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[boredandlazy]

The Xbox One has been in the same place in relation to the ps4 this whole time. Just barely stopping a 2 to 1 ratio. The numbers on both sides are bigger, but the ration is similar to 14. In other words, the Xbox One hasnt lost any ground ratio wise. While also selling around twenty mill. Thats not winning, but its impressive given what the Xbox one went through.

If Kinect and ONLY kinect, was the only thing they did not reverse on the ps2 would likely be 3 to 1 by now. Anything more than that and it would likely not have reached twenty until a few years from now.

Interpreting those estimates the way you have takes a very, very special mindset. For someone to warp maintaining a losing ratio into 'not losing ground' is just... I just don't have words for it.

depends on what sources you believe, looking it up gives mixed results. Some say it was 14 sold and 15 shipped.

Doesnt really change much though.

Well that's a potential 6-7% difference in sales. So it's a rather large discrepancy.

 

[Primethius]

The Xbox One has been in the same place in relation to the ps4 this whole time. Just barely stopping a 2 to 1 ratio. The numbers on both sides are bigger, but the ration is similar to 14. In other words, the Xbox One hasnt lost any ground ratio wise. While also selling around twenty mill. Thats not winning, but its impressive given what the Xbox one went through.

If Kinect and ONLY kinect, was the only thing they did not reverse on the ps2 would likely be 3 to 1 by now. Anything more than that and it would likely not have reached twenty until a few years from now.

I see. I misunderstood what you were attempting to say. My apologies.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

Interpreting those estimates the way you have takes a very, very special mindset. For someone to warp maintaining a losing ratio into 'not losing ground' is just... I just don't have words for it.



Well that's a potential 6-7% difference in sales. So it's a rather large discrepancy.

For the number in this thread thats in the title the difference means zero.

Also I didnt warp anything, this isnt warz. I said they were losing. But the general perception was they were getting destroyed, but they instead are selling around twenty million and keeping the same ratio.

Look at what everyones been saying for months and all the desperation moves, you never would have expected anything like that if taken at face value. So yes, in a limited form its impressive.

 

[Elandyll]

For the number in this thread thats in the title the difference means zero.

Also I didnt warp anything, this isnt warz. I said they were losing. But the general perception was they were getting destroyed, but they instead are selling around twenty million and keeping the same ratio.

Look at what everyones been saying for months and all the desperation moves, you never would have expected anything like that if taken at face value. So yes, in a limited form its impressive.

I'm not sure how to tell you that, but if the ratio persists (let alone gets worse), you are looking at a 100m vs 50m end of gen difference.

The 360 probably is at 90m at end of life.

There's no good way to spin that (if that happens), but I'm sure they'll try

Now, it's still plenty to remain relevant and perhaps give it another go, but when looking at opportunities squandered instead of building on the 360 success...

 

[The Artisan]

I think it's easier to make a decision to buy the best console technology can offer than buying a console that is sitting on a shelf right next to a more powerful console.

you're saying based off the fact that when 360 came out it was pretty advanced technology right?

as compared to this gen with Ps4/xbone constantly being written off as underpowered

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

I'm not sure how to tell you that, but if the ratio persists (let alone gets worse), you are looking at a 100m vs 50m end of gen difference.

The 360 probably is at 90m at end of life.

There's no good way to spin that (if that happens), but I'm sure they'll try

Now, it's still plenty to remain relevant and perhaps give it another go, but when looking at opportunities squandered instead of building on the 360 success...

Your thinking far ahead to numbers the ps4 likely wont get to without something like Kinect too boost its sales.

But the point is for now its interesting they are still doing as well as they are. Imagine if Kinect and only that was still mandatory I wonder if it would be past 12 milluon.

 

[onQ123]

you're saying based off the fact that when 360 came out it was pretty advanced technology right?

as compared to this gen with Ps4/xbone constantly being written off as underpowered

I think he is saying it as the Xbox 360 was the most powerful console when it was released & had a year by it's self as the only next gen console on the market vs Xbox One being next to the PS4 & having no clear advantages.


Kinect was Xbox One's only real advantage but it also gave them the disadvantage of being $100 more than the PS4 & it used up gaming resources that was already behind it's competition.

They talked about "Power of The Cloud" & number of transistors to create a false sense of a power advantage when they knew that any console, tablet , phone or PC could also use the cloud just the same as the Xbox One could.

I actually like what Microsoft was going for but the fact is they was going to make gamers second class citizens on a brand name that was built on gamers. The truth is Nintendo is the only one that didn't have this agenda

 

[bishoptl]

Odd skepticism in this board.

Back several months the Xbox One was estimated to be around 15 million sold. Lets look at what comprised those numbers.

What? When? That wasn't sold through to consumers.

 

[aaronwt]

well, I was genuinely asking. I wasn't trying to make a statement or anything. Back in the day when people bragged about xbl on 360 my counterargument always was yeah xbl is better but is it a service that's $50 better than what psn offers?

Did it ever cost that much? I've been on XBL since 2005 and never paid that much. Usually under $25 a year. And most recently $28 a year for the next three years.

Not sure what I paid for PSN. I only joined it when I got my PS4 in 2013 and got three years.(I used my PS3 for playing BDs from 2006 to 2011 so I didn't need PSN)

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

What? When? That wasn't sold through to consumers.

Doesnt change the current numbers either way. It still goes up to 18 at 14 million as well.

 

[David Ricardo]

you're saying based off the fact that when 360 came out it was pretty advanced technology right?

as compared to this gen with Ps4/xbone constantly being written off as underpowered

Nope, I'm saying based off the fact that X360 was the most powerful console existing when it launched. You buy that, you get the best console money can get. You want a good console, there you have it. It's the best. Nothing to think about.

Even after PS3 came out, lots of multiplatform games looked better on 360. So you could still make a case for buying it based on performance.

Buying an XBO is tougher because you know there is another console that runs the games better for the same price.
You need some really strong factors to go with XBO this time.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

I think he is saying it as the Xbox 360 was the most powerful console when it was released & had a year by it's self as the only next gen console on the market vs Xbox One being next to the PS4 & having no clear advantages.


Kinect was Xbox One's only real advantage but it also gave them the disadvantage of being $100 more than the PS4 & it used up gaming resources that was already behind it's competition.

They talked about "Power of The Cloud" & number of transistors to create a false sense of a power advantage when they knew that any console, tablet , phone or PC could also use the cloud just the same as the Xbox One could.

I actually like what Microsoft was going for but the fact is they was going to make gamers second class citizens on a brand name that was built on gamers. The truth is Nintendo is the only one that didn't have this agenda

The cloud message was clear, I have no idea why guys keep acting like they were falsely using it just like i dont get why anyone thinks that had any impact regardless. The advantages they stated for the cloud were real, it was interpreted by boards as power, stuff like in Forza 5 was legit.

But anyway, even cheaper kinect wouldnt help, Kinect was never really an advantage, the fad was over.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

Nope, I'm saying based off the fact that X360 was the most powerful console existing when it launched. You buy that, you get the best console money can get. You want a good console, there you have it. It's the best. Nothing to think about.

Even after PS3 came out, lots of multiplatform games looked better on 360. So you could still make a case for buying it based on performance.

Buying an XBO is tougher because you know there is another console that runs the games better for the same price.
You need some really strong factors to go with XBO this time.

Your reasoning for power as a primary reason why Xbox one is losing isnt really valid. Situation wouldnt be that different if their power was identical because the other factors would have still happened.

 

[aaronwt]

The cloud message was clear, I have no idea why guys keep acting like they were falsely using it just like i dont get why anyone thinks that had any impact regardless. The advantages they stated for the cloud were real, it was interpreted by boards as power, stuff like in Forza 5 was legit.

But anyway, even cheaper kinect wouldnt help, Kinect was never really an advantage, the fad was over.

I couldn't imagine using my Xbox Ones without Kinect. I only wish I could use my PS4 camera the same way and be just as reliable.

 

[benny_a]

The cloud message was clear, I have no idea why guys keep acting like they were falsely using it just like i dont get why anyone thinks that had any impact regardless. The advantages they stated for the cloud were real, it was interpreted by boards as power, stuff like in Forza 5 was legit.

Sorry, you said it was very clear. Can you just shortly summarize the 40x as powerful as the 360 when connected to the Internet and 10x without that connection in other terms, because I didn't get that at the time.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I couldn't imagine using my Xbox Ones without Kinect. I only wish I could use my PS4 camera the same way and be just as reliable.

You can use the microphone for voice commands. Better than that, you can use ANY mic, including ones you connect to the controller. It's surprisingly accurate, and you can even abbreviate game names and it still recognizes them.
Do you have your PS camera's mic turned off?

 

[David Ricardo]

Your reasoning for power as a primary reason why Xbox one is losing isnt really valid. Situation wouldnt be that different if their power was identical because the other factors would have still happened.

I don't think power is the primary reason. I think it's a very important factor that can't be overlooked.

If their power was identical, Microsoft would still be losing in sales in Europe and Japan, but for sure they would be winning in the US.

 

[...Scatter...]

Interpreting those estimates the way you have takes a very, very special mindset. For someone to warp maintaining a losing ratio into 'not losing ground' is just... I just don't have words for it.



Well that's a potential 6-7% difference in sales. So it's a rather large discrepancy.

Why does it bother you so much? You want the Xbox One to be further behind? I don't get it. It's a good system. PS4 won, we all know that. I want the XBO to do well too. I want MS to build another one.

 

[...Scatter...]

The cloud message was clear, I have no idea why guys keep acting like they were falsely using it just like i dont get why anyone thinks that had any impact regardless. The advantages they stated for the cloud were real, it was interpreted by boards as power, stuff like in Forza 5 was legit.

But anyway, even cheaper kinect wouldnt help, Kinect was never really an advantage, the fad was over.

Nah bruh. Cloud message was NOT clear. It was clearly trying to mitigate the power PR disaster.

 

[onQ123]

The cloud message was clear, I have no idea why guys keep acting like they were falsely using it just like i dont get why anyone thinks that had any impact regardless. The advantages they stated for the cloud were real, it was interpreted by boards as power, stuff like in Forza 5 was legit.

But anyway, even cheaper kinect wouldnt help, Kinect was never really an advantage, the fad was over.

Was it really clear? I remember them saying that with the Cloud Xbox One was like 30X more powerful than the Xbox 360.

I can't find the chart or whatever it was they had but they also showed it in Japan

.

 

[onQ123]

Sorry, you said it was very clear. Can you just shortly summarize the 40x as powerful as the 360 when connected to the Internet and 10x without that connection in other terms, because I didn't get that at the time.

I knew I wasn't seeing things.

 

[bishoptl]

Sorry, you said it was very clear. Can you just shortly summarize the 40x as powerful as the 360 when connected to the Internet and 10x without that connection in other terms, because I didn't get that at the time.

I would also like to hear this.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

I would also like to hear this.

depends on what you mean by power. Graphics or technical overall.

something like what they are doing with Crackdown along with the hardware is easily over forty times more powerful overall. Graphically no.

But i do not personally recall anything oither than something like physics and the like being mentioned about the cloud. But if anyone had some info I may have missed I may be mistaken.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

depends on what you mean by power. Graphics or technical overall.

something like what they are doing with Crackdown along with the hardware is easily over forty times more powerful overall. Graphically no.

But i do not personally recall anything oither than something like physics and the like being mentioned about the cloud. But if anyone had some info I may have missed I may be mistaken.

That's some mighty fast backpedaling there, pilgrim!

"The cloud message was very clear"
5 minutes and 1 mod message later
"I don't personally recall... It depends on what you mean... I could have missed it...

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

I don't think power is the primary reason. I think it's a very important factor that can't be overlooked.

If their power was identical, Microsoft would still be losing in sales in Europe and Japan, but for sure they would be winning in the US.

No it wouldnt the U.S. was the blulk of where the confusion and the backlash was from. Even now there are guys thinking there are 24 hour check ins, and the Xbox cant play used games. The highly viewed ps4 used game counter video is primarily American. Almost everything they backtracked on got them hurt.

Imagine if they didnt do that, then maybe you would have a case given they still sold over 3 million units by the end of the year just coming out of that train wreck.

 

[nib95]

Nah bruh. Cloud message was NOT clear. It was clearly trying to mitigate the power PR disaster.

Cloud messaging is still not clear, and no product has even been released that shows any tangible or notable performance benefit from its usage, despite being more than two years since the console released. Crackdown will pretty much be the first major and proper example.

I don't think even Microsoft is particularly clear on its performance benefits, at least from a messaging perspective, since they've advertised Cloud making the Xbox One 4x, 6-13x, and even 20x more powerful. The number seems to change all the time. Perhaps they just pull one out of a hat?

Hell, even the performance difference between the Xbox One and 360 seemed to constantly change in Microsoft's messaging.

Xbox One is 8x...no, 10x/40x w/cloud...wait, its 3x more power than the 360! Maybe?

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

That's some mighty fast backpedaling there, pilgrim!

"The cloud message was very clear"
5 minutes and 1 mod message later
"I don't personally recall... It depends on what you mean... I could have missed it...

What backpedalling. The message was clear, they never said graphics, the only reason why i even mentioned it is that someone else did. Scatter to be specific. It seemed obvious that they werent talking about graphic poiwer since they didnt to my recollection ever said anything about graphics, but did mention physics and drivatars.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

What backpedalling. The message was clear, they never said graphics, the only reason why i even mentioned it is that someone else did. Scatter to be specific. It seemed obvious that they werent talking about graphic poiwer since they didnt to my recollection ever said anything about graphics, but did mention physics and drivatars.

They mentioned 'power' during the time power was being spoken of in terms of graphics. They knew damn well what they were doing. They even mentioned that if cloud can take some of the workload off of physics and AI it would leave more power for the graphics. If that statement wasn't intentionally guiding people into thinking cloud would improve graphics I don't know what is.

Phil Harrison:

It’s also about cloud processing and AI. This is where some of the computational effort of a game can be offloaded to the dedicated CPUs on the cloud, to make your game experience even better, better graphics, better lighting, better physics.

This is an example of where we think the the cloud is going to push the next generation of game development in new and creative ways, that will make the experience even more better.

 

[benny_a]

now that nib95 posted the ultimate contradiction of that the messaging was "clear" and they never meant power or graphics there are basically two options left:
(One can throw in some "600% more AI capability" by Turn 10 if one feels inclined.)

Acknowledge that the messaging wasn't clear and MS fucked up and this wasn't a shared message board hallucination.

Cast into question the exclusive first-look at Wired and Xbox Australia spokespeople.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

Nah bruh. Cloud message was NOT clear. It was clearly trying to mitigate the power PR disaster.

Well for one were they not talking about the cloud before the launch.

And second, I may be wrong, but i remember physics and Drivatars being mentioned for power not graphics. The cloud seemed to be focusing more toward the amount of zombies on screen in dr3 type power and not say Crysis type power.

If they did mention graphics well, ok then thats another issue entirely.

 

[nib95]

What backpedalling. The message was clear, they never said graphics, the only reason why i even mentioned it is that someone else did. Scatter to be specific. It seemed obvious that they werent talking about graphic poiwer since they didnt to my recollection ever said anything about graphics, but did mention physics and drivatars.

They didn't?

It’s also about cloud processing and AI. This is where some of the computational effort of a game can be offloaded to the dedicated CPUs on the cloud, to make your game experience even better, better graphics, better lighting, better physics.

 

[Ricky_R]

They didn't?

Yeah, but Phil was a double agent. That doesn't count.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

They mentioned 'power' during the time power was being spoken of in terms of graphics. They knew damn well what they were doing. They even mentioned that if cloud can take some of the workload off of physics and AI it would leave more power for the graphics. If that statement wasn't intentionally guiding people into thinking cloud would improve graphics I don't know what is.

Yes but then isn't that the same discussion where they threw in drivatars though, I mean they always talked like it was performance and such then actual 523 shaded of green on a blade of grass.

f course again, if that is what they meant, then wll, thats BS. But

 

[Dyson Industries]

Very clear, yes Tivor. Clear as mud.

Desperate Microsoft was flailing at anything they could to obfuscate the power gap between PS4 and the Xbone. And believe you me that included graphics, chum.

They were still trying to push this bollocks in regards to graphic improvements, by the way - and had to use a PC for the demo since the Xbone wasn't up to it.

Did Penello ever show his face around here again post-launch?

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

They didn't?

Issue with that statement is he is talking performance graphically and not actual eye candy. I mean I can easily see the cloud throwing in some extra lighting and improving framerates among other things. I mean thats basically what Crackdown is doing.

But I will concede it was not clear. But I still dont think it was TOO confusing.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Yes but then isn't that the same discussion where they threw in drivatars though, I mean they always talked like it was performance and such then actual 523 shaded of green on a blade of grass.

f course again, if that is what they meant, then wll, thats BS. But

I'm just pointing out why people were talking about cloud and graphics. Here's another article, and there were plenty of others with similar quotes:

Microsoft explains the Xbox One's cloud-enhanced graphics

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2039745/microsoft-explains-the-xbox-ones-cloud-enhanced-graphics.html

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

Very clear, yes Tivor. Clear as mud.

Desperate Microsoft was flailing at anything they could to obfuscate the power gap between PS4 and the Xbone. And believe you me that included graphics, chum.

They were still trying to push this bollocks in regards to graphic improvements, by the way - and had to use a PC for the demo since the Xbone wasn't up to it.

Did Penello ever show his face around here again post-launch?

Cloud talk was before launch. Has nothing to do with ps4 power. imo.

The ps4 counter was something about a chip in the consoles or something not the cloud if I recall. Remember lots of boards talking about secret sauce.

 

[bishoptl]

Issue with that statement is he is talking performance graphically and not actual eye candy.

...what?

Cloud talk was before launch. Has nothing to do with ps4 power. imo.

.........................what?

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

Anyway whats done is done. The only way to imrove the graphics would be an expensive revision which they wont do. At least its closer to the ps4 than the Wii U.

 

[onQ123]

By the way Kinect isn't over ,MS just over engineered their camera for multimedia & making the Xbox One the iPad of the living room. At $399 with a smaller camera Xbox One with Kinect could have been the water cooler that they wanted it to be lol.
Smaller Xbox One with new smaller Kinect at a good price would make it easier for the casual gamer / multimedia crowd to pick the Xbox One up over the PS4 around the holidays.
Right now PlayStation Camera is enjoying the success that Kinect 2.0 should have. people love it just for the little things like doing live shows & video overlay when game streaming. Xbox One should not be missing out on the video overlay while game streaming right now.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

...what?


.........................what?

This link shows google search results showing artciles about the cloud before botht he Xbox and Sony launches https://www.google.com/search?q=clo...s=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/2012,cd_max:11/1/2013&tbm=

So I wouldnt say the cloud talk was used to make excuses for the graphical gap. imo.

 

[boredandlazy]

Why does it bother you so much?

It doesn't. What I was commenting on was his very warped interpretation of the estimates, not the statistics themselves.

You want the Xbox One to be further behind? I don't get it. It's a good system. PS4 won, we all know that. I want the XBO to do well too. I want MS to build another one.

Of course you don't get it. Because you've extrapolated that out of thin air.

 

[justsomeguy]

They were still trying to push this bollocks in regards to graphic improvements, by the way - and had to use a PC for the demo since the Xbone wasn't up to it.

Eh, that wasn't bollocks, it was a legit tech demo of some of the stuff behind crackdown, which is coming out this year (altho I wonder if it'll slip to next). Doesn't make the rest of the "powahhh of the cloud" marketing any better but that was a poor example to pick.

Anyway, I'm back outta this thread, which seems to just be rehashing the same tired old anti-xbox anti-ms arguments that we've seen so many times already.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

By the way Kinect isn't over ,MS just over engineered their camera for multimedia & making the Xbox One the iPad of the living room. At $399 with a smaller camera Xbox One with Kinect could have been the water cooler that they wanted it to be lol.
Smaller Xbox One with new smaller Kinect at a good price would make it easier for the casual gamer / multimedia crowd to pick the Xbox One up over the PS4 around the holidays.
Right now PlayStation Camera is enjoying the success that Kinect 2.0 should have. people love it just for the little things like doing live shows & video overlay when game streaming. Xbox One should not be missing out on the video overlay while game streaming right now.

How much has ps eye sold

 

[GribbleGrunger]

This link shows google search results showing artciles about the cloud before botht he Xbox and Sony launches https://www.google.com/search?q=clo...s=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/2012,cd_max:11/1/2013&tbm=

So I wouldnt say the cloud talk was used to make excuses for the graphical gap. imo.

I don't think anyone has said they used it as an excuse. What they did and what I'm seeing people saying is they used it to try and muddy the water and give their fans a reason to question the facts. All it did was perpetuate a discussion that could have ended almost immediately had it not been for the misinformation.

 

[benny_a]

Anyway, I'm back outta this thread, which seems to just be rehashing the same tired old anti-xbox anti-ms arguments that we've seen so many times already.

I wonder why people bring up statements made by Microsoft in 2013 about the infinite power of the cloud.

Surely this is just teh bias anti MS agenda running wild, it can't be the denial by Tivor Tontomo that such statements were ever made.

 

[Tivor Tontomo]

I wonder why people bring up statements made by Microsoft in 2013 about the infinite power of the cloud.

Surely this is just teh bias anti MS agenda running wild, it can't be the denial by Tivor Tontomo that such statements were ever made.

Interesting show me where I denied MS stated anything about the cloud. That seems to have been intentionally thrown out of context with this post and I have no idea why you did that.

My discussion was about whether they meant graphic performance like lighting, shading, and fps or actual hard graphics.

 

[nib95]

Issue with that statement is he is talking performance graphically and not actual eye candy. I mean I can easily see the cloud throwing in some extra lighting and improving framerates among other things. I mean thats basically what Crackdown is doing.

But I will concede it was not clear. But I still dont think it was TOO confusing.

Better lighting is performance is it? Ok.

Crackdown isn't using Cloud for lighting, it's using it for (latency insensitive) physics calculations. Cloud processing can actually be used for certain graphical elements, notably indirect lighting, but it is still expensive and completely financially and logistically out of bounds, at least at present. Hell Nvidia showed off such technology, and in the follow up paper even they concluded cloud computation was not really viable for graphics, latency sensitive rendering (direct illumination, composite, post-processing, shadow map rendering etc). Funnily enough they also concluded it wasn't good for physics, but I guess Sumo Digital disagree, and they have the product to show for it. Then again, I think Microsoft are more focused on the CPU side of things for cloud compute.

Thing is, for Nvidia's Cloud rendering indirect lighting test, each of the servers they used had GeForce Titans in them, which are not only considerably more powerful than the GPU's in these new consoles, but far more expensive too lol.

 

[benny_a]

Interesting show me where I denied MS stated anything about the cloud. That seems to have been intentionally thrown out of context with this post and I have no idea why you did that.

My discussion was about whether they meant graphic performance like lighting, shading, and fps or actual hard graphics.

Dude, I don't know man. You said the messaging was perfectly clear and then nib95 posted like 4 examples and then there was the Turn 10 and none of that is in any way clear.

I also don't know if I'm supposed to categorize you as some Chess grandmaster or a flailing non-swimmer in a swimming pool with the statement "graphic performance like lighting, shading, and fps or actual hard graphics."

 

[Ehker]

Interesting show me where I denied MS stated anything about the cloud. That seems to have been intentionally thrown out of context with this post and I have no idea why you did that.

My discussion was about whether they meant graphic performance like lighting, shading, and fps or actual hard graphics.

You want an example where MS said the cloud would improve lighting?

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...s-more-processing-power-from-cloud-computing/

"One example of that might be lighting," he continued. "Let’s say you’re looking at a forest scene and you need to calculate the light coming through the trees, or you’re going through a battlefield and have very dense volumetric fog that’s hugging the terrain. Those things often involve some complicated up-front calculations when you enter that world, but they don’t necessarily have to be updated every frame. Those are perfect candidates for the console to offload that to the cloud—the cloud can do the heavy lifting, because you’ve got the ability to throw multiple devices at the problem in the cloud."