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[WorriedCitizen]

It's not really anyone's fault. Let's say for example a girl goes into the field. For her entire life to this point she's been in school where all of her friends were female and the school was a 50/50 split between male and female.

Then she gets into a college for game design and there is only one other girl. She will immediately feel a tinge of sadness from the lack of potential female friends she can talk to. As fickle as it sounds, having those other girls around her have her a sense of belonging and comfort. When she sees that there aren't any other girls around her mind become more sensitive to the fact that she is different.

Then a guy makes a harmless comment about sandwiches. And then another guy lingers at her cleavage or something. Red flags are triggered, and now she feels irrationally sensitive to her differences.

I had a gay friend who was in game design for a day. After one class he transferred to media design and was happier to see more diversity in terms of sexual orientation and gender.

What really matters is whether the person values "belonging" more or their career path. Girls are ultra social, so it's normal for us to follow where the other girls are going.

Do you have any idea why so few girls took part in your class? Would you say there are hurdles that specifically affect girls from even considering this career path or lack of awareness that it even exists? I see a lot of females in 2d art related groups, forums, classes so it's not like girls have no interest in art and creation. But when it comes to 3d it's really mostly a boys club.

That aside, you can certainly be an advocate for better treatment, but I think it's most meaningful and impactful when it results from a creation in your own work.

I make weapons, vehicles, trees stuff like that. So very little that i can do about sending a message as far as my artistic creation goes.

 

[zeldablue]

Do you have any idea why so few girls took part in your class? Would you say there are hurdles that specifically affect girls from even considering this career path or lack of awareness that it even exists? I see a lot of females in 2d art related groups, forums, classes so it's not like girls have no interest in art and creation. But when it comes to 3d it's really mostly a boys club.



I make weapons, vehicles, trees stuff like that. So very little that i can do about sending a message as far as my artistic creation goes.

My school had something called a 3DDG program. It was all male, but there was a girl who was really talented and pretty. She transferred out because of the harassment. :/ (also the program was pretty lack luster compared to what else we have)

It has a lot to do with how the girls feel when they enter class/work. To wake up and prep yourself up for sexual harassment is exhausting and honestly not worth it for a lot of girls. Not to mention that over time it makes you a defensive, easily agitated person. It's an interesting form of bullying that people don't even recognize as bullying.

The program I took was all about 2D Design, motion graphics and 3D. We got the whole shebang along with all the diversity you can ask for. 50/50 male to female ratio and everything.

This whole situation for the game industry has everything to do with the in group and out group mentality. Basically meaning, it's not always worth it to get into your field of choice if your going to be treated differently. Most of the female friends I had in college loved gaming and wanted game design, but came in for a different design program for these reasons. (Plus I think in general, the girls are more drawn in by the characters and story rather than the technical programming of the game mechanics)

 

[Cyrano]

I make weapons, vehicles, trees stuff like that. So very little that i can do about sending a message as far as my artistic creation goes.

In the realm of social issues, I would tend to agree, but I think all of those things are vital and definitely send a message.

Regardless, I would encourage you, perhaps in later phases of a work, to critique the whole of the work as much as time allows you. I've only ever worked with small teams, so I don't really know the ins and outs of big production studios, but I would imagine they would be willing to take feedback on stuff related to models or animation sets, at the very least.

 

[moondoggerr]

Imagine the Antebellum South, a society built on slavery. And imagine some progressive prints a pamphlet which in broad strokes outlines the main problems with slavery, in such a way that it brings it to the conscuiousness of the "average man." Suddenly, it seems like everyone is talking about this issue.

Now imagine that the predominant response of some smart people to that pamphlet is along the lines of, "Yes, this is a real issue, but this pamphlet is SO SHALLOW and SO POORLY WRITTEN I wish it didn't exist and I will not concede that it has done any good whatsoever, even though I, a person who says he agrees with its thesis, have done nothing that even compares to a fraction of the impact it has had and will have in the future."

That is what it is like for me to read many of the responses in this thread.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Imagine the Antebellum South, a society built on slavery. And imagine some progressive prints a pamphlet which in broad strokes outlines the main problems with slavery, in such a way that it brings it to the conscuiousness of the "average man." Suddenly, it seems like everyone is talking about this issue.

Now imagine that the predominant response of some smart people to that pamphlet is along the lines of, "Yes, this is a real issue, but this pamphlet is SO SHALLOW and SO POORLY WRITTEN I wish it didn't exist and I will not concede that it has done any good whatsoever, even though I, a person who says he agrees with its thesis, have done nothing that even compares to a fraction of the impact it has had and will have in the future."

That is what it is like for me to read many of the responses in this thread.

I see no reason to lower your intellectual standards just because you agree with what someone is saying.

 

[ishibear]

I see no reason to lower your intellectual standards just because you agree with what someone is saying.

Huh?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Huh?

His argument seems to be that if you think Anita Sarkeesian's videos are shallow and kind of dumb you should shut up about it because they're in pursuit of worthwhile goals.

 

[Objectively Bad Opinion]

Imagine the Antebellum South, a society built on slavery. And imagine some progressive prints a pamphlet which in broad strokes outlines the main problems with slavery, in such a way that it brings it to the conscuiousness of the "average man." Suddenly, it seems like everyone is talking about this issue.

Now imagine that the predominant response of some smart people to that pamphlet is along the lines of, "Yes, this is a real issue, but this pamphlet is SO SHALLOW and SO POORLY WRITTEN I wish it didn't exist and I will not concede that it has done any good whatsoever, even though I, a person who says he agrees with its thesis, have done nothing that even compares to a fraction of the impact it has had and will have in the future."

That is what it is like for me to read many of the responses in this thread.

youre comparing the representation of women in video games to slavery

 

[Son of Cervantes]

It's possible to simultaneously agree with Sarkeesian's points while deriding her critical ability IMO. She's a very shallow pop culture critic. I wish someone on the level of Camille Paglia or Susan Faludi was doing these sorts of videos.

 

[zeldablue]

youre comparing the representation of women in video games to slavery

The oppression of ethnic groups and the oppression of women stems from the same exact thought process.

This person is inferior to me.

It's possible to simultaneously agree with Sarkeesian's points while deriding her critical ability IMO. She's a very shallow pop culture critic. I wish someone on the level of Camille Paglia or Susan Faludi was doing these sorts of videos.

I don't think they'd say a word after seeing what it did to Anita's wellbeing.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

My school had something called a 3DDG program. It was all male, but there was a girl who was really talented and pretty. She transferred out because of the harassment. :/ (also the program was pretty lack luster compared to what else we have)

It has a lot to do with how the girls feel when they enter class/work. To wake up and prep yourself up for sexual harassment is exhausting and honestly not worth it for a lot of girls. Not to mention that over time it makes you a defensive, easily agitated person. It's an interesting form of bullying that people don't even recognize as bullying.

The program I took was all about 2D Design, motion graphics and 3D. We got the whole shebang along with all the diversity you can ask for. 50/50 male to female ratio and everything.

This whole situation for the game industry has everything to do with the in group and out group mentality. Basically meaning, it's not always worth it to get into your field of choice if your going to be treated differently. Most of the female friends I had in college loved gaming and wanted game design, but came in for a different design program for these reasons. (Plus I think in general, the girls are more drawn in by the characters and story rather than the technical programming of the game mechanics)

I see. I think what the games industry can do and should push for is to get girls interested in content creation at a much younger age. That means not just to provide level editors or SDK's to the latest shooter games but all kinds of games.

There also need to be more tools that are either free or cheap for young people and easy to use but yet relevant to game creation. Most kids start with cracked software that need a powerful PC to run. That's a big hurdle and i imagine more so for girls because most don't have this hardware already to run the latest shooter at 120 fps.

What we as devs can do on a personal level is to welcome everyone with open arms who comes to our communities with the goal of learning. I haven't seen much shitty behaviour in the professional forums but it certainly can be intimidating for a newcomer to enter such a place even more so when there is as you say a lingering feeling of not belonging to the group.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's possible to simultaneously agree with Sarkeesian's points while deriding her critical ability IMO. She's a very shallow pop culture critic. I wish someone on the level of Camille Paglia or Susan Faludi was doing these sorts of videos.

Oh I absolutely have problems with her critical ability and I would love to see more in depth criticism as well. But there's having a problem with her critical ability and then there's an attitude I see from some posters of "if you can't do it just how I'd like to see it, don't do it at all".

 

[Cyrano]

What we as devs can do on a personal level is to welcome everyone with open arms who comes to our communities with the goal of learning. I haven't seen much shitty behaviour in the professional forums but it certainly can be intimidating for a newcomer to enter such a place even more so when there is as you say a lingering feeling of not belonging to the group.

Which yeah, makes me think bigger studios are just like high school. Ironic that when the power structure is inverted, the same problems still seem to appear. I don't know whether to blame capitalism or shitty societal viewpoints for that (probably both).

 

[Toxi]

It's possible to simultaneously agree with Sarkeesian's points while deriding her critical ability IMO. She's a very shallow pop culture critic. I wish someone on the level of Camille Paglia or Susan Faludi was doing these sorts of videos.

Not targeting you because I've seen you analyze her video in this thread, but drive-by "she's not a good critic" posts from people who aren't even willing to explain how they think she's not a good critic come across as trying to shut down the discussion.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I was almost a game developer, but I didn't really like the way I was treated so I U-turned out of there.

My school had something called a 3DDG program. It was all male, but there was a girl who was really talented and pretty. She transferred out because of the harassment. :/

That's so awful.

People who keep saying "we just need more women in the industry", well, sure we do, but when the discouragement starts so early... what a surprise that there aren't.

 

[zeldablue]

I see. I think what the games industry can do and should push for is to get girls interested in content creation at a much younger age. That means not just to provide level editors or SDK's to the latest shooter games but all kinds of games.

There also need to be more tools that are either free or cheap for young people and easy to use but yet relevant to game creation. Most kids start with cracked software that need a powerful PC to run. That's a big hurdle and i imagine more so for girls because most don't have this hardware already to run the latest shooter at 120 fps.

What we as devs can do on a personal level is to welcome everyone with open arms who comes to our communities with the goal of learning. I haven't seen much shitty behaviour in the professional forums but it certainly can be intimidating for a newcomer to enter such a place even more so when there is as you say a lingering feeling of not belonging to the group.

Yes, I agree.

When it comes to childhood most girls aren't introduced to expensive technology. Our technological curiosity isn't garnered as frequently. Most are told its unfeminine. We're discouraged or even pushed away from it by peers and our authorities.

When it comes to picking the job, my best subject was math and science. I never cared much for history or literature. However I was told that the latter was more feminine. The latter was where I belonged. Even though I didn't necessarily believe that, I had to think about if I wanted to pick a career where no one like me would be. And that idea scared me.

Girls are taught to be social and for the most part we are much more social in comparison to men. This might be a big problem for jobs that involve little/low human contact. Computers might feel too impersonal or antisocial. When I took game design classes, I noticed the girls were very introverted which might give some indication that these fields need people who aren't fueled by excessive extroversion.

What initially drew me to gaming was the social interaction. (local multiplayer) face to face interaction was pretty crucial. Games were a tool to bring me closer to friends while online games felt exclusionary to me. Likewise adventure games were a huge draw because of all the characters and subplots that felt "human."

Games that focus too much on being "manly" makes me feel a bit sick. It feels manipulative to me the same way Kim Karsashian might feel manipulative to guys.

There are a truck load of reasons girls and women aren't going in those fields. It isn't about their education, it's all about social assumptions and expectations.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

This thread is fairly lengthy so I haven't read it all, but did see a video having a go at her over the way she portrayed Hitman in one of her videos.

Was that critique of her fair? Does she try and misrepresent the games she uses as examples?

Arguments on both sides whether or not she misrepresented hitman.

But the topic in this video isn't Side Character Women in Specific Games. It's Women as Background Decoration. Bonnie isn't an example of background decoration. You are a historian who apparently grades papers. If the assignment was a report on the French Revolution but instead discussed the French's actions in WW2, you'd probably fail them.
She is showing how these tropes are prevalent in the gaming industry. She's not even saying these games all suck for having them in it. Just that this is a trend that is common and it sends a negative message. Bonnie existing doesn't vanish away the random prostitute knifings. And as she says, "remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects."



So what is she doing right? You certainly seem to be focusing on what you think she's doing wrong, yourself.

But men are also used for background decoration, same as women. The argument brought up against this is that "because there are good examples of men too in those games". If that applies to men, why wouldn't it apply to the bonnies of read dead?

 

[Vice]

Arguments on both sides whether or not she misrepresented hitman.



But men are also used for background decoration, same as women. The argument brought up against this is that "because there are good examples of men too in those games". If that applies to men, why wouldn't it apply to the bonnies of read dead?

Because the series focuses on a trope per episode specifically about women. If the series was called Tropes vs Men it would focus on tropes about men.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Because the series focuses on a trope per episode specifically about women. If the series was called Tropes vs Men it would focus on tropes about men.

Yes, but I believe I am right in saying Anita is for equality of gender yes? Now if RDR has this equality of gender, why is it then fair for her to point out said tropes in RDR? Can no games have violence against women whatsoever? Can no games every have women npcs being hurt, unless of course they are given background and context and development?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Because the series focuses on a trope per episode specifically about women. If the series was called Tropes vs Men it would focus on tropes about men.

This is quite literally the same as the "realism argument," and it has the same riposte: can we not criticize the creator of these videos for her decision to frame them as being simply a litany of tropes about women? No one forced her to make her videos this way, after all.

 

[Gestault]

Because the series focuses on a trope per episode specifically about women. If the series was called Tropes vs Men it would focus on tropes about men.

If the accusation is that women are treated differently than men in her examples, which she is, then someone else pointing out that the male equivalent is treated the same is not off-topic and does contradict her claim. It doesn't speak well to the quality of her analysis if she deliberately highlights the treatment without recognizing the existence of the most obvious and necessary corollary information.

 

[zeldablue]

Yes, but I believe I am right in saying Anita is for equality of gender yes? Now if RDR has this equality of gender, why is it then fair for her to point out said tropes in RDR? Can no games have violence against women whatsoever? Can no games every have women npcs being hurt, unless of course they are given background and context and development?

If you could give me some examples of male characters being sexually exploited and killed in sexualized, passive ways I'd definitely call it equal.

But I don't think I could name one male character who dies in a way that is sexually charged.

If you could list games with female/gay gaze and sexual violence on men, I'd totally be singing this song with you.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

If you could give me some examples of male characters being sexually exploited and killed in sexualized, passive ways I'd definitely call it equal.

But I don't think I could name one male character who dies in a way that is sexually charged.

If you could list games with female/gay gaze and sexual violence on men, I'd totally be singing this song with you.

Warning, very NSFW and very graphic

And there are plenty more from that game and its DLC in particular.

But to your argument, she also listed Watch Dogs, where the women killed were in fully dressed clothing,

 

[jordisok]

This is quite literally the same as the "realism argument," and it has the same riposte: can we not criticize the creator of these videos for her decision to frame them as being simply a litany of tropes about women? No one forced her to make her videos this way, after all.

Doesn't it get to a point where criticizing that point becomes completely pointless though? The series has already started, we've known what it was going to be about since the kickstarter.

 

[The Technomancer]

Warning, very NSFW and very graphic

And there are plenty more from that game and its DLC in particular.

But to your argument, she also listed Watch Dogs, where the women killed were in fully dressed clothing,

Now can you make a pair of 20 minute videos showing another two dozen examples? That's kind of why I agree with her montage approach: of course you can find a handful of examples of practically anything in a medium this broad. What's interesting is where the trends show up.

 

[moondoggerr]

I see no reason to lower your intellectual standards just because you agree with what someone is saying.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[blankempathy]

Please dont generalize what I was saying. I was merely responding to a post saying that the way women are treated in some of these games can impact children in a negative way.

 

[zeldablue]

Warning, very NSFW and very graphic

And there are plenty more from that game and its DLC in particular.

But to your argument, she also listed Watch Dogs, where the women killed were in fully dressed clothing,

That's a really good example! But do you see a difference? The player is placed into that position as well. As the player, you are the disempowered one. You have a better understanding of why this is troublesome. In the other games with female victims, you don't share that level ground of disempowerment.

That's why examples like Papa y Yo, Silent Hill 2 and maybe even Catherine use this trope in better ways. This example isn't trivializing sexual violence the same way the other games are.

Also the fully clothed girl didn't bother to protect herself, while male counterparts in the same game always fought in self defense...

I mean, these female NPCs ought to have tasers or pepperspray, you'd think.

Also a great horror game keeps the player disempowered.

 

[unbias]

That's so awful.

People who keep saying "we just need more women in the industry", well, sure we do, but when the discouragement starts so early... what a surprise that there aren't.

I know, it's like you would think the industry would actually start getting involved early in these kids lives, for development sake, like sports or just about any other vocation. Oh who am I kidding, I think we all know the industry wont do shit, to help foster more diversity in the workplace. Outside of talk, they most definitely will talk.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Imagine the Antebellum South, a society built on slavery. And imagine some progressive prints a pamphlet which in broad strokes outlines the main problems with slavery, in such a way that it brings it to the conscuiousness of the "average man." Suddenly, it seems like everyone is talking about this issue.

Now imagine that the predominant response of some smart people to that pamphlet is along the lines of, "Yes, this is a real issue, but this pamphlet is SO SHALLOW and SO POORLY WRITTEN I wish it didn't exist and I will not concede that it has done any good whatsoever, even though I, a person who says he agrees with its thesis, have done nothing that even compares to a fraction of the impact it has had and will have in the future."

That is what it is like for me to read many of the responses in this thread.

Nah, it's more like a pamphlet coming out that says "all white male farmers own slaves!" and "all white men beat their slaves" and "all slave owners only give their slaves 1 meal a day"

And when people speak up and say "Hey, I agree that slavery is bad, but you realize that not all white male farmers own slaves. I'm a white male farmer and I don't..."

"SILENCE! What are you, some kind of slave owner? Do you love slavery, is that what you're telling me?"

 

[zeldablue]

Nah, it's more like a pamphlet coming out that says "all white male farmers own slaves!" and "all white men beat their slaves" and "all slave owners only give their slaves 1 meal a day"

And when people speak up and say "Hey, I agree that slavery is bad, but you realize that not all white male farmers own slaves. I'm a white male farmer and I don't..."

"SILENCE! What are you, some kind of slave owner? Do you love slavery, is that what you're telling me?"

But this is about representation. If you read books about how slaves were represented in that era, the slaves were always shown to be happy about the fact that they were enslaved. The protagonists, who were slave owners, were seen as fathers, and the slaves were his happy naive children. The books gave off this comfort that all was right in the world and that things were exactly how they should and always should be.

This sentiment was in every book of that period and gave off the perception that slavery was a good thing and everyone was happy about their place in society. They tried to make it look as peachy as possible so that they could ignore how awful it really was. In essence, they romantasized slavery to the point of making everyone see it as good. If that sounds crazy, it's not. There was a long period of Renaissance Art that romantasized rape as well.

Obviously that was delusional of them, but they truly thought that way and felt that changing things would go against the natural order of racial hierarchy.

There was one book that expressed antislavery sentiment and it was so eye opening that it was a huge factor to the abolitionist movement. Can't remember the name tho.

My great great granny was a fancy house slave from Georgia.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Now can you make a pair of 20 minute videos showing another two dozen examples? That's kind of why I agree with her montage approach: of course you can find a handful of examples of practically anything in a medium this broad. What's interesting is where the trends show up.

Well if you give me several months sure, let's keep the parameters fair and square.

That's a really good example! But do you see a difference? The player is placed into that position as well. As the player, you are the disempowered one. You have a better understanding of why this is troublesome. In the other games with female victims, you don't share that level ground of disempowerment.

That's why examples like Papa y Yo, Silent Hill 2 and maybe even Catherine use this trope in better ways. This example isn't trivializing sexual violence the same way the other games are.

Also the fully clothed girl didn't bother to protect herself, while male counterparts in the same game always fought in self defense...

I mean, these female NPCs ought to have tasers or pepperspray, you'd think.

Also a great horror game keeps the player disempowered.

Fair enough and well said, but I still feel the game essentially used male genital mutilation as a setup for the game world, or "background decoration".

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

But this is about representation. If you read books about how slaves were represented in that era, the slaves were always shown to be happy about the fact that they were enslaved. The protagonists, who were slave owners, were seen as fathers, and the slaves were his happy naive children. The books gave off this comfort that all was right in the world and that things were exactly how they should and always should be.

I think you're missing the crux of my argument. Setting aside the fact that people who disagree with Anita are being compared to ignorant slave owners of the South, the issue here is that there are plenty of people involved in the discussion who are saying "Yes, I agree that we could do much better with representing women in games. However, I dislike how you are using lies and intentionally omitting facts in order to make your point. It does undermine your entire point"

To which the reply comes "what? You some kind of misogynistic bigoted sexist white cis male or something? How would you know how this feels? You're not even a WOMAN"

Political movements have used this sort of method many times in the past, and I find it disgusting.

 

[zeldablue]

I think you're missing the crux of my argument. Setting aside the fact that people who disagree with Anita are being compared to ignorant slave owners of the South, the issue here is that there are plenty of people involved in the discussion who are saying "Yes, I agree that we could do much better with representing women in games. However, I dislike how you are using lies and intentionally omitting facts in order to make your point. It does undermine your entire point"

To which the reply comes "what? You some kind of misogynistic bigoted sexist white cis male or something? How would you know how this feels? You're not even a WOMAN"

Political movements have used this sort of method many times in the past, and I find it disgusting.

I'm not sure if anyone on this forum is doing anything like that.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I think you're missing the crux of my argument. Setting aside the fact that people who disagree with Anita are being compared to ignorant slave owners of the South, the issue here is that there are plenty of people involved in the discussion who are saying "Yes, I agree that we could do much better with representing women in games. However, I dislike how you are using lies and intentionally omitting facts in order to make your point. It does undermine your entire point"

To which the reply comes "what? You some kind of misogynistic bigoted sexist white cis male or something? How would you know how this feels? You're not even a WOMAN"

Political movements have used this sort of method many times in the past, and I find it disgusting.

I don't think I've seen any such response as this. Quotes from said posters would prove your point.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well if you give me several months sure, let's keep the parameters fair and square.
.

I mean, if you want to go for it, sure. Since her entire premise is that women are disproportionately represented in these tropes and circumstances, a very effective rebuttal would be to compile equally extensive lists of counter-examples. That would be one of the better ways to not only criticize her work but try and encourage greater depth of analysis.

 

[martino]

I really don't understand the point...every game sequence has a plot, context or something like that where violence and morale are not mornal. That can explain violence and sexual harrasment over women. Why avoid it if it is coherent with game universe ?

 

[The Technomancer]

I really don't understand the point...every game sequence has a plot, context or something like that where violence and morale are not mornal. That can explain violence and sexual harrasment over women. Why avoid it if it is coherent with game universe ?

"Can explain it" is kind of a low bar when it comes to something so artistically controlled. Games are already so unrealistic in other ways that "can be explained". You can make most things coherent in a game universe, since a large part of playing these intrinsically fantastic experiences is suspension of disbelief.

 

[tassletine]

Imagine the Antebellum South, a society built on slavery. And imagine some progressive prints a pamphlet which in broad strokes outlines the main problems with slavery, in such a way that it brings it to the conscuiousness of the "average man." Suddenly, it seems like everyone is talking about this issue.

Now imagine that the predominant response of some smart people to that pamphlet is along the lines of, "Yes, this is a real issue, but this pamphlet is SO SHALLOW and SO POORLY WRITTEN I wish it didn't exist and I will not concede that it has done any good whatsoever, even though I, a person who says he agrees with its thesis, have done nothing that even compares to a fraction of the impact it has had and will have in the future."

That is what it is like for me to read many of the responses in this thread.

Comparing the two is completely outrageous and undermines both your and her argument. As you posted (later) on you say the prejudice comes from the same place, but that like saying both those words are in the dictionary. A bar room brawl is not the same as a war. You cant even directly compare Victorian women to a slave -- Someone who taken from their homeland and family, held by force, beaten and sold as a product.

Commentators like you are part of the problem. What is needed is rational talk on the subject but when you say things like this your comments will be instantly dismissed because you are exaggerating. If you sincerely believe these points then you have a simplified view of reality or very little empathy for humanity as a whole.

 

[zeldablue]

I really don't understand the point...every game sequence has a plot, context or something like that where violence and morale are not mornal. That can explain violence and sexual harrasment over women. Why avoid it if it is coherent with game universe ?

I think the main thing is how normalized it is. Its problematic because it's cliche and has very little thought put in. Over time it creates a bunch of lame assumption and preconceptions about what women are.

I think all the videos are just going to focus on how women are:

1. Defined by the fact that they are women. (As oppose to being fast or smart for example)
2. Defined by their sexuality.
3. Defined by the men in their lives.
4. Solely there for the use of men.
5. Defined by passivity or submissiveness
6. Are props in the story/have no agency
7. Aren't very important if they aren't there for sexual or sensual release for men.
8. Controlling or tempting through sex.

All of those perceptions are pretty problematic. If I knew someone who believed all of these stereotypes, I'd be rather upset with that person.

 

[Brakke]

Tropes vs Women producer just tweeted out http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/opinion/sunday/does-media-violence-lead-to-the-real-thing.html, if your curious where they're coming from:

There is now consensus that exposure to media violence is linked to actual violent behavior — a link found by many scholars to be on par with the correlation of exposure to secondhand smoke and the risk of lung cancer. In a meta-analysis of 217 studies published between 1957 and 1990, the psychologists George Comstock and Haejung Paik found that the short-term effect of exposure to media violence on actual physical violence against a person was moderate to large in strength.

 

[The Technomancer]

Tropes vs Women producer just tweeted out http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/opinion/sunday/does-media-violence-lead-to-the-real-thing.html, if your curious where they're coming from:

Interesting. Violent crime rates are falling however. Does that make it "not a problem" then? Are social forces against violence just much more overpowering than the media influence?

 

[zeldablue]

Tropes vs Women producer just tweeted out http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/opinion/sunday/does-media-violence-lead-to-the-real-thing.html, if your curious where they're coming from:

Oh boy.

I think it's purely psychological. If someone isn't having a good time with their life they may fall back on more and more violent content.

I'd prefer them to release their anger by looking at violent things rather than actually go out and do it in real life. Though the only real way to cure violence is by giving people more hope, love and opportunity.

 

[weemadarthur]

Interesting. Violent crime rates are falling however. Does that make it "not a problem" then? Are social forces against violence just much more overpowering than the media influence?

Violent behavior isn't just crimes against strangers. It would include...say...throwing controllers, shouting nasty things at opponents or family, potentially domestic violence because they're the closest people....practically every study done links playing violent games with "aggression". The question would be whether people who respond in this manner develop ongoing tendencies to respond to other stimuli with aggression.

 

[kirblar]

Interesting. Violent crime rates are falling however. Does that make it "not a problem" then? Are social forces against violence just much more overpowering than the media influence?

The social forces don't even appear to be the most likely cause of the drop, given the data we've seen on environmental ones (lead removal.) One of the tricky things about the past 20-30 years is that we're quickly learning that the margins we thought were important on many issues involving violence weren't actually the ones that mattered most.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I really don't understand the point...every game sequence has a plot, context or something like that where violence and morale are not mornal. That can explain violence and sexual harrasment over women. Why avoid it if it is coherent with game universe ?

But game sequences don't occur naturally. They're creations. Every game sequence occurs because the game designers chose to include them. They created the context.

I could create a game that logically and contextually depicted gamers as the lowest basement dwelling scum of the earth. Just take the worst aspects of the stereotypes and turn it up to 11, and make sure it's portrayed as a negative. Hey I can explain the context why it has to be this way. Perfectly reasonable in the game universe. And I'm sure you'd notice if many many games portrayed gamers in a horrible light, you might imagine the game creators had a very specific view of gamers, or at least had unconscious biases they might not have examined. But hey each depiction of gamers as pathetic and lowly had very specific context that made sense individually, so I don't understand the point.

 

[unbias]

Violent behavior isn't just crimes against strangers. It would include...say...throwing controllers, shouting nasty things at opponents or family, potentially domestic violence because they're the closest people....practically every study done links playing violent games with "aggression". The question would be whether people who respond in this manner develop ongoing tendencies to respond to other stimuli with aggression.

Actually, there was a peer reviewed paper from Texas A&M, that showed why those studies were not properly applicable.

http://www.tamiu.edu/newsinfo/11-16-07/article5.shtml

That's the conclusion from a study published in Psychiatric Quarterly, Volume 78, by a Texas A&M International University assistant professor that found that playing violent video games has positive effects and there is little evidence that links playing violent games with aggression.

Dr. Christopher J. Ferguson, TAMIU assistant professor of psychology, analyzed 24 published studies of violent video game effects that either examined aggressive consequences or improvements in visuospatial cognition.

"Violent game playing may be associated with some positive effects, but little evidence exists to link violent game playing with aggression," Dr. Ferguson said.

He selected the studies for his meta-analysis by conducting literature searches of all published studies between 1995 and 2007 that examined violent game playing and either aggression or visuospatial cognition.

"The results indicated no relationship between violent game playing and aggression, but did find that violent game playing was associated with higher scores on measures of visuospatial cognition," Ferguson explained.

Violent Video Games Help Relieve
Stress, Depression, Says TAMIU Professor

 

[Brakke]

24 studies over twenty years vs 217 studies between 1957 and 1990? Hah comparing metastudies is weird. We need a meta meta study to resolve those two.

 

[Lime]

This article talks about some of the raised criticisms and mentions stuff about media effects: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/imortal/2014/08/27/brutalizing-women-in-video-games/

 

[Lime]

This is a really good article addressing the people who brought up the whole "realism" justification of sexual violence and murder of women in video games:

“Why is it video games need to be politically and societally [sic] correct? The whole point of video games is to escape reality and have fun.”

If that’s the goal, games like Watch Dogs are failing horribly.

You know what’s not escapism? Having to wonder if any given game (or movie, or book) you pick up is going to include women primarily as prostitutes, murdered girlfriends, vulnerable daughters, and rape victims. [...]

And most importantly that everyone who brings up the "realism" argument:

Oddly, when someone raises these issues, the people who have been stridently defending their games as “just games” switch to explaining why having women in other roles is unrealistic. A gritty, stylized world built on the corpses of women is defended as a way for gamers to escape from reality, but if someone points out that it makes them uncomfortable, they’re told that they’re supposed to be uncomfortable.