No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry

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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748748&highlight=

This un.

I do recommend reading a good chunk of that before coming back to say there is equality in harassment.

Just to clarify (before I read), I only stated that there's any equality in the EFFECTS of harassment....Not in the numbers affected.

EDIT: and I know they weren't your words, so it's not your place to respond...but:
One of it's goals, yes.
really? Why wouldn't the focus be on the heinous shit going on? Why would ANY of it be on gender? The message is only getting diluted!
 
The problem with articles like these is that, because they judge, critique and victimise collectively -- this is what *all* women have to put up with, and *all* men need to change -- is that you're not actively making a change: you're *hopeful* of the change simply as a product of those doing the abusing. That's like telling a friend at school that another kid in the school is bullying you, in the hope the bully will stop. That's all this is: as a group within the industry we acknowledge the abuse, but changing and shifting the culture won't come through a form of victimisation. It never has and it never will.

I'm not entirely against the idea of naming and shaming those that dish out such awful abuse, but victimisation is not a form of empowerment.

The industry needs empowered and empowering women. Writing an article about the sort of abuse you get from individuals, and then providing commentary that suggests a cultural shift as a collective, makes for an incapable approach to addressing the ways in which women are treated. It also completely invalidates the individual moral standing of men collectively, which is similarly as damaging for gendered approaches to fairness and respect as the abuse dished out by these despots. It's like fighting fire with fire.

Generally, whenever you try to address the issue of individuals moving beyond what is socially acceptable by treating those from the same group as a collective, you're not *actually* addressing the issue that causes these people to attack these women in this way. You're still creating a line that separates men and women, expecting everything to be miraculously fixed and for idiots to disappear from society.

As with racism the best way to attack it head on is to shame it, on an individual level wherever applicable. Telling me, "See! This is what I put up with!" while using people that post anonymously as a way to critique an entire group is an abhorrent way to address the issue, and it's an approach that continues to plague contemporary feminism.

Unfortunately, the industry lacks an empowered female voice of the likes of Sheryl Sandberg, someone that can rise above the abuse into a position of power.
 
I understand their frustration with the actions but I don't think I grasp the emotional stress.
Alright, but I think that's something more personal that you'll have to deal with. Still, in order to address this, searching for more stories and attempting to better understand these issues might help. Not trying to be preachy, and I apologize because even I'm aware that it's sounding that way.
I also don't really know what they are calling for other than a gradual shift in gaming culture, which is about right and what is happening.
And that gradual shift comes in part from speaking out against the problem. Perhaps the best way to embrace that is to be aware of what the problem is and, if not actively working towards fixing it, not being party to it.
 
EDIT: and I know they weren't your words, so it's not your place to respond...but:
really? Why wouldn't the focus be on the heinous shit going on? Why would ANY of it be on gender? The message is only getting diluted!

Part of the focus is on the heinous shit going on. Heinous shit sometimes focuses on gender, and so the article is about the times in which the heinous shit focuses on gender and how often that happens. The message of the article is not simply that heinous shit exists.
 
Just to clarify (before I read), I only stated that there's any equality in the EFFECTS of harassment....Not in the numbers affected.

Without specifying exactly what "effects" you're talking about it's hard to discern what your point is. If you mean "effects" as in "everyone feels bad when they encounter harassment," well, no shit, nobody said otherwise. If by "effects" you mean something like "everyone adjusts their decisions in exactly the same way when they encounter harassment," that's demonstrably false, as this thread has provided ample examples of women who say they will adjust where they go, what communities they frequent, or what public events they might go to, because they don't want to face the inevitable harassment, while there are few men who would have the same concerns about being harassed under the same circumstances.

Edit: Oh, well, that didn't take long.
 
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.
 
It does not help that we have some women who have no problem sexulizing themselves:

hjchTjh.gif


sexy_gifs_of_the_sensational_jessica_nigri_13.gif


I get it. It is all fun and there is nothing wrong with showing the goods. But this does not help their case at all, for people love to generalize.
 
fucking christ i may need a break from gamer culture, holy shit.

edit: thank god at least it was co-opted by a good post by zeldablue, i guess you really do love Majora's Mask though for sure :D
 
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.
Excellent post. Also, I just wanted to say that one could write an entire book about how Majora's Mask explores alienation and other-ization. The Zelda series can be deep, but Majora's Mask is like the Mariana Trench.
 
To the males: Are you trying to get better about it? Have you felt that way?

To "the males"? Really? I suppose we're all to blame by default because this is "a man's world" that extends to the bubble of interactive entertainment. Why do these threads always have to take on such a condescending tone in order to be heard?

I've never felt that way, and I can't even understand why this "debate" even exists, let alone imagine how it feels to endure that crap. If you encounter it in the workplace, you don't stand for it. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if you're a man or woman, whether you're dealing with a peer/subordinate/superior, if you feel your opinions and ideas aren't getting acknowledged then you figure out why and then confront the person about it once you're sure you have a decent understanding of the situation.

Maybe it's because during my time in the industry, I've been fortunate enough to get experience working for female bosses, working with female peers and taking suggestions from female employees who are more experienced in a certain field than I am. This might have given me the humility and common sense to not create mental gaps on account of gender (or any other social status marker, hopefully). If you've been in a studio surrounded by men, managed by men and teaching men throughout your whole career, then you're bound to form some bias. It's up to the individuals involved to identify and target this bias, and form an ideal solution that's relevant to their environment and development standard.

I'm keeping my opinion strictly confined to the workspace, as that's where the important stuff gets done, and that's where we're going to start seeing changes. It's better if we don't give jerkoffs on the internet or whatever the time of day. Don't engage in a meaningless debate with people you don't even know over a topic that is obviously far out of their reach. You're not their employer, their mother or their brother. They're not going to listen to you, so you may as well not acknowledge their existence.

The key to solving this problem is picking your battles and only engaging with those who you're sure are on the same level as you. Fanning flames and biting at every little trollbait comment or clickbait article is going to get us nowhere.
 
I was not stating that females are abnormal. I was stating that privileging males by way of equating the two detracts from the actual issue, which is female experience in the game industry and not the male experience. People need to stop constructing these as though everything first needs to be seen through a male lens.

Those day-to-day issues are not just experienced by public figures. The constant argument of there needing to be a juxtaposition to make the hatred palpable to you is troubling.
But you're trying to reach people in a male-dominated industry who supply (console) games to a male-dominated hobby. The neutral lens does not exist in the real world. Our points of view are inherently gendered. And here, you're trying to break through to those men.

Again, I'm speaking explicitly about public figures, the main thrust of the article. Many of the more general problems are much easier to not false-equivocate in a vacuum in ways this one is not. Besada's terminology is much better for getting at what I was trying to say- establishing the "non-gendered harassment" baseline and showing that the gendered harassment received by the females is not actually just the non-gendered harassment run through a gendered prism, but is in actuality a large amount of additional gendered harassment on top of the non-gendered harassment.

I don't need that juxtaposition. But I believe others very much do.
 
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.

Never even thought about Majora's Mask like this.

Very interesting, and a great post. Hopefully, this will allow the message to resonate with people a little more than some of the usual arguments that people refuse to listen to.
 
But you're trying to reach people in a male-dominated industry who supply (console) games to a male-dominated hobby. The neutral lens does not exist in the real world. Our points of view are inherently gendered. And here, you're trying to break through to those men.

Again, I'm speaking explicitly about public figures, the main thrust of the article. Many of the more general problems are much easier to not false-equivocate in a vacuum in ways this one is not. Besada's terminology is much better for getting at what I was trying to say- establishing the "non-gendered harassment" baseline and showing that the gendered harassment received by the females is not actually just the non-gendered harassment run through a gendered prism, but is in actuality a large amount of additional gendered harassment on top of the non-gendered harassment.

I don't need that juxtaposition. But I believe others very much do.
Well, 1) if you don't believe you need it, why do you believe others do? and 2) it seems kind of presumptive to assume that the article is necessarily for men. I am aware that there is no gender-neutral establishment, but I do believe that people have the ability to see female perspective, to see gendered establishment, and make judgments on it. I do not believe a gender needs to be catered to in order for them to understand the plight of others (including other genders, races, religions, etc.). It seems condescending to suggest such a thing is necessary.

Also, Frontline recently did a great video that shows, and to a certain degree explains, privilege from a racial and class background. US primarily.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365289176/
Tim Wise also talks a lot about white privilege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY
 
Well, 1) if you don't believe you need it, why do you believe others do? and 2) it seems kind of presumptive to assume that the article is necessarily for men. I am aware that there is no gender-neutral establishment, but I do believe that people have the ability to see female perspective, to see gendered establishment, and make judgments on it. I do not believe a gender needs to be catered to in order for them to understand the plight of others (including other genders, races, religions, etc.). It seems condescending to suggest such a thing is necessary.

Also, Frontline recently did a great video that shows, and to a certain degree explains, privilege from a racial and class background. US primarily.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365289176/
Tim Wise also talks a lot about white privilege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY
I'm going to PM the response I just wrote up- it's not really a privilege issue that I'm worried about, it's a communications one. (There's a personal anecdote I'm not really willing to put out on the internet in there.)
 
I'm going to PM the response I just wrote up- it's not really a privilege issue that I'm worried about, it's a communications one. (There's a personal anecdote I'm not really willing to put out on the internet in there.)
As for being a communication issue... I guess? I don't really see it.

The latter half of that response (the frontline/tim wise videos) was more a general "these are interesting" than directed at anyone in particular.
 
Some of you sure love to account suicide, this is a real problem and it should be talked and given more attention.

This is a serious problem that impacts the life of real people and it's totally unfair than women are treated like shit just because they are women. I can't imagine how scared I'd feel about getting rape treats and being stalked by creeps that have nothing better to do.

I don't think men have much to contribute in the discussion of women in harassment. At least in terms of relatability. It would be like saying if you're white you should contribute to how to deal with say racism towards blacks, when you really don't understand/comprehend how that could be.

Most men I see usually employ victim shaming tactics when it comes to women being harassed. "She asked for it, why did she say those things". In terms of gaming though women deal with this as well as minorities, specifically black/brown.

We may not fully understand, but we can empathize and try our best to not be assholes about it.

Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.

I love this post.
 
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.

I have a bookmark tab that I add amazing GAF posts to, this post just got added and my appreciation of the best Zelda game has gone up even further.
 
It seems insane to me that guys are posting in this thread complaining that there aren't more male protagonists in the article about harassment women in gaming face.

These guys feel such entitlement that men not being the subject of the article is viewed as combative and dangerously exclusionary.
 
The problem with articles like these is that, because they judge, critique and victimise collectively -- this is what *all* women have to put up with, and *all* men need to change -- is that you're not actively making a change: you're *hopeful* of the change simply as a product of those doing the abusing. That's like telling a friend at school that another kid in the school is bullying you, in the hope the bully will stop. That's all this is: as a group within the industry we acknowledge the abuse, but changing and shifting the culture won't come through a form of victimisation. It never has and it never will.

I'm not entirely against the idea of naming and shaming those that dish out such awful abuse, but victimisation is not a form of empowerment.

The industry needs empowered and empowering women. Writing an article about the sort of abuse you get from individuals, and then providing commentary that suggests a cultural shift as a collective, makes for an incapable approach to addressing the ways in which women are treated. It also completely invalidates the individual moral standing of men collectively, which is similarly as damaging for gendered approaches to fairness and respect as the abuse dished out by these despots. It's like fighting fire with fire.

Generally, whenever you try to address the issue of individuals moving beyond what is socially acceptable by treating those from the same group as a collective, you're not *actually* addressing the issue that causes these people to attack these women in this way. You're still creating a line that separates men and women, expecting everything to be miraculously fixed and for idiots to disappear from society.

As with racism the best way to attack it head on is to shame it, on an individual level wherever applicable. Telling me, "See! This is what I put up with!" while using people that post anonymously as a way to critique an entire group is an abhorrent way to address the issue, and it's an approach that continues to plague contemporary feminism.

Unfortunately, the industry lacks an empowered female voice of the likes of Sheryl Sandberg, someone that can rise above the abuse into a position of power.
It doesn't judge all men at all. It judges the behavior that is so common. That behavior happens to come from men (vast majority at least) but it doesn't judge the ones who don't do it. I'm not even sure what you're talking about with victimisation.

Second, no it's not at all the same as a bullied kid in school telling his friend about it. This is about raising awareness to the general public of the issue, and it really needs to be done. It's important that people speak up of their experiences. When people don't speak up (which is understandable because it's not an easy thing to do and when you do it you often get tons of unnecessary shit for it) of such experiences, nothing at all changes.

edit:
And yes, absolutely when individuals are caught doing this shit, they should be called out. This does happen every now and then, for example with David Jaffe.
Often it's not easy however. In GDC either this year or last year there was a woman talking about sexual discrimination in the industry (I read a local games magazine article about it but I don't have it here with me at the moment and I can't remember who it was). She told how when she was a bit younger she had met some well known and respected industry veteran (man). She had talked with him about games and development, but then all of a sudden he had taken his wee-wee out and showed it to her. She was like wtf but the situation was so incredibly surreal that she was naturally so confused and stunned that she just tried to ignore it and kept talking with him about the things she had been talking about, instead of calling him out right there.
Who was this man? That she didn't want to say in her presentation. She had no evidence anymore and if she had named him, it's very, very likely she would've got tons of shit for that and all kind of "no way I don't believe that", "you're just trying to attack him" etc etc and even direct attacks against herself.

As calling out individuals often isn't possible, it's extremely important that the general behavior gets called out.

Part of the problem you're going to run into with coming at it like this is that you will be called part of the problem for viewing a female in a sexual manner that dresses like that... trust me that argument is not pretty.

It's why I have a problem with the idea of 'rape culture' etc. The argument that will come is that these women should be able to wear whatever they want, clothing or not, scantily clad or not. If you make the argument "she's wearing those clothes for attention" you get lumped into the 'rape culture.'

(I don't watch any twitch stream like this)
I'm not sure if you saw my last reply to your post regarding a similar thing that you posted earlier:

Really, no offense, but you're part of the problem when you'd say that and when you think that.

Yes, it's possible that a woman wearing something is wearing it to get attention, but it's entirely possible she just wanted to wear it for whatever other reason (for example for a reason as simple as being used to it from her childhood - many children use quite revealing clothes and naturally they don't think about how much it reveals). Not one single person should ever have to think like "if I wear this, will everyone think I'm just looking for attention?".

But unfortunately, because your way of thinking is so common, so many women have to think about it daily. "Oh this shows my upper chest slightly, is that bad?" "This shows my thighs a little, is it too much?" "Will people ogle my boobs when I wear this shirt even though it covers them completely?"
Seriously, a woman doesn't even have to wear a thing that shows much skin at all to be often ogled at and have people thinking she's trying to get attention.

And yes, women should be able to wear practically anything they want without people thinking she's doing it for attention. That doesn't mean some things aren't appropriate, such as wearing only your underwear when going out or a very short miniskirt in a professional work environment.

edit: Simply viewing a woman dressing in a way that is attractive to you sexually is not a problem. It is a problem however if you think she's necessarily doing it for attention. She simply might like the dress for example.
 
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.

OMG what an amazing post. I am gonna quote it widely in future arguments.
 
It does not help that we have some women who have no problem sexulizing themselves:

I see this person is gone, but I still wanted to just clarify that sexualizing yourself does not mean you deserve to be harassed or otherwise treated poorly. This sounds like the "she was asking for it" defense.
 
I'm sure there are some well reasoned arguments in this thread, however one thing stuck out to me - is there anyone who actually believes those "myths"? I mean myths suggest it's some widely accepted belief about a woman's role/experience in gaming.
 
I like how so many of these threads ends up being, "What about us men?!"
When you are used to male privileged any changes to it is a threat to their existence.

A significant percentage of people like the ability to empathize with others, gamers are no exception to that rule.

That's we should keep bashing it in their face until they have no choice but to face it or hide in shame.
 
When you are used to male privileged any changes to it is a threat to their existence.

A significant percentage of people like the ability to empathize with others, gamers are no exception to that rule.

That's we should keep bashing it in their face until they have no choice but to face it or hide in shame.

I think it's far more likely that people will just move on to something else before they face it or hide in shame, but that's just my opinion.
 
I'm sure there are some well reasoned arguments in this thread, however one thing stuck out to me - is there anyone who actually believes those "myths"? I mean myths suggest it's some widely accepted belief about a woman's role/experience in gaming.

Based on many of the replies in this thread, at least some of those myths are believed by a a number of people, at least here on NeoGAF. The idea that harassment is universal in the industry and women are either just extra sensitive to it or are unaware of men getting the same treatment, has been expressed over and over again. Also, the idea that people just need to grow thicker skin or ignore the harassment because it's ultimately harmless idle threats made mostly by children is another argument I've seen quite a bit in threads like this.
 
The pornographic fanfic part is some next level creepy.

What woman in the industry hasn't received a pornographic fanfic emailed to her work email address that had creepily specific details? I'm serious. I've had one too. The kind of nasty shit you get/get written to or about you is appalling.
 
I can't even begin to express my opinion on this subject because I think that's such a complicated issue I think I would lose faith in what I expect from people.
I'll just say that this post is awesome.
Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.
 
Some of those comments/stories are so gross that it's hard to believe that they're real.
That fanfiction shit actually made me feel sick... that is vile on a whole new level.
 
What in the actual fuck is wrong with people...?

I honestly have no idea. And it truly is disproportionately directed at women. None of the guys in the office have ever been subject to harassment that I know of, while EVERY SINGLE woman has either been groped at E3, had ass pics sneakily taken of them, received shitty emails, been subject to harassing comments online, had sexual comments on interviews, etc.



Haha. I'll never get the imagery out of my head... But ah! Have men ever done a PlayStationBlog where they were live responding to comments and been interrupted by someone asking them to confirm an entire thread online dedicated to someone's fantasy sexcapades with them? :)


Well, H.Pro, that's all well and good but what about the men?

I know. I'm sure my male coworkers just haven't told me about all the times they've been groped or harassed or stalked or...
 
It is a serious problem, a proper Serious Problem, and I can't believe there's anyone who genuinely doubts that 90%+ of this wild vitriol is being spewed at women. Whether or not it's affecting their employment chances or whatnot (and it's perfectly plausible that it does, indirectly), the point is that no one should have to live or work to a constant background noise of abuse.

It's not really a gaming industry exclusive issue, obviously, but I suppose we're considering it in that context, where there are already far too few women working in the industry to begin with, and where the angry woman-hating nerd stereotype probably makes a lot of us defensive about this kind of topic.

But I really don't know how you fix this, not in the slightest. Policing this amount of anonymous comments online, often across international jurisdictions just isn't feasible for already overworked police forces, and giving the police that power scares the shit out of me in the first place.

Education won't solve anything here either, as everyone is told to be nice to women and not to bully others at pretty much all stages of their lives and it appears to make no difference. Because this isn't a rational behavior, this abuse. It's an emotional behavior, driven by feelings of jealousy, self-loathing, irrational hatred or sometimes simply crushing boredom. You can't just educate those emotions away any more than you can other forms of crime.

What to do? I have no idea, I really don't, but I look forward to the day that someone cracks this code.

Well okay, maybe google or whoever could develop an abusive comment filter that automatically deletes abuse? Kind of like a spam filter? So you'd just see 'you received 569 abusive emails/comments today. Delete?' That would be better than having to go through them yourself and getting upset. The number would be bearable in and of itself, it's the bloody content of the messages that are upsetting.

EDIT: Some of the fanfic stuff reminds me of being in high school. The doors of the bathroom stalls filled up with this violent rape fantasy fanfic about our music teacher. Reaction among the guys was like 'who is the fucking wacko doing this?' but we thought it was pretty funny all the same, just the silliness of it. I certainly thought it was a joke made in bad taste. Of course it was found by a teacher who needed to use the students toilets one day and all hell broke loose. The teacher involved was shattered, and left her job. I remember seeing her coming out of a meeting crying. Sweetest fucking teacher you could ever have, literally cared about nothing more than her students, and repaid with this. And I'll be honest I just couldn't see the harm it would do until it was done. And then I felt really, really sick for a long time. Anyway once that happened enough people felt so bad that the guy's name got through to the head and he was found and expelled. Straight A student, prefect, all that jazz. Crazy.

They're just words, but they do more damage than you might think.
 
I honestly have no idea. And it truly is disproportionately directed at women. None of the guys in the office have ever been subject to harassment that I know of, while EVERY SINGLE woman has either been groped at E3, had ass pics sneakily taken of them, received shitty emails, been subject to harassing comments online, had sexual comments on interviews, etc.
I'll be living in LA by August. I plan on going to E3 next year.

:|
 
Haha. I'll never get the imagery out of my head... But ah! Have men ever done a PlayStationBlog where they were live responding to comments and been interrupted by someone asking them to confirm an entire thread online dedicated to someone's fantasy sexcapades with them? :)
"A guy on Gamefaqs has been bragging he slept with you". I stopped there. Jesus fucking Christ. You all have thicker skin than I do. I honestly don't know how I'd deal with that shit.
 
I
Education won't solve anything here either, as everyone is told to be nice to women and not to bully others at pretty much all stages of their lives and it appears to make no difference. Because this isn't a rational behavior, this abuse. It's an emotional behavior, driven by feelings of jealousy, self-loathing, irrational hatred or sometimes simply crushing boredom. You can't just educate those emotions away any more than you can other forms of crime.

Education is undoubtably the key. Being told and being edicatied are very different things, and some people require special measures.

You can certainly educated emotions away, but the person has to be willing to accept that the edication is required and for the educator to be styling the teaching to suit.

It's complex, it's huge, but it is something we can all contribute to.
 
What's this Dragon's Dogma hubbub about? I missed it when it was the hot story I think.
 
Education is undoubtably the key. Being told and being edicatied are very different things, and some people require special measures.

You can certainly educated emotions away, but the person has to be willing to accept that the edication is required and for the educator to be styling the teaching to suit.

It's complex, it's huge, but it is something we can all contribute to.

This is precisely why education doesn't always work. You just can't force it on people. People have to be ready to listen. Unless you plan to go full clockwork orange on them, I suppose.
 
This is precisely why education doesn't always work. You just can't force it on people. People have to be ready to listen. Unless you plan to go full clockwork orange on them, I suppose.

It's literally the only way.

Everything else is a temporary fix or a deflection.

Which is why I think we'll never be able to get rid it. Human nature will always imclude these dark parts.

But, we can all do out best to educate or lead by example.
 
I'll be living in LA by August. I plan on going to E3 next year.

:|

It's not all bad, but it is consistent when you work it, it seems. This E3 was particularly frustrating because we had these lovely ladies handing out tissues for one of the games and they got asked for an interview. Apparently the guy immediately launched in with questions like, "Do you hate boobs? Do you think there are too many boobs in games? Why do women hate boobs in video games?"

He also asked them to do a "Chun-Li" kick for the camera. They're in maid outfits with skirts, mind you. I felt so terrible that I didn't know until after because it was my job this E3 to manage the booth and make sure shitty stuff like this didn't happen.


"A guy on Gamefaqs has been bragging he slept with you". I stopped there. Jesus fucking Christ. You all have thicker skin than I do. I honestly don't know how I'd deal with that shit.

Always a joy to have a Q&A interrupted like that. I was actually alerted by another Gaffer about the whole thing right around when that guy commented. So many ridiculous details. Apparently I made him eggo waffles the day after he had me. :P
 
It's not all bad, but it is consistent when you work it, it seems. This E3 was particularly frustrating because we had these lovely ladies handing out tissues for one of the games and they got asked for an interview. Apparently the guy immediately launched in with questions like, "Do you hate boobs? Do you think there are too many boobs in games? Why do women hate boobs in video games?"

He also asked them to do a "Chun-Li" kick for the camera. They're in maid outfits with skirts, mind you. I felt so terrible that I didn't know until after because it was my job this E3 to manage the booth and make sure shitty stuff like this didn't happen.
If somebody gropes me at E3 and I know who it is I will call them out on it.
 
The "game industry" is such an embarrassment. Basically, when you get a lot of young guys together in a group, without their moms, sisters and girlfriends to correct them, stuff goes downhill real fast. I'm not even shocked anymore by this latest report.

Oh wait, maybe I am:

I have a guy who’s writing fan fiction starring me and him. It’s a pornographic fanfic, and he's on chapter 6.

*shudder*
 
I don't know if people on the thread have brought this up, but it's interesting that most people are completely ignoring the blatant racism in the initial quote of the article in favor of focusing on sexism.

There's an article recently posted on Gamasutra that makes a pretty good point about this:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethSampat/20140722/221635/The_Story_These_Stories_Arent_Telling.php

Notice how both Hispanic men and Women are in the lowest possible brackets there. There's a 5% difference between men and women, with women being the lowest one.

The article in the OP does a good job of getting you to feel for the women in these stories. But it completely fails to address the fact that the insult they used was only demeaning because of the connotation of the word, as if skin color somehow implies greater human worth if you're white vs black or hispanic.

All these articles about women in they game industry are fine, but based on these numbers, it seems clear to me that they are far from being the only victims here, and yet we hear very little about the host of race/religious issues present in the game industry and game culture.

My thoughts: Women in games is the hot issue right now. But I believe that the way it's being sold as if "everything else is good for everyone except women" by some people is a bad thing. Women have a strong voice currently in the media it seems, or at least much stronger than before which is a good thing. We need more voices speaking about racial issues in the industry however, since even I, a Hispanic developer, didn't really know just how bad things are in comparison.


The one good thing about being indie is being sheltered from these issues to an extent. Though I do start to wonder about my day job.
 
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