New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)

Riposte said:
On one hand this makes plenty of sense on a personal level, about any topic really, but I can't help but think when said like this it runs contrary to any attempt to make the subject any less polarizing, such as bringing up awareness as an end goal (as someone did earlier in this thread) instead of some type of direct change, which is was what I was thinking of in the first place. I sense a similar incompatibility when someone says the problem is that an arguably flawed practice is simply used too much or is too common, but the language and reasoning that is employed makes it seem than any example is too much or that the only examples should be those that pretty much reverse the entire practice into something that shaped around being on message with an ideology, effectively the same as the former case. At the same time, as strongly as some people are willing to share how they feel about these practices and the context (or "culture") they are being used in, it only makes sense that they give no quarter. From this, there is a sense of inconsistency, if not dishonesty, in more amicable situations.
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it really depends on the content, i think. a lot of this stuff wouldn't seem nearly as bad if it were far less common, but scenes like the one she pointed out in god of war 3 would be gross and despicable no matter what.

edit: long-term if a game designer shows a clear and consistent pattern of throwing shitty sexist tropes into their games even after being made aware of reasonable complaints, i don't think i would feel compelled to write up a critique thread every time they release something new. though ultimately if society ever gets to the point where people are more aware of and sensitive about minority issues that kind of stuff will be extremely niche to begin with.
 
aeolist said:
it really depends on the content, i think. a lot of this stuff wouldn't seem nearly as bad if it were far less common, but scenes like the one she pointed out in god of war 3 would be gross and despicable no matter what.

edit: long-term if a game designer shows a clear and consistent pattern of throwing shitty sexist tropes into their games even after being made aware of reasonable complaints, i don't think i would feel compelled to write up a critique thread every time they release something new. though ultimately if society ever gets to the point where people are more aware of and sensitive about minority issues that kind of stuff will be extremely niche to begin with.
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I think it would be a lot less of a problem if narrative in realistic games were not so terrible on average. I mean honestly, she could have had no commentary at all, and just show video's to show that realistic games do a shitty job at making violence make sense in terms of objectives and its relationship to improving the story(or vise versa, the story complimenting the violence).

MrBtongue does a great job highlighting what I'm talking about.
 
Orayn said:
Video games in general are too hung up on violence, since shooting people is a lot easier to simulate and turn into detailed, involving game mechanics than stuff like negotiation, relationships, scientific discoveries, art, etc.

Hopefully developers experimenting with non-action-movie premises will lead to a corresponding increase in the diversity of protagonists and a general reduction in cliches.
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Yeah, this is what I mean by begging the question. Developers so often start with the premise "well there's got to be lots of violence", then back in to a setting to motivate that violence. People talk about "well what do you expect, the premise of the game is the Old West so of course there's brothels", but really the premise of the game is murder and everything else is constructed to support that.

Which is why these projects almost always fall apart under any scrutiny. Games present situations where they think they've motivated violence but they so often haven't, especially at scale. "Murder aggressors" is a morally and politically bankrupt enterprise. "It's self/other defense though!!" doesn't work when you're in the sixteenth situation where self defense requires you murder twenty dudes. That's why Nathan Drake is such a sociopath. Murdering people takes a toll on well-adjusted people, a healthy person in his shoes would either quit the whole tomb raiding enterprise or have a psychotic breakdown.

It's sort of how I think about South Park. "It's satire tho!!" almost never holds water in that show. Like sure, sometimes they're "using satire" to lampoon anti-Semitism. But really, Cartman is saying horrifically anti-Semitic things so frequently--and with expectation that the audience laughs at it--that it becomes normalized. Eventually people just start talking about "secret Jew gold" out in the world because all the shock's worn off. Games (writ large) overuse abuse of woman as an excuse to overuse violence against men and end up desensitizing us to both.

I think all those ideas are what sits behind this "Women as Background Decoration" series. She talks explicitly about using NPC violence against women as a means to justifying PC violence. She's mainly concerned with indicting the violence against women, but I'll go ahead and indict the whole institution.
 
Eidan said:
I just imagined you reading YouTube comments, stroking your chin as you pondered over the thoughtful responses, and said to yourself, "Thank god for the YouTube comments section. Truly a bastion of civil, intelligent discourse."
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lmao

Phat Michael said:
So I pose a question and get instantly attacked with sarcastic comments from her fans, even though I didn't say anything negative about her at all. Now I see why I shouldn't bother posting in these types of threads. There is no objectivity here.
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Actually, I made a legit suggestion. You asked how someone can provide feedback if she disables Youtube comments; I told you to use the Contact page on her site and write your constructive feedback to her.

The sarcastic quip was because it seems preposterous to me that it wouldn't be your first idea of providing feedback, and that instead you would rely on Youtube comments. So yeah, I'm not sorry for that, even if you want to pretend at being outraged.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Actually, I made a legit suggestion. You asked how someone can provide feedback if she disables Youtube comments; I told you to use the Contact page on her site and write your constructive feedback to her.

The sarcastic quip was because it seems preposterous to me that it wouldn't be your first idea of providing feedback, and that instead you would rely on Youtube comments. So yeah, I'm not sorry for that, even if you want to pretend at being outraged.
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Not to mention that there's nothing barring anyone from making response videos on Youtube itself.
 
The reason the "youtube comments" reason gets laughed at is because it seems willfully ignorant. Everyone knows why they are disabled. If you've been on the internet for a while you also know that youtube is not good for discussion. Most actual conversation about things like these videos take place on social media, places like reddit, or the blogosphere. And that's every topic really. The conversation for most topics moved from youtube a long time ago, whether comments were allowed or not. It's a common tactic used by people on the other side of the fence, and they know they're being intellectually dishonest when they use it. They know it doesn't mean anything, but use it anyway.

Maybe you're not willfully ignorant about it, but most people are. See Jon Tron, who said it recently and then went on to his buddy Totalbiscuit's podcast the very same day. Totalbiscuit also doesn't allow comments on his videos, and he talks about far less volatile things. And he should do it, really. Youtube comments are a cesspool.
 
YouTube comments are highly underrated, top rated comments in particular, but not for reasons that would in any way help this idea of enlightened debate.

I thought this topic was banned at this point, but I'll just say, nothing is really stopping you from having a more effective debate than one that could be hosted in a comments section. There are people who have made their own YouTube videos countering Sarkeesian and for better or worse have gotten a lot of attention and praise for it. How can you figure you could do better in the comments as opposed to efforts like that? It's really a non-issue no matter how you look at it. Especially from a YouTube personality like JonTron, who can just make his own videos to present his case and get tons of people to listen to him.
 
Messofanego said:
Has this been posted?

Bioshock 2 developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman) reflected:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408
ibjmcIcwllopWt.png

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400
ijW0Xd3ySmQmO.png
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Oh my god they're being censored!!1!
 
Dicer said:
I do not condone these actions let me put that out in the forefront...

She posts these videos as a one sided discussion, there is no way to counter them, she disables ratings/comments removes opposing twitter comments so on and so forth. Even talking about her here is walking in a very heavily laden mine-field.

I think that if she would at least try to let some sort of discussion happen, that something like this could be avoided....yes the internet is full of angry mobs and irrational assholes, but putting a leash on them isn't going to do much good, someone is gonna chew through that leash...
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I totally agree. I remember hearing something about her blocking the comments on the actual videos... but what choice does she have when the threats are coming from youtube? youtube comments are the fully realized evil potential of our minds.

I guess one solution would be is if she started a website with a forum and at the end of each video she redirects them to the forum to further discuss the points that she has made.
 
Damerman said:
I totally agree. I remember hearing something about her blocking the comments on the actual videos... but what choice does she have when the threats are coming from youtube? youtube comments are the fully realized evil potential of our minds.

I guess one solution would be is if she started a website with a forum and at the end of each video she redirects them to the forum to further discuss the points that she has made.
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Totalbiscuit does that with his subreddit.
 
Damerman said:
I totally agree. I remember hearing something about her blocking the comments on the actual videos... but what choice does she have when the threats are coming from youtube? youtube comments are the fully realized evil potential of our minds.

I guess one solution would be is if she started a website with a forum and at the end of each video she redirects them to the forum to further discuss the points that she has made.
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Good luck moderating that shit.
 
Sarkeesian Tweeted an example of some of the mistreatment she's gotten through social media after the release of the newest video. As much as I think expanding the reach of that sort of thing is a mistake, the reaction is still unbelievable. Absolutely monstrous. Working with that as the background "noise" to ongoing work takes incredible fortitude.
 
Lime said:
Good luck moderating that shit.
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If she is going to take a huge undertaking such as bringing to light the misrepresentation of the second half of humanity in, arguably, THE biggest entertainment medium, she definitely needs a team of editors, researchers, consultants and any other valuable human asset that can help her fully communicate her criticisms. She can't do this on her own. and i would go as far as saying that this team can't be anonymous. They need to be as "in the spot light" as she is. meaning, they need to be properly introduced to her audience, guest star in sarkesians videos where they give their opinion, whether it agrees with sarkesian's or not.
 
I understand disagreeing with her videos because I have issues with them myself.

But harassing her, writing things like "you're a lying cunt and I'm gonna kill you"... you're only proving her right.
 
Ok, so I just couldn't watch it more than 10 minutes because there is something in this kind of texts that bothers me.

I understand (and I'm on that side) if we criticize women portrayed sexualized beign used to the benefits of the player as currency or just because "tits and ass".

But if a game portray something that happens in the real world, why would it be bad? There are man that brutally murder women, being wife, partner or prostitutes, shouldn't we stand against that? shouldn't it be something good if a game makes you despise such acts?

The example of RDR, when the mexican is beating the prostitute and is selling it to the player. Isn't this the XIX century? didn't this happened? Ok, we can say that you should just jump there and kick the man's ass, but we are portraying something that used to happen 100 years ago!

There is a difference between promoting things and just portraying them. The first is always happening, and should be stoped. The second is a way to make people aware that these things happen.
 
Serpens007 said:
Ok, so I just couldn't watch it more than 10 minutes because there is something in this kind of texts that bothers me.

I understand (and I'm on that side) if we criticize women portrayed sexualized beign used to the benefits of the player as currency or just because "tits and ass".

But if a game portray something that happens in the real world, why would it be bad? There are man that brutally murder women, being wife, partner or prostitutes, shouldn't we stand against that? shouldn't it be something good if a game makes you despise such acts?

The example of RDR, when the mexican is beating the prostitute and is selling it to the player. Isn't this the XIX century? didn't this happened? Ok, we can say that you should just jump there and kick the man's ass, but we are portraying something that used to happen 100 years ago!

There is a difference between promoting things and just portraying them. The first is always happening, and should be stoped. The second is a way to make people aware that these things happen.
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The vast majority of your questions are actually addressed, particularly in the second half of the video.
 
Serpens007 said:
There is a difference between promoting things and just portraying them. The first is always happening, and should be stoped. The second is a way to make people aware that these things happen.
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This isn't what she (or anyone) is really saying. She's talking about in the context of it providing lazy characterization for villains and motivation for heroes. Need an objective? Here's a mustache twirler complete with maniacal laugh that likes to beat women, orphans and puppies (she specifically mentions the kick the dog trope).
 
Serpens007 said:
Ok, so I just couldn't watch it more than 10 minutes because there is something in this kind of texts that bothers me.

I understand (and I'm on that side) if we criticize women portrayed sexualized beign used to the benefits of the player as currency or just because "tits and ass".

But if a game portray something that happens in the real world, why would it be bad? There are man that brutally murder women, being wife, partner or prostitutes, shouldn't we stand against that? shouldn't it be something good if a game makes you despise such acts?
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Something existing in the real world doesn't automatically make its inclusion in a game 100% justified and reasonable, as games are often anything but realistic despite selectively using some real elements.

Example: Michael Bay's Transformers movies depict real things in the form of cars, cities, explosions, soldiers, etc. but a scene showing a human being tortured by a Decepticon in a brutal, bloody fashion would still be extremely out of place because it would clash with the tone and content set by the rest of the movie.

Serpens007 said:
The example of RDR, when the mexican is beating the prostitute and is selling it to the player. Isn't this the XIX century? didn't this happened? Ok, we can say that you should just jump there and kick the man's ass, but we are portraying something that used to happen 100 years ago!
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Again, this is a weird example of trying to have things both ways: RDR is largely inspired by Spaghetti Westerns. Despite being viewed as a "gritty" aesthetic, those films were still highly stylized and existed in their own little piece of pseudo-history, so the argument that something happened in the real Old West doesn't automatically fly.

Serpens007 said:
There is a difference between promoting things and just portraying them. The first is always happening, and should be stoped. The second is a way to make people aware that these things happen.
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True enough, but it's on developers to make sure their portrayals make sense in context, and aren't gratuitously tacked on in a way that conflicts with the rest of the work. (I'm not saying this in reference to any specific game, just as a generality.)
 
Jesus christ, those tweets... what a pathetic, wretched loser. What is wrong with these people?
Serpens007 said:
Ok, so I just couldn't watch it more than 10 minutes because there is something in this kind of texts that bothers me.

I understand (and I'm on that side) if we criticize women portrayed sexualized beign used to the benefits of the player as currency or just because "tits and ass".

But if a game portray something that happens in the real world, why would it be bad? There are man that brutally murder women, being wife, partner or prostitutes, shouldn't we stand against that? shouldn't it be something good if a game makes you despise such acts?

The example of RDR, when the mexican is beating the prostitute and is selling it to the player. Isn't this the XIX century? didn't this happened? Ok, we can say that you should just jump there and kick the man's ass, but we are portraying something that used to happen 100 years ago!

There is a difference between promoting things and just portraying them. The first is always happening, and should be stoped. The second is a way to make people aware that these things happen.
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All your questions are answered in the video, which you would know if you had bothered watching the whole thing.
 
Toxi said:
Joke post, right?

Right?

Please tell me you don't seriously think criticism is "not much better" than censorship.
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Shame, not criticism. No artist should be "embarrassed" by previous works. Learn from it, grow from it, but don't feel ashamed of it.
 
stonesak said:
Shame, not criticism. No artist should be "embarrassed" by previous works.
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Why not? Sometimes stuff you wrote in the past is so bad or cringeworthy, it is embarrassing.
Learn from it, grow from it, but don't feel ashamed of it.
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Those things are not mutually exclusive. The Bioshock 2 creators were doing all of that, and there's nothing wrong with that. They look back at what they wrote, said "oh wow what were we thinking, okay, we'll do better next time". Cool, good for them?
 
I didn't watch the first video because I didn't care

i'm 7min in this one and it kinda feels like propaganda to me.

It's a bunch of cherrypicked moments in video games showed one after the other... isn't that the exact definition of demagogy?

i'm not against feminism or anything, i'm just confused to why this thing gets so much attention, this is garbage
 
imbask said:
I didn't watch the first video because I didn't care

i'm 7min in this one and it kinda feels like propaganda to me.

It's a bunch of cherrypicked moments in video games showed one after the other... isn't that the exact definition of demagogy?

i'm not against feminism, i'm just confused to why this thing gets so much attention
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It's not cherry picking. It's showing a specific trend within several big name, lauded video games that goes largely unnoticed. I also don't know why people don't just finish the video. Find out if she makes an ultimate point, or answers your questions before coming away from it.
 
EdibleKnife said:
It's not cherry picking. It's showing a specific trend within several big name, lauded video games that goes largely unnoticed. I also don't know why people don't just finish the video. Find out if she makes an ultimate point, or answers your questions before coming away from it.
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because the first 12 min of propaganda are just too long and too much for me to care till the end I guess
 
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