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[Aostia]

I still think that the best thing for Zelda U would be to start à la God of war 3. in the middle of the "everything", to really start the game (narration, mechanics explanation and so on) only later. E3 video could be a good start, for example.

 

[pupcoffee]

I will probably cry if it starts with a simple, tasteful cutscene of Link entering the foreground, and then cuts to gameplay. With a cave nearby.

 

[banofypie]

Just start it off like every other Zelda but trim the fat and put the first tutorial dungeon an hour into the game rather than 5+.

 

[TheMoon]

I honestly don't see the issue. You don't have to use it at all, so who cares what it ends up being used for.

I've heard so many people complaining about dousing that I thought I was going to be forced to use it. Meaning, that even if I knew where to find something, that I would still needed to use dosing to "find" it.

But after playing the game I learned that it wasn't like that at all (among a ton of other SS complaints), it was completely optional and you can pretty much forget dousing exists while playing.

You had games press straight up lying to our faces about being "forced" to use dousing. It's ridiculous.

is that why fi kept popping out to tell you she's added new dowsing targets and didn't let you forget about it

also, sandship?

it isn't optional, stop with that banal and incorrect justification please

It is, stop with the SS drama please.

 

[Übermatik]

You know what I loved in TP? Double Hookshot. I was actually super excited when I found out that was the new item you got in the Sky dungeon. Didn't really see it coming either, I was just a bit confused up until that point!

 

[banofypie]

Literally gave an example in that post you quoted, but I don't think there's a point in bothering with people who are being stubborn about something who have also told me I have bad opinions because I don't agree with them.

Enjoy your delusion.

 

[Shuggananas]

You know what I loved in TP? Double Hookshot. I was actually super excited when I found out that was the new item you got in the Sky dungeon. Didn't really see it coming either, I was just a bit confused up until that point!

I wasn't :/
I'm always super excited about new items in dungeons in zelda.

So you're in the sky dungeon, the level design is a bit crazy, with many vertical rooms and such
"what could the item be ? an item to fly ? something else ?"
"you found another hookshot lol"
"oh..."

 

[Übermatik]

I wasn't :/
I'm always super excited about new items in dungeons in zelda.

So you're in the sky dungeon, the level design is a bit crazy, with many vertical rooms and such
"what could the item be ? an item to fly ? something else ?"
"you found another hookshot lol"
"oh..."

Haha, must admit, I was kinda taken aback at first... but when you get to use the Double Clawshot it becomes so much fun! Especially in later areas of the dungeon.

 

[banofypie]

I'd have loved to have that item way earlier. That said, the whip in SS is one of the most underwhelming things ever because of how absolutely useless it is.

Hope that doesn't appear in Zelda U.

 

[radcliff]

With regards to how they can handle dungeon difficulty in an open world game, I think they can do what they did in the original LoZ and number the dungeons. Something like: Temple of Time (Level 5). If you complete dungeons 1-2 and you somehow stumble upon dungeon 5 before dungeon 3, then you know to expect tougher enemies and puzzles. You could either decide to tackle the dungeon then, or look for # 3 and come back to #5 later.

 

[Mato]

I'm playing through Castlevania SotN for the first time. It has made me realize how much enjoyable it is to have a large amount of items to choose from to create your own strategy and equipment. It makes Zelda games seem very limited and claustrophobic in the regard. This kind of open ended flow where you are left to choose how to progress and with whichever means you desire is very interesting and almost new to me even though I've played both open world and RPG games before. Even Super Metroid (which is divine) is very strict and rigid in the items/equipment area. I would really like to be given this kind of freedom with the next Zelda.

 

[The Boat]

The areas in SS felt more like "levels" and less like a world than any other Zelda. Dungeonifying the outside world was not a good choice. Zelda works best when the dungeons and open world are well contrasted.

Delving into a dungeon should feel like entering a world unto itself with it's own rules and pacing. When the entire world feels that way, you lose out on a lot of the satisfaction.

It's one of the secrets to Dark Souls' success. The contrast between light and dark. It's become a cliché to compare the two franchises, but FROM really nails this.

Dark Souls has nothing of this sort, the rules, pacing, mechanics are always pretty much the same. There is no distinction between areas that works as you say regarding Zelda dungeons, in fact, it's pretty much the opposite. The world is always packed with stuff to do, even if all you do is kill enemies (or get killed) for the most part, there are no contrasting areas in term of mechanics.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Haha, must admit, I was kinda taken aback at first... but when you get to use the Double Clawshot it becomes so much fun! Especially in later areas of the dungeon.

Yeah. Plus,it looked pretty cool.

 

[The Boat]

I know it's not going to happen, but I'd love it if they went full Just Cause with the hookshot and sailcloth.

 

[tci]

Has anyone else been bothered by the fact that mundane items like the bow, whip, boomerang, bombs, and slingshot actually have to be obtained in a dungeon before being accessible for use? Items found in dungeons should be mystical and out of the ordinary like the dominion rod, flying beetle, or hookshot.

I agree.

For a few years I have been thinking about just that in Zelda. The items in dungeons should be special. Like items to stop the "gods" or help defeat a really strong enemy.

My wish is to have the entire world accessible. You would even see the temples as well, but not access them until you have found the right item. To find them you will need to do questing and explore the world. Maybe you get it from a NPC, or perhaps from a smaller dungeon. Make us explore the world, not go through temple after temple each time.

 

[Yankee Fever]

Has anyone else been bothered by the fact that mundane items like the bow, whip, boomerang, bombs, and slingshot actually have to be obtained in a dungeon before being accessible for use? Items found in dungeons should be mystical and out of the ordinary like the dominion rod, flying beetle, or hookshot.

i think that a Link Between Worlds is a laying the groundwork to move towards that direction.

 

[pinkurocket]

Has anyone else been bothered by the fact that mundane items like the bow, whip, boomerang, bombs, and slingshot actually have to be obtained in a dungeon before being accessible for use? Items found in dungeons should be mystical and out of the ordinary like the dominion rod, flying beetle, or hookshot.

That's a really good point.
Well, in SS you get some of the more 'mundane' items from characters, like the slingshot and the bomb bag. They aren't mystical items uncovered deep in a dungeons. The items in dungeons often look way more creative like actual relics, even if some have basic features like the whip (I love that design).

So I hope Zelda U brings some creativity to the items as well.

 

[ReyVGM]

I'm playing through Castlevania SotN for the first time. It has made me realize how much enjoyable it is to have a large amount of items to choose from to create your own strategy and equipment. It makes Zelda games seem very limited and claustrophobic in the regard. This kind of open ended flow where you are left to choose how to progress and with whichever means you desire is very interesting and almost new to me even though I've played both open world and RPG games before. Even Super Metroid (which is divine) is very strict and rigid in the items/equipment area. I would really like to be given this kind of freedom with the next Zelda.

I could we wrong but I remember someone from Nintendo saying in an interview that the reason why the inventory is "limited" is because that makes each item special. Having a lot of swords and shields diminishes the impact of each weapon.

Having said that, I wish there were more weapons yes, but not like an RPG where you're collecting crappy swords every 10 minutes.

I really liked the upgrade system from SS, I hope they go crazy expansive with that in the next game.
I also liked how you had those items like the emblems that gave you advantages. I wish they expand that, like the rings from the Oracle games, or even the masks from Majora.

 

[takriel]

I agree.

For a few years I have been thinking about just that in Zelda. The items in dungeons should be special. Like items to stop the "gods" or help defeat a really strong enemy.

My wish is to have the entire world accessible. You would even see the temples as well, but not access them until you have found the right item. To find them you will need to do questing and explore the world. Maybe you get it from a NPC, or perhaps from a smaller dungeon. Make us explore the world, not go through temple after temple each time.

See that's why I'm being pessimistic about EAD 3. These dudes develop Zelda games for a living, but somehow can't manage to come up with really groundbreaking ideas. Zelda U has everything going for it and has a real potential to shake things up, but watch them do the same collect 3 important items, middle story sequence, collect 5 more important items, end story sequence again, just in an open-world scenario. While we're at it, why not have Link dream of an ominous evil again at the beginning of the game?

Ah well, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I really liked the upgrade system from SS, I hope they go crazy expansive with that in the next game.
I also liked how you had those items like the emblems that gave you advantages. I wish they expand that, like the rings from the Oracle games, or even the masks from Majora.

This is possibly my most wanted feature in ZeldaU. I absolutely love when they give us some low-level equipment/outfit customization. It blends so well with the series it's incredible they don't do it more.

 

[DecoyOctopus]

http://a.pomf.se/yjwgus.gif

http://a.pomf.se/fjmnuh.gif

Sorry for interrupting any conversation going on. Just thought it would be a good idea to repost DecoyOctopus's color corrected GIFs.

Here's the final version of the first gif I'm not sure if I even posted it in this thread.

 

[TheMoon]

See that's why I'm being pessimistic about EAD 3. These dudes develop Zelda games for a living, but somehow can't manage to come up with really groundbreaking ideas. Zelda U has everything going for it and has a real potential to shake things up, but watch them do the same collect 3 important items, middle story sequence, collect 5 more important items, end story sequence again, just in an open-world scenario. While we're at it, why not have Link dream of an ominous evil again at the beginning of the game?

Ah well, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

You say can't. But Aonuma commented on this multiple times already. They have members on the team that are incredibly wary of deviating from some of those roots because nostalgia whereas him and some others keep trying to push away from some of those stalwarts. Mix that with story always being a later-in-dev-cycle type of deal and you'll see how this keeps happening.

 

[Peltz]

See that's why I'm being pessimistic about EAD 3. These dudes develop Zelda games for a living, but somehow can't manage to come up with really groundbreaking ideas. Zelda U has everything going for it and has a real potential to shake things up, but watch them do the same collect 3 important items, middle story sequence, collect 5 more important items, end story sequence again, just in an open-world scenario. While we're at it, why not have Link dream of an ominous evil again at the beginning of the game?

Ah well, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

I don't really agree that EAD3 doesn't come up with groundbreaking ideas. The painting mechanic in ALBW was pretty innovative, and completely changed the way you needed to navigate an otherwise fairly familiar landscape.

Many puzzles in SS were also very unique and innovative. The timestones were also really interesting.

I agree that the actual "progression structure" of the games could be more different, but I never get the sense that Zelda games are "samey" just because they appear the same from a high level as far as plot is concerned. A fresh plot would be nice. But I won't be disappointed with another retelling of the LTTP motif.

 

[ika]

This means nothing, but I saw this puzzle on Reddit that is apparently officially licensed, that shows a map of Hyrule. How cool wouldn't it be to see Castor Wilds in this game??

Wow! That's a pretty awesome puzzle/map! Just purchased @ Amazon lol!

Any chance this is some early art for Zelda U or this is older/unofficial? It's kinda similar to the map we saw last month at Game Awards.

 

[James Scott]

I imagine this has been posted a bunch of times, but do you guys think Xenoblade X's artstyle went from the more colorful style of Xenoblade to the more gritty (final) fantasy look in order to differentiate it more from the colorful Zelda U?
I imagine Nintendo wouldn't want the games to get mixed up seeing as they are both massive open world fantasy games.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Skyward Sword is one open world hub (the sky), and several semi-open hubs (the ground) that are structured and operate more like dungeons than typical open worlds. This was, I figure, a response to fans clamouring for more interactivity in the open world and Nintendo's talk of adding dungeon like elements to it. I mean, structurally they're still not dungeons. The ground still works very similarly to Hyrule Field and all other tangent locations from previous Zelda games, so it kinda bugs me when people say Skyward Sword didn't have a hub/open world/Hyrule Field. They look different, are structured a bit differently, and at times a bit tighter in play space, but fundamentally they still offer that free, at-your-own-pace play and exploration. And the sky is structurally very similar to Wind Waker's ocean, just much smaller. And I'm really happy Nintendo experimented with these ideas and combined the two, because in my opinion a majority of Skyward Sword plays very well as a Zelda game.

That being said, and I've said it before, I also think Skyward Sword was a good vision restricted by the wrong hardware. Two halves, a massive open sky, vertical play in discovering new floating islands and what not, ground areas/dungeons to explore, etc. All of this would have benefited from stronger hardware that could blur the lines in loading and scale/density of each area.

When Nintendo talks about Skyward Sword being the "biggest Zelda" they're not lying. It's got more stuff in it, scale and content, than any other.

EDIT: As it stands my big worry with Zelda U is how they'll flesh out the open world with interesting content. Pushing for a strict deadline on a mediocre selling system does not fill me with hope, but we'll see.

I agree with all of this.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Has anyone else been bothered by the fact that mundane items like the bow, whip, boomerang, bombs, and slingshot actually have to be obtained in a dungeon before being accessible for use? Items found in dungeons should be mystical and out of the ordinary like the dominion rod, flying beetle, or hookshot.

I'm not bothered by it, but I wouldn't mind if some of the more earthly items were starters.
Not all of them though; again, for me finding items in the dungeons or in dungeon-like areas is what creates an enjoyably mysterious and discovery filled play aesthetic for me in the Zelda games.
Even so called "mudane" items like the whip or bow are fun to find in dungeons, especially if they lead to some engaging and inventive puzzles or "platforming" (I really don't know what else to call it...) segments.
But yeah, I wouldn't mind starting off with maybe items like the slingshot, bombs, or boomerang; it might actually save the quality of the level design if EAD3 ever decides to go full sandbox.

Edit:

This is possibly my most wanted feature in ZeldaU. I absolutely love when they give us some low-level equipment/outfit customization. It blends so well with the series it's incredible they don't do it more.

I think customization works best in Zelda when it compliments the interplay between Link's mechanics, his items, and the environment.
Like upgrading a combat item like the sword in Zelda is whatever...hell, upgrading anything for the sake of combat just seems pointless in most LoZ games.
I mean, I'll probably have some posters fight me on this but Zelda isn't an action hack 'n slash game or an action rpg...it's combat-segments mainly exist to break up the pace and add an extra bit of spice to the overall experience; they really are the perfect example of a "difference in kind", I'm not saying they're purely for "shallow" aesthetic purposes but the systems as they are now are no where near as developed as the puzzle stuff or the "platforming"/traversal mechanics.

Imo upgrades like making the beetle item from Skyward Sword fly longer or faster, or giving it mandibles to grab things is what I'd love to see more of from the series because it leads to more interesting obstacle and puzzle dynamics.

I guess building more unique "generalized" items like the beetle that really lend themselves to awesome and substantial upgrades is something that I'm hoping we see in Zelda U and in future games.

Edit: Wow...those gifs are really messing with the page for me.
:/

 

[KiN0]

I'm not bothered by it, but I wouldn't mind if some of the more earthly items were starters.
Not all of them though; again, for me finding items in the dungeons or in dungeon-like areas is what creates an enjoyably mysterious and discovery filled play aesthetic for me in the Zelda games.
Even so called "mudane" items like the whip or bow are fun to find in dungeons, especially if they lead to some engaging and inventive puzzles or "platforming" (I really don't know what else to call it...) segments.
But yeah, I wouldn't mind starting off with maybe items like the slingshot, bombs, or boomerang; it might actually save the quality of the level design if EAD3 ever decides to go full sandbox.:/

I just think it's really underwhelming to make my way to a dungeon's chest and open to find a bow. A bow just like the one an enemy was using on me as I made my journey here. It's like a logical inconsistency to me. Why couldn't I take the enemy's bow for myself instead of having to wait for a dungeon to give me one?

While I'm on this note about dungeon items, I've always found it odd that solutions to dungeon are hidden within the dungeons themselves. A dungeon is supposed to keep something in yet the map, the keys, and the special item necessary to navigate the dungeon are pretty much available to any who are trapped inside. If there's another thing I want from Zelda U, it's the removal of these items from the dungeons.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Here's the final version of the first gif I'm not sure if I even posted in this thread.

That tressfx on the horse is going to melt Wii Us this holiday. Nintendo is playing with fire

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I just think it's really underwhelming to make my way to a dungeon's chest and open to find a bow. A bow just like the one an enemy was using on me as I made my journey here. It's like a logical inconsistency to me. Why couldn't I take the enemy's bow for myself instead of having to wait for a dungeon to give me one?

While I'm on this note about dungeon items, I've always found it odd that solutions to dungeon are hidden within the dungeons themselves. A dungeon is supposed to keep something in yet the map, the keys, and the special item necessary to navigate the dungeon are pretty much available to any who are trapped inside. If there's another thing I want from Zelda U, it's the removal of these items from the dungeons.

Hmmm...
That's a great point on your part. :>
I never really thought about it but it is pretty weird that you can't just take an enemy's bow and arrows when you kill them.
I guess if I were at EAD3 and I was responding to your criticism I'd make it so the "hero's bow" came with magical elemental like ice, fire, and electricity from the get go so it feels more "mystical"/special and I can design more interesting obstacles, puzzles, and enemies around it.


Edit: Even though I'm fine with getting the regular bow and arrows in dungeons, I'm actually kind of surprised that EAD3 hasn't defaulted to making the "Hero's Bow" enchanted from the moment the player picks it up (so they can separate it from the regular bows that the enemies have); I've always loved the elemental properties that came along with the item in games like OoT and WW.

 

[sinxtanx]

That tressfx on the horse is going to melt Wii Us this holiday. Nintendo is playing with fire

I know you're joking but for correctness' sake: those are regular run-of-the-mill cloth physics

 

[RagnarokX]

Has anyone else been bothered by the fact that mundane items like the bow, whip, boomerang, bombs, and slingshot actually have to be obtained in a dungeon before being accessible for use? Items found in dungeons should be mystical and out of the ordinary like the dominion rod, flying beetle, or hookshot.

Eh, usually it makes sense when those items are in the dungeons. When the boomerang is a dungeon item it's usually because it's associated with the Kokiri and it's often a magic boomerang that can lock on to multiple targets or blow wind. Bombs are associated with Gorons so it makes sense when the bombs are obtained in their dungeons. Bombs are also usually usable before you get the bomb bag via bomb flowers, but you can't stock them. Also keep in mind that dungeons are not always sacred temples. Sometimes they are just caves or mines or factories.

Let's just look at what dungeons have in the 3D Zeldas:

OoT
Great Deku Tree: slingshot
Dodongo's Cavern: bomb bag
Jabu Jabu's Belly: boomerang
Forest Temple: bow
Fire Temple: hammer
Water Temple: longshot
Shadow Temple: Hover Boots
Spirit Temple: mirror shield

Everything makes sense except the boomerang imo. You originally acquire the hookshot outside the dungeon. Iron boots

MM
Woodfall: bow
Snowhead: fire arrow
Great Bay: ice arrow
Stone Tower: light arrow

All other items are obtained elsewhere.

Wind Waker
Dragonroost: grappling hook (obtained from Medli)
Forbidden Woods: boomerang
Tower of the Gods: bow
Forsaken Fortress 2: hammer
Earth Temple: mirror shield
Wind Temple: hookshot

Other items such as the deku leaf obtained outside of dungeon. Everything makes sense except the hookshot, really.

Twilight Princess:
Forest Temple: gale boomerang
Goron Mines: bow (what?)
Lakebed Temple: clawshot
Arbiter's Grounds: spinner
Temple of Time: dominion rod
Snowpeak Ruins: ball and chain (obtained from suit of armor miniboss)
City in the Sky: Another clawshot.

Other items like slingshot, bombs, and iron boots obtained outside of dungeon. City in the Sky is not a sacred temple and the clawshot is implied to be Oocca technology, as is the spinner and dominion rod. Bow makes no sense in the mines.

Skyward Sword:
Skyview Temple: beetle
Earth Temple: bomb bag: stolen from a Mogma.
Lanayru Mining Facility: gust bellows
Ancient Cistern: whip
Sand Ship: bow
Fire Sanctuary: Mogma mitts (given to you by a Mogma)

The beetle, gust bellows, and bow are ancient lanayru technology in this game. The bomb bag and Mogma mitts belong to the Mogma and are obtained from them. You obtain other items outside of the dungeons, such as the slingshot and double clawshot. The whip doesn't appear to have any real reason for being where it is, though maybe it was used the way Link uses it in the game to activate valves and such. It's not exactly mundane as it is some kind of magical whip. The original design for it would have made more sense as it looks like it belonged to the Bokoblins.

I remember when ALBW came out and revealed there would be no dungeon items people got upset, but I think people with that mindset are approaching things all wrong. To them the item is the reward for the dungeon, but really it should be that the dungeon itself is the reward. Figuring out how to complete the puzzles and reach the boss is the reason you go there and the items are tools to help you accomplish that goal. Whether you get the item in the dungeon or outside the dungeon shouldn't really matter. It's how the items are used that's important.

See that's why I'm being pessimistic about EAD 3. These dudes develop Zelda games for a living, but somehow can't manage to come up with really groundbreaking ideas. Zelda U has everything going for it and has a real potential to shake things up, but watch them do the same collect 3 important items, middle story sequence, collect 5 more important items, end story sequence again, just in an open-world scenario. While we're at it, why not have Link dream of an ominous evil again at the beginning of the game?

Ah well, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

They always come up with great ideas. All of that timeshift stone stuff in Skyward Sword was amazing and puzzles in general are pretty fresh and great in each installment.

 

[Joqu]

Getting them outside of dungeons is neat but I'd rather not have those more mundane items like bombs or projectiles be available from the start. I know people aren't fond of this but I love it when I see cracks in a wall or whatever in an earlier area and I know I'll have to make a mental note of that and check it out later a la Metroid.

Give me reasons to go back to those areas instead of making me forget about them! I shouldn't be able to fully clear a dungeon in one go as far as I'm concerned. Stuff like that really adds to the whole adventure feeling to me.

Yeah, I love backtracking when it's done well. It's fun as long as the areas are interesting!

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I remember when ALBW came out and revealed there would be no dungeon items people got upset, but I think people with that mindset are approaching things all wrong. To them the item is the reward for the dungeon, but really it should be that the dungeon itself is the reward. Figuring out how to complete the puzzles and reach the boss is the reason you go there and the items are tools to help you accomplish that goal. Whether you get the item in the dungeon or outside the dungeon shouldn't really matter. It's how the items are used that's important.

Yeah.
Getting items outside of the dungeons is a phenomenon that occurs quite frequently in LoZ; I generally enjoy Zelda's narrative elements and I' think they've become a pretty important element in the last 17 or so years, so interacting with colorful NPCs by completing their challenges/tasks to get a key item or talking to them to get clues on where to find a mini-dungeon or dungeon-like area where a key item might be hiding is more than welcomed.

My personal issue with the way ALBW handled the majority of it's item distribution is that it took a lot of the feelings of mystery and discovery out of finding the items and using them within the level designs by essentially reducing them to the level of something incredibly mundane and easily obtained like a health potion, more bombs, or more disposable bits of ammo for Link's projectiles...


Edit: I sincerely hope that the item shop concept hasn't gotten anywhere near this project.

 

[sinxtanx]

Item that needs to be in this game: Rope arrows, plus the rope swinging mechanic from wind waker

 

[RagnarokX]

Yeah.
Getting items outside of the dungeons is a phenomenon that occurs quite frequently in LoZ; I generally enjoy Zelda's narrative elements and I' think they've become a pretty important element in the last 17 or so years, so interacting with colorful NPCs by completing their challenges/tasks to get a key item or talking to them to get clues on where to find a mini-dungeon or dungeon-like area where a key item might be hiding is more than welcomed.

My personal issue with the way ALBW handled item distribution is that it took a lot of the feelings of mystery and discovery out of finding the items and using them within the level designs by essentially reducing them to the level of something incredibly mundane and easily obtained like a health potion, more bombs, or more disposable bits of ammo for Link's projectiles...


Edit: I sincerely hope that the item shop concept hasn't gotten anywhere near this project.

Well, on a surface level it makes sense for stuff like the bow, hammer, bombs, and boomerang to be sold at the shop, but things like the fire rod, ice rod, tornado rod, and hookshot not so much. But the game has a very good reason for why such mystical items are sold at this particular shop (

Spoiler

the shop owner is the hero of Lorule

).

The real problem with the way ALBW handled things was that since you could buy any item at any time instead of obtaining them in a set order like every other Zelda game the developers had no way of knowing what your inventory would be at any given time and had to lower the complexity of the dungeons accordingly. When they REALLY wanted you to have more than one item in a dungeon it was usually the bombs and they would just put those bomb monsters in the dungeon. This also had the effect of making most items in the game worthless. I had almost no use for the boomerang and bow. The fire, ice, and tornado rods completely outshown everything else in combat.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I know you're joking but for correctness' sake: those are regular run-of-the-mill cloth physics

Glad you understand me

 

[TheMoon]

Other items like slingshot, bombs, and iron boots obtained outside of dungeon. City in the Sky is not a sacred temple and the clawshot is implied to be Oocca technology, as is the spinner and dominion rod. Bow makes no sense in the mines.

The bow being inside the mines is actually explained well, I think. It's a treasure kept hidden and safe by the Gorons as it is a relic from an ancient hero (hence it being called the Hero's Bow in TP). So it's not just a random bow in a treasure. You get it after defeating the mini-boss (a.k.a. the guardian of the treasure), proving your worth (since they don't have good network coverage in those caves and the Gorons can't phone down there to let him know you're cool).

 

[Always-honest]

I just think it's really underwhelming to make my way to a dungeon's chest and open to find a bow. A bow just like the one an enemy was using on me as I made my journey here. It's like a logical inconsistency to me. Why couldn't I take the enemy's bow for myself instead of having to wait for a dungeon to give me one?

While I'm on this note about dungeon items, I've always found it odd that solutions to dungeon are hidden within the dungeons themselves. A dungeon is supposed to keep something in yet the map, the keys, and the special item necessary to navigate the dungeon are pretty much available to any who are trapped inside. If there's another thing I want from Zelda U, it's the removal of these items from the dungeons.

Haha, pretty good point.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Well, on a surface level it makes sense for stuff like the bow, hammer, bombs, and boomerang to be sold at the shop, but things like the fire rod, ice rod, tornado rod, and hookshot not so much. But the game has a very good reason for why such mystical items are sold at this particular shop (

Spoiler

the shop owner is the hero of Lorule

).

The real problem with the way ALBW handled things was that since you could buy any item at any time instead of obtaining them in a set order like every other Zelda game the developers had no way of knowing what your inventory would be at any given time and had to lower the complexity of the dungeons accordingly. When they REALLY wanted you to have more than one item in a dungeon it was usually the bombs and they would just put those bomb monsters in the dungeon. This also had the effect of making most items in the game worthless. I had almost no use for the boomerang and bow. The fire, ice, and tornado rods completely outshown everything else in combat.

I agree with everything your saying, the design problems that you outlined are my biggest issues with the item shop system and the free roaming initiative that came with ALBW.
I guess my post was tackling the item distribution from a more emotional aesthetic/investment sense, if you get my drift.
All that stuff is just as important to me as the gameplay part (ite serves to add even more weight to an already weighty experience), so it's kind of weird to me personally (despite the fact that yeah, technically it did make sense why the item shop existed and it is true that stuff like the bombs or bow and arrow aren't out of place in an item shop.) that the items "feel" more disposable and mundane than they really should be.
Like...participating in some sort of off-beat auction to win the "Ice Rod" from a ritzy museum only to lose it so some rich jerk who's mansion I have to sneak into to steal it from at night carries a lot more emotional weight for me (seeing as there are more steaks and game design involved in that scenario) then just purchasing it from some guy in my house and buggering off to find the sign that corresponds with the purchase.
In my opinion from a purely emotional aesthetic sense it just cheapens the item mechanics and takes away everything that makes finding them engaging and unique in an LoZ game.

 

[vasametropolis]

While I'm on this note about dungeon items, I've always found it odd that solutions to dungeon are hidden within the dungeons themselves. A dungeon is supposed to keep something in yet the map, the keys, and the special item necessary to navigate the dungeon are pretty much available to any who are trapped inside. If there's another thing I want from Zelda U, it's the removal of these items from the dungeons.

I've... never thought of it like that. Clues and items to solve a temple collected externally. It's so blatantly obvious... this would be a great change.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

While we're all talking about things we'd like in Zelda--

Neither my sister nor myself are fans of Zelda being in need of rescue every single game (sometimes is fine, every time she appears is...problematic). We were talking about this and about Zelda U at the same time, including Link's odd clothing choice of a cloak (which hides his face).

We thought it would be super interesting if Link and Zelda's roles were essentially reversed in one game--don't make Zelda the hero or anything, but make Link the one in hiding.

Basically, Ganon/villain of the week always goes after Zelda because the Triforce of Wisdom is tied to a bloodline and therefore easier to locate than Courage, which is a total wild card. But you can't just expect Courage to fall in your lap all the time. They should be looking for that one, too. If the villain somehow got tipped off as to where it was, it could force Link into hiding (=cloak + running all over the kingdom) while he tries to find Zelda so they can unite their pieces against Power. Like a reversal of Link and Sheik's relationship in OoT.

Anyway, I really liked the idea because a) it's a fun twist on the lore, b) it doesn't victimize Zelda, c) it's flexible enough to fit over all kinds of Nintendo's "gameplay first" models, and d) it retains the "find the princess!" thing they're stuck on whenever she's present.

Spoiler

And I'm a bit sad we'll probably never see anything like this.

 

[blu]

I've... never thought of it like that. Clues and items to solve a temple collected externally. It's so blatantly obvious... this would be a great change.

I much prefer the current self-sufficiency of the dungeons.

 

[tesla246]

I much prefer the current self-sufficiency of the dungeons.

I concur. Also, if items were to be obtained outside of the dungeons, they should be blatantly telling you needing "x" item to enter this dungeon, which kinda spoils any surprise a dungeon may have in its set-up. That, or design some standard pre dungeon puzzles only to be solved with the item needed in the dungeon to gain acces. Otherwise you might be stuck in a dungeon half-way through realizing you need a certain item, i.e. backtracking. Which would not work in zelda when you're in the midst of a dungeon.

Conclusively, each dungeon revolving around a specific item is imo still the best way to design a dungeon by far. However, Nintendo's excecution of it has been less then great, for example with SS. Dungeons should be more open in design, less linear, in so that it opens itself up when the obtained dungeon item opens up different paths to take which have puzzles affecting something in the main room/other rooms. This leads to awareness of the environments and thus a challenge on how to tackle the next certain rooms. This interconnected puzzle-solving/rooms along with a higher difficulty, leads to a sense of progression and accomplishment throughout the players own thinking. Something I thought was severely lacking in SS which sadly opted for quite linear game-design (sand-ship was good though, if I remember correctly).

Secondly, which may be a bit more difficult task to accomplish, there needs to be a certain surprise in item handling. I mean, bombs/arrows are fun weapons, but as a Zelda veteran, the moment you enter such a dungeon, you already know what those "eyes on the wall" are for. Therefore such items should be used/obtained mostly (but not exclusively) outside of dungeons (think of minigames,sidequests, wandering off in the overworld, etc.) and other, more creative new items should be given the spotlight in certain dungeons. I think that was one of TP strong suits; the rod, ball&chain and spinner were all original and well excecuted items, and were part of the reason those dungeons are loved so much.

EDIT: Imo dungeons, when designed as good as in TP, require the least attention. Its about everything outside of dungeons that nintendo needs to improve upon greatly (npc, minigames, sidequests, overwold design, rupee/reward system, difficulty innovation/originality in game design>enemy design,items and improving story-telling through "nintendo's" way, pacing etc.).

Nintendo really needs to ask itself what defines the zelda series as what they did with galaxy for 3D mario. Hopefully, they (among zelda fans) realize what it is that makes majoras mask not only the most engaging zelda, but one of the finer games ever created.

 

[ReyVGM]

You know, I was listening to Gamexplain's recent video about "A Newcomer's Thoughts on Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D", and the guy was saying how it impressed him when he finished a dungeon (I think the snowhead temple?), how the environment would change to reflect that and he thought that he really felt like what he did actually mattered into the world of the game.

And then I thought of that comment Miyamoto made recently about how what you do could change the world/environment in Zelda WiiU, and I got really excited about the prospect of the world being a "living" place ala Majora's Mask. We already know there are going to be a lot of sidequests. I believe Miyamoto or Aonuma made a comment saying that this game has a night/day cycle (and a weather system too?), and there's also the comment about the trees "having apples the last time we were here".

So, like I said on previous comments, all of that leads me to believe that this game will have NPCs with schedules judging by the clock seen on the map screen and how there's a night/day cycle, weather system, possible camping equipment on the horse to "pass the time" (like how Xenoblade Chronicles X is doing, and like Skyward Sword did).

Certain people have said "but how will schedules work here if Majora's Mask let you rewind time?".
Well, you don't need to rewind. You just go or follow an NPC to start the sidequest, if you can't keep up or you don't figure out at what time you are supposed to encounter him next, then you just start over the next day.
Or maybe you "complete" a certain phase of that sidequest on one day, and then continue with the next phase the next day.

 

[BY2K]

So GDC is next week.

I'll still eat my pants if we get anything on Zelda Wii U.

Just to be clear, I want footage. New footage. If we only get some two lines in a random interview that means nothing, it doesn't count.

 

[ReyVGM]

So GDC is next week.

I'll still eat my pants if we get anything on Zelda Wii U.

Just to be clear, I want footage. New footage. If we only get some two lines in a random interview that means nothing, it doesn't count.

Be realistic... you can't eat your pants.

Do something you can actually do if you're wrong

 

[OricWindstar]

So GDC is next week.

I'll still eat my pants if we get anything on Zelda Wii U.

Just to be clear, I want footage. New footage. If we only get some two lines in a random interview that means nothing, it doesn't count.

Still wearing that tag from the last incident. I'd be careful with your claims.

 

[Astral Dog]

I much prefer the current self-sufficiency of the dungeons.

The problem is that people are too used to it, hey you can't advance the dungeon unless you go back to the town, do a sidequest, play a minigame or find a key on the overworld, most people will be confused o frustrated unless the game tells you exactly where the key is.

 

[RAWi]

Be realistic... you can't eat your pants.

Do something you can actually do if you're wrong

Eat... crow?


We need at least an image...

Makes me remember of the good times with this: