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[bengraven]

I take issue with the "it's about Theon's pain" argument. I don't think anyone was intending to make it a Theon scene. Theon is our conduit - we don't see it ourselves, we see Theon's reactions to it. It's not about him, it's more about not showing us the actual event.

Still didn't need to happen...he could have waited outside the door and you see his reactions that way.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Was there this much outrage when Emelia Clarke's character was raped?

Um, actually there was outrage especially since it's different than the books. However, you can't compare the two since A) Most people hadn't read the books at that point and B) The audience didn't know anything about Dany in that very first episode, with Sansa the audience literally watched as a character they witnessed grow up in front of their eyes was violently raped by a psychopath.

 

[Neverfade]

Actually, we didn't.

At this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm sorry you're not enjoying the show. That sucks.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No. I don't even know what RotK is. My point is in regards to boycotting something because it somehow offends you

See you can boycott things for good reasons and bad reasons.

You can absolutely boycott something and at the same time poke fun at or discredit or critique why someone else is boycotting something else.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

"When I read that scene, I kinda loved it. I love the way Ramsay had Theon watching. It was all so messed up. It’s also so daunting for me to do it. I’ve been making [producer Bryan Cogman] feel so bad for writing that scene: “I can’t believe you’re doing this to me!” But I secretly loved it." --Sophie Turner

I know this doesn't 'solve' any of the 'problems', but I kind of loved it too. Why? I'm perverse.

 

[youbastards]

I mean, not necessarily...that's true for some fiction but not all of it, and definitely not the entire point of it...

No, you're confusing that I said ALL fiction ignores it, of course it doesn't.

Fiction allows ALL creators to do WHATEVER they want in the medium that they choose to tell their story. To dictate to the creator what that entails is censorship.

If you don't like it, it's your right to be outraged, but its just as outrageous to expect the creator of said fiction to be expected to cater to your morals and opinions.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Again with the idea that when it's males it isn't troubling, but females....hoooo boy. Can you not see the sexism in this line of thinking?

I'm not sure what you're getting at? When did I say it's fine for men to be raped and abused on TV?

Literally what I said was that this show features acts of sexual violence specifically targeted at women to elicit some kind of shock factor or to advance male character's story arcs. This is both lazy and disgusting.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

From an acting perspective I can appreciate your point. From a storytelling perspwctive, I disagree.

This is literally ending your chapter "And then Sansa was raped" followed by a paragraph on how that made Theon feel.

The only way in which this scene has any barong on the narrative (not the fact that Sansa was raped, but the actual scene) is if it's a catalyst for change in Theon's story.

And that woild just be shitty.

What could/should they have shown? Just fade to black after the wedding scene? Wake up wrapped in sheets?

Why is Theon a less important character than Sansa?

 

[Moff]

This is such a straw man argument. "Why should we help poor people in America when they're better off than poor people in Africa?"

Media is a MASSIVE influence on the way people view things. We should absolutely be concerned with what our media consists of and it is scary as fuck when pretty much the most talked about TV show consistently rapes and abuses the female characters in it for nothing other than shock value or to make male characters feel bad.

I absolutely understand the medias role in rape culture and agree with you on that. but if anything this episode and the show in general certainly don't add to it but fight it. it's not like anyone likes what is happening here. it's supposed to be disturbing and disgusting.

 

[NervousXtian]

Have you read TWOW about Alayne that came out recently? Sansa doesn't have any power, no, but the way her arc is going in the books, as shown by that chapter shows that she's on the path to power, and a much less egregious one that that of the show.

Curious, because with the way the show has been going, what power does/did she have before she married Ramsay?

She had no army, she had no followers.. she just had a name. A name that was more than likely going to get her killed before she could rile up any army.

So I'm not sure how the arc goes in the books, but clearly this arc has the potential to see Sansa become powerful.

 

[The Silver]

I'm a little surprised at the outrage... not entirely shocked but a little surprised. I don't quite get the criticism that the scene served no purpose. Do people really think nothing will come out of this scene? Like in the next episode things will go right back to where they were?

I'm not sure what Sansa thinking, but I doubt she really grasped the reality that is being brutally raped on your wedding night. This point marks an obvious all-time low for the character... I'd like to think this is now the point where things start to change. However, I do understand that people are tired of seeing Sansa being continuously powerless. I am also tired of it, but saying that the scene served no purpose other than shock value I think is shortsighted. In fact, they could have made it a lot more shocking if they wanted to. I was kind of shocked they showed basically nothing and just cut to black (with sounds... yeah).

I think she knew it, the same exact thing was going to happen in King's Landing but she got lucky that Tyrion was a good person. Of course she's still going to express pain but she knew what the deal was for a long time.

She wasn't shocked when Ramsey told her to take off her clothes, what really rattled her was when he made Theon watch.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Did people outraged like this when Khal Drogo raped Daenerys back in S1?

Spoiler

And yes i know in the books it was consensual

From what I can recall, yes. Same with

Spoiler

Cersei's rape in Joffery's tomb

last season

 

[Vincent Grayson]

So why this. Not Theon losing his manhood, or babies being stabbed or the countless other atrocities. This just reeks of SJW reactionism and outrage culture. This prevailing idea that rape is somehow worse than murder is crazy.

Rape is far more common than murder, and leaves its victims alive and having to deal with a life after being raped (not to mention the social ramifications).

I think this alone accounts for why reactions are so much stronger to rape in media than murder.

I've never known (personally) anyone who has been murdered. I've known many, many women who have been raped.

And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure a lot of people reacted poorly to Theon's treatment previously.

 

[Kusagari]

Um, actually there was outrage especially since it's different than the books. However, you can't compare the two since A) Most people hadn't read the books at that point and B) The audience didn't know anything about Dany in that very first episode, with Sansa the audience literally watched as a character they witnessed grow up in front of their eyes was violently raped by a psychopath.

Isn't B just furthering the argument that the people suddenly completely outraged are viewing some rape as worse than others?

I find it hard to believe any other character, except for Arya, put in this exact scenario would inspire this level of outrage.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

it is scary as fuck when pretty much the most talked about TV show consistently rapes and abuses the female characters in it for nothing other than shock value or to make male characters feel bad.

Is there some sort of "rape guide" that needs to be consulted to figure exactly which criteria need to be met in order for rape to acceptable in media? Westeros is a shitty place, shitty things happen for no other reason than it's a shitty place with shitty people. That should enough justification for shitty things we see happen in the show/books. I think you start down a path toward absurdity when you try to justify something that happens to a character because it has some utilitarian purpose to their development. That's not how real life works. I wouldn't be ok with my daughter getting raped because she came out of it a stronger person in the end. The ends don't justify the means, neither in real life or in the show. That you're looking for the ends to justify the means is weird.

 

[Netherscourge]

Ramsay Bolton shouldn't even be alive.

The instances where he escapes death are almost ridiculous at this point.

Him still being alive is almost absurd.

 

[Buddha Beam]

Don't have the scene. Like you said, there was no other way this could have gone. Just don't have the scene, everyone would know what happened that night without it, having it hang in the air unspoken makes it feel much weightier and less about gratuitous shock value.

Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying it adds nothing, or that doing it the way you suggest would be better?

Maybe this event is what sets Reek back on the road towards his humanity. Maybe Sansa stays strong through all of Ramsay's cruelty. How effective would that scene have been had we not seen it in that instance, for example?

There have been countless acts of various types of violence in this show, and for the most part, they've all happened for a reasonable narrative reason. At the very least, wait and see what the fallout is.

 

[DXLelouch153]

Ramsay is a complete piece of shit
if you didnt see this coming you need to get your head out of your ass

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I absolutely understand the medias role in rape culture and agree with you on that. but if anything this episode and the show in general certainly don't add to it but fight it. it's not like anyone likes what is happening here. it's supposed to be disturbing and disgusting.

But it's still exploitative and unnecessary, as much of the mainstream media seems to have finally picked up on.

Sexual violence towards women is common enough in the real world and yet the writers felt for some god awful reason that it would be a good idea to put a character who, for all intents and purposes, should have been safe from this, into that situation in order to act as motivation for a male character and also to shock the audience is just lazy and exploitative. They literally plucked this act from someone else's character arc who isn't even in the show and applied it to Sansa for ratings. Nobody wanted to see that, nobody should have had to see that.

 

[F!ReW!Re]

My guess is that the showrunners feel it will eventually be justified because Theon is going to kill Ramsay. Pretty cheap way to "raise the stakes," though. Ramsay's various forms of mental abuse and manipulation have proven plenty powerful.

But doesn't it show that THIS is the line for Theon?
That you can basically make him do anything / abuse him / mutilate him.
But that now that he's being shown a girl who he's cared for most of his life, who's family he has betrayed, is being raped in front of his eyes and that it's the final straw for him.
The point where he decides he doesn't give a fuck any more and is gonna try to either:
- kill ramsey
- save Sansa
- all of the above

Isn't that a clear difference from just showing "Ramsay is bad"

 

[neogaffer1]

It's one chapter in a book of a thousand pages. She can be on the path of power in one chapter and have her head chopped off in the next. Pointing to one point in time and saying "that's how it's supposed to be!!" in a GoT book seems silly.

Sure, we don't know how that plays out. But that one chapter sets up several different actions and even if it does end with her death, I doubt the character herself will regress to letting others abuse her. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow if that's true.

But at least if it ends that way, it ends that way for whatever reason, and since GRRM is a great writer, it would make sense and happen in a way that isn't, for a lack of words, "bullshit." With the show it's only happening because they are shoving characters together in order to get through as much as possible, which isn't a great justification.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Actually, we didn't. The scenes we'd seen of Gorgo prior to that were of her love for her husband, either through direcr expressions of such, or by trying to rally aid for him.

In that scene, while I do find it a tad problematic as the first scene in which we see her deeper machinations, you see Gorgo and you don't see sorrow, or fear, you see wheels turning. And that tells you something about her. That scene justified its existence in the narrative.

You don't know where the narrative is going. The episode was not part of a self-contained 120 minute story.

This is this season's equivalent to people who stopped watching after the Red Wedding. Yes, it sucks that a character you were emotionally invested in didn't come out on top, that does not make the narrative "worthless".

But it's still exploitative and unnecessary, as much of the mainstream media seems to have finally picked up on.

Sexual violence towards women is common enough in the real world and yet the writers felt for some god awful reason that it would be a good idea to put a character who, for all intents and purposes, should have been safe from this, into that situation in order to act as motivation for a male character and also to shock the audience is just lazy and exploitative. They literally plucked this act from someone else's character arc who isn't even in the show and applied it to Sansa for ratings. Nobody wanted to see that, nobody should have had to see that.

You basically just said "character A should have plot armor because REASONS".

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Is there some sort of "rape guide" that needs to be consulted to figure exactly which criteria need to be met in order for rape to acceptable in media? Westeros is a shitty place, shitty things happen for no other reason than it's a shitty place with shitty people. That should enough justification for shitty things we see happen in the show/books. I think you start down a path toward absurdity when you try to justify something that happens to a character because it has some utilitarian purpose to their development. That's not how real life works. I wouldn't be ok with my daughter getting raped because she came out of it a stronger person in the end. The ends don't justify the means, neither in real life or in the show. That you're looking for the ends to justify the means is weird.

You should read the long list of quotes from critics a page or two back, it explains a lot of the reasons why this particular instance is problematic. Rape is terrible but there are ways to depict it in media, just like there are ways to depict murder, that are not insensitive, unnecessary, or just for shock value.

 

[ReadingRambo]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? When did I say it's fine for men to be raped and abused on TV?

Literally what I said was that this show features acts of sexual violence specifically targeted at women to elicit some kind of shock factor or to advance male character's story arcs. This is both lazy and disgusting.

It happens to men in the show too! That's what I'm saying. I am not, however, going to argue about which atrocities advance this character or that character....because that would be an annoying endeavor.

 

[Cybit]

Have you read TWOW about Alayne that came out recently? Sansa doesn't have any power, no, but the way her arc is going in the books, as shown by that chapter shows that she's on the path to power, and a much less egregious one that that of the show.

That's a terrible assumption to make. This is GoT / ASOIAF. Do not think for a second that Martin isn't absolutely willing to subvert and satire the tropes and expectations that are within the story itself. Part of the reason this is such a kick in the balls to many is that at this point, a lot of the viewers believed they sort of have GoT figured out on a meta scale. Jon's gonna be the hero, Sansa's gonna reclaim the north, Cersei's gonna get her comeuppance, etc etc. Except GoT blew up the expectations in a very divisive way with Sansa; and it would be foolish to think that ASOIAF won't be willing to do something similar again.

Generally speaking, the show has made Sansa a character with more agency and more power than the book series. For all we know, something bad is going to happen to Sansa in TWoW, and the showrunners have been clued in via Martin and gone ahead and changed the order up to have the "setback" in her story earlier rather than later.

 

[Yaboosh]

Curious, because with the way the show has been going, what power does/did she have before she married Ramsay?

She had no army, she had no followers.. she just had a name. A name that was more than likely going to get her killed before she could rile up any army.

So I'm not sure how the arc goes in the books, but clearly this arc has the potential to see Sansa become powerful.

Marrying Ramsay isn't going to be what gives her power. She will never have use of those loyal to the Bolton's. What will give her power is simply being in Winterfell and being the rallying point for the inevitable Stark rebellion. The North Remembers and all that.

Not much different from what you are saying, but i think an important distinction.

 

[DXLelouch153]

if it wakes up Theon and brings about Ramsays death then it served a purpose
otherwise pure shock value

 

[Blader]

Sansa had 0 clue how bad of a person Ramsay was.

She sacrificed herself to marry Ramsay yes, that was her choice. She never would have done it if she knew what this Ramsay dude is capable of.

I don't really think that's true. At the very least, she knows he's the son of the man who helped murder her family. I don't think she has any illusions that she's marrying a good man, even if she isn't acutely aware of how psychotic he truly is. It's all, I think/hope, playing into a grander plan of avenging her family against the Boltons.

That wasn't what I was arguing, but probably - yes. See: Nights Watch mutineer scene, which was pretty graphic. Maybe I missed it, but that was not a controversy, at least not like this.

Then, again, that's ridiculous. If you're outraged by rape, then you're outraged by rape, period. You shouldn't play favorites with who is and isn't raped and have less of a problem with some than others. Rape is rape.

 

[Ashhong]

That didn't happen in the books, place the blame on D&D for being shit showrunners who rely so much on excesses that this stuff feels exploitative. Nor do they have much benefit of the doubt after purposely editing a scene into a rape scene last season (once again, one that didn't occur in the books).

This season just might kill the show lol.

What was the rape scene last season that they edited in? I can't remember one..

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

It's pretty amusing how divorced many people are from the realities of history. GoT even makes this stuff easier to swallow under the veneer of fantasy.

I don't know about you but I've not seen a lot of homosexual rape in the show despite it being fairly common in medieval times but 'realities of history' eh?

So why this. Not Theon losing his manhood, or babies being stabbed or the countless other atrocities. This just reeks of SJW reactionism and outrage culture. This prevailing idea that rape is somehow worse than murder is crazy.

This is a pretty stupid post. Outrage and reactions stem from the attitudes and the state of society at present. Babies being stabbed or individuals losing their manhood isn't as prominent an issue as rape in current times - we aren't living in feudal times, so of course there is going to be outrage against a show which repeatedly and graphically depicts female rapes. It doesn't make rape appear 'worse' than murder, it simply recognises there is more sensitivity attached to the depiction of one over the other.

Dismissing it as 'outrage culture' is incredibly narrow-minded.

 

[ultron87]

Ramsay is a complete piece of shit
if you didnt see this coming you need to get your head out of your ass

"I didn't see this coming" is not the reason anyone is mad.

 

[The Adder]

What could/should they have shown? Just fade to black after the wedding scene? Wake up wrapped in sheets?

Why is Theon a less important character than Sansa?

Let me start with your last sentence:

Because it's the scene in which Sansa is raped. Needing to include a scene of Sansa being raped for the sake of Theon's character developement is shitty writing on so many levels. A scene of minor character that Theon likes being raped for Theon's charactet developement is, while socially problematic, fine from a writing stand point. But hobbling one of your pov characters for the sake of another is not.

And go read my previous posts to see what I mean by hobbling. That Sansa was raped isn't what I'm referring to.

As for what should have been shown? See previous posts. I'd retype or copy paste but I'm doing this from a cell phone while at work.

 

[Moff]

But it's still exploitative and unnecessary, as much of the mainstream media seems to have finally picked up on.

Sexual violence towards women is common enough in the real world and yet the writers felt for some god awful reason that it would be a good idea to put a character who, for all intents and purposes, should have been safe from this, into that situation in order to act as motivation for a male character and also to shock the audience is just lazy and exploitative. They literally plucked this act from someone else's character arc who isn't even in the show and applied it to Sansa for ratings. Nobody wanted to see that, nobody should have had to see that.

but isn't the fact that sexual violence against women is common enough in the real world all the more reason to mirror that in fiction and remind us of that? it's not like it was glorified in any way. it was simply brutal and terrifying.
and I completely understand the need to switch out the characters, as I read the books, but for spoiler reasons i won't discuss it in detail in this thread.
however, for everything related to "rape culture" i don't think it matters that it happens to another woman in the books.

 

[forrest]

Having only watched the shows, I find it a huge letdown to hear it's diverging from the source material so drastically.

 

[Blader]

Ramsay Bolton shouldn't even be alive.

The instances where he escapes death are almost ridiculous at this point.

Him still being alive is almost absurd.

When has he ever been even close to being in danger?

afaik, he's never been at a point where he was escaping death.

 

[DXLelouch153]

"I didn't see this coming" is not the reason anyone is mad.

i know, im just saying its something Ramsay would do
if you cut a guys dick off your basicly capable of anything

 

[Palette Swap]

I just wish we were outraged about the right things. We can do more in our daily lives to combat actual rape, we could all be doing more to fight global warming, we could be doing more for social inequality and injustice, but hey this TV show I watch did something that makes me feel uncomfortable! Let's waste our time on that.

Speaking only for myself, I'm usually annoyed or concerned way more than outraged. My point is more that framing these as outrage shifts the prism of the conversation by making it sound like this is super important when I'm only commenting, much like I'd be commenting when I say "fuck off WB, your DLC plans are shit", yet no one will tell me my annoyance at WB's shitty DLC policies is outrage culture or that I should feed homeless people rather than comment on business models in gaming.

I understand the perception of slacktivism and it's probably true of people who spend 100% of their time doing just that (if they exist) but it's effectively throwing everyone under the bus by holding them to a discourse standard and exemplarity we never really expect in other conversations.

(sorry for the meta commentary)

 

[GameGuru59]

This has already caused one of my friends who was a huge fan before this season to decide to drop the show entirely. Several other people I know seem to be considering it.

It isn't really just the use of rape (again) it's how carelessly it seems to have been inserted in this created storyline and into Sansa's character arc to create drama. As that Deadspin article put it "The problem isn’t that this episode included a rape, but that it did so in the service of bad storytelling. It told the audience nothing that wasn’t already known, and it didn’t advance any plot lines beyond where they already were." This is similar to last season where they had women being raped as background scenery to the evil Night's Watch guys (who we already knew we evil scum bags). Maybe they'll at least follow up on this one unlike last season's apparently unintentional rape scene between Jaime and Cersei.

Wait... What? I get the criticism of the brother/sister lanister rape (when they tried to claim it wasn't) but this is just ridiculous. Its equavilent to criticism of GTA for its violence and saying its going to cause mass chaos for the youth.

 

[Salmonax]

The point where he decides he doesn't give a fuck any more and is gonna try to either:
- kill ramsey
- save Sansa
- all of the above

Isn't that a clear difference from just showing "Ramsay is bad"

Yeah, seems they knew after what Theon's been through, his breaking point had to be singularly horrific. I get it, but I also see why folks feel it's too much.

 

[Mael]

Ah fuck they really did it.
I guess there's a whole of 1 scene I think is better in the show than in the books in this season.
What a let down this season is.
They pretty much destroyed Sansa, Tyrion's and Bronn's character acts, made everything happening in Dorne pointless.
I'm not sure I want to keep watching the show.
e: fuck forgot about the stupid shit they did to Asha.

 

[Ferrio]

Having only watched the shows, I find it a huge letdown to hear it's diverging from the source material so drastically.

It's been diverting for quite awhile. Season 1 was truly the only really super accurate one. Slips each season.

 

[AstroZombie]

In a series known for surprise sex, this is the straw that broke the camel's back? In the book, Theon goes down on Fayra to get her wet for Ramsey, and she gets fucked by dogs. GURM is a sick fuck, but I don't recall any criticism of his writing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

But doesn't it show that THIS is the line for Theon?
That you can basically make him do anything / abuse him / mutilate him.
But that now that he's being shown a girl who he's cared for most of his life, who's family he has betrayed, is being raped in front of his eyes and that it's the final straw for him.
The point where he decides he doesn't give a fuck any more and is gonna try to either:
- kill ramsey
- save Sansa
- all of the above

Isn't that a clear difference from just showing "Ramsay is bad"

Notice you managed to make her rape all about a male character. This is the exact point. If this follows through she was raped to give him motivation to be the hero, rescue her, etc... That's literally the definition of lazy writing.

 

[DXLelouch153]

Having only watched the shows, I find it a huge letdown to hear it's diverging from the source material so drastically.

its either that or we never see the ending cause George dies one day

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I don't understand the sentiment of "ruined character development". Yes, Sansa is a stronger character. But no, she still does not have any real power in the GoT universe. Powerless people are dominated by the powerful. That is the lesson that this story has driven into our skulls since the beginning. Expecting genre tropes to play out like usual was incredibly naive. What did people think was going to happen? That she'd beat him up? Bite his dick off? Somehow turn him into a decent lover like Dany did to Drogo, even though it turns out Drogo was a somewhat decent guy to his friends and family? This isn't Disney's fucking Mulan. Sansa knew what was going to happen when she married him. Talking shit to his handmaiden isn't the same thing as talking down to the Lord of Winterfell. That's why she chose not to fight it. I'm guessing she'll be stronger for the experience as the show moves forward (no spoiler tags, as no one can possibly know where they're going with this).

Ramsey is a monster. And he's worse in the books. At least now we have less people rooting for him or wishing Theon would suffer worse torture.

Exactly! Good post, Sho_Nuff.

Thanks to those tropes, I fully expected Sansa to have a dagger hidden or some ridiculous bullshit like that. Hell, I even expected Theon to hulk out and 'save' her. That's what a lot of other movies/shows have drilled in my mind, even though I know damn well what GoT is and to always expect the worst. I still waited for that grace saving moment to happen.
Unfortunately for Sansa the brutal, heartbreaking reality happened- nothing saved her. Nothing but the gross act happened. That, to me, is bold writing.

 

[Blader]

Let me start with your last sentence:

Because it's the scene in which Sansa is raped. Needing to include a scene of Sansa being raped for the sake of Theon's character developement is shitty writing on so many levels. A scene of minor character that Theon likes being raped for Theon's charactet developement is, while socially problematic, fine from a writing stand point. But hobbling one of your pov characters for the sake of another is not.

And go read my previous posts to see what I mean by hobbling. That Sansa was raped isn't what I'm referring to.

As for what should have been shown? See previous posts. I'd retype or copy paste but I'm doing this from a cell phone while at work.

Inventing a character for the sake of being raped to advance the story of one of your main characters seems like pretty lazy writing to me. It insulates you from having to deal with the consequences of it from happening to one of the main characters -- something that's pretty unusual for this series as is.

 

[Kusagari]

Ramsay Bolton shouldn't even be alive.

The instances where he escapes death are almost ridiculous at this point.

Him still being alive is almost absurd.

In a series with fucking Tyrion you're complaining about Ramsay escaping death?

Let's be real Tyrion should have died 5000 times by now.

 

[soleil]

The biggest thing that pissed me off is how weak the king is. I know he's a kid but even kids know what it means to be a king. He let those religious guys take his wife. Seriously. Weak.

 

[ultron87]

Wait... What? I get the criticism of the brother/sister lanister rape (when they tried to claim it wasn't) but this is just ridiculous. Its equavilent to criticism of GTA for its violence and saying its going to cause mass chaos for the youth.

I'm really not sure which part of my post you are saying is ridiculous or are reacting to.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

You should read the long list of quotes from critics a page or two back, it explains a lot of the reasons why this particular instance is problematic. Rape is terrible but there are ways to depict it in media, just like there are ways to depict murder, that are not insensitive, unnecessary, or just for shock value.

That's primarily what I'm responding to, it's as if the main complaint is that the rape serves no purpose...well fuck, it's rape. Are we really searching for some sort of purpose to make it acceptable to include it? Rape is never acceptable. It's always awful and should be depicted as awful. How is skirting/ignoring the issue, or finding some sort of silver lining going to make it any less awful?

I guess I just don't get it.