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[Zombie James]

I was going to watch this but realized I hadn't watched part one yet (I think), so I watched that first. I couldn't finish it. Anita is manipulative as fuck. She uses examples such as scenes with strip clubs and prostitutes as sexualizing women... but they're strip clubs and prostitutes. How the hell are you going to have those two things in a game without it being sexualized? She shows a scene from a Vietnam game where a prostitute does the "love you long time" bit from Apocalypse Now. Maybe she hasn't seen the movie or thinks prostituon during that war didn't exist? I don't know. Then she moved onto violence against women and showed scenes from Sleeping Dogs and GTA, where the character is killing or assaulting women; actions you can do to ANY NPC in these games, male or female. I stopped there.

Yes, sexualizing, objectifying, and beating up women is bad. Using scantily clad women to promote arcade games is probably something people would take issue with more so today than thirty years ago, and from what I watched it's probably Anita's only argument I agreed with, but the rest? Using examples like stripers striping in a strip club and prostitutes prostituting, or using violence against female NPCs in the same way as you can against male NPCs in open world games, do absolutely nothing to make her point. Is part two as bad as the first one?

 

[zeldablue]

Isn't Patriarchy just a fun way of saying society?

The values, conditioning and predetermined stereotypes thrown on us as soon as we leave the womb?

Society helps and harms everyone. But it more overtly stunts disadvantaged groups.

I was going to watch this but realized I hadn't watched part one yet (I think), so I watched that first. I couldn't finish it. Anita is manipulative as fuck. She uses examples such as scenes with strip clubs and prostitutes as sexualizing women... but they're strip clubs and prostitutes. How the hell are you going to have those two things in a game without it being sexualized? She shows a scene from a Vietnam game where a prostitute does the "love you long time" bit from Apocalypse Now. Maybe she hasn't seen the movie or thinks prostituon during that war didn't exist? I don't know. Then she moved onto violence against women and showed scenes from Sleeping Dogs and GTA, where the character is killing or assaulting women; actions you can do to ANY NPC in these games, male or female. I stopped there.

Yes, sexualizing, objectifying, and beating up women is bad. Using scantily clad women to promote arcade games is probably something people would take issue with more so today than thirty years ago, and from what I watched it's probably Anita's only argument I agreed with, but the rest? Using examples like stripers striping in a strip club and prostitutes prostituting, or using violence against female NPCs in the same way as you can against male NPCs in open world games, do absolutely nothing to make her point. Is part two as bad as the first one?

Ehhh...I dunno. She's trying to focus on sexualized violence. So when you watch it you have to keep in mind the sexual aspect to all the violence. People kind of assume women = sexual and so the whole point goes over their head. So, watch the 2nd video and just keep in mind how sexual attributes effect the feel of the game and the perceptions they might be flopping around.

 

[The Technomancer]

I was going to watch this but realized I hadn't watched part one yet (I think), so I watched that first. I couldn't finish it. Anita is manipulative as fuck. She uses examples such as scenes with strip clubs and prostitutes as sexualizing women... but they're strip clubs and prostitutes. How the hell are you going to have those two things in a game without it being sexualized? She shows a scene from a Vietnam game where a prostitute does the "love you long time" bit from Apocalypse Now. Maybe she hasn't seen the movie or thinks prostituon during that war didn't exist? I don't know. Then she moved onto violence against women and showed scenes from Sleeping Dogs and GTA, where the character is killing or assaulting women; actions you can do to ANY NPC in these games, male or female. I stopped there.

This got beat to death in the other thread but: you realize the games creators have total control over the frequency and presentation of prostitutuon and stripping yeah? Its not like GTA is some ultra realistic simulator, its a hyper-reality and its creators have control over what that reality presents and how it emphasizes it. Again, its not like its depiction of the frequency of prostitution is "realistic" in the first place.

 

[Lime]

I was going to watch this but realized I hadn't watched part one yet (I think), so I watched that first. I couldn't finish it. Anita is manipulative as fuck. She uses examples such as scenes with strip clubs and prostitutes as sexualizing women... but they're strip clubs and prostitutes. How the hell are you going to have those two things in a game without it being sexualized?

*sigh*

You think it's simply by accident that all those games take place at strip clubs and brothels?

I guess the developers simply have to sexualize and brutalize the women in question, because the games apparently are FORCED to take place at strip clubs and brothels.

Moreover, you completely miss the point of her video. She's saying that these are things that should be handled with kid gloves, and not some superficial bullshit that's solely there to stroke the penis of the male player while stimulating the violent side of his brain.

 

[Yrael]

Isn't Patriarchy just a fun way of saying society?

The values, conditioning and predetermined stereotypes thrown on us as soon as we leave the womb?

Society helps and harms everyone. But it more overtly stunts disadvantaged groups.

A patriarchal society is essentially one in which men are regarded as the central figures of authority, with the result that the majority of political/social power is wielded by men and men are judged to be better suited for leadership roles than women. Many confining gender roles and stereotypes are derived from this, and indeed they can also prove to be a hindrance even to those who mostly benefit from living in a patriarchy.

 

[Sande]

Just finished it. Is she attempting to say that Dishonored is sexist because when you point the Heart at the girls at the brothel you hear a bit of their life story and it's a bit sad and tragic ? Interesting point, considering if you point the Heart at just about everyone in the whole game it tells you some tragic detail of that NPC's life very frequently. That's what the Heart DOES, as it itself is a representation of the protagonist's tragic event that happened at the beginning of the game. Also, point of note, the zoom lens is for aim refinement and eavesdropping conversations, not zooming in on women. Doing that you could take out a rifle with a scope in the last of us and say the entire game is sexist and promotes pedophilia because you chose to zoom in on Ellie while she picked up a brick.

She makes some fair points with some of those examples, but there is also some very choice picks of unlikely player controlled actions and misunderstood theme interpretations that lend some of the things she says to criticism.

This is my main beef with her videos. She complains that you can murder hookers and other women in most violent games, but that comes with the territory in an interactive media. A point could be made of why there are so many female prostitutes and other scantily clad women in these games but you can't really single out their murder in games where you can kill anyone you want. It partially undermines her whole video series when she says "look, you can brutally murder this attractive woman in Deus Ex" like it means something. When you can murder anybody in a game, you can't single out a certain group to make a point. I don't understand why she does this, it isn't even like there's a lack of sexism in video games that would lead her to grasp at straws like this.

I'm mainly referring to the violability part of Women as Background Decoration: Part 1. Part 2 isn't as disagreeable at any point so there's some progress.

 

[AlimNassor]

This is my main beef with her videos. She complains that you can murder hookers and other women in most violent games, but that comes with the territory in an interactive media. A point could be made of why there are so many female prostitutes and other scantily clad women in these games but you can't really single out their murder in games where you can kill anyone you want. It partially undermines her whole video series when she says "look, you can brutally murder this attractive woman in Deus Ex" like it means something. When you can murder anybody in a game, you can't single out a certain group to make a point. I don't understand why she does this, it isn't even like there's a lack of sexism in video games that would lead her to grasp at straws like this.

I'm mainly referring to the violability part of Women as Background Decoration: Part 1. Part 2 isn't as disagreeable at any point so there's some progress.

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

 

[Zombie James]

Ehhh...I dunno. She's trying to focus on sexualized violence. So when you watch it you have to keep in mind the sexual aspect to all the violence. People kind of assume women = sexual and so the whole point goes over their head. So, watch the 2nd video and just keep in mind how sexual attributes effect the feel of the game and the perceptions they might be flopping around.

In the first part she says, "Some games explicitly incentivize and reward this kind of behaviour by having murdered women drop bundles of cash for the player to collect and add to their own stash," and then shows clips from GTA and Saint's Row. Doesn't sound sexualized to me. She twists her words and makes it sound like this is a reward for killing women when, again, you can do the exact same thing to a male NPC in these game. If these games only dropped cash for killing women NPCs then she would have an argument.

 

[The Jackdog]

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

Brothels are a great way for a game like dishonored to properly set the setting and tone, what are you talking about?

Its an iconic establishment with a certain style, why not use it in the game? Its like saying "why even have crowds wearing the home team's jersey in madden?" Its just an extra touch to set the tone and time

 

[TatteredHat]

This is my main beef with her videos. She complains that you can murder hookers and other women in most violent games, but that comes with the territory in an interactive media. A point could be made of why there are so many female prostitutes and other scantily clad women in these games but you can't really single out their murder in games where you can kill anyone you want. It partially undermines her whole video series when she says "look, you can brutally murder this attractive woman in Deus Ex" like it means something. When you can murder anybody in a game, you can't single out a certain group to make a point. I don't understand why she does this, it isn't even like there's a lack of sexism in video games that would lead her to grasp at straws like this.

I'm mainly referring to the violability part of Women as Background Decoration: Part 1. Part 2 isn't as disagreeable at any point so there's some progress.

The part that really stood out to me in Part 1 as being dishonest was when she was discussing Hitman and mentioned the a level where you have to sneak past two female strippers without them noticing you but she instead decided to portray it as if you were supposed to beat them down, kill them and drag their dead bodies around. The option is there, yes, just as the option is there to do that to any other NPC in the level, but you get penalties for harming innocents.

I mean, what's the point in doing that when there are plenty of real examples available? Heck, she could have just pointed at the level and questioned why it took place in a strip club in the first place.

 

[poorlonelycomputer]

I just read the phrase "vicious stereotypes about men" so it's time for me to bow out.

 

[Lime]

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

With the amount of strip clubs and brothels and what-not, one would think that it's naturally intrinsic to video games.

It's so embarrassing for everyone involved in the production and consumption of video games.

 

[Oersted]

Brothels are a great way for a game like dishonored to properly set the setting and tone, what are you talking about?

Its an iconic establishment with a certain style, why not use it in the game? Its like saying "why even have crowds wearing the home team's jersey in madden?" Its just an extra touch to set the tone and time

It is curiously always such things which set up the tone.

 

[zeldablue]

The part that really stood out to me in Part 1 as being dishonest was when she was discussing Hitman and mentioned the a level where you have to sneak past two female strippers without them noticing you but she instead decided to portray it as if you were supposed to beat them down, kill them and drag their dead bodies around. The option is there, yes, just as the option is there to do that to any other NPC in the level, but you get penalties for harming innocents.

I mean, what's the point in doing that when there are plenty of real examples available? Heck, she could have just pointed at the level and questioned why it took place in a strip club in the first place.

Yeah...but that's like when you beat up a gay person. It's a hate crime.

If you wanna beat someone up and kill them, they ought to look and act like you or else it could potentially be perceived as something very different. Not to say blacks, gays and women should be protected or invincible. It's just that hatred going in their direction has a different connotation with it, right now. The wound is there and still wide open, so hatred/violence in that direction is often extremely insensitive. Especially since most people are still unaware of how it harms us in real life...

If the women weren't strippers it'd be different.

 

[Takiyah]

I just read the phrase "vicious stereotypes about men" so it's time for me to bow out.

How dare your turn your back on this disenfranchised group.

 

[Sande]

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

As I said, you can argue about the validity of having half naked women in these games, but singling out the possibility to be violent towards them (and getting cash reward for it) when you can do violence to anyone (and get cash reward for it) is just dishonest cherry picking.

The part that really stood out to me in Part 1 as being dishonest was when she was discussing Hitman and mentioned the a level where you have to sneak past two female strippers without them noticing you but she instead decided to portray it as if you were supposed to beat them down, kill them and drag their dead bodies around. The option is there, yes, just as the option is there to do that to any other NPC in the level, but you get penalties for harming innocents.

I mean, what's the point in doing that when there are plenty of real examples available? Heck, she could have just pointed at the level and questioned why it took place in a strip club in the first place.

Precisely.

 

[Christhor]

With the amount of strip clubs and brothels and what-not, one would think that it's naturally intrinsic to video games.

It's so embarrassing for everyone involved in the production and consumption of video games.

That's pretty extreme. It's not like over 50% of video games have strip clubs or brothels in them. There's more than there should be, sure, but you're taking it way too far.

 

[Ikael]

Ok, let me elaborate on my previous posture:

Tropes, stereotypes and the likes are a tool for any writter, a short of a crutch. The better the writter is, the more he can resort to write without them. Thus, the more fleshed out, characterized, tridimensional and human his or her characters will become, and the less trope-y and stereotype-prone they will be.

I deny that this is a specific gender problem, but rather, a writting related problem. A transectional problem, if you like, for character tropes and sterotypes exist applied to every human: from the "happy-go-lucky gay friend" of romantic comedies to the "black / minority as the criminal thug" of police dramas to the "dumb macho male playing rambo" of action movies and a long etc of tropes in the media that are also reflected at videogames.

I don't deny that certain tropes and stereotypes are damaging to women, but if we misdiagnose its cause by pointing out at the nebulous "patriarchy" concept, we could hardly ever solve it. Consequently, I honestly believe its solution passes trought an improvement of videogaming writting quality, rather than awarness per se. Or else, we will end up with... brand new tropes to replace the old ones.

 

[Oersted]

Ok, let me elaborate on my previous posture:

Tropes, stereotypes and the likes are a tool for any writter, a short of a crutch. The better the writter is, the more he can resort to write without them. Thus, the more fleshed out, characterized, tridimensional and human his or her characters will become, and the less trope-y and stereotype-prone they will be.

I deny that this is a specific gender problem, but rather, a writting related problem. A transectional problem, if you like, for character tropes and sterotypes exist applied to every human: from the "happy-go-lucky gay friend" of romantic comedies to the "black / minority as the criminal thug" of police dramas to the "dumb macho male playing rambo" of action movies and a long etc of tropes in the media that are also reflected at videogames.

I don't deny that certain tropes and stereotypes are damaging to women, but if we misdiagnose its cause by pointing out at the nebulous "patriarchy" concept, we could hardly ever solve it. Consequently, I honestly believe its solution passes trought an improvement of videogaming writting quality, rather than awarness per se. Or else, we will end up with... brand new tropes to replace the old ones.

Is patriarchy honestly a nebulous concept for you? Seriously?

 

[SaggyMonkey]

That's pretty extreme. It's not like over 50% of video games have strip clubs or brothels in them. There's more than there should be, sure, but you're taking it way too far.

And yet, I've never seen an interesting game ABOUT brothels or strip clubs. Maybe the time is right!

 

[The Blue Jihad]

It partially undermines her whole video series when she says "look, you can brutally murder this attractive woman in Deus Ex" like it means something. When you can murder anybody in a game, you can't single out a certain group to make a point.

About that...

I'm kind of a monster sometimes...

 

[Zomba13]

About that...

I'm kind of a monster sometimes...

That's fucking disgusting.




Deus Ex let's you brutally murder a woman of colour. Ban this sick filth.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them.

You realize this is a nonsensical and offensive argument, right?

 

[Lime]

That's pretty extreme. It's not like over 50% of video games have strip clubs or brothels in them. There's more than there should be, sure, but you're taking it way too far.

Considering the amount of games cited in this youtube video and their commercial and popular prevalence, it's bothersome to think how many times brothels and strip clubs *AT THE EXPENSE* of other locales. Why is it always a brothel or a strip club? Is there really such a lack of imagination of the developers that they constantly have to resort to this particular trope?

That's fucking disgusting.




Deus Ex let's you brutally murder a woman of colour. Ban this sick filth.

*sigh*

 

[SaggyMonkey]

It's not always a brothel, usually it's a warehouse full of crates.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Are there more brothels in video games than in real life? Sure.

Are there more brothels in video game settings than you would reasonably expect to find in those settings? That depends on the video game, but I'd say any video game with a pre-modern setting can safely include brothels. They've been around for a long, long time in a lot of societies. It's only the modern nation-state with its omnipresent police force that's caused the decline of brothels as a social institution.

Is it generally objectionable to include a brothel in your video game? I don't see why it should be, unless it's also objectionable for there to be a brothel in Game of Thrones or what have you.

Is there no reason to include a brothel in your video game besides base titillation? I think that's unreasonable. Brothels are cool and interesting and we don't get to go to them that often in real life. They seem like a pretty good candidate for being included in video games, actually.

 

[Christhor]

Considering the amount of games cited in this youtube video and their commercial and popular prevalence, it's bothersome to think how many times brothels and strip clubs *AT THE EXPENSE* of other locales. Why is it always a brothel or a strip club? Is there really such a lack of imagination of the developers that they constantly have to resort to this particular trope?

When you're making games that are inspired by real life, how much choice do you have for imaginative settings? I can think of none. A brothel or a strip club is certainly not an imaginative setting, but what is?

 

[MacNille]

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

In a stealth game? That is going against everything that a stealth game is. Why do you think that you get a lower score in hitman when you kill guards and civilians? Because you are not meant to do that. It is not the way of an assassin ffs.

 

[securitypigeon]

Patriarchy isn't an inherently malicious idea. Your comment about stupidity and apathy is entirely coherent with it

'Oppression' isn't usually accidental.

 

[Lime]

When you're making games that are inspired by real life, how much choice do you have for imaginative settings? I can think of none. A brothel or a strip club is certainly not an imaginative setting, but what is?

In real life, there are other locales in urban settings than strip clubs and brothels.

'Oppression' isn't usually accidental.

Please tell me that you're not implying that oppression is deserved?

Being born with a higher level of melanin or an oppressed sex or being born into poverty are certainly accidental circumstances.

 

[Doombacon]

I feel, like always, that she has some decent points but undercuts herself significantly with a handful of bad examples that either are based on abnormal player behavior or things taken out of context.

The point is, theres literally no reason for strip clubs/half naked women everywhere. Why is there a brothel in dishonored? Because the devs wanted you to see naked women and then brutally murder them. The game didn't need a brothel. So many games have strip clubs/brothels just for an excuse to add fanservice.

I'm pretty sure it's in the game because the devs thought it would make for interesting gameplay sneaking through a small, densely populated area that only some of the people in it will actually be alerted to your presence and you might not know if the person you hear in the next room is a patron or a guard.

Additionally, there is also NO positive reinforcement for "brutally murdering" random NPCs, women or otherwise, in Dishonered. In fact the game punishes you by making the game harder down the road.

 

[Christhor]

In real life, there are other locales in urban settings than strip clubs and brothels.

Definitely. Which urban settings aren't often represented in video games, though?

 

[Polioliolio]

Most of those games are about a life of crime, or set during a less civilized era.
Yeah, there's probably going to be a lot of stupid drugs and sex and murder.

I'm curious what she has to say about Mario Galaxy 2 though.

 

[The Technomancer]

'Oppression' isn't usually accidental.

Please tell me that you're not implying that oppression is deserved?

Being born with a higher level of melanin or an oppressed sex or being born into poverty are certainly accidental circumstances.

No, he's saying that because patriarchy is described as oppression the implication is that it has to be malicious. Which I still disagree with. You can oppress a gender, race, or class out of genuine belief in their inferiority that doesn't also entail actual personal hatred or desire to exploit. Qualified women being passed up for jobs because "women belong in the home" isn't malicious in that it doesn't come from a place of actively wanting to cause harm. It is, in fact, a perfect example of ignorance.

 

[Oersted]

"Realism", "artistic freedom", "its escapism", its not supposed to be realistic". There are countless contradicting excuses for objectifying women in these threads. Every time. Its getting boring.

 

[lorebringer]

Also entirely incorrect. I watched the whole video, and understood entirely what she was falsely attempting to dictate.

Virtually every example of negative stereotyping and marginalizing of women is matched, even in her own clips, of negative stereotyping and expendability of men.

I replayed Last of Us just a couple weeks ago. Know how many men I had to kill in that, because they were both expendable and evil? Probably about a billion. Know how many women? Zero, unless you count zambies, and then maybe it was about 10 or so. But zambies can't really be evil, they're just zambying, which is probably why it was acceptable to throw in a sprinkling of girls that were surely wonderful people before they ended up zambies.

Is there an outcry about this kind of violence in videogames, and the lessons that it teaches about male life being utterly expendable while female life would be a tragic, emotion-inducing loss? Not at all.

Her cherry-picked anecdotal examples are pointless, in that she very nearly outweighs them with charicatures of disposable, asshole men in her own clips, without even being required to do your own research for female characters with actual development; all of this not even including the fact that the massive majority of these games are marketed and made for a predominantly-male demographic, which means equal gender representation is not to be expected in the first place.

The main problem with these depictions of women occurring with such frequency is that they are rarely counterbalanaced by actual nuanced depictions of women as people with agency. The legions of faceless video game dudes aren't nearly as egregious because games are full of male characters who are depicted as actual people. Although there is also a tendency to play the male power fantasy character all the time which is symptomatic of the same issue underlying the portrayals of women. Nobody is saying that women should never be depicted as weak or powerless or even as nameless enemies, people are are saying that this is overwhelmingly the depiction that is used and that is the problem.

And arguing that marginalizing women in video games marginalizes them in life is the same argument that violent games create killers, and rock music fosters satanism. Media does not kill people and abuse women, people do, and the route to educating people is not by censoring, or attempting to control, the media that is available to them. Last I checked, people aren't running around shooting up disposable men and hookers in countries that actually have decent gun laws(australia, japan, etc). These places still have violent, sexist media options.

The marginalisation of women in games is a reflection of the marginalisation of women that happens in real life. Just like violence in games is a direct reflection of the fetishism of violence that exists at all levels of human interaction, the choices about portrayals of women and their role in relation to the player says a lot about the way women are viewed by the people that make and play games. One real ramification of the lack of representation of women as real characters is that there are actual real women on GAF and even in this thread who feel like they have a hard time identiying with characters in their media of choice. There's actual marginalisation for you.

 

[Kinyou]

*sigh*

Well, that was kind of her argument with hitman in the last video. Just putting a character in the game's world is apparently already encouraging the player to murder said character.

 

[zeldablue]

No, he's saying that because patriarchy is described as oppression the implication is that it has to be malicious. Which I still disagree with. You can oppress a gender, race, or class out of genuine belief in their inferiority that doesn't also entail actual personal hatred or desire to exploit. Qualified women being passed up for jobs because "women belong in the home" isn't malicious in that it doesn't come from a place of actively wanting to cause harm. It is, in fact, a perfect example of ignorance.

That's uh, benevolent sexism.

Widows in India had to be burned to death on their husbands' pyre. Not because they hated women, but because they believed women should be "loyal."

Good intentions. F*** up consequences.

 

[securitypigeon]

No, he's saying that because patriarchy is described as oppression the implication is that it has to be malicious. Which I still disagree with. You can oppress a gender, race, or class out of genuine belief in their inferiority that doesn't also entail actual personal hatred or desire to exploit. Qualified women being passed up for jobs because "women belong in the home" isn't malicious in that it doesn't come from a place of actively wanting to cause harm. It is, in fact, a perfect example of ignorance.

Even if I agreed with that premise, that's not the explanation of 'patriarchy' championed by Anita and the like. Their feeling is that it is systematic, and not at all random. That's what I object to in these smaller cases; it's an example of her exaggerated feminist ideals.

 

[The Technomancer]

That's uh, benevolent sexism.

Widows in India had to be burned to death on their husbands' pyre. Not because they hated women, but because they believed women should be "loyal."

Good intentions. F*** up consequences.

Sure, my point is that when people talk about "don't chalk up to malice what can be explained by stupidity" that still fits right within the idea of systemic, patriarchal oppression. Malice is either sadistic or knowingly exploitative, while ignorant exploitation is hey, the exact kind of ignorance and stupidity that we're discussing.

Even if I agreed with that premise, that's not the explanation of 'patriarchy' championed by Anita and the like. Their feeling is that it is systematic, and not at all random. That's what I object to in these smaller cases; it's an example of her exaggerated feminist ideals.

Well no...its not random. It systemically effects women. That's about as non-random as it gets. I mean, are you denying the systemic disadvantages women have faced and still do face? If so, well, I'm not even sure where to start

 

[zeldablue]

Sure, my point is that when people talk about "don't chalk up to malice what can be explained by stupidity" that still fits right within the idea of systemic, patriarchal oppression. Malice is either sadistic or knowingly exploitative, while ignorant exploitation is hey, the exact kind of ignorance and stupidity that we're discussing.



Well no...its not random. It systemically effects women. That's about as non-random as it gets

Okay, yeah. I completely agree. It's from a lack of awareness/ignorance.

Though it comes from hidden malice as well. Jealousy, shame, over-protectiveness...claiming. Women do the same thing to men, but they don't exactly get away with it in the same way dudes have and still do.

I mean, veils to hide the shameful bodies of distracting women. Killing women for not being virgins, forcing them into the role of financial liabilities, marrying them off with no consent after their first period, aborting baby girls, acid throwing, raping, murdering baby's mama... etc. It's all out of love, but it's still pretty bad.

 

[Glass Shark]

With the amount of strip clubs and brothels and what-not, one would think that it's naturally intrinsic to video games.

It's so telling that the most common reaction to these scenes seems to be praising the realism of them rather than questioning the need for them. It's like we should take it as read that women must be sexualized in games somehow, so it's best that they do it in a way that reflects reality.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Her reading makes me realize that as much as I dislike game pundits like AVGN and Jim Sterling, their animated or just invested delivery does add a lot to the videos. They don't feel like they're just reading an essay.

On the subject of her ultimate point—that these games aren't about violence against women—she's entirely right, but I don't see why that's bad inherently. It was a criticism levied against Bioshock Infinite—that because the game is about two characters in a fantastic world, ultimately, not the racism that pervades the world, it for some reason shouldn't have touched the subject of race at all. And I just have to disagree with that sentiment entirely. "You can't talk about subject X without treating it like Y" is a failure from the start. Why shouldn't video games have multiple themes like any other work?

The note about how these serve as shorthands to show how evil characters are… well, yeah, that's economy of storytelling. You call it "cheap", I call it "efficient" (if potentially overused.) Is violence against others and sexual violence against women in particular "evil"? I think we all agree it is. So why wouldn't you use that?

Her final point, that rape isn't just done by the big bads or fully reprehensible, is a good one, but doesn't dismiss the plots she discusses—that just suggests that broader representations are appropriate.

Re: Historical integrity

Honestly? I don't think it's absolutely necessary for developers to adhere to it. I'd rather they strive to create something unique and thought provoking to further their ideas, rather than rely on sexist and outdated notions.

I think it's as essential as you want it. If your goal is to actually convey that era, you do have to acknowledge it was a different time. There's a balance between the liberties games will take with any setting and situation to facilitate gameplay, and what is necessary to represent the setting. At what point is "it's historical" is a cop-out from the devs rather than a really considered choice for the integrity of the game? YMMV on that but I think we can all think of examples where it probably was the former rather than the latter.

I dislike media that tends to emphasize aspects of the historical era to try and suggest "we're so much better", because that's just trying to make the present as the best of all possible times which I don't think is an accurate reading of history. We aren't just constantly getting better over time.

 

[inkls]

Okay, yeah. I completely agree. It's from a lack of awareness/ignorance.

Though it comes from hidden malice as well. Jealousy, shame, over-protectiveness...claiming. Women do the same thing to men, but they don't exactly get away with it in the same way dudes have and still do.

I mean, veils to hide the shameful bodies of distracting women. Killing women for not being virgins, forcing them into the role of financial liabilities, marrying them off with no consent, etc. It's all out of love, but it's still pretty bad.

It is pretty bad, but I think its easier to convince people who hurt others unintentionally compared to those who do it intentionally and that its important to see the difference.

 

[unround]

Even if I agreed with that premise, that's not the explanation of 'patriarchy' championed by Anita and the like. Their feeling is that it is systematic, and not at all random. That's what I object to in these smaller cases; it's an example of her exaggerated feminist ideals.

Patriarchy being systemic still doesn't necessitate intentionality on the the part of those who perpetuate it (which is, uh, basically everyone). Artificial cutural values regarding gender are so deeply ingrained within society that they become obvious Truths to the point where people who actively enforce them do not necessarily feel any malice towards those who those values oppress - they believe they are acting for the best of both those who transgress those norms and the overall society. There are those who are actively malicious, of course, but I don't think the system requires it.

 

[securitypigeon]

Sure, my point is that when people talk about "don't chalk up to malice what can be explained by stupidity" that still fits right within the idea of systemic, patriarchal oppression. Malice is either sadistic or knowingly exploitative, while ignorant exploitation is hey, the exact kind of ignorance and stupidity that we're discussing.



Well no...its not random. It systemically effects women. That's about as non-random as it gets. I mean, are you denying the systemic disadvantages women have faced and still do face? If so, well, I'm not even sure where to start

I'm denying the premise that these things are specifically put in place by a male-dominated industry to deliberately besmirch the female gender. That's the important distinction I'm making.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Tedious, pathetic soulless games aimed at adolescent boys. They include this kind of content because it's an easy sell to the target audience - that's all it is, it's about easy money. It's not an artistic choice or statement in the slightest.

It says a lot about the industry that most of the games used in these videos aren't creepy top shelf niche titles, they're AAA mainstream multi-million sellers. Indefensible.

 

[Ponn]

It's so telling that the most common reaction to these scenes seems to be praising the realism of them rather than questioning the need for them. It's like we should take it as read that women must be sexualized in games somehow, so it's best that they do it in a way that reflects reality.

These threads end up just walls yelling at each other but to me this is the bigger question, In an attempt to be more realistic why are certain things chosen to be emulated and what does that say about society. Does media shape society or vice versa? Zelda above listed some pretty horrific things that happen to women but for the most part those are things that don't happen in Western societies where these games are huge and developed. Now im not saying that means nothing negative happens to women here in western society just that instead of being able to sell your daughter off for marriage in GTA you get strip bars.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm denying the premise that these things are specifically put in place by a male-dominated industry to deliberately besmirch the female gender. That's the important distinction I'm making.

"Deliberately" is kind of the key word here. If you mean that most of these people making this stuff aren't going "muahahaha with the creation of this game I am perpetuating cultural misogyny" well yeah, I'm pretty damn sure even Anita is going to agree with that. But again, its possible to be oppressive and alienating or to contribute to the system of patriarchal oppression without some explicit, sadistic desire to do harm to women.

Most times when people exhibit sexist behavior they're not aware that its sexist.

 

[Orayn]

These threads end up just walls yelling at each other but to me this is the bigger question, In an attempt to be more realistic why are certain things chosen to be emulated and what does that say about society. Does media shape society or vice versa?

It's both, as the bolded are not mutually exclusive. Art is the product of an artist who exists in society and is influenced by it, but at the same time it can be used to express the artist's worldview. This, in turn, can exert its own influence on society.

Some art just reflects the way things are without offering much commentary on it. Other art portrays how its creator thinks things ought to be. Plenty of art will do both.