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[Mononoke]

I agree it'd be nice if there were citations.

I do wonder, having worked in TV for a while, if an entertainment lawyer might have advised them not to do so. Fair use is tricky and lawyers are especially jumpy about it. Citing another source might have opened them up to further complications, although this is only a guess on my part.



As a few people have already explained, mental health relates closely to issues of toxic masculinity. One of the many things "toxic masculinity" refers to is the idea that men and boys should never, ever ask for help. That receiving help of any kind is weakness and people with mental health problems are just giving in to their weakness. Acts of violence and dominance as a response to these feelings of inadequacy and weakness are not uncommon.

All that being said, Sarkeesian's main point was that nearly every single shooting of this kind has been committed by a man. This is a fact. Either we assume that excessive acts of violence are innately, naturally male or we have to begin to wonder if there is something about the way society treats men and masculinity that isn't working as it should. This is what the concept of toxic masculinity is about.

But this is a bit off topic. (I mean, maybe. It gets brought up in every single Sarkeesian thread at this point along with all the other usual bullet points. It's hard to tell sometimes what is "on topic" with discussions of Anita.)

Ah you work in TV? I worked in the music industry and the film industry for some time too. Always interesting to talk to others about it, especially with regards to sexism issues in either industry.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What does that have to do with the money? Focus on that, if you don't agree.

EDIT: Might have read that wrong. Sorry.

Honestly, these things should be non-issues.

All Kickstarters should disclose where the money went, and that means post-campaign as well as pre.

Pre just does not cut it.

EDIT: As for making over the amount you were asking for... it's not like you held a gun to anyone's head. And you don't need to give the money back, which is what people seem to want.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Yes. She's reassigning traits that already exist in the media, trying to turn negatives into positives and maybe some positives into negatives. She is not claiming that this is the end all be all of women's representation, rather she is very realistically recognizing that you don't end thousands of years of stereotyping overnight.

Still dosn't explain why "strong" is not part of these initial feminist values that should be applied as a stepping stone. Why intuitive is more femenist than strong?.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Seems totally reasonable even if that's all for 1 person. If its for more than 1 person than there certainly shouldn't be any hard feelings. Whats an average income for someone with her education level and all that?

Depending on where she is based, at least 30% of those figures will go to payroll related taxes etc.

 

[Cyrano]

If you were listing tropes, to fill a tvtrope article sure. When you do a research job on them and their possible negative implications? Context is important, of course.

1) This isn't research, it's social commentary.
2) The negative implications are pervasive regardless of their subversion.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I don't have a problem with how she spent the money. People gave her money, she made some interesting videos, and it was all well spent. If you have an issue with how she spent her money or what she won't disclose, then don't donate again, simple as that.

 

[Cat Party]

These threads are always funny until I remember she's a real person, dealing with real harassment and abuse, all because she is critical of videogames. I support the shit out of her work, and I don't need any breakdown of the costs, ESPECIALLY because I didn't even contribute to the Kickstarter.

 

[Dog Problems]

New Orchid isn't perfect but it's an upgrade over this:

I don't know. I miss playing as Janet Jackson.

 

[Corpekata]

Still dosn't explain why "strong" is not part of these initial feminist values that should be applied as a stepping stone. Why intuitive is more femenist than strong?.

Because she is arguing that women aren't often portrayed as strong, but they are portrayed as intuitive. She is not saying one is more feminist or another. She is assigning what she thinks the media portrays women and men as (table 2), and putting these traits in a different light (table 3). So strong is not on the women's list because most media does not present them as such. She's not arguing for some end game way women should be portrayed, but for ways for current portrayals to be tweaked.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

These threads are always funny until I remember she's a real person, dealing with real harassment and abuse, all because she is critical of videogames. I support the shit out of her work, and I don't need any breakdown of the costs, ESPECIALLY because I didn't even contribute to the Kickstarter.

People will still be interested in some transparency in cases like this, regardless of mitigating circumstances like the abuse she gets. When a Kickstarter gets several times the amount they originally asked for and still haven't delivered what they promised after several years, there are going to be some questions. Just because you don't care doesn't mean others don't have legitimate reasons.

 

[BFIB]

Good for her for disclosing what her plans are with the KS. Seen a lot where we never are told where the donations go.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

1) This isn't research, it's social commentary.
2) The negative implications are pervasive regardless of their subversion.

1) Social commentary needs appropiate context too.
2) I don't think that really true, specially in some cases, a Damsel in distress can still be a very powerful female representation. Like Midna, you can point out that Link needs to save her at some point, buy you will be missing that Link is subverted by Midna and saved a few times by Midna.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Still dosn't explain why "strong" is not part of these initial feminist values that should be applied as a stepping stone. Why intuitive is more femenist than strong?.

She does explain it in the full text.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

These threads are always funny until I remember she's a real person, dealing with real harassment and abuse, all because she is critical of videogames. I support the shit out of her work, and I don't need any breakdown of the costs, ESPECIALLY because I didn't even contribute to the Kickstarter.

Breakdown of the cost does help. We practically ask developers on KS to discuss how there gonna breakdown the money to make their game. When they don't we have a Mighty No. 9 scenario or the many games that got funded and was cancelled due to the devs not knowing how to handle their money. It doesn't matter how much money she has, I'm sure it cost a lot to produce those vids, but it matters to have a schedule.

 

[Raist]

If you actually read the entire paragraph, she is reassigning traits from Table 2 (what TV promotes as the traits of men and women) into a new table that would be more progressive. She is not saying women can't be strong. She is saying things like women being portrayed as passive, which is often positive in TV, should be portrayed as a negative attribute instead. Or that men, which are portrayed positively as violent, should be portrayed negatively when that trait occurs.

Presenting what you're going for without the second table she's contrasting it with and what she is talking about when presenting those tables is extremely disingenuous.

That's still based on a table that was bizarre to begin with (she couldn't find any negative traits for men in media? Really?). If she wants to push for a sexism-free world, then there is no point in still making dichotomies.

She argues herself:

Female roles in science fiction and fantasy television that are viewed as strong
and empowered embody many masculine identified traits, maintaining a patriarchal
division of gender roles. For example, values adopted by female characters in the
television shows I will examine in this major research paper maintain that
traditionally masculine attributes such as rationality, cool-headedness and physical
strength are superior and preferred over traditionally feminine attributes such as
cooperative decision making, and being emotionally expressive and empathetic.

I also began to notice that I identified
with and enjoyed watching the women who I was viewing. They have many
commonalities: they were strong, in charge, capable, confident and intelligent. As
much as I admired many of these traits I realized that if these characters had been
men, I would have been bored and would feel like the story was the same old heroic
masculine tale. Even today it is still exciting to see strong women taking control and
kicking butt, but that role isn’t really very different from their male counterparts.

So the question is, why not instead argue that these attributes do not have to be gender-based, and instead reshuffle them in a non-overlapping fashion like she does in table 3?
It seems to me that she maintains that men and women should be different still, while giving more value to a female character displaying a certain type of attributes (and vice versa or men).

 

[DragonGirl]

You need to on some games. She got Bayonetta largely wrong. And it showed that she had not played it.

So that alone is proof that you absolutely need to play some games. That said, I never suggested that you need to play every game to talk about tropes. It depends on the video, and what context you are criticizing it under. And sometimes, that context requires you to play the game.

It's funny because there is a lot of feminists that think Bayonetta is a pro feminist game (Lea Alexander wrote articles praising it). Again, not all feminists agree on everything, and that is okay. But I think Bayonetta is certainly a game where you can have a knee jerk reaction, and you need to play it all to understand the context of which the character is designed around.

In a creative medium, where the person developing every aspect of the medium, context really can't be used as an excuse. After all, you can work backwards from a trope and build the context around it to make it make sense. Here's an example from quite a few years ago, a piece I read from an older book on the subject of women's portrayal in video games.

A developer conducted some product testing and the women in the QA group questioned why a female playable character was pole dancing for some guards. The dev explained that it was how she distracted them from their posts so she could sneak past them. This satisfied the QA group because it made sense in the context of the game world. But see, the dev made the choice to have it make sense. They created a game world where the only way the female character could get past the guards was pole dancing for them. Why not have her just sneak past, or distract them in some other way. If it had been a male character, would he have pole danced or would he have more likely used another method. The pole dancing existed solely because the character was a women, and the devs created the context as an excuse to have her perform a sexual activity.

In a creative medium, context is a poor excuse because the devs have the power to have anything make sense since they control every aspect of the context.

 

[Beer Monkey]

This is why I don't do Kickstarter any more. It's all turned into "fund my life" stuff that is technically against their terms of service but KS doesn't give any fucks.

Deliver what you are selling.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

And the ironic thing is that the cultural impact of Feminist Frequency is order of magnitudes greater than what anyone could have envisioned from the start.

She asked for 6000, suddenly found herself with 26 times more. Stuff was bound to change.

I can agree that the episodes are few and far between and that's a big negative. On the other hand, we have three different takes on the damsel video, and two background decoration videos. I think these really do serve a purpose to add some bit of nuance to the analysis. I have a feeling that had she only gotten 6000 she would have kept to the original plan and done only one for each. And would, in that case have been much further along in terms of finishing up the episodes.

She hasn't handled the thing perfectly, no. But I think the few episodes released so far have had a massive impact on game development, about the conversation of gender in videogames, and that was the point all along, wasn't it?

I'm also really looking forward to Tropes vs Men, and hope they get it off the ground ASAP. It's sorely needed, and would be a great companion.

 

[Htown]

This is why I don't do Kickstarter any more. It's all turned into "fund my life" stuff that is technically against their terms of service but KS doesn't give any fucks.

Deliver what you are selling.

I mean

the videos exist

you can watch them if you want

 

[DoktorEvil]

Well its worth pointing out that originally she didn't. She asked for what...six thousand dollars on her kickstarter?

Something small. 6-10K

I bet she didn't expect donations in the high 6 figures.

With that kind of support, she can garner serious university support/funding.

 

[CambriaRising]

This is why I don't do Kickstarter any more. It's all turned into "fund my life" stuff that is technically against their terms of service but KS doesn't give any fucks.

Deliver what you are selling.

http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency

 

[bsod]

This is why I don't do Kickstarter any more. It's all turned into "fund my life" stuff that is technically against their terms of service but KS doesn't give any fucks.

Deliver what you are selling.

So...you're saying she didn't produce the videos that the Kickstarter was intended for? Is that what you're saying? I think that's what you're saying.

 

[Mononoke]

In a creative medium, where the person developing every aspect of the medium, context really can't be used as an excuse. After all, you can work backwards from a trope and build the context around it to make it make sense. Here's an example from quite a few years ago, a piece I read from an older book on the subject of women's portrayal in video games.

A developer conducted some product testing and the women in the QA group questioned why a female playable character was pole dancing for some guards. The dev explained that it was how she distracted them from their posts so she could sneak past them. This satisfied the QA group because it made sense in the context of the game world. But see, the dev made the choice to have it make sense. They created a game world where the only way the female character could get past the guards was pole dancing for them. Why not have her just sneak past, or distract them in some other way. If it had been a male character, would he have pole danced or would he have more likely used another method. The pole dancing existed solely because the character was a women, and the devs created the context as an excuse to have her perform a sexual activity.

In a creative medium, context is a poor excuse because the devs have the power to have anything make sense since they control every aspect of the context.

So someone can't subvert a trope? Also your post doesn't make sense. Sometimes a character is defined by the plot and their characteristic/personality. That's not an excuse.

This idea that a trope can't be subverted or can't be expanded on so its no longer the trope -- is weird to me. Crestive artisrs can be progressive. Point is, with Bayonetta on the surface her design could seem sexist if you take out of context her personality (the depth of her charcter written, and that she has her own agency). If you had not played the game then you would miss that aspect completely.

One of the arguments made from feminists (one I argue too), is that female characters are often defined by their sexuality or looks. That they lack personalities, agency or having a role in the plot other then to be eye candy. Criticizing a game like Bayonetta from the surface (how she looks) is kind of hypocritical as it doesn't take into account that she is fleshed out. She does have agency to her sexuality. She does have a role. If you ignore all this and focus purely on the surface level design, I do feel you've nissed the point of the charcater.

 

[Cyrano]

1) Social commentary needs appropiate context too.
2) I don't think that really true, specially in some cases, a Damsel in distress can still be a very powerful female representation. Like Midna, you can point out that Link needs to save her at some point, buy you will be missing that Link is subverted by Midna and saved a few times by Midna.

Social commentary is given appropriate context in the videos, at least in the sense that she is not being dishonest about the tropes existing in the media she is portraying and in the manner in which she presents them. If a trope exists somewhere, it's easy to spot, point out and present. Whether or not the trope is subverted is immaterial to presenting the fact that the trope exists. Midna also isn't subverting being damseled and in fact is reinforcing the damsel effect by seeing it in reverse. You don't subvert a trope by doing the same trope in reverse order. If anything, it just reinforces the trope's "normalcy" to people.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You don't think that a few hours after an event like that it might be too soon to draw conclusions? It could be mental health, it could be anything. If Jack Thompson tried to attribute an event like a shooting to GTA or other violent game we'd all probably say hold the fuck up.

You know the narrative for the Marysville shooting is that it happened because the shooter was rejected by a girl, and that said shooter explicitly targeted her among others right?

Also that his twitter feed was full of stuff that were textbook examples of toxic masculinity/

 

[The Technomancer]

So someone can't subvert a trope? Also your post doesn't make sense. Sometimes a character is defined by the plot and their characteristic/personality.

Of course you can. But a.)a lot of times a seeming subversion has its own problems and b.)if the majority of implementations weren't the other way there would be no meaning to something being subversive

 

[jim-jam bongs]

So basically, FemFreq have done exactly what they said they would?

As a side note, the notion that using footage captured by other parties is proof of the fact that they pocketed the money and ran has always rung hollow to me. The clips are generally used to back up a point which has been comprehensively exemplified in a longer segment. It's sketchy to use them and not credit the original capture source for sure, but I don't think it's proof of a scam.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

So now the irrational Sarkeesian hate has created an army of armchair video professionals.

What next.

Those people have existed since her very first video. Maybe we will see the return of the "why is she wearing those hula hoop earrings and makeup if she's feminist" people.

Anyone good for her transparent disclosure of what she's been doing with the money. She started out wanting $6000 for 11,10 min long, videos and ended up producing more in terms of number of mins. Her move to use the extra money to start a non-profit company is also a good one.

Looking forward to hearing more from her.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

You don't subvert a trope by doing the same trope in reverse order. If anything, it just reinforces the trope's "normalcy" to people.

Oh really? So when the lead character of Phantasy Star is a girl who is out to avenge her brother's death, that isn't an empowering female character because it is a reversal of the woman in the refridgerator trope?

 

[DragonGirl]

So someone can't subvert a trope? Also your post doesn't make sense. Sometimes a character is defined by the plot and their characteristic/personality.

Don't read into my post something I didn't write. I'm simply saying that using context as a full stop to a critique of a character ignores the fact that context can be built around a portrayal to force it to make sense. You should always look at the big picture. A sexist or racist or what have you character portrayal doesn't stop being sexist or racist simply because it makes sense in context. The context itself should be scrutinized as well.

Edit: Saw your edit, and I'm not talking about Bayonetta. I'm making a general comment about the habit of people saying "it makes sense in context or, they're ignoring the context" as though that's the end of the discussion right there. Bayonetta and where it falls as sexist or empowering is a discussion all on its own.

 

[Alo0oy]

Isn't it funny that the only people that are complaining about the backers' money are the ones that didn't back her kickstarter?

 

[Mononoke]

Of course you can. But a.)a lot of times a seeming subversion has its own problems and b.)if the majority of implementations weren't the other way there would be no meaning to something being subversive

That's fine. Never said those things aren't true. But how can you discuss these new issues if you don't acknowledge the subversion. If you haven't played the game and had that context that makes it not the surface trope that you think it is by going off the design alone?

I'm not saying Bayonetta is perfect. Of course it has issues worth discussing. But if you divorce Bayonetta from her personality, the characters agency and her role in the plot, you are missing out large parts of what the charcter is. And you are condemning it to a trope that it might not actually be (if it subverts and becomes something else). It's important to acknowledge these subversions so we can discuss the new issues that arise.

 

[Cyrano]

Oh really? So when the lead character of Phantasy Star is a girl who is out to avenge her brother's death, that isn't an empowering female character because it is a reversal of the woman in the refridgerator trope?

Shocking, I know.

Lazy story writing is lazy.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Shocking, I know.

Lazy story writing is lazy.

So the problem with tropes is that is a lazy storytelling technique? What has to do with social commentary?

 

[Mononoke]

Don't read into my post something I didn't write. I'm simply saying that using context as a full stop to a critique of a character ignores the fact that context can be build around a portrayal to force it to make sense. You should always look at the big picture. A sexist or racist or what have you character portrayal doesn't stop being sexist or racist simply because it makes sense in context. The context itself should be scrutinized as well.

Sorry I didn't mean to read into your post wrong. I was confused. I would never put words in your mouth. I'm extremely sorry, please forgive me.

For the record I never said that Bayonetta doesn't have sexist elements to it. That you can't look at all characters on a surface level and criticize them as tropes. Because Bayonetta does require the context of the game becaus it subverts the trope, I think you have to know this since the trope is no longer the exact trope that you think it is purely from a surface level.

Why is that important? Because new issues can arise that need be discussed. But you can't do that if you've already pigeon holed it into another trope.

Bayonetta takes steps in the right direction. It's progressive. But it also gets things wrong. And since we are trying to get better, we have to acknowledge these things. But you can't propelry discuss these issues if you've alresdy decided it's a specific trope that it might not be.

So I do think some games have to be played. I'm not saying all games. But some certainly do (especially narrative driven games where plot and character personality informs the design).

 

[John Harker]

I don't get involved In these things really, mostly because I simply can't wrap my head around anyone who tries to attack or argue against people like Anita as being anything but a positive influence, but there's a lot of ignorance In this thread when it comes to general production costs.

It can range anywhere from like $50k-$75k+ just to do a good quality Twitch stream, when done with real production channels. Equipment and fees and salaries and travel and rentals, especially if it's all Union and legit, I mean, these things take a lot of effort and time and costs. Try and be a little reasonable.

 

[CambriaRising]

So the problem with tropes is that is a lazy storytelling technique? What has to do with social commentary?

Because some tropes help reinforce social norms in a negative way.

 

[The Technomancer]

That's fine. Never said those things aren't true. But how can you discuss these new issues if you don't acknowledge the subversion. If you haven't played the game and had that context that makes it not the surface trope that you think it is by going off the design alone?

I'm not saying Bayonetta is perfect. Of course it has issues worth discussing. But if you divorce Bayonetta from her personality, the characters agency and her role in the plot, you are missing out large parts of what the charcter is. And you are condemning it to a trope that it might not actually be (if it subverts and becomes something else). It's important to acknowledge these subversions so we can discuss the new issues that arise.

I agree that I think she, at the very least, doesn't seem familiar enough with Bayonetta. I won't claim Bayonetta is empowering, but the fact that several prominent feminist critics do means that there's something interesting going on, we're on the same page there. But Bayonetta is really fucking weird. She's possibly the weirdest prominent female character in gaming today, and the fact that such a subversion can exist doesn't mean that we should give the benefit of the doubt to every seeming instance of a trope. I don't, for example, see many feminist critics saying that Anita got GTA or Hitman wrong

 

[bsod]

So the problem with tropes is that is a lazy storytelling technique? What has to do with social commentary?

Maybe you should watch one of her videos.

 

[Cyrano]

So the problem with tropes is that is a lazy storytelling technique? What has to do with social commentary?

The problem with tropes is that they're lazy. The problem with tropes and women is that they're also deeply exploitative and misogynistic.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Shocking, I know.

Lazy story writing is lazy.

Yeah, revenge stories sure are boring. They've only been consistently entertaining audiences around the world in just about every culture imaginable since the dawn of humanity. What hack frauds those storytellers are!

Hint: almost every story ever written conforms to certain patterns, as famously outlined by Joseph Campbell.

 

[DragonGirl]

Sorry I didn't mean to read into your post wrong. I was confused. I would never put words in your mouth. I'm extremely sorry, please forgive me.

For the record I never said that Bayonetta doesn't have sexist elements to it. That you can't look at all characters on a surface level and criticize them as tropes. Because Bayonetta does require the context of the game becaus it subverts the trope, I think you have to know this since the trope is no longer the exact trope that you think it is purely from a surface level.

Why is that important? Because new issues can arise that need be discussed. But you can't do that if you've already pigeon holed it into another trope.

I think you missed my edit where I was clarifying I'm not talking about Bayonetta, just a general debate trend.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This is why I don't do Kickstarter any more. It's all turned into "fund my life" stuff that is technically against their terms of service but KS doesn't give any fucks.

Deliver what you are selling.

44% went to wages and salary. That's not fund my life. I will never understand why people think Kickstarter donations are income.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Because some tropes help reinforce social norms in a negative way.

But then, how are they still negative when they are presented with the roles changed?

I understand the fact that the Damnsel in distress is overwhemly presented with the male saving the female, but I don't understand what social norms reinforces when is presented in reverse. At that's why I say context is important.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, revenge stories sure are boring. They've only been consistently entertaining audiences around the world in just about every culture imaginable since the dawn of humanity. What hack frauds those storytellers are!

Hint: almost every story ever written conforms to certain patterns, as famously outlined by Joseph Campbell.

Oh god don't get me started on what people have done with Campbell's work...

 

[jrDev]

All that money, an unfinished production and zero solutions.

What in the world? Did she stop producing the videos?

Isn't it funny that the only people that are complaining about the backers' money are the ones that didn't back her kickstarter?

.

 

[FlyinJ]

Isn't it funny that the only people that are complaining about the backers' money are the ones that didn't back her kickstarter?

Hey now, a guy in this thread had a friend whose friend backed her and the friend's friend was upset the videos were taking too long.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Maybe you should watch one of her videos.

Not talking about her videos here, just saying context is necessary.

The problem with tropes is that they're lazy. The problem with tropes and women is that they're also deeply exploitative and misogynistic.

I understand, but for the first part you only need to grab them and put them on a list. For the second part, is not just as easy as that, so context is important?

 

[JDSN]

Hey now, a guy in this thread had a friend whose friend backed her and the friend's friend was upset the videos were taking too long.

#Notyourfriendsfriendsshield

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I agree that I think she, at the very least, doesn't seem familiar enough with Bayonetta. I won't claim Bayonetta is empowering, but the fact that several prominent feminist critics do means that there's something interesting going on, we're on the same page there. But Bayonetta is really fucking weird. She's possibly the weirdest prominent female character in gaming today, and the fact that such a subversion can exist doesn't mean that we should give the benefit of the doubt to every seeming instance of a trope. I don't, for example, see many feminist critics saying that Anita got GTA or Hitman wrong

You can say that about most Japanese made characters in anime, manga, and games. It all gets lumped in the "weird" category if your not in tune with the culture and medium.