Does it matter why someone is offended? If you know a word offends shouldn't you stop using it?
"Exotic" might not be a compliment towards people
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
- Status
Does it matter why someone is offended? If you know a word offends shouldn't you stop using it?
Well, that's what exotic means when you use it in this context.
And knowing what I know of her I'm pretty sure she would have been cool with it as a compliment. But I knew her. so it would have been okay to use.
I'm not saying I would go up to a stranger and say it. As I said: tact. It's one of those words that's best suited when you get to know a person better, there are plenty of words like this.
Are you really suggesting we don't use all words that some people find offensive? That would mean striking out a lot of words.
You're talking to someone you know nothing about, so yes it would be presumptuous and rude to assume it's okay to speak to someone that way. Maybe they won't take offense, in which case the best you can say is no harm no foul.
I honestly think it's pretty weird to comment on a stranger's appearance beyond the most general terms, but if you're going to open up with that stuff maybe try a more mild adjective to see if that line of conversation is even open?
To describe other people? I'd say there are a lot of words I'd let other people use to describe themselves first before I'd touch them, and plenty can just never be used. You have to have a basic toolkit of words to describe people whether they like them or not; exotic isn't one that needs to be included.
Personally, I'm talking about the second scenario too. Like I said may pages ago now, and beyond implying that they may be foreign, there are sociological issues like marginalization and fetishization that come into play with the term too.
Maybe the person is friendly and so doesn't mean the foreign aspect of the word, but that person very well may have a fetish, and sees the person as the target of that fetish. This isn't something you could pick out easily with body language or tone.
Well you shouldn't use it to that person. But that's not what I mean. Relatively, cute has less meaning and fewer ways of seeming condescending than exotic does.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Because it perfectly acceptable use of the word?
Exotic synonyms:
bizarro, fantastic (also fantastical), glamorous (also glamourous), marvelous (or marvellous), outlandish, romantic, strange
Yes Bizzaro, and outlandish and strange are in there. But so are Glamorous, marvelous, and Fantastic. Tons of english words have different meanings and synonyms seems odd how certain just start getting singled out.
Also Tilda Swinton is an exotic beauty in my book.
I don't disagree that tact is important, and as I've said before -- personally I think using the word exotic is in fact weird to use right off the bat. I don't use it -- so I think that so far we're on the same page.
Where I diverge with you though is that we are adding an unnecessary stigma to a word that is relatively harmless and neutral. Of course, continued use after you've been informed it's a word a person doesn't feel comfortable with is unacceptable.
But on its own, I don't think it's a harmful word at all, especially if it truly is something that is completely foreign or extremely rare to you, and again, context matters.. so if I were to use it in a condescending manner (tone of voice, body language, etc) then the recipient has every right to be offended and react in such a way.
It doesn't need to be stricken completely though. This is the point./ This entire thing is base on the argument that you should never call another human being exotic, and while it probably should be at the forefront of adjectives to choose from when meeting someone for the very first time, there are plenty of times it would be taken as a complement in this context too.
Again: this argument would be much better if it was simply saying "be mindful of the words you choose, different people are offended by different things", then using the example of "exotic" as a word that should be used carefully as a compliment.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Let's be real, is this really just a thread of women and minorities talking to people who don't give a shit about what they think? Why would you write that otherwise? People have told you when it's not acceptable and why. Give a shit. Similarly, do you understand what the person meant about Latino vs Hispanic?
Yep. And they have no shame about it.
Some people find it offensive.
Some people don't.
That doesn't mean we should avoid it, we should just be careful with it.
Again: there are plenty of other words or opinions you have that when used or expressed could potentially cause offence, that doesn't mean we should never use or express them, we just use tact to determine when we can or not.
So I think that's fair, but I'd still be hesitant to use in that sense on a person. Gem stones and Michael Jordan rookie cards are rare. Humans are not. By focusing on their superficial physical traits you run the risk of objectifying that person.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I know exactly what he meant, and I understood where he was coming from. But he approached it in very militant way that completely turned me off to what he was saying. That's the problem I have with discussing topics like this on the Internet, people get so crazy about it when in the grand scheme of things it really not a big deal.
You've said your grievances but we contest it's minor. You can not accept that if you want but that's how it is. You can bark at us for not respecting feelings but we see it as an over reaction. We're not condoning harassment, cat calling, racism, etc. we're just condoning a word that, well, harmless.
There is a reason why words never fall out of grace and only into it. Make waves about words that have impact and are harmful, not benign ones that are used to describe someone who you find exotic. If you want to see racism in that, go ahead. We'll shrug it off and move on with our day like most people.
Hmmmm.
Are we talking about marginalization and fetishization issues in the US or worldwide? Because a lot of this has huge cultural differences. I'm talking about it in the broader sense, and it does make me a little sad that we are so ready to assume the worst in people when it comes to such a neutral word, where intent and context play such a huge role.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Agreed
The people saying this are being incredibly insensitive. They should acknowledge the offence caused, apologise, and refrain from doing whatever caused offence in future.
I'm an atheist. I will express that sometimes during relevant conversation. Some people have been incredibly offended by the revelation, and I've apologised and either removed myself from the conversation or steered it elsewhere.
It doesn't mean I should never ever express my beliefs about religion because some people will be offended by them.
What we do is have conversations, meet people, express ourselves. And we learn with individuals what is okay to say and what is not, then we build relationships accordingly.
Just be polite and learn from mistakes,don't walk on eggshells just because some things will offended some people.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Uh...
Many people have already pointed out how exotic reminds them of the word oriental. Does anyone use that anymore? Was it that harmful, or did we just listen when Asian people explained it to us?
The stigma was created by people using it in a weird way, so the decision of whether the stigma is necessary doesn't enter into it. The stigma exists because people think weird things about race, and describing people as 'exotic' often references their race.
The base of the argument is
Which is pretty mild. It gets less mild because people use 'exotic' not just to describe a unique instance of human physical features but also some features they are perceived to share with canonical racial ideals, which heats up the conversation. So I don't think the discussion hinges on whether humans should ever be called exotic, but on whether you should feel secure about thinking and talking about humans in a way that makes their physical features sound like they couldn't possibly have come from anywhere you live. Because they may actually be from next door.
Saying that they shouldn't be offended is an entirely different beast, I think. At that point you're saying "I don't care that you care, so I will force my feelings upon you because fuck you, that's why".
The moment someone states they are offended, the offending party should probably say "I meant it as a compliment, but I apologize for offending you, I won't do it again". then you have a solid understanding between the two of you.
I've been called exotic while in Thailand.
Maybe it's life experiences getting in the way, ya know?
Watch the video. She explicitly states that humans should never be called exotic. The title is different to the argument she makes.
I'd say the number of people using it in a weird way is pretty small -- it's not like using other, wildly known words. Once someone makes it weird though, I'm with you 100%.
My point is that we aren't approaching this with a clean slate. We are simply moving towards assuming the worst in everyone which is a little unfair to me. I suppose it's easier to just be on the defensive all the time instead of trying to figure out what the message is.
But what we're been trying to tell you is that in a lot of communities it is a bid deal. Among Asian-Americans it's only slightly less taboo than oriental. Dislike of the term exotic is a fairly frequent topic of conversation.
I can only speak for the US.
I agree with you 100%, especially the bolded. That's what I'm trying to get them to see. My hypothetical scenario was the foundation of it and they're really showing themselves for being so dismissive.
There is NO difference between these two. None, only it's not just women who dislike it, it's minorities (male and female). There's many women who dislike cat calls and there's women who like them, but it's still well known that cat calls are unacceptable.
So, just because there's minorities that don't think exotic is objectifying minorities doesn't mean that it's still an acceptable word to throw at the rest of us. Maybe it will one day be frowned on. This fetishism of minorities has got to stop. It's unsettling.
Where are these communities? Why are you speaking for people who really only exist in what we can verify as a small group of individuals?
I will need documentation of it actually being hurtful to communities. I don't deal in speculation and "well, they're offended". I need to see an actual community that finds this abhorrent.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
We've finally gotten into "I need solid proof that I agree with because I don't believe the dozens of people in this thread who, despite all being totally different and from different places, all agree on the same things for the same reasons."
If I saw you speaking in Chinese, and you were wearing Chinese clothing (not necessarily traditional, mind you), would it be wrong to call you exotic if for some reason that were to come up in the conversation? Because that would be describing a foreigner, and not knowing you, I'd have no reason to assume otherwise.
Simply using the word for the sake of using it is weird and I'm totally with you in that it isn't the right word at all simply due to your skin color.
There's a difference between calling someone "exotic" in replace of foreigner when they're born there, and that's wrong but probably is a simple mistake and can easily be rectified.
Saying someone has exotic beauty is different. You can bridge those 2 all you want but that's a reaching argument.
But it all boils down to how offensive it really is. You still have to show how it is such a vulgar statement to say to someone. Saying it's a seperator isn't enough because you're just quoting microaggression which can be applied to any statement theoretically. Application is key.
It's nowhere near the same thing as a catcall.
Some people will be offended by my atheist views, should I never express them?
No, I should simply use tact when I do.
Because people are speaking for others here. You're using outrage of theoretically people as evidence. We need to see outrage to see change. That's how it works.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
That's fair, I've never experienced that but I'll take your word for it . I'll keep that in mind
In the latin community it's pretty much a compliment.They are, far too often.
Holy fuck dude. Go to a college campus and make some Asian friends.
And maybe you should stop speaking for every single Asian on the planet?
I live in Vancouver where Caucasians will be a visible minority within a decade or so, I have enough Asian friends. Used to work for a Korean games publisher as well. My quota of Asian friends easily exceeds the required amount you're for some reason looking for.
I'm guessing that was your point?
CountAntonius
Member
That's fair, I've never experienced that but I'll take your word for it . I'll keep that in mind
Funny how true that is as a fellow Latin. Not only for me but with women I know. It's actually high praise. I wonder why?
Yep.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This is just derailing, because how could anyone give you proof that many Asians feel this or not? You have no trust that people have life experiences different than yours.
Regardless, if you still feel this isn't a serious thing with Asians (as well as many other ethnicities), Google can help: https://www.google.com/webhp?q=asian exotic fetish
This means what though? I'm sure you can find people against the word beautiful as well as long as you Google hard enough. The real issue is whether this is an over reaction. The people against the word haven't sufficiently argued it isn't. The onus is on you to show us how it is so bad it shouldn't be used as a compliment. No one has so far. We can create situations where it can be bad but that can be said about every other descriptor in existence.
I don't think I am being unreasonable.
User Name Here
Member
I always liked exotic looking women. Guess I've had it wrong all this time.
I think that's just the conclusion to her argument. Honestly the only reason I wouldn't take it at face value is because I can come up with a situation where a person wouldn't have a problem being called exotic. But since her argument uses situations where people do have a problem with it, I don't think she's said anything wrong.
Turns out there isn't a clean slate when it comes to race. There's actually a lot of physical features that wouldn't be normally taken neutrally when commented on, like below average height, but if you want to start at the top of the list you've picked the right topic...
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
My ex asian GF used to call me exotic, that bitch! LOL
She's just bandying it about like it's absolute, that's the only issue I have.
I just did.
Q: Is being called "exotic" a compliment?
A: I would take it as a compliment! I'm 100% Brazilian, and I take the comment of being "exotic" to be a compliment. More power to you
That's one example, reading through what I found in a brief google search opinions are conflicting.
She begins by saying "you know what you should never call exotic: people". I think it's fairly clear she's not being objective.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's big enough of a thing that even a basic show like the Office called people out on it. Be better.
"wow you are very exotic looking.. was your dad a GI or..?"
The parts that I took issue with were how amazingly condescending she was, and her saying that your intentions don't matter.
Well, I meant with marginalizing and fetishizing. Someone could mean it as an honest compliment with no ill intent or meaning behind it. At least in the Latin community, it's how we view it. I concede that this could be a very prevalent issue with the Asian community, but I had not heard of that until recently, and (omg I can't believe I'm gonna use this) I have plenty of Asian friends. I'm in the Japanese association and a vast number of people at my company that I am friends with are Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.
But yeah, that's what I meant with a 'clean slate' - as far as intent and message sent across.
It is the same.
You should not be ashamed of your beliefs, but no one, atheist, Christian, etc, should be forcing their beliefs into everyone else.
Sine when did "express" mean "force"?
And you just cherry picked to suit your side of the debate.
Actually, it was the very first example found. I could show you more.
I acknowledged they were conflicting results, and from what I see on Google the result are conflicting, not a majority either way.
She's making an argument. She derives (loosely speaking) the conclusion from the premises. I don't know what an objective argument is, but it seems like a regular argument to me.
The central idea is that 'exotic' is not a compliment, which is either debatable or not correct in some cases, but she does a decent job of showing that it is not obviously a compliment.
A google search that has a race and "fetish" and it yields results that are, well, unsavory?
I have asked them. They shrug it off. It's never brought up again because there's an understanding that it's a benign word. It's making a mountain of a molehill.
Can I post opinion articles on Fat Acceptance? Opinions can be wrong too.
If no one cares or inquiries about your religion, why are you subjecting them to it?
If I don't ask you if I look exotic, why do you feel like you should tell me about it?
- Status