Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread

Meanwhile, The Summit's donation drive hit level 5, which bumps the prize pool bonus from $8000 to $10000, as well as a $1500 double draft crew battle (Armada, M2K, Mango, PPMD are captains, players drafted via random snake, characters drafted via reversed order snake).
 
FZZpure said:
Would Melee players be down with the infamous dark hue that all Wii U VC games have?



It just ends up becoming something that is better in almost every single option, and all you're doing is inputting a button for no reason.

It just becomes a drag and puts more wear and tear on player's hands. I'm down for more auto-cancelling moves personally, timing a move perfectly so the landing lag is minimal and you're not too antsy with your combos seems much better imo.
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Only NES & N64 games have this I thought. SNES is fine at least.


Is there anywhere to rewatch the MLG Melee matches yet?
 
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Smash64 isn't port perfect on VC as well, I can't think of any true tournament standard arcade perfect ports besides Dreamcast era honestly, even stuff like 3rd Strike Online are missing things.
 
xezuru said:
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Smash64 isn't port perfect on VC as well, I can't think of any true tournament standard arcade perfect ports besides Dreamcast era honestly, even stuff like 3rd Strike Online are missing things.
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From what little I've read, apparently the Wii's N64 emulator wasn't perfect and it had some frame skip implemented. That made it less than ideal for a tournament. Not sure if it would have that problem on Wii U if they put it there.

At least on Wii U, Melee shouldn't have any issues because the Wii U can run GC code natively (see Nintendont). GC VC is probably more likely to appear on NX though, which may or may not be backward compatible.
 
Pappasman said:
L canceling is important. Any scrub picking up fox with auto l canceling would be bad.
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L-canceling is necessary in melee, but a game without L-canceling would be balanced around it not being there. I'd feel something else can replace what it adds to the game, not sure what though.

On another note I finally entered my first melee tournament and went 3-8, lols it was round robin. Happy with my performance though, I was the only person to take a game off v115, but he SD'd twice.
 
Nairo just beat ZeRo

Daouzin said:
I get where you're coming from, but I see it as separating the interested from the devoteed and I think it would give fast characters too big an advantage.

Also, why go for L canceling if you're going to edge cancel anyway?

Smash is a momentum based game, requiring L cancels strengths that aspect of the game. You can see it when high level players start flubbing tech skill. Mew2king's mental state isn't what it needs to be for a high level competition and you see that when he competes, you don't need a commentator for that. It's just another aspect of how Melee really does show you a players mind/personality. It also makes super fluid movement and combos more artful.

Low level players miss L Cancels all day. The beauty of Melee is that you really do get better every time you sit down with it, L canceling is just a small component of that, but all of the components might be what makes the game so beautiful.
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I definitely agree with you on the sentiment it is a momentum based game, but I just feel like certain mechanics at the highest level of play simply become arbitrary with L-Cancelling being the perfect example. If a person begins to show signs of no confidence it will show in more ways of their play other than just L-Cancelling. Punsihes being dropped, bad reads, missed edgeguards, air dodging by accident, bad DI, etc. So many things show a player is cracking.
 
Can't remember which thread it was in, but I liked Chaosblade's idea for automatic landing lag reduction on hit, and manual reduction (or l-cancelling) on shield or miss. Removes some nuance, but I think it's a great idea.
 
theprodigy said:
Hey guys, is this player who didn't even go a year without dropping a major the most dominant player in esports history?

Kappa
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I'm just staying away from the thread man. Shit is pretty toxic even for gaming side. The other thread about him losing is slightly better but a lot of exaggerated responses going on in there as well.

Congrats to Nairo though. Hopefully this will lead to an era where there are more than 2 legitimate contenders for a Smash 4 tourney, that's what I hope for most. The sets ZeRo and Nairo have, there's a reason they are ahead of everyone else but it is almost as if other player's are reluctant to play with that much aggression despite how rewarding it is in the game if done optimally.

2016 is what I am excited for most. I hope the meta become more aggro than ever (maybe even to the point where they bring back 3 stocks 8 minutes).
 
Super happy for Nairo right now.

At the same time though, it does make me a lot less interested in Smash 4 grands from now on. Now that the streak it broken, a tournament ending with Nario/Zero is just a toss up that doesn't change the story much.

Then again, if Nario dominates for a while, that would be interesting. I'd be rooting so hard for Zero to make his comeback. Plus they always have great sets, so I won't mind watching them regardless.
 
FZZpure said:
I definitely agree with you on the sentiment it is a momentum based game, but I just feel like certain mechanics at the highest level of play simply become arbitrary with L-Cancelling being the perfect example. If a person begins to show signs of no confidence it will show in more ways of their play other than just L-Cancelling. Punsihes being dropped, bad reads, missed edgeguards, air dodging by accident, bad DI, etc. So many things show a player is cracking.
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I don't disagree, but I don't see why we would take away another element of that to make the game easier. If Melee 2 didn't have L canceling I wouldn't be heart broken, but at the same time I do think it would make fast characters too easy to be good with and would allow casuals to be decent without any investment.

I think forcing investment forces people to appreciate things. I don't think Melee would be where it is today if everyone wasn't SO invested.

It's also one of MANY skills that players can be at different levels at, in terms of their skill and that effects play style and is why so many players have Play styles you can identify as, Mango's Fox vs MewtwoKings Fox etc. I believe having 6+ technical skills to have to develop early on is what makes these players build up such unique styles at the peak or end of their careers.

emb said:
Super happy for Nairo right now.

At the same time though, it does make me a lot less interested in Smash 4 grands from now on. Now that the streak it broken, a tournament ending with Nario/Zero is just a toss up that doesn't change the story much.

Then again, if Nario dominates for a while, that would be interesting. I'd be rooting so hard for Zero to make his comeback. Plus they always have great sets, so I won't mind watching them regardless.
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I've been thinking the same thing. I watched to see Zero keep his streak, now that he lost it, I probably won't tune in very often.
 
Daouzin said:
I don't disagree, but I don't see why we would take away another element of that to make the game easier. If Melee 2 didn't have L canceling I wouldn't be heart broken, but at the same time I do think it would make fast characters too easy to be good with and would allow casuals to be decent without any investment.

I think forcing investment forces people to appreciate things. I don't think Melee would be where it is today if everyone wasn't SO invested.

It's also one of MANY skills that players can be at different levels at, in terms of their skill and that effects play style and is why so many players have Play styles you can identify as, Mango's Fox vs MewtwoKings Fox etc. I believe having 6+ technical skills to have to develop early on is what makes these players build up such unique styles at the peak or end of their careers.



I've been thinking the same thing. I watched to see Zero keep his streak, now that he lost it, I probably won't tune in very often.
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Tbh, this post just makes me think that L-canceling makes Melee a better spectator game but a worse game to actually play. It raises the skill ceiling and makes different players more unique to watch, but in practice it feels kind of arbitrary still.

I don't completely dislike L-canceling though. I haven't even been playing with the ability to do it for very long and it already feels natural, even though missed L-cancels happen pretty frequently on my end.
 
I think L-cancelling would be better gone, personally.

Daouzin makes really good points about investment and gradual progression. I also think it just gives the game a super fun feeling, having a reason to press a lot of buttons pretty quickly.

I think lowering the entry barrier would be a bit more valuable. Ideally, it would make more people pick up the game, stick with it, etc. Would make the game a tiny bit faster overall, and a good deal faster at low levels. Would make my hands hurt a little less.

I like the idea of just getting rid of it. But I also enjoy l-cancelling. So I guess I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
 
I'm getting kind of annoyed by people lapping up leffens video on "selling out" as the truth. Leffen acts like he knows what goes on these peoples lives and says they don't deserve to get in because they don't take the game as seriously as him, using them cosplaying and shit as evidence. For all he knows these players could be putting more practice in then him.

Daouzin said:
I appreciate that another new video explaining why Melee is awesome has been posted on YouTube.

What Makes Super Smash Bros. Melee Unique? Feat. Yungtown - WMGU
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Watched the video, feel like he retreads the same ground a lot, wish he went into more detail about the mechanics interact with eachother.
 
So Smash Summit hit the 6th and final level, which increases the prize pool bonus fom $10000 to $12000, increases the doubles prize pool from $2000 to $5000, and unlocks a game of mafia with the players (YES!).

and lastly, 60% of the amount over $30000 will go into the singles pot, which means this prize pool is gonna be really high
 
Finally got my Gamecube adapter, any of you netplay heads want to destroy me at PM/Melee when I'm online, I'd be hella down. Gonna take me a long while to get back my movement, and lol playing with multiple dual shocks previously ruined my trigger intuition.
 
Arizona is having a pretty big tournament on November 14th/15th. I recommend people close to Arizona to go. The badge creation alone is pretty awesome, haha.

Rewired AZ

daouzin.png


List of games are the following:
Melee
Project Melee
Ultra Street Fighter IV
Killer Instinct
Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3
 
Finally playing netplay and humans again I remembered a fucking annoying quirk I had.
When I play someone clearly above my skill level, let's say 1.5-2x higher arbitrary level, I get bopped but slowly I get used to the pace and my movement matches and I start taking stocks and getting closer and closer games where I start playing really really good even when I still lose most overall. On the flip side, I play some players who are really slow with under/even skill level and I feel and play like shit and the fight feels and looks like a slog.

On the bright side, I think Neutral and I think definitely recovery has been getting better.
Movement took a big hit from going from Dualshock3/4s to Gamecube Adapter, almost no crossover, the deadzone's and stick tension are insanely different now that I have it, when first touching it dashdancing with Roy felt like Shiek at first, and my wavelanding and l cancelling are off due to trigger tension / analog to digital threshold difference. Improvement is slowly getting better though, and I can definitely do instant uair shffls easier with adapter then dualshocks.
 
Move over Dreamhack Winter, The Smash Summit now has the largest singles prize pool of all time for Melee!

I wonder if it can pass $35000 and beat MLG Dallas 2010 for the overall Smash title
 
Practice night. Going to try to get on a Melee setup this time instead of PM, since that's my main game. Planning to focus on edgeguarding specifically, but I guess it depends on who I end up playing and what kind of opportunities I get. I'm really happy with where my punish game is going, even against the top players in the region I should be able to convert some hits/grabs into edgeguard attempts - I must have whiffed 4 or 5 in my set against Moogle on Saturday by being too aggressive.
 
Welp, our biweeklies venue is going out of business.
I don't know how many more sessions we'll get to have, and I need to think of a new venue sometime soon.

This is a pretty huge bummer.
 
LucidMomentum said:
Welp, our biweeklies venue is going out of business.
I don't know how many more sessions we'll get to have, and I need to think of a new venue sometime soon.

This is a pretty huge bummer.
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Ouch, that's unfortunate.

Our Melee Weeklies happen on campus and we get between 80-120 people every Friday. Universities seem to be pretty lenient.
 
theprodigy said:
whoa that's a lot compared to where I am

which campus is this?
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Arizona State University.

The first weekly of the semester had like 115 people. I didn't go to it and neither did a lot of the Smashers I know. Melee in Arizona is still very big, haha. According to the people that were there, over half the people that showed up were new to the scene.
 
Daouzin said:
Ouch, that's unfortunate.

Our Melee Weeklies happen on campus and we get between 80-120 people every Friday. Universities seem to be pretty lenient.
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Yeah most of us have graduated and the Campus Gamers club could care less about tournaments, which is kind of a bummer.

For now I'll focus on running the Extra Life tourneys (because no one else will do them, or do them well at least), and we'll probably go back to someone's garage until we find a new venue.

I wish we could get 80-100 people though, it's usually 15-20 and then maybe 30-40 for Extra Life each year.
 
LucidMomentum said:
Yeah most of us have graduated and the Campus Gamers club could care less about tournaments, which is kind of a bummer.
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That's a bummer. If anyone goes to your events and still goes to school you should see if they would be interested in reaching out to their campus. Our ASU Smashers have no relation ASU's gaming group/club.
 
theprodigy said:
Melee singles at Genesis 3 crossed 1000 entrants! damn
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I believe it will easily be 1,600+. Like over half of AZ still hasn't registered, so I imagine this is true for other regions too. I won't be surprised if it's the 2nd biggest tournament, with Melee EVO 2015 being the first.

On a random note: I played Rivals of Aether last night and It's ridiculously awesome.

Now Smash 4 is 4th on my 'best Smash' game list, haha. To be fair though, Melee is GOAT, PM is basically Melee and RoA is just really really good. Smash 4 is amazing, but just can't compete with those 3 in terms of 'feel.'
 
Getting back into the groove bit by bit now that I got a GC controller and new Netplay actually lets my computer run consistently at 60fps. Movement still not where it used to be, prolly like 70-80% where I was at, but I'm getting there. Instant SFFL aerials are way more consistent than with Dualshock controllers, prolly cause of stick deadzone stuff, but slowly being able to rack up more and more damage and hopefully soon turns into consistent combos->kills/edgeguard. Actually faced a dude who goes to my regions locals, still kinda getting semi dumped on, but holding my own way more than I thought.

Things to work on: Neutral Neutral Neutral, DI, Dealing with Projectile chars.

Daouzin said:
Now Smash 4 is 4th on my 'best Smash' game list, haha. To be fair though, Melee is GOAT, PM is basically Melee and RoA is just really really good. Smash 4 is amazing, but just can't compete with those 3 in terms of 'feel.'
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For me PM would be at the top but it's just on the cusp slightly under Melee. The big thing I dislike in my eyes is the state of recoveries which are still way too good even after nerfs imo. So many recoveries in the game either have the absolute vertical power to bypass, the active damage/hover frames to hit anyone on edge, or quick enough recovery to be a semi-non factor. And I know blahblahblah, I ain't that good, blahblahblah that's like just your opinion man, but I tend to try to look at things in the endgame and even at the highest PM level too many times the recoveries allow such easy free resets to the point where even the most capable players give the ledge. One of my #1 favorite things about melee IS the fight for the ledge and edgeguarding which makes things like the ROM moment so insane, and in PM it's almost gone in comparison. That said, just have that and Light Shielding, and a little more balance tweaks and I think it might be the top.
 
Man I wish I could netplay, I tried but my internet sucks too bad, every game either desynced or was impossibly laggy.

Then again I live in one of the most active regions so I have no reason to complain or even use netplay much.
 
xezuru said:
For me PM would be at the top but it's just on the cusp slightly under Melee. The big thing I dislike in my eyes is the state of recoveries which are still way too good even after nerfs imo. So many recoveries in the game either have the absolute vertical power to bypass, the active damage/hover frames to hit anyone on edge, or quick enough recovery to be a semi-non factor. And I know blahblahblah, I ain't that good, blahblahblah that's like just your opinion man, but I tend to try to look at things in the endgame and even at the highest PM level too many times the recoveries allow such easy free resets to the point where even the most capable players give the ledge. One of my #1 favorite things about melee IS the fight for the ledge and edgeguarding which makes things like the ROM moment so insane, and in PM it's almost gone in comparison. That said, just have that and Light Shielding, and a little more balance tweaks and I think it might be the top.
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My issue with PM is definitely the strength of recoveries, but that lack of polish, due to the nature of it's creation. There are a lot of moments while I play where things don't come out or things get buffered in a weird way or the mechanics are just slightly off that something unexplainable happens. I call it "jank," and PM right now just has too much jank.

I also think the PM devs prefer a certain style of play that keep the game from being as balanced as it could be. Bowser gets nerfed in like every update lol.

Personally I think the PM Devs should finalize their game and then let people evolve the meta. It's just a hard game to take seriously with update after update. If the PM devs weren't so connected to the Smash community I would feel differently, but I know a lot of backroom Smash boards members and they all talked about not using their characters a lot on stream to AVOID nerfs (In early PM days). That just tells me there isn't enough distance between the community and the devs. I like how closely knit it is, but that's just too close.
 
Daouzin said:
My issue with PM is definitely the strength of recoveries, but that lack of polish, due to the nature of it's creation. There are a lot of moments while I play where things don't come out or things get buffered in a weird way or the mechanics are just slightly off that something unexplainable happens. I call it "jank," and PM right now just has too much jank.

I also think the PM devs prefer a certain style of play that keep the game from being as balanced as it could be. Bowser gets nerfed in like every update lol.

Personally I think the PM Devs should finalize their game and then let people evolve the meta. It's just a hard game to take seriously with update after update. If the PM devs weren't so connected to the Smash community I would feel differently, but I know a lot of backroom Smash boards members and they all talked about not using their characters a lot on stream to AVOID nerfs (In early PM days). That just tells me there isn't enough distance between the community and the devs. I like how closely knit it is, but that's just too close.
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Funny, I love PM for the exact same reasons. I love the jank, I love the constant updates, and I love the closeness the devs have, compared to say Sakurai being afraid of those who wavedash.

But I totally understand where you're coming from :p "The M stands for recovery" is a common line among friends.

So, after reeling from the loss of our main venue, we decided to take a week off, make the next Biweekly our yearly gaming fundraiser on campus, and then we'll be working out of somebodies garage / backyard until we find a new place.

I have vids from our first couple of meetups a decade ago, and we're not giving up just because we lost our newest venue.
 
Theres something weird about momentum for me in smash vs traditional fgs. In smash the longer I play the better i play. In fgs I somehow get worse lol. I guess i lose focus or something.

I was playing amazing today in the sfv beta, but somehow, hours later, my execution and neutral went to crap. Frustrating.
 
Daouzin said:
That just tells me there isn't enough distance between the community and the devs. I like how closely knit it is, but that's just too close.
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I mean, I don't think in this case, that it's avoidable but I really do see it. I think the examples that get me the hardest is Zeldahime pretty much the only person optimizing zelda at the time, only to be singled out to be one of the bigger instances of crushing the character design to rebuild a different character just because of one person. As a Roy fan, this similarly happened to Roy and Sethlon, Roy is still okay but they pretty much destroyed his already bad recovery options/ledgedash, and lost the consistent comboability he used to have. Obviously Sethlon has been doing his own thing in general but what I get from so many comments of his is that he's tired of the state they planted Roy and the game in and ultimately lost interest in PM.

In these cases, both happened to be PMBR at the time, and both were the only ones getting results albeit very high top 8 capability at the things they entered in. Now, I do think this game still has many upon many balance decisions and nerfs to go, but the PM dev's habitual action of panic react over-nerfing characters is so zzz.
 
Twitter @Genesis_Smash said:
Officially reached 1000 entrants for Melee singles!

WiiU Singles almost at 500, and SSB64 closing in on 100!
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xezuru said:
I mean, I don't think in this case, that it's avoidable but I really do see it.
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Yeah, I'm not sure it's avoidable either which is why I personally can't take the game too seriously, but I respect the opinion that it's the best Smash game. I totally get why, just not for me.
 
Smash the record's reverse-mains mini bracket is hilarious. Icebox vs Nintenpuff cracked me up. It's a shame that no rests or wobbles were thrown around.

HugS is probably screwed fighting nintendude in losers though. I think nintendude actually plays samus sometimes.

Also poor sfat, westballz actually knows how to fox kind of, I think.

EDIT: well i underestimated sfat's falco.
 
fredrancour said:
Smash the record's reverse-mains mini bracket is hilarious. Icebox vs Nintenpuff cracked me up. It's a shame that no rests or wobbles were thrown around.

HugS is probably screwed fighting nintendude in losers though. I think nintendude actually plays samus sometimes.

Also poor sfat, westballz actually knows how to fox kind of, I think.
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Yeah, I'm watching this right now too. I wasn't sure if I was gonna watch it, but Hungrybox playing Ice Climbers is just too funny. So I was immediately sold on the idea, haha.
 
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