Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal

Status
Not open for further replies.
12-4 for the night. Also on a 6 win streak. Feels like a good place to stop for the night.

I'm really digging my control paladin deck. I almost question why I never added a second lay on hands before because it seems very strong in a lot of match ups. The only match up that lay on hands really sucks in is rogue which... lets face it... control paladin gets wrecked by that oil rogue deck anyway. Even against face hunters, it is incredible for stabilizing and putting myself out of range.

Wild pyromancer is the MVP of my control paladin deck again. I kinda felt like zombie chow was really working when there was a lot of mech mage, but I think wild pyromancer is just as good but with wider uses and still really complements equality (even 9 mana pyro+equality = the balls). Where wild pyromancer vastly exceeds zombie chow is mid to late game uses. Wild pyro + consecration = 3 damage aoe = great. Wild pyro + seal of light, humility, and even lay on hands is very good as well (just had a match where lay + pyro basically won me the game by taking out a 6/1 and healing out of lethal.

Cut down to 1 muster and I am not really regretting it much.



The pic is a link to a larger version for better viewing purposes if desired.
 
Wondering what the current statistics are on turn one vs turn 2 with coin. With a lot of these zoo decks and synergy it seems coin might be quite beneficial these days.
 
homeworkfilms said:
Wondering what the current statistics are on turn one vs turn 2 with coin. With a lot of these zoo decks and synergy it seems coin might be quite beneficial these days.
Click to expand...

It's always been close to 50/50 since the beginning of the game, I think. Dropping a minion on turn 1 if you're zoo/facehunter (or a mana wyrm) is still really good, since you have so many tools to extend that momentum. Having coin for turn 2/3 plays does matter a lot for mechwarper, so that might skew things.

I always prefer coin in Arena because coining out a 2-drop is really strong there, especially since people don't really get to draft a ton of strong 1-drops. If you can get ahead and trade favorably every turn it really limits their comeback potential. I don't think my win record necessarily reflects my preferences, though.
 
homeworkfilms said:
Wondering what the current statistics are on turn one vs turn 2 with coin. With a lot of these zoo decks and synergy it seems coin might be quite beneficial these days.
Click to expand...
I am almost willing to bet that Turn 2 has more wins. There's a lot more BS you can pull off with the coin. 100% Rogues have better winrate with the coin. For rest of the classes it's more evenish.

Definitely advantageous to have coin in Arena. Double two drop (or two drop with removal that costs 2 mana) or coin 4 drop (especially Paladin) or 1 drop into coin Velen's Chosen are all devastating moves at the start.


In Arena, whoever has the board initiative and can maintain it usually wins. The coin helps you get the upper hand.
 
The other classes favored 1st turn iirc, but Rogue had something like a +4% win rate for going 2nd.
 
I want to make a addition that I am talking about the current Hunter/Mech meta, not overall. Before having 1st turn was more advantageous when the meta wasn't as aggressive. Nowadays things have changed and you can lose to stuff like turn 2 Mechwarper, coin Snowchugger, double 1 drops.

In Control vs Control, coin is less relevant.
 
Right, but we only had hard stats that one time from Blizzard. Things are much different now of course.
 
I got to thinking after facing a bunch of mech mages in a row. turn 2 with coin is insane value. it seems to negate any minion disadvantage for a turn one player to drop something.
 
Rogue has a better winrate going second for sure, but all other classes have a slight advantage going first. Don't let the occasional coin power-play convince you otherwise. ESPECIALLY in arena, whoever is going first is going to put down the first minion most of the time, which means they're going to have initiative until the second player does at least one more 2-for-1 card trade than the first player.
 
Turn one's advantage doesn't come from minions (since no one plays 1 drops except hyperaggro decks), but from the faster curve. It means they'll always be able to trade their 2 drop into yours, then dump a 3 drop for you to deal with. If decks only played minions, the first player's curve is superior every time.
 
Haly said:
Turn one's advantage doesn't come from minions (since no one plays 1 drops except hyperaggro decks), but from the faster curve. It means they'll always be able to trade their 2 drop into yours, then dump a 3 drop for you to deal with. If decks only played minions, the first player's curve is superior every time.
Click to expand...

I think cards like zombie chow and mana wyrm were meant as a way for control archetypes to have strong turn 1s that can control the board and trade favorably vs 2-drops, as opposed to stuff like arcane missile which doesn't leave you with a board presence. Theoretically almost all the noteworthy 1-drops are fantastic turn 1 plays, but the downside is that they're generally not very good on any other turn.
 
Haly said:
Turn one's advantage doesn't come from minions (since no one plays 1 drops except hyperaggro decks), but from the faster curve. It means they'll always be able to trade their 2 drop into yours, then dump a 3 drop for you to deal with. If decks only played minions, the first player's curve is superior every time.
Click to expand...

No one plays 1 drops because they're too easy to get 2-for-1'd. Early minion advantage is negated whenever a 2-for-1 happens.

But the faster curve is also true. They will have that mana advantage nearly every turn, while the player with the coin only gets the mana advantage on one turn. The coin is visible and obvious, which is why people are tricked into believing that going second is preferable. But think of it this way. If a player went second, but got a free coin that was played instantly every turn, and wasn't considered a spell or triggered combos, that would be effectively the same as going first. Suddenly a single coin doesn't seem so good.

The faster curve comes into play in several other ways. Consider the play between Sludge Belcher and The Black Knight. If you're going first and play Sludge Belcher on curve, your opponent who goes second cannot play The Black Knight. They have to respond to your Sludge Belcher with a 5-mana play, unless they have the coin in their hand. But if you're going second and you play Sludge Belcher on curve, your opponent can IMMEDIATELY respond with The Black Knight, and they don't have to worry about whether they have the coin or not.

That faster curve means that the player who goes first has more options to respond to their opponent's previous play than the player who goes second, until Turn 10.
 
ZealousD said:
Rogue has a better winrate going second for sure, but all other classes have a slight advantage going first. Don't let the occasional coin power-play convince you otherwise. ESPECIALLY in arena, whoever is going first is going to put down the first minion most of the time, which means they're going to have initiative until the second player does at least one more 2-for-1 card trade than the first player.
Click to expand...
It's not really that simple.

Let's say it's Priest vs Paladin. Priest turn 1, doesn't put down anything because most of the time players do not have a good 1 drop at turn 1. Player 2 doesn't put down anything. Player 1 puts down a 2 drop, player 2 puts down a 2 drop. Player 1 puts down Dark Cultist (the best 3 drop essentially) and trades his 2 drop into the other player's 2 drops. Player 2 coins out Truesilver Champion, takes out Dark Cultist and player 1 is now at a distadvantage because whatever they throw down is most likely going to be killed (anything short of a Yeti basically).

This happens way too frequently. If it's not that it's usually Mage turn 1 coin Snowchugger, player 1 throws down a minion and then the Mage uses Frostbolt and keeps the pressure up.

Another common 1st turn coin drop play is drop some random 3/2 drop as Paladin, then next turn Argent Protector the 2 drop to keep him alive and maintain board control. This snowballs over the coarse of the game unless the other player has AOE or some big tempo swing card.

All of this is amplified greatly by so many sticky minions these days where it's very important to have the first big play on board. That's why a lot of Arena matches are decided early by a big power play usually with a coin like a turn 1 minion into coin Velen's Chosen.


Turn 1 has huge advantage however if they have something like a Zombie Chow or a stealth worgen vs the other person's 3/2. Especially true if it's like Zombie Chow into Argent Protector, absolutely devastating. But there aren't as many 1 drops in the game to make a difference off the bat... it's usually a 2 drop combo or a powerful 4 drop with the occasional tempo swing cards after turn 4 like a turn 5 Fire Elemental.

Usually if the turn 2 player doesn't have a good use of the coin then they are at a disadvantage of course because turn 1 player will put down the bigger minion first. But the coin does a lot in smoothing out one's curve. You can get by not having a 3 drop going 2nd because of the coin but as a 1st player if you don't have a play there then you are at a disadvantage (which used to happen a lot but not as much now).
 
Dahbomb said:
It's not really that simple.

Let's say it's Priest vs Paladin. Priest turn 1, doesn't put down anything because most of the time players do not have a good 1 drop at turn 1. Player 2 doesn't put down anything. Player 1 puts down a 2 drop, player 2 puts down a 2 drop. Player 1 puts down Dark Cultist (the best 3 drop essentially) and trades his 2 drop into the other player's 2 drops. Player 2 coins out Truesilver Champion, takes out Dark Cultist and player 1 is now at a distadvantage because whatever they throw down is most likely going to be killed (anything short of a Yeti basically).
Click to expand...

This doesn't contradict anything I just said. The Truesilver Champion means that player 2 gets their 2-for-1 before Player 1 did. Until that Truesilver Champion came down, player 1 had the initiative. If cards are trading evenly, then Player 1 has advantage. And as long as Player 1 has the advantage, they are more likely to get those 2-for-1's themselves.
 
Rapstah said:
If you play Deathwing to kill an enemy Sylvanas, Sylvanas' Deathrattle will steal the Deathwing. I think you're right that Rend's Battlecry will trigger before he is really in play, but then the game should wait to actually kill off the target until he is in play, meaning it doesn't really matter.

Correct me if wrong, please.
Click to expand...

You're correct. I've had this happen to me - hunter had a clear board and 14 health, I had two minions and 12 health. He dropped Deathwing.

My minions were Sylvanas and a Harvest Golem.

I got DW plus the injured golem.

: )
 
They've actually confirmed that going second has a slightly lower winrate than going first, not once, not twice, or three times... heck I have lost count. They have even confirmed it still remains true post gvg.

This is June last year, post naxxramas. http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/13140423942?page=11#215

The Coin data is still relevant from when Ben discussed it some time ago: It's still slightly better to go first.
Click to expand...

This is dated September, so slightly before GVG came out. http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/14609741001#15

To be fair, people don't believe us even when we do provide data. As an example of this, discussions about the Coin. It is still slightly more advantageous to go first rather than go second, but it feels better to go second. The emotional response of that perceived benefit is strong.
Click to expand...

Here is post gvg: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/15699384663?page=4#72

Just for the record: based on current data, going first is still slightly more advantageous than going second. Also, to clarify the central discussion in this thread, no, the cards introduced in Goblins vs Gnomes have not offered an advantage to the player going second.

Like many others, I also often feel more secure going second, but alas, it's just a feeling, and one that's not backed up by the data.
Click to expand...


It isn't hard data they are giving but they've explained that they will not give hard data because they don't want to influence the meta by giving out information.
 
I'll believe this data when I see it.


Blizzard always does stuff like this.

"Monks are in a good place."

"Our data shows that Dr. Balanced isn't used in most decks."

"Meta is great right now, lots of decks viable."

"The AH has had a positive influence on the game."
etc. etc.
 
Dahbomb said:
I'll believe this data when I see it.


Blizzard always does stuff like this.

"Monks are in a good place."

"Our data shows that Dr. Balanced isn't used in most decks."

"Meta is great right now, lots of decks viable."

"The AH has had a positive influence on the game."
etc. etc.
Click to expand...

You could always gather your own data. You could even track hearthstone tournament results.

I have a lot 246 matches recorded with this specific paladin deck (+ all its versions included).

112 games going second
134 times going first

159-87
37 losses with no coin
50 losses with coin

97 wins with no coin
62 wins with coin

My winrate with coin = 52%
Winrate without coin = 72%

Unfortuneately the hearthstone deck tracker doesn't conveniently display winrate via coin or statistics that way. I had to hand count all of them which takes a while, otherwise I'd do more decks + classes. You really do need a lot of statistics for it to be an accurate depiction, across multiple classes of course.

Anyway, that has been my experience in GVG... the data goes back to late janurary when I first made the deck. And while you might think, well paladin doesn't benefit from coin much. But aggro decks do, right? And I'd say over half my matches were against aggro decks. So sure, they benefit from coin more than I might, but I benefit from going first more than they benefit from coin.
 
My point about them not sharing data works both ways.

If tomorrow they released data that going first has a huge advantage over going second then there would be a mass hysteria and people would demand for a patch.

Also I don't buy their "it would affect the meta" argument. You can't control going 1st or 2nd... you can't plan your deck around it nor can you plan your strategy around it. The only thing it would change is people would blame Blizzard for their terrible balance and design while crying everything they lost going 2nd.


This reminds me of the DOTA 2 situation of Dire vs Radiant Roshan advantage, some what. For years we put up with it until Valve finally changed.
 
Mobius and pet octopus said:
12-4 for the night. Also on a 6 win streak. Feels like a good place to stop for the night.

I'm really digging my control paladin deck. I almost question why I never added a second lay on hands before because it seems very strong in a lot of match ups. The only match up that lay on hands really sucks in is rogue which... lets face it... control paladin gets wrecked by that oil rogue deck anyway. Even against face hunters, it is incredible for stabilizing and putting myself out of range.

Wild pyromancer is the MVP of my control paladin deck again. I kinda felt like zombie chow was really working when there was a lot of mech mage, but I think wild pyromancer is just as good but with wider uses and still really complements equality (even 9 mana pyro+equality = the balls). Where wild pyromancer vastly exceeds zombie chow is mid to late game uses. Wild pyro + consecration = 3 damage aoe = great. Wild pyro + seal of light, humility, and even lay on hands is very good as well (just had a match where lay + pyro basically won me the game by taking out a 6/1 and healing out of lethal.
Click to expand...

How are you handling aggro decks, like face hunter? My win rate is bad this month against them, if I don't get the right draws its usually over fast.
I don't run zombie chow in my pally deck. I added Kezan to help with the secrets.
 
What's the consensus on Iron Juggernaut? I know the biggest benefit is totally random, but since Warriors tend to carry the match into late rounds, and thus increasing the chances of the effect, I thought about crafting it. It's either that or Ysera, I have pretty much every useful legendary (except Tirion, but I don't play Paladins much).


I'm considering experimenting with Ysera because I find myself low on cards at times, late-game with my warrior, waiting for the right draw to close out the game.
 
I haven't had a good time lately. I'm not winning with my "good" decks, and I'm usually losing before I can pull off fun combos with my fun decks.

I couldn't even complete my daily today (5 wins as Mage/Shaman) in the time I had.

/salty
 
ZealousD said:
They have zero reason to lie about this. You are falling prey to confirmation bias. Don't.
Click to expand...

they also spent a lot of time thinking about it and testing it. and it's not like they were going into it blind. there are other card games that had to solve the same problem.

add to that they have no incentive to keep the game imbalanced. the opposite of that, actually.
 
Mr Cola said:
If you are already in the game do you just stay in? Watching two streamers who are playing without issue
Click to expand...
I find that very doubtful, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. As for regions, I would of guessed that everything goes dowN at the same time, but again I'm not too sure on that.
 
I am often up playing between 5-7 AM Central time which is near the time they begin maintenance. As it turns out, if you're mid-match you won't be kicked out, but once the match ends you will either be disconnected or simply never be able to find a match. It has varied for me though I'm not sure why. But, definitely, you can not start new matches once maintenance begins.
 
Golgo 13 said:
What's the consensus on Iron Juggernaut? I know the biggest benefit is totally random, but since Warriors tend to carry the match into late rounds, and thus increasing the chances of the effect, I thought about crafting it. It's either that or Ysera, I have pretty much every useful legendary (except Tirion, but I don't play Paladins much).


I'm considering experimenting with Ysera because I find myself low on cards at times, late-game with my warrior, waiting for the right draw to close out the game.
Click to expand...

It sucks, don't waste your dust. Alexstraza + Grommash are infinitely better finishers.

Even an unremoved Ragnaros has better odds of finishing off games.
 
Loto said:
How are you handling aggro decks, like face hunter? My win rate is bad this month against them, if I don't get the right draws its usually over fast.
I don't run zombie chow in my pally deck. I added Kezan to help with the secrets.
Click to expand...

Since face hunter usually only runs explosive trap, traps usually aren't a problem. I just fight for board, try to reduce damage as much as possible early on, don't attack face when they have a secret up because it is likely explosive trap. You'll eventually want to proc the trap but you'll really want to do it when it is safe, like you have sufficient health to survive kill command + hero power, perhaps a taunt to protect from 1-2 charge minions as well.

Unlike mech mage, ctrl paladins don't really need to race against hunters to finish the match (even mech mage can be outlasted as long as they don't get crazy value off of antonidas like 4+ fireballs). The goal is to survive long enough for them to run out of steam and lack the ability to do continuous damage every turn. Then with heals I just continually put myself out of lethal range, until they either give up or my minions kill him. Usually face hunters give up pretty quickly, especially if they have a slow start.

Golgo 13 said:
What's the consensus on Iron Juggernaut? I know the biggest benefit is totally random, but since Warriors tend to carry the match into late rounds, and thus increasing the chances of the effect, I thought about crafting it. It's either that or Ysera, I have pretty much every useful legendary (except Tirion, but I don't play Paladins much).


I'm considering experimenting with Ysera because I find myself low on cards at times, late-game with my warrior, waiting for the right draw to close out the game.
Click to expand...

I think ysera works pretty well in control warrior. But right now I'd wait and see what happens with the expansion before crafting much.
 
Hunter has 4 HP.

Hunter has a full board (inc Rag) and some hounds etc... I have Dr Boom, bots and 23 HP.

Hunter Marks Dr Boom and takes him out, he then starts facing me but obviously decided to take out one of the bots to make sure Rag is more likely to hit me.

It dies and hits him....for 4 HP.

:D
 
Special C said:
Anyone run 2 Cleaves in Control Warrior? I'm thinking it would be good to have them in the current meta.
Click to expand...
There's nothing wrong with Cleave, but card space is so valuable that it's not a popular choice. Doesn't mean it can't work for you, though.



And to people giving advice on cards, thank you. I may just wait, or possibly craft Tirion for future use.
 
Gully State said:
Can someone explain to me what happened? I don't know the cards well enough to follow..
Click to expand...

He has a Lightwarden which gains +2 attack every time a character is healed and 2 Northshire Clerics which draw a card every time a minion is healed. He kills off one of his Northshire Clerics and another minion so that he doesn't over draw when healing and then uses Wild Pyromancer, which deals one damage to all minions every time a spell is played, to damage the whole board and Circle of Healing, which heals all minions on the board, to buff his Lightwarden up enough for lethal.
 
Golgo 13 said:
What's the consensus on Iron Juggernaut? I know the biggest benefit is totally random, but since Warriors tend to carry the match into late rounds, and thus increasing the chances of the effect, I thought about crafting it. It's either that or Ysera, I have pretty much every useful legendary (except Tirion, but I don't play Paladins much).


I'm considering experimenting with Ysera because I find myself low on cards at times, late-game with my warrior, waiting for the right draw to close out the game.
Click to expand...

Iron juggernaut is too slow. So is Ysera. I actually ran them both in control warrior when I made a deck that didn't have any bgh targets (also I wanted to get value from unused legendaries) and that deck was way worse than the standard control warrior line up of grom, boom, Alex and Rag.

Plus I'd wait to craft until the expansion. Maybe the new meta will make a currently unpopular legendary into a vital one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Hearthstone |OT10| Ultimate Infuriation
42 43 44 45 46
2K
242K
SirKicksalot replied
Like The Witcher games? Join me in my quest to create a "readthrough" of the books GAF
4
1K
mindfreak191 replied
Star Wars : Galaxy of Heroes |OT2| There Is Another
2 3
147
25K
Malmorian replied
Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood |OT2| Y'all Need to Calm Down (Ultimate)
5 6 7 8 9
415
90K
YukiOnna replied
Splatoon 2 |OT2| From Smallfry to FlyFish in 5 Easy Steps!
87 88 89 90 91
5K
515K
Hinedorf replied
Top Bottom