.........Is this actually the best example since it's a different product? I would think the poster would be more talking about altered dubs/subs in localization.
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Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
.........Is this actually the best example since it's a different product? I would think the poster would be more talking about altered dubs/subs in localization.
Haha, you've got so much more to see (one example being if you're only familiar with Persona and not Shin Megami Tensei).
Little Monser
Banned
To be honest I think everyone just gets too offended easily nowadays over nothing.
But still that drug conversation never needed to be in that game so I'm glad it's out.
Sounded like a tragic mess
But still that drug conversation never needed to be in that game so I'm glad it's out.
Sounded like a tragic mess
Messofanego
Banned
"Well, for the sake of the plot her character is bisexual. Yep, you read that right. Bisexual. Interested in both genders a.k.a NOT a lesbian. Or at least that's what we're told at the beginning of her story. As a matter of fact, as we progress further we find out that she never intended to have serious relationships with women to begin with, despite playing around in the past. She just has an infatuation with cute girls. Soleli likes men. In-game she doesn't even have a lesbian marriage option either. Without spoiling too much, she pretended that she was bisexual to get revenge on her father but ended up regretting it when it became a habit."
This just makes me more confused. She's played around in the past, implying she's had sex with women. So she got drugged to make her be attracted to men even though she's a bisexual (who shouldn't have a problem with being attracted to men) but then she's faking to be a bisexual the whole time? If she's attracted to men, why does she need to be drugged?
"It's also worth noting that after the support quest, Soleli doesn't detest the main character from hiding it from her. In fact, she thanks him because it helped her overcome her predicament."
And she is thankful for non-consensual drugging and visual illusion sexual trickery? How is that not fucked up?
This is true.
Also it might be meant to be funny, but spiking a womans drink that effects her mentally just isnt funny to me regardless of context and I just dont see NA being okay with it.
WrenchNinja
Member
I don't know dude. That sure looks like a dress. And even if it wasnt it's still a far cry from this
What's really not worth defending is this shitty support conversation the topic is about
Well, if only all people don't like to make controversies on just about everything then localization won't be as tricky as it is. It's just the nature of the beast, given that people from different countries have different culture, beliefs, principles and sensibilities.
Localizations happen in literally every single medium because they need to happen. Just think about puns, a writing convention that exists in practically every form of language and in so many things. These are the type of things localizations do.
If you are really worried about playing the original game the way the creator wanted, then you got to learn the original language. Localizations are needed.
Coffee Dog
Banned
For me, I think what makes me interpret the character as heterosexual is that even if you never do this "wacky gay conversion" scene or never learn it exists, she will still fall in love with and marry her male compatriots. I would think it was on a lot shakier ground if, for example, she could only marry the male protagonist (like some characters in awakening) and therefore, this scene was required to get her to be in a relationship with a male character.
Once again, there are degrees to localization. It's not just a black and white localized/not localized. And those degrees are why discussions like this thread (and no doubt the one that NOA had internally) spring up.
E_Darkness
Member
But what about the creepy face rubbing? Please remove the creepy face rubbing.
The controversy existed before Nintendo made it worse with their initial response to the controversy.
They should just have her knowingly take the potion. There's no reason for her to not know about it since she's told about it immediately and it's not used to deceive her. The whole point of spiking is to deceive the person being spiked, but they don't do that so... That's what I mean about it being mitigated. They might as well have not spiked her drink since they don't do anything with the potion that would require spiking a drink. If she got upset about it that wouldn't change this specific situation much. The parallels to date rape are pretty murky since date rape drugs are used to incapacitate women and/or make them do things against their will whereas the potion and situation presented in this dialog doesn't seem to have similar effects. The potion makes her see people as the opposite gender and she is informed of what happened so she is still in control. It's wrong that the situation is forced upon her, but that's as far as that goes. She's informed of the situation before anything happens and it doesn't impair her ability to decide what to do.
Bumbletron
Member
Are you sure? I would reference Leon: The Professional. Had some pretty creepy Lolita-esque vibes in there that were cut for certain versions of the film. Didn't hurt it one bit. This stuff happens in other media all of the time.
And as far as the 'disrespect' of the product goes, there is no way to translate a product from one language to another without either taking liberties with the script and adapting or losing a lot in the translation. Quite honestly, when it comes to the localization of a product, you should be comparing them as separate products rather than the same one, because there is no way in hell you are going to get a script that is 100% identical both in tone and text in another language. Something always changes in translation, and it's not anyone's fault, it is just the nature of the beast.
Crash Station
Member
Eolz
Member
Yeah, let's remove everything! The other supports too!
Part of Nowi's whole gimmick is how uncomfortable she makes some of the adult characters, tbh.
I'm not saying she's not ridiculous, but it's probably notable that her equally-childish-looking daughter dresses and acts much more conservatively.
Just have her be offered first, I agree it wont be a problem if she chooses to have it.
My issue is it doesnt matter if she is omay with it because the fact is even if she was mad she would still be drugged and effected by it.
The decision to not let her choose it is just beyond crazy.
Messofanego
Banned
And now I find out anime fans are into Donald Trump?!
What a weird ass week for anime fanbases!
What a weird ass week for anime fanbases!
EndlessSky
Member
Another big thing localizations need to do that a lot of people don't consider is to figure out what the tone of the material is for each culture. For example, the change this thread is about might have been meant to be seen as funny in Japan, but if that conversation isn't seen as funny in our culture, then the creator's intention is lost in the product and localizations should consider that.
If you've got a half hour to kill, I think the least confusing way to look at the situation is to watch the scene people are going on about, with some basic translation.
Taking liberties is understandable. Changing the content you can access or how the story unfolds is much more thant that.
How are we supposed to keep open minds and understand other cultures if we change the media they produce to suit our own? I thought people wanted diversity in games, but in the end the people asking for it are the first to applaud changes to make foreign products fall in line with our own. Makes no sense to me.
'Playing around' means flirting essentially. The MC used the drink to have her see him as a woman because she told him in the previous convo she had a hard time being around women without feeling lightheaded. The intention was for her to practice on him, so she could be around women normally.
The idea behind the drink is that it's harmless since she knows about it when he tells her about it, and does nothing besides having her see guys as girls.
To be honest, it's best if you actually read the convo and come to your own conclusion which I would say is the case for everyone rather than going on contextless reports: http://pastebin.com/4AYTY82H
Try every medium. You like joke dubs? You like altered dialogue?
Do you consider Chrono Trigger on the SNES better or worse than the DS remake that's closer to the original script? Or do you consider Chrono Trigger DS too dry and boring?
Bumbletron
Member
The word is "Localization". Making changes to foreign products to become better received and more well marketed is exactly what they are there for. We can have open minds about other cultures and still localize content in this fashion. Media localized for our market becomes, for all intents and purposes, our media. Anything not localized or imported remains wholly a product of one culture.
The42gamer
Banned
The phrase "played around" is fairly broad and doesn't exactly mean sex. In this context the phrase would mean something along the lines of being flirtatious.
At the beginning of her support she says she's bisexual (which we later find out isn't true) so yes she was faking it. Also:
"she pretended that she was bisexual to get revenge on her father but ended up regretting it when it became a habit."
She didn't get drugged to be attracted to men, she was drugged because she finds cute girls distracting. Now that she took a drug that in her eyes switches everyone's genders the main character can help her overcome this setback
Cause she considers her problem a huge setback and wants to get it fixed. The MC used it to help her through it and after she overcame it she felt thankful towards him.
I don't think this whole subplot is written well by any means but at the same time I don't want people to spread misinformation about something that isn't there
Coffee Dog
Banned
I don't think anyone is doubting that localization is necessary; nobody here wants to bother learning japanese.
There are just varying degrees of localization accuracy, and the amount that a product is altered from its original form and original intent while still being considered as conveying those things in an efficient manner is what is up for debate.
That's part of localizations job though, in every field that requires localization in every country. Even Japan doesn't get the same exact literal translations of American movies or games. There are changes.
Clearly this wouldn't be acceptable in 2016 in the USA. However historically, people have done far worse things to same-gender attracted individuals than is suggested in that conversation; even execution is still legal in some countries. "Conversion therapy" is still championed by some people, often to the detriment of those being "treated". Is it offensive for a work of fiction to allude to that?
Nintendo might have removed it because they don't want the controversy but I'm not sure that it HAD to be removed as if something is inherently wrong with the theme. The conversation would affect players' opinions of the characters involved especially since it does not seem to conclude in a way that would be satisfying to some. However, it shouldn't necessarily be interpreted that the Nintendo is condoning "drugging" any more than any other writer is endorsing the actions of their fictional characters. Anyway, I suspect that Nintendo wants the main character to be liked and that's a factor in deciding to change it for the foreign audience.
BTW, it is interesting that murder is handled extremely glibly in many games with very little controversy among gamers in general. You can hack depictions of people apart or reduce heads and arms to churning gore while seldom facing any in-game consequences (you're usually rewarded). Some gamers' reactions to other controversial gameplay or story elements really opens a window to the horror some non-gamers or parents feel when they see what is happening in some games.
Nintendo might have removed it because they don't want the controversy but I'm not sure that it HAD to be removed as if something is inherently wrong with the theme. The conversation would affect players' opinions of the characters involved especially since it does not seem to conclude in a way that would be satisfying to some. However, it shouldn't necessarily be interpreted that the Nintendo is condoning "drugging" any more than any other writer is endorsing the actions of their fictional characters. Anyway, I suspect that Nintendo wants the main character to be liked and that's a factor in deciding to change it for the foreign audience.
BTW, it is interesting that murder is handled extremely glibly in many games with very little controversy among gamers in general. You can hack depictions of people apart or reduce heads and arms to churning gore while seldom facing any in-game consequences (you're usually rewarded). Some gamers' reactions to other controversial gameplay or story elements really opens a window to the horror some non-gamers or parents feel when they see what is happening in some games.
and we have absolutely no clue how they are going to handle this specific scene.
It literally might just change too, "I had a mage cast a funny spell on you" or it could change into something completely asinine and different. We really won't know till the game is out
Bumbletron
Member
I understand that, which is why I said I believe that when you are comparing a localized product to its source material, you would be better suited comparing them as two separate products as opposed to the same one altered. For all intents and purposes they are two separate products. But in order to compare, you need to have the product for a side by side comparison. Right now we have no clue what kind, or even how much localization is going on. It does seem, however, that the amount of localization occurring here is not much different at all from the localization that occurs elsewhere.
Aight, fair enough. I read up on the initial topic, watched that 30 minute video and read that imgur photoset.
I came to the conclusion that if the game came to the west with these support convos, regardless of how good the translation would be, I feel like the context could always be interpreted as a "curing the gay" type of plot regardless of the original intention of the writers.
Instead of making sense of these conversations they definitely are better off scrapping that whole plot alltogether. There'll be always room for controversial interpretation given the context unless they scrap her interest in cute girls or scrap the whole magic powder stuff, which wouldn't do the support subplot any favors, being bad enough as it is overall even without the whole homophobia angle.
...To be perfectly honest, given that the original plot is nothing to write home about, it's not like there is exactly writing genius to retain here anyway. We aren't losing a lot even if they do end up writing a completely new scenario.
I came to the conclusion that if the game came to the west with these support convos, regardless of how good the translation would be, I feel like the context could always be interpreted as a "curing the gay" type of plot regardless of the original intention of the writers.
Instead of making sense of these conversations they definitely are better off scrapping that whole plot alltogether. There'll be always room for controversial interpretation given the context unless they scrap her interest in cute girls or scrap the whole magic powder stuff, which wouldn't do the support subplot any favors, being bad enough as it is overall even without the whole homophobia angle.
...To be perfectly honest, given that the original plot is nothing to write home about, it's not like there is exactly writing genius to retain here anyway. We aren't losing a lot even if they do end up writing a completely new scenario.
Different languages operate differently, that's all well and fine. But changing costumes of plot points has nothing to do with that. Removing or changing that kind of stuff just removes the footprint the original culture has in the game. Removing and changing that kind of stuff makes the game release pointless overseas in a way. I mean, what's the pint of playing foreign games if their foreign nature is softened for no real reason other that "has to be just like the stuff we make here".
CrazedProfessional
Member
I like how Fire Emblem as a series is slowly becoming a Vita game over time.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Yeah, it was stupid and doesn't belong in the game. Maybe they can remove the face rubbing too?
Bumbletron
Member
Because it is a good game. I don't buy jasmine rice because it's foreign to me, I buy it because it tastes good. Same goes for my media: As long as I like it, it doesn't matter where it comes from. If you are buying games because they are foreign simply for the cultural value, I would argue there are much more culturally relevant materials you could be researching.
WrenchNinja
Member
Only in so far as her behavior since she acts like an energetic child. Her making people uncomfortable based off her appearance does not really come up like at all outside of Gaius' support.
http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Nowi/Supports
So unless that's a Japanese only thing, they kind of failed.
Nah is a whole other story since she straight up accuses people like Laurent of being creepy pedos and shit
It's what saved it from disappearing as a franchise unfortunately.
Messofanego
Banned
Maybe Fire Emblem games should have advertised these controversial politics stuff (incest, sexuality) from the start like Witcher 3 did with "religious fanaticism, war crimes, EVEN RACISM" or MGS 5 did with child soldiers so people would know from the start what to expect even if the execution has turned out to be a mess 
I am buying games for cultural value as well as inherent value. Both things are important to me. I don't think it's going to be worse because of this, but it will be much less interesting, and the authorship will be a bit more difficult to discern.
Why is one of her gloves rolled up while the other one isn't? #LegitBothered
After watching that video, the previous explanations do seem rather disingenuous. She basically gets hot and bothered by all the honeys on the battlefield, and then can't perform her duties. She sees this as a problem, not because she's attracted to women, but because she can't fight as well. The main character then gives her a magic potion to make her see guys as girls and vice versa, so she can practice talking to Fake Girl Protagonist and thus not be nervous around girls. It works and she continues to murder nameless bandits. Protagonist then asks her to marry him in their next conversation because why not. She accepts because she was enamored with Fake Girl Protagonist, but even as a dude, he's still pretty great.
It's definitely a WEIRD plotline, but it's a far cry from "The protagonist uses a date rape drug to cure another's homosexuality." It never says that Soliel DOESN'T like guys, nor is it implied that she stops liking girls even after she agrees to marry the male protag. The secret potion drink is a bit offputting for sure, but the guy in the video makes a good point in that if it was just a Harry Potter-ass spell, no one would care. Hell those Harry Potter spells are pretty creepy if you think about it.
Obscura: Causes a blindfold to appear over the victim's eyes, obstructing his/her view of their surroundings.
Silencio: Silences something immediately
Um, they don't learn this stuff in class right?
Nah, proper advertising did. Besides, most of the people who picked up the series with Awakening like the ability to ship characters, not whatever creepy shit you think they like, lol.
You cannot do as well as Awakening and Fates have done sales-wise just by appealing to otaku. They're simply not a significant enough market for that.
FantasticMrSnake
Member
Man, did FE writing get worse and worse. Which it's kinda an accomplishment, given the quality of the original games storyline and then Awakening.
This said, I don't think they should have remove it. I think the author original intent should have been kept, even if stupid. Laugh and criticize it rather than straight remove it.
This said, I don't think they should have remove it. I think the author original intent should have been kept, even if stupid. Laugh and criticize it rather than straight remove it.
Eolz
Member
You're delusional if you think advertising alone saved this franchise.
" eat your hamburger Appollo "
" eat your hamburger Appollo "
I actually think it would be best to wait and see what's actually done on the localization first. Despite the term 'removed' being used, it would still mean they have to write a completely different convo in that case.
Bumbletron
Member
Then why not look at it for its value in your culture? Perhaps it could take on a life of its own in a completely new environment. That is what localization teams strive for. Like I said, it'll be a completely new product for a new market, I always enjoy games more if I look at them like that opposed to comparing them to the original version. If you go into it trying to pick apart and compare the localization, it will likely lose a lot of the enjoyment we all want to experience in the game.
It certainly wasn't appealing to "Vita owners" or whatever nonsense.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
NoJ is letting a lot of questionable things fly under their radar. That is one helluva conversion explanation.