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[H.Protagonist]

EDIT: Some of the fanfic stuff reminds me of being in high school. The doors of the bathroom stalls filled up with this violent rape fantasy fanfic about our music teacher. Reaction among the guys was like 'who is the fucking wacko doing this?' but we thought it was pretty funny all the same, just the silliness of it. I certainly thought it was a joke made in bad taste. Of course it was found by a teacher who needed to use the students toilets one day and all hell broke loose. The teacher involved was shattered, and left her job. I remember seeing her coming out of a meeting crying. Sweetest fucking teacher you could ever have, literally cared about nothing more than her students, and repaid with this. And I'll be honest I just couldn't see the harm it would do until it was done. And then I felt really, really sick for a long time. Anyway once that happened enough people felt so bad that the guy's name got through to the head and he was found and expelled. Straight A student, prefect, all that jazz. Crazy.

They're just words, but they do more damage than you might think.

The scary part about the fanfic thing, and like with the guy knowing the address in the first threat, is that sometimes they have details they shouldn't know. It's not just a fantasy or fucked up email or just 'words' anymore. It's dangerous and frightening. For example, the fanfic I got knew what perfume I wore. The perfume I wore during that time I'd brought with me when I moved and I rarely wore it. It wasn't super common either. That's scary as shit.

If somebody gropes me at E3 and I know who it is I will call them out on it.

Good on ya. Calling it out when it happens is important, and security will back you up (as will plenty of others). Don't stress about it, though. There are lots of awesome people, and I think you'll have a great time.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

Always a joy to have a Q&A interrupted like that. I was actually alerted by another Gaffer about the whole thing right around when that guy commented. So many ridiculous details. Apparently I made him eggo waffles the day after he had me.

The worse thing about situations like these is that no matter how you respond, some people will have end up with ridiculous reactions.

If you choose to ignore the question, you'll get that one person who would go "welp silence means it could have happened. She just doesn't want to acknowledge it." If you choose to respond in an angry manner someone out there will say you're a bitch and that should be happy or feel complimented that someone bothered to think of a sexual fantasy about you, despite you never even asking for it in the first place. When you use humour, like you did with this case, someone will blame you for not speaking up during the incident and complaining about it later. "Why didn't you speak out there and then and only complain now, you attention grabber."

There's just no winning for women in many of these incidents.

The scary part about the fanfic thing, and like with the guy knowing the address in the first threat, is that sometimes they have details they shouldn't know. It's not just a fantasy or fucked up email or just 'words' anymore. It's dangerous and frightening. For example, the fanfic I got knew what perfume I wore. The perfume I wore during that time I'd brought with me when I moved and I rarely wore it. It wasn't super common either. That's scary as shit.

That's super creepy.

 

[Jobbs]

Good on ya. Calling it out when it happens is important, and security will back you up (as will plenty of others). Don't stress about it, though. There are lots of awesome people, and I think you'll have a great time.

What is the ideal way for a guy who witnesses something like this happen to respond?

 

[RicoTheMad]

What is the ideal way for a guy who witnesses something like this happen to respond?

I'd say confronting the guy or calling security over is probably the decent thing to do. Hopefully there's a zero tolerance policy and they get banned from the event after something like that happens.

 

[The Librarian]

We need more voices speaking about racial issues in the industry however, since even I, a Hispanic developer, didn't really know just how bad things are in comparison.

Hey there. This is a thread about the issues women facing in the gaming industry. Just letting you know it's incredibly rude to come into the thread and basically say, "Well, yeah, other people have problems too!"

There's nothing preventing you from creating a thread about racism in the gaming industry. Stop trying to divert discussion away from the topic of THIS thread.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Damn, Eggos? That must've been some good D.

Seriously though, that's so ridiculous and gross.

Haha. No shit, right? The level of detail this guy went into about our fake night was hilarious. I guess he thought putting extra touches on it would sell it to his audience better.

The worse thing about situations like these is that no matter how you respond, some people will have end up with ridiculous reactions.

If you choose to ignore the question, you'll get that one person who would go "welp silence means it could have happened. She just doesn't want to acknowledge it." If you choose to respond in an angry manner someone out there will say you're a bitch and that should be happy or feel complimented that someone bothered to think of a sexual fantasy about you, despite you never even asking for it in the first place. When you use humour, like you did with this case, someone will blame you for not speaking up during the incident and complaining about it later. "Why didn't you speak out there and then and only complain now, you attention grabber."

There's just no winning for women in many of these incidents.



That's super creepy.

Exactly. You can't win. If I said nothing and skipped over his comment, they'd take it as affirmation somehow. If I'd responded angrily, they'd say I was pissed because I'd been exposed to the internet. Humor is one way I've found that lets me get on with my job and not invite more harassment, but then I fall into the trap, as you said, of "why didn't you report it!" Funny, because reporting it nets you the "women are too sensitive!" result. It is incredibly frustrating.

And, yeah. Either that guy was super lucky guessing my brand or he was close enough to smell it on me. Think about that.

What is the ideal way for a guy who witnesses something like this happen to respond?

Well, groping doesn't tend to happen ideally (ha), aka in a way that lets you grab your attacker's wrist and definitively declare him the culprit (they tend to touch and melt into the crowd or pretend you're overreacting to a harmless boob touch mistake), but if you do see someone uncomfortable or pointing out this kind of situation, just standing by him/her and asking if they need any help is good. This makes them feel more secure and it also provides another pair of eyes as a witness. Often times when it happens you're left feeling kind of insane and alone. No one saw anything, no one acknowledged the incident, no one else got a look at the guy... Just being on hand for support, witness, back-up, to offer to get security, etc. is helpful, in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Well for some stupid reason I looked at reddit/r/neogaf and my god. I can't imagine this kind of shit

 

[ReignofSparrows]

I don't know if people on the thread have brought this up, but it's interesting that most people are completely ignoring the blatant racism in the initial quote of the article in favor of focusing on sexism.

It's really not that interesting. The entire article is about the harassment women face in the industry, so I'm sure you can understand the focus of the thread has mirrored that fact.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I don't know if people on the thread have brought this up, but it's interesting that most people are completely ignoring the blatant racism in the initial quote of the article in favor of focusing on sexism.

There's an article recently posted on Gamasutra that makes a pretty good point about this:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethSampat/20140722/221635/The_Story_These_Stories_Arent_Telling.php

Notice how both Hispanic men and Women are in the lowest possible brackets there. There's a 5% difference between men and women, with women being the lowest one.

The article in the OP does a good job of getting you to feel for the women in these stories. But it completely fails to address the fact that the insult they used was only demeaning because of the connotation of the word, as if skin color somehow implies greater human worth if you're white vs black or hispanic.

All these articles about women in they game industry are fine, but based on these numbers, it seems clear to me that they are far from being the only victims here, and yet we hear very little about the host of race/religious issues present in the game industry and game culture.

My thoughts: Women in games is the hot issue right now. But I believe that the way it's being sold as if "everything else is good for everyone except women" by some people is a bad thing. Women have a strong voice currently in the media it seems, or at least much stronger than before which is a good thing. We need more voices speaking about racial issues in the industry however, since even I, a Hispanic developer, didn't really know just how bad things are in comparison.


The one good thing about being indie is being sheltered from these issues to an extent. Though I do start to wonder about my day job.

I agree, I was disappointed with the lack of discussion about that.

 

[antigoon]

I just read this entire thread, and while it's disappointing that there seem to be more lengthy diatribes by men feeling left out the deeper the thread goes, I'm really, truly impressed by the work the mods are doing and the example they are setting for everyone here on the forum. Especially coming from browsing reddit most of the time. People drove that "faith in humanity lost" meme into the ground, but I swear every day on that site makes me a little wearier about people in general.

 

[Krejlooc]

Hey there. This is a thread about the issues women facing in the gaming industry. Just letting you know it's incredibly rude to come into the thread and basically say, "Well, yeah, other people have problems too!"

There's nothing preventing you from creating a thread about racism in the gaming industry. Stop trying to divert discussion away from the topic of THIS thread.

I agree with your post, but just wanted to point out:

Junior Member

There indeed is something stopping him from creating said thread

 

[partyphone]

I agree, I was disappointed with the lack of discussion about that.

It's not the point of the article or the thread and doesn't really add the this specific conversation. Minority groups do face a lot of problems in the game industry and there have been a lot of threads about the topic.

I understand the impulse to not want to address the problem of sexism. It's a had problem with no good answers and as a straight white male I will never experience this sort of harassment. But it's important that we talk about this and keep talking about it.

 

[DigitalRicket]

Hmm,

When it comes to privilege, that is a discussion on things you are unaware of or take for granted.

For instance you might not wake up everyday feeling thankful for your ability to walk, and hear, breath, talk or see.

But if your sight was suddenly taken from you, or your life was given a timer after a diagnosis, you'd probably feel an incredible amount of loss for something you took for granted. You were blind to the privilege you had of being able to see or live.

"Hearing privilege" is something I became more aware of when I learned more about the deaf community. I never thought about how my privilege of being able to hear, casted the deaf into alienation. By simply not putting subtitles on, I was being blind to my privilege and isolating a group of people who wished to be apart of my world.

Now...

In Majora's Mask, Link wakes up one day and is turned into another race. And has to deal with people perceiving him differently and isolating him. His privilege of being more or less, normal was taken away. (No way, no scrubs!) His life was also put on a three day timer to make him realize how important just being alive is.

All of that disempowerment was meant to make Link aware of the privilege he had of being alive and of being socially, and by extension racially, "normal." We are blind to these things until they are taken away from us.

Skull Kid forced Link to feel what it was like to be rejected by the majority of the world. Forced Link to see what it felt like to be ignored and neglected as Skullkid was by a society that showed zero empathy towards him.

Ahem, I think that was an extremely powerful aspect of Majora's Mask that shed some light on becoming "The Other."

Basically, I'm saying empathy is going to be hard if you can't humanize and relate to people you've disassociated yourself from.

Awareness and SELF-awareness is the only way to fix the problem.

This may be one of the best comments I've ever read on this board.

 

[Arkaerial]

Really, what the hell is wrong with some people in this world?

Joking banter is one thing and I usually only do that with my friends and family when playing games (yeah my sister and some of my friends wives play games).

 

[Sadist]

Haha. I'll never get the imagery out of my head... But ah! Have men ever done a PlayStationBlog where they were live responding to comments and been interrupted by someone asking them to confirm an entire thread online dedicated to someone's fantasy sexcapades with them?

I, uh, wow, what?

I just don't understand this. Really. I don't. Is decency dead? I'd freaking kick myself of I would ask these type of questions. Revolting. Respect if you can brush this these kind of things of with humor.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

Well yes, we in the medical care community are also faced with (senior) male doctors making sexist remarks or sexual advances to young aspiring/in training female doctors and nurses. We now have training and education on these subjects and how to deal with these harassments. Not only can harassment come from your colleagues and superiors, but also your patients.

Back to videogame development, there probably aren't trainings like that in small studios and development teams. Maybe the bigger publishers and companies have specific HR tests or training for it, as I understood how things in america goes.

Harrasment is terrible and I encourage and men, predominantly men, to call out any sexist remark or harrasment if you witness one. But don't make a scene out of it, like going fist to fist or something. Women should also be not afraid to call out anyone on the spot. I know it's easier said than done, if it's your colleague you work with or a superior.

 

[RicoTheMad]

Hey there. This is a thread about the issues women facing in the gaming industry. Just letting you know it's incredibly rude to come into the thread and basically say, "Well, yeah, other people have problems too!"

There's nothing preventing you from creating a thread about racism in the gaming industry. Stop trying to divert discussion away from the topic of THIS thread.

Cool your jets. It's a relevant discussion, it's even directly quoting the article in the OP. Did you miss the fact that Hispanic Women are also part of that discussion/statistics?

It's unpleasantly ironic you want to dismiss other's people's plights because you want your own soapbox.

PS: As you can see in my title, I am a Junior Member which means I *can't* make my own thread.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Yesterday i read a news story about 3 teens who beat some homeless people to death. They interviewed a psychologist who said that the most dangerous person in the world is a group of teenage boys. Because their hormones develop faster than their brains. And when you put them in a group, you add in to the mix this sense of camaraderie.

I feel like this is kind of the same thing, except that the group in this case is basically all male gamers. Or at least the bad ones see the entire male gaming population as their comrades in all this.

I think anonymity on the Internet is a double edged sword. It can be used for both good and bad. Lately I've started to question whether the good really does outweigh the bad, and I'm not entirely convinced.

 

[The Librarian]

Cool your jets. It's a relevant discussion, it's even directly quoting the article in the OP. Did you miss the fact that Hispanic Women are also part of that discussion/statistics?

It's unpleasantly ironic you want to dismiss other's people's plights because you want your own soapbox.

PS: As you can see in my title, I am a Junior Member which means I *can't* make my own thread.

Really?

I'd also add that it's incredibly rude when someone is trying to get help with a problem for you to say "I've had worse problems" and act like you're the victim because someone else brought up a problem they're having. Absolutely no one is telling you not to start a discussion about the ways in which you were bullied or discriminated against or harassed based on class or ethnicity or your speech issues (in fact, disability studies has a massive overlap with gender studies in the academic world). What people are telling you is that your experience being hurt shouldn't be telling you to devalue other people being hurt, it should be telling you to help them build a better world.

 

[JDPoZ]

Hmmm... what's this? Oh! Polygon. That means it will be an interesting and well thought article instead of Kotaku drivvle / click-bait!

*click*

... "Anita Sarkeesian once reblogged a Tumblr post of mine and...

Goddamnit...

*closes tab*

Mentioning Sarkeesian very quickly lets me know your legitimacy in the fight for equality in the realm of games.

Try instead quoting something well thought out and written along the lines of something like this featured article on GamaSutra and Game Career Guide written as part of a thesis by a friend of mine instead next time and maybe I won't roll my eyes at it.

Good day.

 

[zeldablue]

I'm blushing over the Zelda praise...But really! Majora's Mask is so freakin' good about this topic.

I don't know if people on the thread have brought this up, but it's interesting that most people are completely ignoring the blatant racism in the initial quote of the article in favor of focusing on sexism.

There's an article recently posted on Gamasutra that makes a pretty good point about this:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethSampat/20140722/221635/The_Story_These_Stories_Arent_Telling.php

Notice how both Hispanic men and Women are in the lowest possible brackets there. There's a 5% difference between men and women, with women being the lowest one.

The article in the OP does a good job of getting you to feel for the women in these stories. But it completely fails to address the fact that the insult they used was only demeaning because of the connotation of the word, as if skin color somehow implies greater human worth if you're white vs black or hispanic.

All these articles about women in they game industry are fine, but based on these numbers, it seems clear to me that they are far from being the only victims here, and yet we hear very little about the host of race/religious issues present in the game industry and game culture.

My thoughts: Women in games is the hot issue right now. But I believe that the way it's being sold as if "everything else is good for everyone except women" by some people is a bad thing. Women have a strong voice currently in the media it seems, or at least much stronger than before which is a good thing. We need more voices speaking about racial issues in the industry however, since even I, a Hispanic developer, didn't really know just how bad things are in comparison.


The one good thing about being indie is being sheltered from these issues to an extent. Though I do start to wonder about my day job.

While I believe both of those things are really important...

I feel as though people have a good understanding and awareness for racism. When someone drives by and yells racial slurs at me...I'm well aware and they're well aware of what they are doing and saying. Nobody is going to run over and defend racial slurs and demeaning comments on race.

However, when people cat-call me or treat me as inferior because of my sex...It's something they are unaware of. It is beyond their understanding and comprehension. And it's rather hard to explain why girls and women find it demeaning without facing a lot of trouble.

I think I'm much more offended by racial slurs, but I'm also more aware of them. If someone calls me the N word, I can easily rationalize that that person is partly "bad" or doing something socially unacceptable. Misogyny is actually much harder to notice because it is so subtle and ingrained into our perceptions of the world. When someone says the B word, they don't exactly see it as harmful...and neither do I really. It's hard to dig up sexism without a rush of raw, hidden emotion because it is still in the unknown or unconscious mind of our society and ourselves. Or at least that's what I'm starting to believe.

Like someone already stated, the only thing you can do is teach children to be aware of the history and pain that these subtle things do to entire groups/countries. When kids see the history of that pain, they gain the ability to end that cycle of thinking.

Also plenty of studies are starting to show that our generation is much more lonely than the last. And as we continue to diverge and spend less real life human contact with each other, we begin to develop problems with genuine empathy. We tend to cut off barriers to other people and our senses become crippled. I'm aware that I'm pretty lonely, and I'm aware that I lack genuine empathy for other people's problems because I'm so wrapped in my own world. I'm moving out of my depression and I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out where this apathy is coming from, and trying to tackle it down.

Edit: If you notice in Majora's Mask...Link is also suffering from "loneliness" as the game opens up, but when he meets his "shadow" Skull Kid, he starts to gain the ability to find empathy and understanding. As soon as he stops seeing Skull Kid as an enemy and begins seeing him as a helpless neglected child...he's able to realize his problems and fears are the same as pretty much everyone else's. Link and the player can't see Skull Kid as anything short of demonic until we show some form of forgiveness, friendship or understanding. When we accept and becomes friends with our "shadow," we're able to see our own faults clear as day. And by extension, we're able to see other people's faults too. Knowing that we all suffer and have flaws is what makes us all human, and it's what creates the sensation of empathy. It's what eliminates loneliness and otherness.

When we're offended by another person's problems, we need to ask ourselves why does that make me feel this way? I think the game industry needs to go under some shadow therapy or something.

 

[antigoon]

Hmmm... what's this? Oh! Polygon. That means it will be an interesting and well thought article instead of Kotaku drivvle / click-bait!

*click*



Goddamnit...

*closes tab*

Mentioning Sarkeesian very quickly lets me know your legitimacy in the fight for equality in the realm of games.

Try instead quoting something well thought out and written along the lines of something like this featured article on GamaSutra and Game Career Guide written as part of a thesis by a friend of mine instead next time and maybe I won't roll my eyes at it.

Good day.

You're probably going to get banned before you have a chance to reply to this, but I want to try, because I see this "clickbait" argument come up all the time in gaming circles when editorials are written about oppressed groups and I don't really get it.

What makes this article clickbait?

Edit: WOW that was fast.

 

[mollipen]

Haha. I'll never get the imagery out of my head... But ah! Have men ever done a PlayStationBlog where they were live responding to comments and been interrupted by someone asking them to confirm an entire thread online dedicated to someone's fantasy sexcapades ?

WHAT THE FUCK

 

[Palette Swap]

You're probably going to get banned before you have a chance to reply to this, but I want to try, because I see this "clickbait" argument come up all the time in gaming circles when editorials are written about oppressed groups and I don't really get it.

What makes this article clickbait?

Edit: WOW that was fast.

The clickbait argument actually goes far beyond these minority/privilege/inclusion discussions, it's pretty much the anti-discussion WMD to silence anything you disagree with without having to explain why you think it's shit.

 

[antigoon]

The clickbait argument actually goes far beyond these minority/privilege/inclusion discussions, it's pretty much the anti-discussion WMD to silence anything you disagree with without having to explain why you think it's shit.

Yeah, I know. I guess I kind of understand the phrase where there's an opinion piece by someone trying to generate controversy, or something written with a misleading or vague title. That makes sense somewhat.

But this? It just seems to be a convenient excuse to dismiss something that makes you uncomfortable. That goes for the "I BOYCOTT POLYGON" posts, too. Like, congratulations, you're so principled.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I, uh, wow, what?

I just don't understand this. Really. I don't. Is decency dead? I'd freaking kick myself of I would ask these type of questions. Revolting. Respect if you can brush this these kind of things of with humor.

It is sort of a head-scratcher. Why on earth would the guy think dropping it there was a good idea, or appropriate at all? Or nice, goddammit! All those other people coming into the blog to ask about the game just see... that. It's bullshit. I was working late on that too because I give a shit, but stuff like that just makes you feel crappy and dirty.

You're probably going to get banned before you have a chance to reply to this, but I want to try, because I see this "clickbait" argument come up all the time in gaming circles when editorials are written about oppressed groups and I don't really get it.

What makes this article clickbait?

Edit: WOW that was fast.

I see that a lot in these kinds of threads too. Why not just say there are other articles you think have more merit and can also contribute to the conversation if you don't like the one posted?

WHAT THE FUCK

A typical day in the life, my friend.

 

[weemadarthur]

What woman in the industry hasn't received a pornographic fanfic emailed to her work email address that had creepily specific details? I'm serious. I've had one too. The kind of nasty shit you get/get written to or about you is appalling.

Do your work filters catch a lot of these offensive messages before they reach your inbox? Do you receive something of this nature every day? Thank you for joining in the conversation.

 

[besada]

Cool your jets. It's a relevant discussion, it's even directly quoting the article in the OP. Did you miss the fact that Hispanic Women are also part of that discussion/statistics?

It's unpleasantly ironic you want to dismiss other's people's plights because you want your own soapbox.

PS: As you can see in my title, I am a Junior Member which means I *can't* make my own thread.

If you'd like to create a thread about racism in the industry (which is a very important topic) I'm guessing that Vince (the OP of this thread) would be more than happy to work with you.

That said, while there was some brief, horrified discussion regarding the use of racial language, this thread is actually about women and what they go through in the games industry. I think there is plenty of room for different kinds of discussion, in different threads.

 

[Yrael]

Perhaps I should add "B-b-but Anita Sarkeesian!" to that list of derailment tactics.

I'm blushing over the Zelda praise...But really! Majora's Mask is so freakin' good about this topic.



While I believe both of those things are really important...

I feel as though people have a good understanding and awareness for racism. When someone drives by and yells racial slurs at me...I'm well aware and they're well aware of what they are doing and saying. Nobody is going to run over and defend racial slurs and demeaning comments on race.

However, when people cat-call me or treat me as inferior because of my sex...It's something they are unaware of. It is beyond their understanding and comprehension. And it's rather hard to explain why girls and women find it demeaning without facing a lot of trouble.

I think I'm much more offended by racial slurs, but I'm also more aware of them. If someone calls me the N word, I can easily rationalize that that person is partly "bad" or doing something socially unacceptable. Misogyny is actually much harder to notice because it is so subtle and ingrained into our perceptions of the world. When someone says the B word, they don't exactly see it as harmful...and neither do I really. It's hard to dig up sexism without a rush of raw, hidden emotion because it is still in the unknown or unconscious mind of our society and ourselves. Or at least that's what I'm starting to believe.

Like someone already stated, the only thing you can do is teach children to be aware of the history and pain that these subtle things do to entire groups/countries. When kids see the history of that pain, they gain the ability to end that cycle of thinking.

Also plenty of studies are starting to show that our generation is much more lonely than the last. And as we continue to diverge and spend less real life human contact with each other, we begin to develop problems with empathy. We tend to cut off barriers to other people and our senses become crippled. I'm aware that I'm pretty lonely, and I'm aware that I lack genuine empathy for other people's problems because I'm so wrapped in my own world. I'm moving out of my depression and I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out where this apathy is coming from, and trying to tackle it down.

When we're offended by another person's problems, we need to ask ourselves why does that make me feel this way? I think the game industry needs to go under some shadow therapy or something.

Yeah, sexism is frequently "invisible in plain sight," which can make it frustrating to point out.

It can even manifest in much subtler ways than overt harassment and name-calling, such as the way men and women talk to each other in groups; studies generally tend to find that men interrupt women far more frequently than the reverse (and even women will interrupt other women more than they will men).

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117757/gender-language-differences-women-get-interrupted-more

http://www.interruptions.net/literature/Smith-Lovin-AmerSocRev89.pdf

This imbalance is so ingrained that steps are taken to correct it and restore the balance can be perceived as women being too aggressive/bossy/pushy.

 

[PrivateRyan]

Haha. I'll never get the imagery out of my head... But ah! Have men ever done a PlayStationBlog where they were live responding to comments and been interrupted by someone asking them to confirm an entire thread online dedicated to someone's fantasy sexcapades with them?

…Jesus Christ.

I literally don't know what to say to someone else experiencing that, let alone trying to imagine how I'd respond to that myself. Beyond creepy.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Yesterday i read a news story about 3 teens who beat some homeless people to death. They interviewed a psychologist who said that the most dangerous person in the world is a group of teenage boys. Because their hormones develop faster than their brains. And when you put them in a group, you add in to the mix this sense of camaraderie.

I feel like this is kind of the same thing, except that the group in this case is basically all male gamers. Or at least the bad ones see the entire male gaming population as their comrades in all this.

The internet can act as a force multiplier for an unseen group living in your head - that sense of camaraderie for example. I think it can be extended to cover a giant amorphous group online. And when a lot of gamers see things that violate their sense of being in a giant "boy's club" - like women saying, well, anything - there is a tendency to react with statements like "why are you forcing this on us."

I sometimes wonder if the content of the contemporary 'core' game market has some interaction with this. Plenty of games marketed as mature for the adult gamer are really more juvenile in an "edgy and aggressive" teenage punk sense. Besides the genuine teenagers playing games, I wonder if the relative dominance of this sort of content inadvertently filters in males who are still acting like teenagers into their 20s and 30s. I mean yes it's anecdotal, but it feels like I run into a few too many guys playing games who has the personality of a 16 year old.

I think anonymity on the Internet is a double edged sword. It can be used for both good and bad. Lately I've started to question whether the good really does outweigh the bad, and I'm not entirely convinced.

The root problem with the internet isn't anonymity, but distance. Facebook and Twitter have proven that a whole lot of people will behave in horrific ways while displaying a legal wallet name and photo. Often with a "come at me bro" attitude; as if to say "so what? It's just Internet. What you gonna do?" Anonymity does increase the ambient level of noise. But if you literally cut it out I think many would be shocked at how little ultimately changes in terms of negative behavior.

 

[E92 M3]

Funny enough while we're discussing this, my girl texted while I'm at work and said the guys in the Poland Spring truck started hollering and clapping at her while she was walking up our driveway from getting the mail.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Cool your jets. It's a relevant discussion, it's even directly quoting the article in the OP. Did you miss the fact that Hispanic Women are also part of that discussion/statistics?

It's unpleasantly ironic you want to dismiss other's people's plights because you want your own soapbox.

PS: As you can see in my title, I am a Junior Member which means I *can't* make my own thread.

Let's roll. Hit me up via PM and we'll get what you want to say out there as an OP.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Do your work filters catch a lot of these offensive messages before they reach your inbox? Do you receive something of this nature every day? Thank you for joining in the conversation.

I'm sure some stuff goes to spam, especially from odd addresses, but I've only gotten a few questionable things through mail, that one being the most bizarre by a mile. Generally the comments and shit come from interviews (gods help any woman after a live interview), demos, and forums.

Much of it you just have to shrug off because otherwise you run into that "women make a big deal out of nothing" wall. As a male friend said who also didn't quite see what the big deal with it was (after I told him about some of the comments), "It's like a compliment! What's the fuss?" It's a pretty typical response, sadly.

And, happy to contribute. It's a topic I feel fairly strongly about and I'd like to help keep pushing awareness if I can.

…Jesus Christ.

I literally don't know what to say to someone else experiencing that, let alone trying to imagine how I'd respond to that myself. Beyond creepy.

It's an awkward and uncomfortable thing to be sure. I don't know what possesses some people to be so disgusting and rude. An extra sad part is that sometimes when other guys do call out guys like that dropping shitty comments they get called that oh-so beloved "white knight" catch phrase. As if pointing out gross behavior and demanding decency can only be a ploy to curry favor with a 'female' and not simply just the right thing. Pisses me off.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

It's an awkward and uncomfortable thing to be sure. I don't know what possesses some people to be so disgusting and rude. An extra sad part is that sometimes when other guys do call out guys like that dropping shitty comments they get called that oh-so beloved "white knight" catch phrase. As if pointing out gross behavior and demanding decency can only be a ploy to curry favor with a 'female' and not simply just the right thing. Pisses me off.

I wonder whether it is some form of social ineptness that makes some men see women as simply "the other sex that we want to get into our pants" and not as real people. Things they do become mere gestures to impress women whom they think are attractive, gestures that they think should be welcomed because "hey that's what men are!". These sort of view of themselves and women probably leads to loads of projection. "That guy is only speaking up because he wants to impress the girl" is a projection of what he himself might do, that is to only speak up for women only because he wants to impress them.

 

[Jobbs]

It's an awkward and uncomfortable thing to be sure. I don't know what possesses some people to be so disgusting and rude. An extra sad part is that sometimes when other guys do call out guys like that dropping shitty comments they get called that oh-so beloved "white knight" catch phrase. As if pointing out gross behavior and demanding decency can only be a ploy to curry favor with a 'female' and not simply just the right thing. Pisses me off.

funny, I was just talking about with someone a few days ago. "white knight" is one of those internet things that just makes my blood boil.

I just wrote up my little dissertation on why I hate this term, but ultimately who cares. I just hate it. I'm waiting for someone to dare call me this.

I wonder whether it is some form of social ineptness that makes some men see women as simply "the other sex that we want to get into our pants" and not as real people. Things they do become mere gestures to impress women whom they think are attractive, gestures that they think should be welcomed because "hey that's what men are!". These sort of view of themselves and women probably leads to loads of projection. "That guy is only speaking up because he wants to impress the girl" is a projection of what he himself might do, that is to only speak up for women only because he wants to impress them.

for the record, I am not a girl so I do not know what all impresses them, but one could probably do worse than by being kind and considerate.

 

[antigoon]

The internet can act as a force multiplier for an unseen group living in your head - that sense of camaraderie for example. I think it can be extended to cover a giant amorphous group online. And when a lot of gamers see things that violate their sense of being in a giant "boy's club" - like women saying, well, anything - there is a tendency to react with statements like "why are you forcing this on us."

I sometimes wonder if the content of the contemporary 'core' game market has some interaction with this. Plenty of games marketed as mature for the adult gamer are really more juvenile in an "edgy and aggressive" teenage punk sense. Besides the genuine teenagers playing games, I wonder if the relative dominance of this sort of content inadvertently filters in males who are still acting like teenagers into their 20s and 30s. I mean yes it's anecdotal, but it feels like I run into a few too many guys playing games who has the personality of a 16 year old.

Could be. And to your final point, it's a mistake and a minimization of the issue to suggest that this behavior is only, or even primarily being committed by teenagers (not accusing you of this, but agreeing with your sentiment).

Again, more anecdotal evidence, but I play a lot of Dota 2 and the amount of racist, sexist, ableist, and homophobic language you experience on a day to day basis is literally staggering. By adults. I rarely encounter kids anymore. I was on r/dota2 just yesterday in a thread pleading with the community to stop harassing a woman who performed at an afterparty of a tournament, and one of the top, heavily upvoted comments (which was gilded, by the way), called everyone F-bombs and to "take that shit back to tumblr."

The root problem with the internet isn't anonymity, but distance. Facebook and Twitter have proven that a whole lot of people will behave in horrific ways while displaying a legal wallet name and photo. Often with a "come at me bro" attitude; as if to say "so what? It's just Internet. What you gonna do?" Anonymity does increase the ambient level of noise. But if you literally cut it out I think many would be shocked at how little ultimately changes in terms of negative behavior.

I agree with you on this as well. It's the freedom from consequence that the Internet provides. Sure, anonymity helps, but it's not required. Chances are, absolutely nothing will happen if you exhibit abhorrent anti-social behavior on the internet, even with your real name.

funny, I was just talking about with someone a few days ago. "white knight" is one of those internet things that just makes my blood boil.

I just wrote up my little dissertation on why I hate this term, but ultimately who cares. I just hate it. I'm waiting for someone to dare call me this.

The fact that the implication even exists that it's impossible for a man to defend or stand up for a woman facing harassment without having an ulterior motive speaks volumes itself about how pervasive sexist attitudes are.

 

[Devolution]

It all has roots in the same thing, not seeing various groups of people as people. Not to mention the sexual frustration many men levy at women for simply existing and not fucking them.

 

[cpp_is_king]

The root problem with the internet isn't anonymity, but distance. Facebook and Twitter have proven that a whole lot of people will behave in horrific ways while displaying a legal wallet name and photo. Often with a "come at me bro" attitude; as if to say "so what? It's just Internet. What you gonna do?" Anonymity does increase the ambient level of noise. But if you literally cut it out I think many would be shocked at how little ultimately changes in terms of negative behavior.

Things like what we see here are really just peanuts compared to some of the bad shit that happens under the veil of anonymity. Think about Tor hidden services for example. The type of places where serious shit goes on (child porn, rape forums, the kind of shit you probably didn't even want to know existed). It's all possible and thriving due to the anonymous nature of the internet.

That being said, I think that people are definitely less likely to say this kind of hurtful stuff when they're not anonymous. Sure, it still can happen no matter what, but not nearly as much.

 

[enoki]

Things like what we see here are really just peanuts compared to some of the bad shit that happens under the veil of anonymity. Think about Tor hidden services for example. The type of places where serious shit goes on (child porn, rape forums, the kind of shit you probably didn't even want to know existed). It's all possible and thriving due to the anonymous nature of the internet.

That being said, I think that people are definitely less likely to say this kind of hurtful stuff when they're not anonymous. Sure, it still can happen no matter what, but not nearly as much.

You'll just absolutely love this article about a bunch of script kiddies monitoring women through their webcams:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...e-men-who-spy-on-women-through-their-webcams/

 

[ab.aeterno]

It's an awkward and uncomfortable thing to be sure. I don't know what possesses some people to be so disgusting and rude. An extra sad part is that sometimes when other guys do call out guys like that dropping shitty comments they get called that oh-so beloved "white knight" catch phrase. As if pointing out gross behavior and demanding decency can only be a ploy to curry favor with a 'female' and not simply just the right thing. Pisses me off.

Which is funny because it only reinforces that whatever shitheel uses that phrase sees women only as objects to have sex with (because why else would a man do anything with or for a woman unless the end goal is sex? That's all they're there for, obvs.)

I find it deliciously ironic and doubly funny when the phrase gets tossed my way.

 

[Sadist]

It is sort of a head-scratcher. Why on earth would the guy think dropping it there was a good idea, or appropriate at all? Or nice, goddammit! All those other people coming into the blog to ask about the game just see... that. It's bullshit. I was working late on that too because I give a shit, but stuff like that just makes you feel crappy and dirty.

You know, I wish I could add anything constructive, but man, I'm just shocked by how casual this was posted on a blog regarding information about videogames. Anyway, I know it's not up to me, but the only one feeling crappy and dirty should be the guy who posted this comment.

The root problem with the internet isn't anonymity, but distance. Facebook and Twitter have proven that a whole lot of people will behave in horrific ways while displaying a legal wallet name and photo. Often with a "come at me bro" attitude; as if to say "so what? It's just Internet. What you gonna do?" Anonymity does increase the ambient level of noise. But if you literally cut it out I think many would be shocked at how little ultimately changes in terms of negative behavior.

Truth.

Every now and then I tend to see these discussions on social media, news sites or messageboards when someone engages in heated "discussions/debates/fame wars" and they will go as far as shaming their herritage, gender, nationality, beliefs etc. but their names were out in the open. Or their tags were so easily traced you could google those people in a matter of minutes. As long as they can't hurt you directly, you can spout the biggest crap if you want to. Even if your identity is publicly known some people just don't care. They want to hurt/drag people to their own level because the so called distance is big enough.

In a day and age of Twitter and Facebook, that might be the dumbest thing to do. But alas, it's just internet.

 

[Devolution]

The problem is already entrenched misogyny + lack of consequences, legal or social. Shame is a powerful tool but if people stay quiet nothing changes.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Considering the scandal at the Dragon's Dogma studio, I can believe this. It is the 1950's mentality with game companies.

What scandal is that?

 

[Deleted member 20920]

What scandal is that?

Seems like it could be this one.
http://kotaku.com/5911353/japanese-game-developer-apparently-harassed-so-much-she-attempted-suicide

 

[Sadist]

Seems like it could be this one.
http://kotaku.com/5911353/japanese-game-developer-apparently-harassed-so-much-she-attempted-suicide

Man after finishing the story (what the fuck at those folks) I started to read the comment section. Dear lord. That was a huge mistake. Especially the first comment is fucking horrible.

 

[Amir0x]

I honestly have no idea. And it truly is disproportionately directed at women. None of the guys in the office have ever been subject to harassment that I know of, while EVERY SINGLE woman has either been groped at E3, had ass pics sneakily taken of them, received shitty emails, been subject to harassing comments online, had sexual comments on interviews, etc.

I bet they were totally all thirteen year olds who haven't been a part of society even once in their life though!

I'm just going to save this post of yours so I can provide yet another link on top of the mountain of links I put together here to highlight just a sampling of the nasty shit that goes on in this industry, and is sometimes even endorsed by influential people within it. It's just obscene at this point that we still have anybody willing to actually come in here and deny what individuals like yourself obviously honestly share with us so that everyone can come to a better understanding of what's at stake and how serious things are.

Maybe I'm just extra sensitive to this since I'm a supervisor where I work and the amount of ungodly shit that our female employees have come to me about to do something over because of some co-worker would probably not blow your mind, considering your experience. But it might blow the minds of many of the men who are trying to deny how serious this is.

 

[Cyrano]

This research by Glick and Fiske is really interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id7hPJS05V4

 

[dLMN8R]

It's such a distraction not only when people claim this is just kids hiding beyond anonymity, but when people claim it's anonymity in general.

It's quite obvious that these are things which regularly happen in real life too, all the time. Especially at conventions.

 

[Tigress]

While I appreciate the fact that this article is written and bringing important topics to light, you know what? Nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

We're all going to post about how awful it is. We're all going to say that things should change. And twenty years later we'll be saying the same thing. There will always be people who post these hateful things. There will always be trolls, sexists, racists, and bigots. With the nature of the internet this will NEVER go away. Ever. Even if people knew the name and address of the people who posted these things, this will exist.

I guess the grand point I'm making is that these articles are pointless except for a place to vent for the author (which doesn't make them pointless if it makes the author feel better, I suppose).

That may be cold, but I just don't see what this accomplishes, at least on the internet side of things.

That's BS. Talking about it already is change. The fact that more people are showing interest is change.

These things are not sudden. no, you're not going to see a sudden turn around, but it will change especially if we talk about it. You're being impatient and thinking just cause people aren't magically going, "you're right" now and a lot are bitching and complaining and saying it's BS that change isn't happening. Cultural shifts don't happen that quick.

I mean, just 10 years ago I'm pretty sure no state allowed gay marriage. You wouldn't have corporations come out with ads in support of tolerance of gays, you just wouldn't (They'd stay neutral. THe fact that many have found it is profitable to be on the side of tolerance is showing you which way the wind is blowing). When I was a kid, AIDs was seen as a gay thing. There was a lot of talk about how it wasn't. I am sure a lot of people then had a hard time seeing a day when it wasn't taken for granted AIDs was a gay thing.

You know some of that change? Was all that talk influenced the younger generation, kids like me. Now kids like me are more grown up and more tolerant and becoming more of the population.

Sure, you aren't going to change some people's minds. But you will change some. And you will influence the youth who will be tomorrow's society.

Hell, talking about gender equality 50 years ago it was only poor women who had to go to work. At some point, it was unheard of that females actually vote.

Man after finishing the story (what the fuck at those folks) I started to read the comment section. Dear lord. That was a huge mistake. Especially the first comment is fucking horrible.

Anything talking about females and gaming I tend to avoid the comment section except here and, honestly, Kotaku. Which has some pretty scary comments admittedly, but I have also seen some good comments and resistance to those comments as well (unlike IGN or even Gamespot where you mostly get crap and get really shouted down if you even try to say differently). Even the G+ gaming community I hate getting into discussions about females and gaming (there is a big impression there about the "gamer chick" who is just there to lure you into thinking she is a real gamer. And if you dare say you are a female gamer you will get snark to that effect on there. Also, don't try bringing up wanting more female characters to play. You're just trying to force developers to give up their artistic vision).

Then again, at this point I mostly stay on here for my gaming needs.