You have something to say about that, say it.
That video's great. The King's claiming her ass is a literal force of nature.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
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You have something to say about that, say it.
That video's great. The King's claiming her ass is a literal force of nature.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
1. Depends on the setting. In a lot of settings it would make no sense whatsoever for there to be gay clubs.
2. Would having gay clubs show up in games really be less objectionable than having brothels show up in games?
Corronchilejano
Member
If there were open world games ambienced in Rome or Greece, do you think there would be a single bath house, let alone a gay brothel, open as sexuality was over there?Imru al-Qays;127152989 said:
It'd sure as hell be "realistic."Imru al-Qays;127152989 said:
Have you atleast meanwhile understood what sexual objectification is?
This is true, but like any statistics is how you're getting your numbers. The problems I have with the ESA's numbers is they don't really break down how they get to them, and for a situation like this where "the games" that are being criticized are what we commonly call AAA or core games, it makes sense to distinguish the demographics. Do I consider Candy Crush as interesting a game to me as Bioshock? No. Is it still legitimately a video game? Yes. Is it really at all what Sarkeesian is focused on? No.
While I understand the difficulty of defining where "core" gamers end and "casual" gamers begin, when we're talking about representation and the power of the free market in these instances it would definitely be a good statistic to inform the topic of discussion. I don't think you can dispute that women are still the minority of players of the the types of games NeoGAF plays, and especially that they are a minority in participating in forums and the games culture like NeoGAF. But that does seem to be shifting, just probably not to the broad degree of the change in all gamers.
I'm unaware of there being any "special" corpses in Bioshock. All the Splicers look the same, and are dressed the same, even in the brothel. She seems to be mostly critiquing the game for its one-off sexual assault vignette and posed corpses in the Pink Pearl, though if you have an issue with that I think it'd be a broader issue with the game as a whole (the character design, for instance.) I can't recall any "posed" characters that are sexually alluring, especially in Bioshock 2—the most scantily clad woman has a face like Mileena.
Also talking about the characters as disposable ignores, for instance, the audio diaries that *do* flesh out those anonymous prostitutes, although they are certainly irrelevant to the overall narrative (though my experience was enriched by listening to them.)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Imru al-Qays;127152989 said:
It depends entirely on implementation. But the point of bringing up gay clubs isn't to argue that there should be more gay clubs necessarily, but rather to argue against the whole "there's brothels and strippers because its realistic" line of thought.
Imru al-Qays;127152989 said:
1. If its a real world setting or trying to emulate a real world setting, where gay clubs would be outlawed this makes sense
2.The inclusion of gay clubs, would counter balance the overwhelming amount of games, only showing women in a sexual light. There's nothing wrong with strip clubs in games, its them in the context of the overall video game medium that makes them objectionable.
Bomber Bob
Banned
Jesus Christ that scene from no more heroes was brutal. Who da fuck authorized that
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i always knew the definition. that's the easy part. It's knowing where it begins and ends that's debated. the thread is a good read, id recommend it if you'd like to broaden your understanding.
I'd say it's more along the lines of examining a particular portion of the market, asking questions about why it has a particular gender breakdown, and examining what effect that's having on the contents of the games that demographic buys.
Well, atleast something, even though you still obviously don't see where objectification starts.
It's worth pointing out that these are cited in a way that (in many cases) strips them of necessary context. Some of them are certainly cringe-worthy sexist garbage, but I'd check your assumptions about the games involved if you're being exposed to them second-hand. Imagine if someone cited a list of behaviors in "Pride and Prejudice" in a discussion about sexist literature. Inclusion isn't always encouragement.
That being said, I absolutely agree about developers seeing this sort of feedback.
From 2010
Of course some stuff will have changed over the last 4 years, but I imagine that the male demographic still dominates the console market.
Polioliolio
Member
Peach's role as mostly a damsel in distress has more to do with how little the Mario formula ever changes. Nintendo doesn't make cultural statements They make simple games on simple premises that work. The legendary damsel in distress story is as old as time, and always relevant to the human species and how we behave. The story could have been about Mario's sandwich being stolen by Bowser, but that doesn't captivate us or sound as villainous a plot as kidnapping a loved one.
Up until recently, the biggest changes you'd see in a Mario game were what new suit he'd be wearing and what the new platform could add graphically.
Mario, Luigi, etc, have had very little character until Martinet started voicing the group. Even then they're just a bunch of goofy cartoony characters. Peach is probably the most human character among them.
If you want to know why there aren't more roles for Peach, it's simply because Mario is almost always the main character. The others, until more recently have mostly been supporting characters at best, even Luigi, whose personality until Luigi's Mansion or so was 'he jumps high and is a sidekick'.
The rest of these games focus on violence, betrayal, sex, in old eras or criminal culture.. Interesting stuff for both men and women, and presented in excess, but these are clearly male designed, male focused games. That doesn't make them wrong. There are women's media designed to focus to the female demographic. No need to declare war on that. We don't need to fuse all media into a single genre for the sake of pleasing every human being. In this case, they're trying to appeal to the male audience. If a woman is presented as a victim, that's only to encourage the player to stop the criminal from having his way. That 'Whore stabbing' in Red Dead is certainly supposed to be a punishment for the player just standing there. No one wants to see that, so of course the player is encouraged to rescue her. It happens over and over again because it's a game, and there are limited activities that may occur. This is one of those 'events'.. It's this game's version of Spiderman's 'return the balloon to the child' event. Uncreative, maybe... more variety could be used sure, but abuse is real, especially I'm presuming, in the times that Red Dead takes place..
I'm sure the idea is to shock the player and make them want to intervene.
Well that kind of goes to my point though then because to me games like CoD, GTA and even Assassins Creed to an extent are an extension of western culture. That's why its easy to point to other forms of media as well and see a pattern like the latest Michael Bay movie or TV. In a capitalistic society ran by profits its hard to exact change. To put it more bluntly I guess if you went to Rockstar or Activision and said you need to change this and this and this because you are wrong for pushing these things they are going to nod and go back to counting their money. I know it sounds bad and its not an excuse but its just the cynic and realist in me.
I love Japanese games but I do find your comment funny considering the shitstorm the Criminal Girls thread created. I have a feeling you are mostly talking about Nintendo games and those platforms. Which if so I would point to how poorly they are doing in western territories right now. Again i'm not saying i'm for the situation, I don't even play those type of games being discussed and play mostly JRPG's and Japanese games (which have their own tropes that are questionable) and I understand the need for wanting to start somewhere to enact change.
I actually agree, I guess its a little bit of that social responsibility reasoning. Taking a bit from above I would have to point to how weak the idea of social responsibility is in western culture, or at least America right now. At several points in history art held heavy influence over the development in society but we are in a capitalistic society now that is ran by profits. I think in this instance if we are going to say games are art it would have to extend to other media that holds similar influence like movies and tv. I think in all those cases you have examples of work trying to break out of the mold, unfortunately if they don't break out to commercial success then it will be considered a failure.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
oooh, snappy.
yet, you obviously don't realize that where objectification starts and ends is a debated subject that heavily varies on a case by case basis.
but don't let that stop you from feeling righteous.
The topic of sexual-ized violence with women in media is a classic talking point in gender equality, and I'm glad the video took this lens to look at the games industry. I thought the video overall was solid and did a good job of this.
While talking about the merits of the video with others over lunch (defending the merits...) what came up often was "well what's the solution then". I would really enjoy if anyone, preferably some combo of dev experience / basic knowledge gender equality issues, did a talk / panel / video, where they took specific examples from Sarkeesian's videos and do a "re-work" from a design perspective. This is what I thought about while eating a bagel.
While talking about the merits of the video with others over lunch (defending the merits...) what came up often was "well what's the solution then". I would really enjoy if anyone, preferably some combo of dev experience / basic knowledge gender equality issues, did a talk / panel / video, where they took specific examples from Sarkeesian's videos and do a "re-work" from a design perspective. This is what I thought about while eating a bagel.
theshape31
Member
Absolutely. It was an incredible point that brought the entire episode's theme into perspective. It was so well done... outstanding work by Anita.
In Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario 3D World Peach is a playable character. Both games are more than fine. There is no need for a overly reliance on the trope.
It has been mentioned to death in this thread, but the past had open homosexuality, pederasty, among other things. These things are if all, barely included. For obvious reasons.
Orniletter
Banned
I don´t disagree with your point...but the bolded is not true
Super Mario Bros. US / 2 had a playable Peach.
I think if this video series gave examples of how to "fix the problem", it would be seen by even more people as an overreach into "censorship" and encroaching on the creativity of the developers. There is a line that criticism like this has to tip-toe. Criticism can be a healthy thing to listen and respond to, but I personally think it's better if it's left to the creator to figure out how to correct it.
From 2010
Of course some stuff will have changed over the last 4 years, but I imagine that the male demographic still dominates the console market.
Hate 3D bar graphs... so hard to read >.<;
It's so easy to forget about WoW being a big hit with ladies but it definitely is. And look what happens when games are inclusive and get men and women playing together: all kind of people meet and bond over them and get married and stuff.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
In my experience RPGs are definitely the "core gamer" genre with the most cross-gender appeal. basically all the women I know who play console or PC games (and I know a lot) have RPGs as their favorite genre, whether its stuff like Skyrim, one girl I know who's a huge Baldur's Gate fangirl, another who has a ton of nostalgia for Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest, whatever
Part of this could just be that RPGs are awesome, but I'm willing to bet that part of it is also that RPGs traditionally have the most robust character options as a result of the increased emphasis on "you the player exploring a world" and therefore are the most welcoming if a woman wants to play as, well, a woman.
I wonder what actually makes WoW more inclusive. I bet Blizzard is guilty of quite a lot of those tropes that Anita discusses.
Still looking for a good source, but I find that MMOs in general have a better gender balance than many genres. Some say it's the strong customization and social aspects, and the fact that a lot of people play with their significant other or even extended family.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
That's the thing: the simple presence of tropes doesn't mean anything. This is the problem I have with her videos (in addition to the fact that she's a sloppy researcher). Almost everything that appears in any narrative medium is a trope on some level.
Sometimes tropes are used in ways that are objectionable, sometimes tropes are used in ways that are alienating to large groups of people, and sometimes they just aren't. There's an argument to be made for and against a lot of the usages of tropes in her videos, and it would be great if she would actually explain to us why she thinks particular usages are problematic, and how she thinks they could be made less problematic. But that's not what she's doing.
This is basically another video about how most AAA games have shit storyliens and do a terrible job of trying to be "mature." It also highlights how the limitations of some gameplay mechanics combined with those attempts at maturity makes for particularly creepy images.
The reason the "attacks on women" events in games like GTA, Watch_Dogs, or Red Dead essentially look like sideshow attractions is because that's more or less all the developers can do with the technology at hand. They either can't or haven't tried yet to write AI sophisticated enough for anything to happen other than that one scripted scene that's repeated over and over every time you see a woman get attacked in the street. The only open world games I've seen come close to that kind of AI are Bethesda's games where you commonly see NPCs getting into random events with each other. The very subject matter at hand in the scripted events in games like Rockstar's games or games following them however still shows a failure of the writing. Maybe a big issue is developers trying to write these characters and occurrences to account for player interaction. It's easy to say they should make interactions with characters like prostitutes in GTA more sophisticated and nuanced, but you have to admit writing that kind of stuff for a video game is completely uncharted territory. We're seeing some RPG writers trying to get it right with romances, and they're getting better, if only slightly. Perhaps the developers of many of these "mature" games should be trying harder.
The reason the "attacks on women" events in games like GTA, Watch_Dogs, or Red Dead essentially look like sideshow attractions is because that's more or less all the developers can do with the technology at hand. They either can't or haven't tried yet to write AI sophisticated enough for anything to happen other than that one scripted scene that's repeated over and over every time you see a woman get attacked in the street. The only open world games I've seen come close to that kind of AI are Bethesda's games where you commonly see NPCs getting into random events with each other. The very subject matter at hand in the scripted events in games like Rockstar's games or games following them however still shows a failure of the writing. Maybe a big issue is developers trying to write these characters and occurrences to account for player interaction. It's easy to say they should make interactions with characters like prostitutes in GTA more sophisticated and nuanced, but you have to admit writing that kind of stuff for a video game is completely uncharted territory. We're seeing some RPG writers trying to get it right with romances, and they're getting better, if only slightly. Perhaps the developers of many of these "mature" games should be trying harder.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
While I agree, can you imagine how much the internet would explode?Imru al-Qays;127159829 said:
Lol, yeah Nintendo has been screwing up for a veeery long time.
But Activision and Rockstar are bond to the same fate. Their budgets are higher and they're production is unsustainable, and there install base on next gen is smaller, and their fanbase is more and more easily bored. (And growing up rapidly.)
So I think anything is possible. When a company starts falling they immediately track where they think the next lump of cash can be found. Nintendo's been banking on putting Mario's face on everything and it's not working. The "Mii" franchises are dead too now.
Though there's a good chance Mario Kart Wii and Wii Sports probably sold more than all the GTAs combined.
Also I don't really play games that look explicitly anime-esque...
I suspect part of it is that the bullshit that is in there is so easily ignorable since you're too busy chatting on vent with your cool pals from all over the world to spend any time looking at quest dialog. And unlike most single player games, WoW very rarely hijacks control into a cutscene of Dumb Bullshit.
'Cuz Blizzard are often terrible with their misogyny. Star Craft II oooooh boy what a mess.
Imru’ al-Qays;127159829 said:
You're still talking like her target is games-as-texts, but it's clearly the culture of the people of power who make and play games. It's clearly the case that tropes and stereotypes are used in games more often carelessly than thoughtfully.
If I don't like quicktime events, and I make a compilation of quicktime events and describe how I think they make good games not as good, should I instead of just shut up and not purchased those games?
A bunch of people saying, "these parts of games are annoying / lazy / gross / whatever " IS the market in action. That's the market working.
Imru al-Qays;127159829 said:
The purpose of these videos is not analysis every every little thing in a game that could be considered sexist, but to identify trends in how games portray women. Tropes are not inherently bad, and in some of her examples probably work in the context of the games, but that really isn't the point. The point she is trying to establish is that game designers keep going back to the same tropes over and over again when they write female characters.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
It doesn't matter what her target is: simply splicing a bunch of tropes together into a video means nothing besides "hey look tropes." If she wants people to use tropes more thoughtfully it's not enough to simply point out that they exist. You can't have an expectation that a work of art should be completely devoid of tropes. Explaining what exactly is problematic about these specific usages, and just as importantly what is not problematic, would be more helpful for literally everyone.
I understand that Sarkeesian does not think she needs to analyze anything. I'm arguing that this is a ludicrously unambitious way to approach a critical endeavor. Tropes are not inherently harmful. Sometimes it's self-evident why a given usage of a trope is harmful, but other times it isn't, and it's those other times that are much more important to understand clearly. I keep going back to the Dragon Age city elf origin because it's what stuck out at me the most, but what exactly does she think is problematic about this scene? What would she have had the devs do differently? Similarly with the prostitutes getting beat up in Red Dead: what would she have the game do differently? Remove the prostitutes? Or is there a way to have prostitutes in your western without being Part of the Problem?
Corronchilejano
Member
You can create women and customize pretty much everything from them. Female armor isn't too bad either, and there's plenty of female representation.
Thanks. I suppose it should pretty much be the same. Not much has changed.
I know, that's why I said it's just to point the trend out. And yes, Mario 2, how could I forget.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Didn't the first BioShock start "shortly after" a gigantic New Year's Eve party? I recall a few audio logs recorded during the festivities and some of them even capture the start of the carnage. What the player sees in the game is basically a perfectly preserved snapshot of the best and worst of times in Rapture. In a city of ultimate freedom and ultimate excess, with a civil war that comes to a head at the most decadent party of the year...there isn't going to be much modesty among the ruins. Would we expect the citizens or splicers to change into something a bit less revealing before the killing? Or, if the world/society happened to end and you were in a Super Las Vegas at a ludicrously excessive party, what would you expect to see in the aftermath of most of the population going completely crazy?
This was the only example that I found myself really taking significant issue with. BioShock is very heavily narrative and theme-driven, even in the "bleedin ghosts" visions. It isn't a glorification or window dressing flavoring during those visions. It's a very harsh critique.
This was the only example that I found myself really taking significant issue with. BioShock is very heavily narrative and theme-driven, even in the "bleedin ghosts" visions. It isn't a glorification or window dressing flavoring during those visions. It's a very harsh critique.
Not going to say too much on the matter as there are far too many people willing to take offence at the slightest provocation without the need to understand context or perspective.
This is a good video that lays out a very concise problem in modern games.
However, I find the constant use of 'patriarchy' to be irksome and exhausting, the problem is far too complex to be summed up in one word.
The problem with this video is the feminist slant, it is a perspective that often warps the argument and seeks to create a focal point of anger i.e Patriarchy.
I can feel a rant coming so I'll cut this short;
The medium of games tend to borrow heavily from other properties in other mediums, film, books, literature, the problems suggested are rampant in these works of fiction and have become rife in popular culture an general social consciousness.
The fact of the matter is that most of Ms Sarkeesian's (sp) grievances can easily apply to the opposite sex, I can't count the amount of dudes I've killed, perhaps a small country's worth?
surely enough to count as a Mass Genocide.
but overall a good video but could be far more effective without the feminist slant and perhaps a discussion or suggestion moving forward, this is something 'Extra Credits' do very well.
However I will give props for the example of Papo & Yo on how to approach themes not usually associated with games.
This is a good video that lays out a very concise problem in modern games.
However, I find the constant use of 'patriarchy' to be irksome and exhausting, the problem is far too complex to be summed up in one word.
The problem with this video is the feminist slant, it is a perspective that often warps the argument and seeks to create a focal point of anger i.e Patriarchy.
I can feel a rant coming so I'll cut this short;
The medium of games tend to borrow heavily from other properties in other mediums, film, books, literature, the problems suggested are rampant in these works of fiction and have become rife in popular culture an general social consciousness.
The fact of the matter is that most of Ms Sarkeesian's (sp) grievances can easily apply to the opposite sex, I can't count the amount of dudes I've killed, perhaps a small country's worth?
surely enough to count as a Mass Genocide.
but overall a good video but could be far more effective without the feminist slant and perhaps a discussion or suggestion moving forward, this is something 'Extra Credits' do very well.
However I will give props for the example of Papo & Yo on how to approach themes not usually associated with games.
Corronchilejano
Member
How many of those were:
a. Prostitutes.
b. Someone's significant other who's only descript characteristic is being the significant other.
c. Appearing as sexy as possible with no other context.
There's a lot more than mere violence against the opposite sex. It's the use of these to set a mood that's way too overused.
So if we know people are attracted to food, sex and danger, why are we calling out a combination of the two?
This just seems as base as it gets really.
(interesting video, but I was only able to watch the first halfish, so if this is addressed there I'll see when I finish the rest of the video later)
This just seems as base as it gets really.
(interesting video, but I was only able to watch the first halfish, so if this is addressed there I'll see when I finish the rest of the video later)
Imru’ al-Qays;127162979 said:
You keep coming back to Dragon Age but you haven't actually read it for us. There's nothing in that sequence that even considers the "drop dead gorgeous" thing. It's absolutely a careless appeal to that trope which is itself a very ugly idea.
And she explains why it's an ugly idea. These games in concert articulate this idea that Telegraphically Evil Dudes lust after women's bodies divorced from the woman herself, be she dead or perhaps unconscious. But that's not a useful model of the world. Not Obviously Evil Dudes spike drinks have sex with unconscious drunk/drugged women all the time.
It's appropriate to read these scenes from different games in context with one another because that's how we experience them. I can't silo off all my experiences of Dragon Age and all my experiences of Whatever Else and not consider the one in conversation with the other. And neither do developers. All these games she's talking about are not outsider art, they're all obviously referencing and homaging to the broader cultural fabric. So sure, it would be weird to take as an example a game that specifically criticizes or at least examines this shared "drop dead gorgeous" meme and call it part of the problem. But Dragon Age doesn't do that, unless you want to show me how you read it such that it does.
"But what are the solutions tho?" is so tired. It's not incumbent on her to rewrite all stories so they're cool. "This is a bad way" is a sufficiently valuable claim.
Which I'm pretty sure is why she never says "this is the only necessary reading of the work". But it's one aspect that does need to be read to understand the work. You can't read a thing without some lens. Here she takes the feminist lens. There's a bunch of things from all these works we could examine from a Marxist lens and from a Postcolonial lens and from a ---. But that's a huge scope for a project. She's leaving the rest for other people. We can't understand these works except together, her's is one contribution to that tapestry of understanding.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
And so what, the solution is to not have Obviously Evil Dudes lusting after women? Every rapist character needs to be in some way sympathetic, so as to educate men that you can't always tell a rapist from his mannerisms? Or since both of these alternatives are problematic is the solution to simply not talk about rape at all? I'm not sure that's a useful model of the world either. It certainly doesn't seem any more useful than the one it's replacing.
Expecting that a cultural critic would be able to offer some sort of way to address her own concerns isn't "tired," it's reasonable. There is absolutely no value in collecting a bunch of snippets of tropes and then lumping them together and declaring them to be problematic just because they're tropes and tropes are problematic.
Glass Shark
Banned
As exhausting as these threads can be, I'm really glad NeoGAF has created a place for honest discussion and debate about this video series that doesn't just devolve into "lol Anita is a scam artist and she stole ur moneyzzz"
So thanks, NeoGAF mods!
So thanks, NeoGAF mods!
Lol. There is not a "the solution". There's not one clean way to portray some phenomenon. That's the whole point. When it scales out like this it becomes a something else. Any one of these games is sort of harmless on it's own. *A* Snidely Whiplash is satisfying to destroy and a fine model for some things some times. A preponderance of Snidely Whiplashes is both not satisfying any more and starts to articulate a poor model for this thing this time. The solution is "recognize that Snidely Whiplash means something More right now and use him if you mean to invoke that something More".
Imru’ al-Qays;127172123 said:
Criticizing structural/thematic pitfalls is different from something like editing grammar. It's a fine line between pointing out a problematic element and declaring what the author should have done. It's preposterous to dismiss the process of substantiating a medium-wide problem because they didn't also presume to "solve" that problem in particular works. Crossing that line into editing their intent would be so easily perceived as insolent that it might as well be a trap.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
The problem is that there's no real distinction between there not being one clean way to portray some phenomenon and there not being any way that is clean to portray it. There comes a point when watching these videos that the observer begins to have the suspicion that there is essentially no portrayal that isn't in some way problematic. And if everything is problematic then what's the point of trying to not be problematic? You're back at square one, basically doing whatever you want.
