feel you have the right to complain, people should have the right to complain about your complaints.
And that gets to your point about feminists and what they "prevent" you from talking about. Most of the time I hear this complaint it's from dudes who use classic derailment tactics. Derivations of: "not all men," "I've never seen that," "I guess my friends have thicker skin," "men also have troubles," "not another thread about this," "explain the entirety of feminism to me from the beginning," etc. I think what people who rarely take part in discussions of this sort fail to realize is that passionate, outspoken people who care about these issues have been in these arguments hundreds if not thousands+ of times, and have largely heard all of these "counters" already, and are way beyond sick of retreading the same fruitless path. While that might not be your fault, perhaps it is one's fault if they enter what should be known to be a charged subject without really having a good grasp of what's being discussed beyond what their "gut" might say. And that's where I see a lot of potentially-well-meaning guys falling flat, having angry folks toss jargon at them because they said something that has bigger implications than they perhaps had the self-awareness to realize.
gutterboy44
Member
Jesus, the first page is a grave yard, and with good cause. This, "sexism cuts both ways" is the biggest sack of shit, me too excuse. It is like when white people try to compare how minorities are treated by cops with, "white people get harassed too". Not even the same ball park, not even the same fucking sport.
Not every who is spouting the same old ignorant nonsense is getting banned either,
but that is good because this discussion is important. That lengthy post getting quoted in this page proves the exact point being made in the article. By having any sort of assertive edge, emotion, hyperbole, Etc in her writing, she is being held to a standard that is not only not applied to the majority of out spoken males in the industry, but those very same , subjective, hyperbolic, laden with emotional male personalities are celebrated! There is not only undue added criticism to what women do in this industry, but their very complaints about this injustice get another dose of imbalanced scrutiny.
I consider GAF a good foundation for internet discussions due to solid ground rules and modding. it helped me dial down my bad online habits that regretfully carried out of my teen years and in to my twenties when I first joined GAF. Being respectful and empathetic is so important in life, no matter who, what, when or where.
Igniting the torches required to illuminate injustices sometimes needs a very intense flash to get things started. This idea that any criticism of men by women, who are being inarguably more harassed and abused at both the industry and hobby level, needs to be only carefully measured, purely objective and unwaveringly fair and balanced is grade-A bullshit.
You know what really diminishes the strength of her argument? The dismissal of it entirely by a moving goal-posts criteria that just some how magically seems to surface in pedants when the speaker, writer, developer, etc happens to be a woman. Maybe women can get to a point where some GAFers can patronizingly compliment them with, "she is so well spoken!"
Not every who is spouting the same old ignorant nonsense is getting banned either,
but that is good because this discussion is important. That lengthy post getting quoted in this page proves the exact point being made in the article. By having any sort of assertive edge, emotion, hyperbole, Etc in her writing, she is being held to a standard that is not only not applied to the majority of out spoken males in the industry, but those very same , subjective, hyperbolic, laden with emotional male personalities are celebrated! There is not only undue added criticism to what women do in this industry, but their very complaints about this injustice get another dose of imbalanced scrutiny.
I consider GAF a good foundation for internet discussions due to solid ground rules and modding. it helped me dial down my bad online habits that regretfully carried out of my teen years and in to my twenties when I first joined GAF. Being respectful and empathetic is so important in life, no matter who, what, when or where.
Igniting the torches required to illuminate injustices sometimes needs a very intense flash to get things started. This idea that any criticism of men by women, who are being inarguably more harassed and abused at both the industry and hobby level, needs to be only carefully measured, purely objective and unwaveringly fair and balanced is grade-A bullshit.
You know what really diminishes the strength of her argument? The dismissal of it entirely by a moving goal-posts criteria that just some how magically seems to surface in pedants when the speaker, writer, developer, etc happens to be a woman. Maybe women can get to a point where some GAFers can patronizingly compliment them with, "she is so well spoken!"
I just don't understand it. No matter how many links we show proving otherwise, no matter how many personal testimonies brave women around the world give to demonstrate precisely how out of hands things have gotten, no matter how frequently we produce the actual physical evidence that guarantees there can be no doubt about what is going on, no matter how many neoGAF topics spring up where 18 people have to be banned because they keep denying all these basic facts about discrimination/sexism in the workplace and in this industry, there's always another topic and another 18 posters lining up to get themselves banned to reenact this shit all over again.
I'm a cynical person. I know people are like this. But man, it is depressing. It's like a malignant cancer, and no matter how many times you think you just got it all out of your system, you miss a bit and it just spreads all over your body again. How so many men can dare to sit here and try to argue in some sense that they're the victims, that anyone is overplaying this issue? As if this shit isn't hard enough.
I'm a cynical person. I know people are like this. But man, it is depressing. It's like a malignant cancer, and no matter how many times you think you just got it all out of your system, you miss a bit and it just spreads all over your body again. How so many men can dare to sit here and try to argue in some sense that they're the victims, that anyone is overplaying this issue? As if this shit isn't hard enough.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You won't be "judged" for being privileged, except by people who have other issues anyway. The point of "privilege" and telling someone that their position is ignorant because of their privilege is to diagnose that ignorance. Its not "you are privileged therefore you can never understand me", its "you have demonstrated that you don't understand the problem because of your privileget"
I don't have my privilege thrown back at me by women (or other groups) just for existing, but if I display, again, ignorance about the issue at hand that clearly stems from not having to deal with that issue
EDIT: Just saw Besada's post. I'll stop now
What makes you state this with such certainty? It's completely irrational.
Over the course of history, women, racial minorities, religious minorities (eg: Jewish), etc. have been harassed, threatened, made to feel unwelcome in various industries, places, organizations, etc. And yet through collective perseverance and advocacy, we've become a more inclusive society.
One example is when American state colleges became desegregated and black students began attending colleges that were previously all white. They faced constant harassment and the threat of violence was very real. They didn't just shrug and go attend historically black colleges; they forged on and broke down those barriers.
Your argument "if harassment was really that bad women would just leave" doesn't make any sense.
You're not giving people enough credit here.
licktheenvelope
Member
I do allow for it, in fact I see the nature and behaviour as relating to each other but not just nature brought about by culture. The baviour certainly has to be addressed individually but I am interested, more, in how the culture is addressed.
Some are overzealous, some are not. I just feel if there's a push for equality both sides need to be equal. If i'm going to respect your boundaries (which I will regardless because that's how I am), I would hope you would respect mine.
Absolutely. Agreed. To be fair, I think Crimson has some valid points to make about pervasiveness only being presented anecdotally, but it's an opinion article, not a wide-spread empirical study.
This is exactly what it's like. Excellent point. We see this same exact behavior in every thread involving race -- a rush to explain why it's not really racism -- immediately followed by people saying "what about..." Anything at all to discuss anything but the actual topic.
I think it would actually help an article like this (that's focused on harassment of public figures in the industry) to start with male examples, not so much to focus on them, but to establish that "baseline" level of harassment that's faced by both genders from the internet idiot brigade. Then, having established that, you can then make the comparison to what the women are experiencing and putting up with to illuminate the inequality of experiences. Without that juxtaposition, I think a lot of people immediately jump to thinking that the women are simply experiencing a funhouse mirror version of the same sort of harassment that the men are experiencing, rather than things that are dogpiled on top of that same baseline experience.
BlastProcessing
Member
With what capital, exactly? You can't just say: this isn't a problem because if it was then women would change it. That completely ignores the resources available to exact change.
Your main critique seems to be that the article wasn't about what you thought it should be about. Ok, great, this thread is for discussing what it actually was about. It is a pretty simple small survey intended to point out the existence of an issue. If you agree that the issue is valid attacking the messenger accomplishes nothing. It simply shifts focus from the issue and undercuts the authority of the author.
And for what? At best it makes you look paternalistic, coming in to fix the message. At worst it looks like a complete derail. I am going to assume that you had the best intentions with your post, but you have a lot of specific criticisms of the author backed up with some general assumptions on your part and the combination reads awkwardly.
Edit: I swear, every time I write a long response in this thread the person is banned by the time I post.
I mean, it sounds alright on the surface, and I know you don't mean anything by it.
But think about how this looks, as well as how it sounds. You're telling a woman who is facing horrendous discrimination/sexism that in order to be able to have anything like a normal discussion about a specific subject that is impacting women all around the world, she has to first start her opinion piece with a whole section on how bad some men are treated too.
As I said, I understand you don't mean to be offensive by the suggestion. You're being genuine in your intent, I get it. But this is not a workable solution. Men can start articles any way they choose to get a point across, and I've never once in my life heard "well men should always start these types of articles with discussion about women first, so as we can get a good baseline about men." 'Cause such a thing wouldn't happen. For articles men write, it is assumed that a discussion can be had without such milquetoast head-patting, because men just get that sort of privilege by default. But you're saying women should have to add to their workload, write a whole new introduction to articles like this, just so that there can be equilibrium in a discussion where nothing is equal. This is not an equal problem. This is not a problem that needs to be contextualized. It's a problem where men need to be thrown head first into the water, slapped awake with the harsh reality of what women are going through, and then forced to change or be outcast from society.
licktheenvelope
Member
Hrm... see what I attribute this all is the move to 'equality' as best as can be had.
I agree women get the weaker end right now and (as I have admitted to finding out) there seem to be a lot more creepy guys out there than I thought (again I just don't see this). That behaviour needs to change, certainly.
I do agree this is seperate from the specific issue of poor treatment of women in the gaming industry, that specifically I would not venture to talk about as i'm not in that industry enough to comment.
I am also not a female, so I wont comment on their feelings and I do not dismiss them. However I feel as though men have their feelings dismissed on the matter of equality too often, that's all.